TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How are you? [00:00:01]

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

CLIENT: It's Wednesday, right?

THERAPIST: Um-Hmm.

CLIENT: It was a hard day. I had a deadline yesterday, so... and the last couple of days just...

Would it be possible to, like, do couple therapy with you? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What would that look like?

CLIENT: Like we started doing that, so...

THERAPIST: That's true.

CLIENT: I'm sure you could be impartial (ph with Chris); even if you're not, it works for my benefit. (laughs)

THERAPIST: How? How would me not being impartial help you? I'm curious.

CLIENT: Because you'd be partial to me. [00:01:01]

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And that would be great! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Ohhh. What would that look like? What would I do that would show my partiality to you?

CLIENT: Well, you would reprimand (ph? Chris) for... whatever. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Oh!

CLIENT: We could gang up on him.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay! What would I reprimand him for?

CLIENT: I don't know. He's not very "reprimandable" in the sense that no one ever finds anything wrong with him, so they think he's all right. (chuckle) (pause) We understand that because... having to tell someone else, or like maybe like, starting from scratch, it should be a good thing, but then, you know...

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like that's the only reason you'd like... if you saw someone else, I guess they would be less likely to reprimand him or else I could be on your team... [00:02:07]

CLIENT: No, no, no. Really, I was just joking about that, because, you know, I don't find (ph Chris) guilty of much, so... (chuckles). I just thought it would be, I just wondered if it would be possible. Because, the thing you know that, the relationship aspect pretty well, so I just wondered if it would be kind of easier (chuckles) for...everyone. (pause)

THERAPIST: (Chuckles) Well, if this is true, it's just a reverse then, if (ph Chris) is seeing someone individually for six months, would you want to be in couples therapy with that person?

CLIENT: Um... yeah, sure, I mean... [00:03:04]

THERAPIST: Would you?

CLIENT: Yeah, because they would... I would be... challenging, but... well, imagining talking to his friend, say, for example (inaudible 00:03:20) and I dread him, his friend. But I would assume, you know, that guy, he's, you know, and rely on his kind of good judgment and not, you know, lump everything on me. (chuckles) And perhaps that friend has been critical of (ph Chris) as well...which is easier for a therapist to do than a friend, actually, so... (pause)

THERAPIST: So, are you bringing up in a humorous sense, or are you hoping that I would agree to see the two of you? [00:04:07}

CLIENT: No, I'm just wondering. I'm not expecting anything. I just assumed that it would not be possible, but I just kind of... asked, just wondering. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Does it feel, would it feel like less anxiety provoking, is that a piece of it?

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I'm so used to coming here and talking to you and (ph Chris's) also already done it and, so...

THERAPIST: And so talking to someone else, what do you imagine that would feel like?

CLIENT: Like, I mean, it's a complete unknown, right? So... I guess it would be okay, but, you know, still... (chuckles) Something familiar and known is more, kind of, appealing, or you just agree to it more readily, so... (pause)

THERAPIST: And then I can help you to whip him into shape. [00:05:08]

CLIENT: No. (chuckles) He's not, like I said, he's not... he's probably near perfect. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Well, for someone else, I'm sure he's perfect. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, I can give you lots of reasons if you want, well, not lots, but the reason that I don't see people like that, but... You can imagine that makes (ph some 00:05:39) of them, (ph though) why would be a problem?

CLIENT: Yeah. (sighs) Yeah, absolutely. Just wondered. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I mean, for starters, I know your deep ambivalence about him, and the complexity. It's certainly not something I would share with him, because that's something that you've told me in confidence.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But then, so I just sort of monitor myself all the time to make sure I don't share it? There is a lack of freedom on my way to really help the two of you, so I'm sort of protecting. Not that it's a secret, but it's a confidence that you have given to me. So, that's one of the reasons; and our goals are very different. I don't know, you know... I'm here to figure out whether, you know, among other things, whether you want to be with (ph Chris). When I work with a couple, I'm there to help them make their relationship better. It's a very different kind of focus. [00:06:34]

I mean, I'm concerned about each person individually, but I'm more interested in a much more focused goal: How can we help make your relationship better? If during the course of that process, one person decides they don't want to be in the relationship anymore, that's fine; but that's not really my goal, to help them figure that out. You know, I have a much more specific goal.

CLIENT: (pause) Okay. (chuckles) Yeah, it makes sense. (pause) Yeah, I've just been talking to him, but he hasn't agreed to do it yet. Maybe once the semester is going, and he knows the rhythm and stuff, the schedule, so... [00:07:28]

THERAPIST: Do you want to do it? Is it something that you feel would be helpful?

CLIENT: Well, I'm a little apprehensive, because, well, (ph for instance now), it would be, would take (ph Chris's) time, so... I definitely want to relate to him better and kind of, get rid of some of the negativity, but... it's something that I can learn now... [00:08:05]

THERAPIST: Well, it's also complicated because you're not sure, ultimately, this is the right relationship for you.

CLIENT: I just don't know why that is, because, like, on paper it looks perfect. (chuckles) I feel like it's all just in my head that's keeping me from entering into it fully (inaudible), enjoying (ph theirs 00:08:33) (chuckles).

THERAPIST: Well, isn't a relationship all in someone's head? I mean, it's two people's head! It's two different experiences that, hopefully, satisfy each person's experience enough to be together.

CLIENT: It's also life, though, right?

THERAPIST: Sorry?

CLIENT: It's also life.

THERAPIST: I mean, there are no relationship objectively outside of your experience and his experience. That's the relationship. [00:09:02]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, I just don't want to be a relationship with anyone! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Why not?

CLIENT: I don't know... feel scared and stuff. I'll be judged and I won't measure up or... lacking something and, so... (pause 00:09:36-00:10:36]

I mean, it's not like, you know, emotionally or physically or like materially possible to be in any other relationship (chuckles) or any relationship. ... I said any other, because I meant, you know, except for (ph Chris) because... right now, we're like, I either live with my mom or with somebody (inaudible)... (chuckles) [00:11:10]

THERAPIST: That's not true. You also lived on your own.

CLIENT: But I couldn't... so, like, financially that was impossible, so...

THERAPIST: I think that you have a lot more feelings about what goes on between your mothers and you, especially when she asks for money, than we've talked about.

CLIENT: Well, I mean, you know, it's not ideal, but I just don't try to think about it so much, because I can't help it right now. If I had a job, I definitely would think more about it, you know, and...

THERAPIST: Well, not feeling like you have no power to do something about something doesn't mean that you don't have feelings about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And there are always a price that's paid when you push things aside.

CLIENT: Yeah, true. (pause) What do you mean? [00:12:04]

THERAPIST: First of all, there's a lot of energy expended, even if you're not aware of expending that energy. (pause) In general, I feel that pushing feelings away always comes at a price.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, that's probably... that's true for, like, stuff that's happened in the past, like in my childhood and stuff. It's like a huge backlog of feelings. (chuckles) Like, you talk about feelings right now, I'm talking about feelings ten years ago (chuckles). This feeling, probably I'll feel, you know, ten years later. So like, I guess I don't worry about it right now. (chuckles) Maybe I won't have to worry about it at all if, you know, if I'm still able to make something of my life, despite all these constraints, (chuckles) you know. [00:13:10]

THERAPIST: Why don't you want to think about it?

CLIENT: Because I can't help it. If I sit and think about it... but, you know, I feel mad inside and just waste time. (pause)

THERAPIST: I think it sounds like being in a war.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, like, when you're in a war, you're in the trenches, right? I mean, you probably have a lot of feelings like fear and anger and despair but you have to (ph spite) the war of what are you going to do about it? That's sort of what came... it's like I'm trying to think about a situation where you have a lot of feelings, but you have no choice and that's what came to my mind.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Quite dramatic! (chuckles) (pause) Well, what would be the ideal situation, according to you? [00:14:29]

THERAPIST: Ideal? I'm not sure I understand ideal.

CLIENT: Like, you know, I expect the feeling of feelings, or like not being at war, not being in the trenches, like how could I make that happen in this situation?

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, to start with, by trying, by talking about some of the things you are feeling about it.

CLIENT: What I said, like Monday, I don't accept it, and I think of it as buying my freedom, so (chuckles).

THERAPIST: That's your thoughts.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that your feelings? [00:15:01]

CLIENT: Well, you know... I feel... a whole bunch of things I feel. You know, sad that I can't do more, you know, that we're not living together; concerned that she's not sad and... (pause) I feel bad for her, that she has to... you know, look to me for money and (inaudible at 00:15:45) courage... could rely on yourself if there's, even if she is very smart and if only she had the right kind of opportunities, she would be, she would have, you know... achieved something (ph conventional) (inaudible at 00:16:04) (pause)

I mean, earlier, I would feel burdened, like... "Oh why do I have to ever think of only myself as, kind of, having problems?" But I have, kind of, my eyes have opened and I see, so... like, I see that other people are also in the trenches, you know, they also have their little wars. (ph Chris's) mom, even though, you know she's married and has her husband and has never... I used to feel sorry for them, in their relation... does she never feel a single day in her life and her husband's always had the job, provided for her. But even she has her (ph going back to the Philippines) and you know, she's always feeling inadequate and not, like she hasn't achieved anything at all, it's like a daily thing with her. She's bitter, and sometimes mean...I've shouted (ph her), I've shouted at her (chuckles). Okay thanks. [00:17:35]

THERAPIST: What have you shouted at her about?

CLIENT: Well, she can be really, really mean to us, like really nasty. And I just can't take it. (chuckles) Whenever, you know, with them, so... And he just sits meekly and takes it and I'm like, "No, that's not how it's done." (chuckles) And they're okay with it, they're you know, I don't need to shout at them at all. That's just for my sake I shout. You know, other people have other things. People who I think are so free wherever... you know, like (ph arguing). It's not hard for me to be critical of him, but, you know, I'm trying now as well. He (ph sends) when (ph you want him to 00:18:29... but you're... maybe if there is dating night, it doesn't depend on him as much as in my case, but, still, you know... he wants to make (ph film, then I'm, then he's going at full stop) and... As far as I can see, there is no (ph film) happening in the near future. ...never (inaudible), you know, then that's it. (laughs)

THERAPIST: So in sticking up for (ph Chris's) father, you must feel somehow he's not able to stick up for himself. [00:19:11]

CLIENT: No, I just... it's like, his mom is a bully and I'm also a bully, like, so I kind of, don't like her bullying. I just don't like the nastiness; I just don't like the crabbiness that makes everything yucky. And it's like, you know, flash from my childhood and I don't want to be in that place at all, and I don't want anyone else to be in that place. It's like a very visceral reaction, and it's like "Do something about it, right then and there." (pause) (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, I guess... I know it's more complicated than this, but if you can be bullying, if you see her as a bully, then... isn't it okay if she bullies? [00:20:03]

CLIENT: No, because I'm a nice bully! (laughs)

THERAPIST: I see. And she's a mean bully?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What makes you a nice bully?

CLIENT: Um... if ultimately I love the person I'm bullying. (laughs) I know the big picture, and I can see it and...

THERAPIST: And she doesn't love her husband?

CLIENT: Maybe she does, but she's very mean about it. Yeah, she has very different ways of showing love, I guess. You know, a different generation would, so... (pause) I guess I also am starting to feel bad for her, but... she wanted to do this and that and the other, but couldn't for various reasons, so... You know, at least her husband has somewhere to go to every day, you know, but... some work to accomplish and all the result of that, and all that. But she doesn't, so... [00:21:28]

Still, you know, making comparison, I feel like there is no comparison because even though (ph I've moved in) with my mom, who's had jobs all her life, et cetera, (ph plays and things like that... except for that, you know, she has had that, but then, you know, like, and it's more of this, so many relatives already are, like, there is always someone always coming or going, she's always traveling. She's traveled practically all over the world. But my mom and I are not so blessed in this area, the family. ... People really make a difference... (pause 00:22:12-00:25:02)

THERAPIST: Where did you go?

CLIENT: Lots of things to think about. (chuckles) (pause) And I don't nearly worry about my mom as much as I should. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: I don't really spend that much time with her... don't really invest, like mentally or emotionally. Even last night at dinner, dreaming about (ph Victor) instead of, you know, thinking of other news. (chuckles).

THERAPIST: What was your dream?

CLIENT: I don't remember it very well. It was like (ph Chris) and I are in bed, like, it was like a stadium or like a performance, we were sitting in this like stadium seating. (ph Chris) and I on one side, and (ph Victor) on the other side. I'm not supposed to look there or talk, and, that whole anxiety of not talking, just... that was what it was.

THERAPIST: Not talking to (ph Victor)? [00:26:21]

CLIENT: Yeah. We were supposed to make things right. At least that was what I wanted to, but... Just that anxiety.

THERAPIST: Do you remember how the dream started?

CLIENT: No. I have very weird dreams sometimes.

THERAPIST: Do you remember anything else about the dream? Like what the performance was for?

CLIENT: No... It just mean like, you know, he's out, you know, you should stop (ph thinking about him), but... You know, like (chuckles) (pause) He's in Nepal right now, my (ph Chris). He couldn't even drop a line saying, you know, "My parents are okay, you need to know that." He said he would, so... (pause 00:27:38-00:27:51) Do you think that's right, to drop me a line, or like he just wants to show he doesn't give a shit?

THERAPIST: Is that something you feel I should know?

CLIENT: No, I just feel like... I just assumed he does give a shit, and I would say that and maybe he would say, "You know, maybe there is another perspective." (chuckles). Instead of assuming the worst. (pause) [00:28:29-00:00:29:00] I'm sorry; I'm so distracted today. (sighs; yawns)

THERAPIST: What are you distracted by?

CLIENT: (shifting position/inaudible 00:29:18) ... and I'm hungry. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Did you not like my bringing up the issue about your mom?

CLIENT: Well, I couldn't do anything about it. It's not that I don't like it, I just feel like... I don't know, you know... (chuckles) I guess I'm trying to deny that there is a problem there, or, you know, something that I can't change or help or don't want to. Probably I don't want to... I have thought about living with her, because then that would make it feel a little less like (ph anger) and then we have (inaudible at 00:30:11) into it... Because I'm nervous... you don't like... I could clean that up (sweeping), but I don't... You know, yes, I'm chickening out, this is an easier decision (chuckles). [00:30:40]

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like, by living with her, you'd be paying more than just paying her rent. There is more price to pay, there is more of a sacrifice than just money if you lived with her.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, you mean sacrificing my time and freedom and independence. [00:31:22]

THERAPIST: But you already feel your sacrifice and, I think, to some extent because you're not able to have the option of paying, of having your own place because you have to pay her rent, there was already some sacrifice of freedom, even the freedom to choose, even if you didn't choose that.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean... (pause) I don't feel as "choiceless" as I used to. (chuckles). I guess that's a good thing. I feel like, if I could, if I wanted to get a job, I could, you know, look for one. But I don't want to, because I'm working on my stuff for my (inaudible 00:32:25). (pause) If I wanted to live by myself, I could and I know if I need a part-time job... but I don't know if I want to live by myself, or if (inaudible 00:32:46). (pause)

And who knows? You know, if she... if I don't pass the right exams, you know, maybe she'll find a job and, you know, won't need my help, so... Temporary. [00:33:07]

THERAPIST: When was the last time that she was financially self-sufficient?

CLIENT: I think, pretty sure, like two years ago she could have been, but, you know, we weren't living together, so she didn't have to pay the rent. Yeah, I think she could have been self-sufficient that year. (pause)

THERAPIST: Maybe you need to feel that burden.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) How did you figure that out? (laughter) How did you figure it out? I want to know. [00:34:04]

THERAPIST: Why do you say that?

CLIENT: It's pretty good! (laughter) I don't know if I have intimated anything like that, so... I just wonder (chuckles)... maybe I have intimated or ...

THERAPIST: I was going to say, you intimate that a lot.

CLIENT: How?

THERAPIST: How don't you? (Client chuckles) Because you're thoroughly invested in this.

CLIENT: In what?

THERAPIST: You're invested in this burden. There's an investment, there is a deep emotional investment.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'd like to think that I'm good at something, you know, right away (chuckles)... And I would be a good burdened daughter, you know, that's... that's gratification very quickly. We have... I guess burdens ground you, you know? It's like a big weight on you, you can't move. (chuckles) But they also give you, like a position, like orient you. This is something I do, you know, so... it defines me. [00:35:34]

THERAPIST: The way you said "burdens ground you" reminds me of our discussion about being stuck; how "stuckness" grounds you, too.

CLIENT: Yeah. Two sides, I guess, of the same coin or something. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: So when you say, "How did you figure out," was it like a secret?

CLIENT: No, I mean... I guess I'd stopped thinking of him that way... without realizing it. But it was in the back of my mind, kind of, like never... maybe I do have to (inaudible 00:36:18), like, if I did, I'd forgot it. So that, you're saying, this is like an unhealthy thing. [00:36:30]

THERAPIST: There you go again!

CLIENT: Okay, okay. It's just a thing. (chuckles) You don't have to leap on it.

THERAPIST: Do you think of it as unhealthy?

CLIENT: Sounds unhealthy, but... (pause) I guess it could be, if it goes out of proportion too much, but... (pause) I just become this, you know? Like, for a long time. It's just been this, you know. "Oh yeah, she has her mother." Like, everyone, like, every time someone asks about me, they'll say, "How's your mom?" You know, "She lives with her mom" and that's kind of (chuckles) the thing that I'm known for doing. I guess that's the most peculiar aspect, that people think about me, without me even advertising it, so... [00:37:44]

(pause) What do you think about other people... Do we have time to talk?

THERAPIST: Yeah, we have like five more minutes. I started (inaudible at 00:38:03)

CLIENT: Other people can be, you know, they're just (ph them). I think that's so refreshing, you know, like when I think of all these people. They're just (ph them). They don't have any peculiarities, like, "Oh, (ph let's go to Mom's house)." You know, they're known for what they do, where they work and... Any scandal about them, final... (chuckles). I know that's not... but this is what I run from, so...

(pause 00:38:40-00:39:00) ...(ph he traveled, you know, like this)... everything that... Yeah, I don't know why that happens, like... maybe... (pause) And there are different aspects to a person, that I guess this is the one that people... kind of more inviting, or interesting than others. [00:40:03]

THERAPIST: (pause) What do you think they find interesting about it?

CLIENT: It's unusual because no one else does this anymore. No one, people don't live with their parents, at least in this country, you know, at this age, like an adult. (pause) Yeah, also like my professors from (ph MSU), they also work. That's what they ask me, when they (chuckles), when I let them, so...

THERAPIST: What do they ask you? Do you live with your mother?

CLIENT: No, they're like, "How's your mom?" You know, "How's..."

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: "How's she doing? What's she doing?" (chuckles) They don't ask other students that question, so... [00:41:06]

THERAPIST: How is that related to burden?

CLIENT: Because you have to do it, I'd like, it's not something that you would choose to do, but you have to do it. If you oblige, probably they (inaudible at 00:41:20), I think. What did you say, what burden?

THERAPIST: I didn't understand, because you were saying people ask about your mom, and so I was just wondering why you'd have to do something that you felt burdened by, in order for people to ask about her. That was what I was confused about.

CLIENT: Well, just because, like... you know, like, financial aid or whatever, like when that question comes up, you know, you have to say, "No, I can't do this, I can't (ph hold) this" because, you know, I have to support my mom. So I think I've said that, so... (chuckles) Maybe that's why... (pause 00:42:05-00:42:21)

THERAPIST: But then you end up becoming like your mom.

CLIENT: How?

THERAPIST: Because your mom says all the things that she can't do, or responsibilities she can't meet because she has burdens. So you're saying that you can't pay for some tuition because you have a burden. It's the same sort of thing.

CLIENT: Uh-oh. That's not good news. I don't want to be like my mom in the sense that I have limitations and things... What can she not do, like what has she said?

THERAPIST: She can't pay her own rent.

CLIENT: Oh. (chuckles) I think that's temporary. [00:43:05]

THERAPIST: Well then, she could borrow money from you.

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe that's what she's doing here (inaudible at 00:43:12). She is paying her own tuition. She took out, like a loan and she's paying that, so... (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, in your mind, your mother can't do much of anything.

CLIENT: Uh-oh. Then we have to change that, because she can. (chuckles). She really can, and I should think of her as capable of a lot. (chuckles). She goes everywhere by herself, you know, and she... there's all these things that we do, figured out health insurance, she does all of that on her own. (pause) I have to re-think of her as a strong person, because she has been, you know... [00:44:19]

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:44:22], that's all for today, okay? I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: All right. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. Take care.

CLIENT: Bye. [00:44:34]

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