TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. (pause)

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you. (pause) [00:01:00]

CLIENT: Did you have nice weekend?

THERAPIST: I did, thank you.

CLIENT: (chuckling) (pause) I suppose I had a nice weekend as well. (chuckling) (pause) Let's see. (pause) Let's see. On Friday, Chris (sp?) and I had a big fight. [00:02:00] (pause) Anyways, he also thinks that he'll be more comfortable with you, he said, with couples therapy. But I mean, there is that thing that you said about it not being technically possible or... (chuckling) (pause) But I just thought I'd tell you. (chuckling) (pause) Yea, on Friday we kind of had a fight and it was... it always seems like this is it. I guess because we are questioning whether we should be together or not. [00:03:01] And the thing you said about being stuck, I just wonder if I'm actually stuck in other vital areas as well. Not just the relationship.

THERAPIST: Well, I think so.

CLIENT: You think...

THERAPIST: Are you stuck in other areas?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Do you question that?

CLIENT: I was hoping that wasn't true much. (pause)

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Do you think that that's not true in other areas in your life?

CLIENT: It probably is. (chuckling) I guess I was hoping it wasn't but...

THERAPIST: I see. So it feels like it might be true but I can tell you it's not true and then that would be OK.

CLIENT: Well, no. It's another person's perspective and I don't know. Well and how am I stuck in other areas?

THERAPIST: You're getting your third master's degree, one of which you already have. So I think you're stuck in this role as a student even though I appreciate it provides structure. [00:04:07]

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: And I think you probably could be even more productive in your work. Although it sounds like you feel engaged in that. I think... so I think you're stuck in a student role to some extent.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: You're very stuck in your relationship with your mother. (pause) And you're stuck in this image of yourself as sort of helpless as David (ph). As feeling like a kid in a world filled with oppressive adults.

CLIENT: Yea. (pause)

THERAPIST: I mean, in a nutshell, it's basically why people come to therapy because they feel stuck.

CLIENT: Yea. (pause)

THERAPIST: So how are you hoping that wasn't true? [00:05:01]

CLIENT: (chuckling) Well, like so in the case with my mother. I have moved out so that is a big change. Although I see maybe what you mean is that in my... in the way that I relate to her emotionally, maybe I'm stuck. It's not I'm progressed in that respect. Is that what you mean?

THERAPIST: Yea. I definitely don't mean you're stagnant which I think is different than stuck.

CLIENT: OK. What's the difference?

THERAPIST: I actually don't know from a Webster's or Wikipedia.

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: But to me, stagnant means no movement.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: To me, stuck isn't like no movement but it's not fluid movement. And maybe I'm just parsing words. I don't know.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: But I certainly didn't mean to imply that... yea, that you haven't made any movement. I mean, clearly you have. [00:05:59] But it's sort of like you go... you make movement and then you're pulled back.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: So maybe that stuck isn't the right word. It's like in this constant tension.

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) Maybe because I don't have as many options or maybe I think that I don't have as many options.

THERAPIST: For?

CLIENT: To move. (chuckling) (pause) I don't know. (pause) With respect to my mother, either I live with her or I don't live with her. So being stuck was that. I don't know how exactly or exactly I should to do to change that. [00:07:01] (pause) Don't you feel the same about your parents just constantly? Or I don't know. I'm confused. (chuckling) (pause) How would I be unstuck in this situation?

THERAPIST: Well, you'd feel more choice in what to do whether... I don't think it would be simply that you wouldn't pay your mother's rent anymore.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: But that you would feel you have more choice not to to do it or not do it. (pause)

CLIENT: More choice.

THERAPIST: You wouldn't feel like you just have to because that's the way things are. And you yourself, you didn't say, "This is what I'm doing and I feel good about the decision even though I know it involves compromise." You said, "I try not to think about it."

CLIENT: (chuckling) That is true. [00:08:01] (pause) I guess I'm not so worried about money. But I don't know what else. How would I feel differently about this situation? I feel obligated. (chuckling) [00:08:59] Maybe that is the problem. Should I not feel obligated? Should I feel honored to be able to help someone? (chuckling) I don't know. (pause) I guess not feeling like I have to do this in a bad way. That would be the wrong way of thinking, I guess. (pause)

THERAPIST: You were also talking last time about feeling like it was part of your identity.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: The people were asking you a program about your mother.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: I didn't quite see how that was connected to you taking care of her. But clearly that you felt... you see a connection there. [00:10:03]

CLIENT: Well, just that that's who I am. That's the thing... quirky thing about me or the peculiar thing about me. The people that have jobs or people do interesting things. And I guess this is what I do because not everyone does it. Or maybe people do. But it's just not so central to their identity as it is to mine which I don't know. I don't... yea, I can't seem to shake it off because I guess that means I'm stuck. (chuckling) (pause) [00:11:04]

Well, maybe like living away from her would make... will have this... will get me unstuck. Because living with her, we were definitely much more closer in my head then. That was part of my identity more strongly. But now I have slightly more things to think about maybe not that much more but still. (pause) I just wonder like maybe I just... this just needs time. I just need to live away from her for a little bit longer. [00:12:02] (pause)

And in terms of working, I don't really mean that I feel completely like... I don't know. I mean, until you have a breakthrough, you're going to remain I don't know not necessarily stuck but yea, I don't know what to say about that. (pause) I guess I could have looked for residencies instead of another degree that I already have. But yea, this was like the easiest thing to do the easy way out of being stuck. [00:13:01] (pause) Yea, I'm definitely not one to feel stuck in my work. I don't know. That's the one thing I was hoping wouldn't be true. But I guess it is to some extent. (pause)

THERAPIST: (phone ringing) I would like to unplug this phone. I'm very sorry.

CLIENT: That's OK. (pause) Maybe I just take the easy way out in a lot of things. (chuckling) Chris (sp?) also just seems we keep falling back. [00:14:02] But there are all these positive reasons to fall back. And that was what the whole fight on Friday was about. So...

THERAPIST: I'm sorry. About falling back?

CLIENT: Yea, just that question of, should we remain together? Shouldn't we? Is when I think, oh, I'm stuck or if I don't move and I won't grow, that makes me want to kind of split. But then we just kind of fall back into the same pattern and right now I can't really just walk out. And where would I go? I would have to go to my mom and that's also not... that's less, even less ideal than staying with Chris (sp?) (chuckling)

THERAPIST: You can get... or find a place with roommates again. You did that before.

CLIENT: Yea, it would take a while. [00:15:02]

THERAPIST: On Craigslist, it'd take a day.

CLIENT: (chuckling) Yea, I don't want to move to a bad place. Or a cheap place would not be in Providence. It would be somewhere I wouldn't want to go to.

THERAPIST: How long did it take you to find the place that you lived in before?

CLIENT: Oh, it took a while because there was an interview process. It was tougher than landing a job.

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: No, seriously. There were so many applicants. It's a very nice house. And the main roommate the queen bee she's very particular. And she took two months, three months to find my replacement while I was just paying rent without living there. (chuckling) So... (pause) [00:16:02] But yea, I don't have to like... probably won't end up in this same scenario but...

THERAPIST: But I think this conversation we're having my telling you your options and you telling me you don't options or not very good ones.

CLIENT: This conversation?

THERAPIST: Yea. I'm like, "Well, you can find a place." "Oh, it could be a bad one." "Well, how long..." "No, I don't know. It may not be in Providence."

CLIENT: (chuckling) (pause) I don't know. I used to be very impulsive. But I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Do you think I was suggesting impulsivity?

CLIENT: (chuckling) Yes.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: It is wrong, I suppose. But I guess you weren't suggesting that. [00:17:03] (pause) I don't know. (pause) I don't understand my resistance to thinking I have options. But I definitely feel it. It's like more like lethargy or inertia. But it's definitely very strong. (chuckling) (pause)

Yea, but if my other friends got this done very quickly. We met a couple of weeks ago. [00:18:01] And she's like, "Yea, I'm breaking up with my boyfriend and either he's going to move out or I'm going to move in and get a roommate." And it took her a few days on Craigslist to find a replacement so... but then, I... my... then I think I couldn't do that. She's paying 750 for... and after I pay my mom 800-900, I have barely enough left for food and other things and cell phone bill. And so how am I going to pay her for my rent as well? That's where I feel stuck. That's why. And this thinking has been going on for years. And no wonder it's become permanent. And I just feel stuck. (chuckling) [00:19:03] So... (pause) This has been happening since 2006 or '05. So I've been paying the rent. Yea. (pause)

THERAPIST: So does your mother feel that that's what daughters should do? I'm not sure I understand your mother's perspective.

CLIENT: Well, we think of ourselves as one unit and that...

THERAPIST: And then why shouldn't she pay? I don't understand.

CLIENT: Well, she's never finds a good enough job. She would make $10 an hour tops. [00:20:04] But...

THERAPIST: That's $10 more than she would have an hour more than she'd have.

CLIENT: Yea, I know. But like she's worked at day cares and then when she hurt her back. And then, well, they let her go or fired her or something. So this pattern has been continuing since that time. That was 2005 or '06 or so. Yea. (pause) I don't know. Like after... basically after her divorce, it's been like... I don't know. She lived on her own for like one year or two years. And... [00:21:03] (pause) It's weird because it's not like I guess we're all afraid of something. We just don't know what. I mean, she has friends who work at remedial jobs at fast food places and other places. [00:22:03]

But this one other friend, she got a divorce long ago. Her daughter was one year old or something. And then since then she's had these two jobs. She works at two fast food places and ridiculous hours. And she's got very bad knees and this and that. And... but she put her daughter through college and she bought two houses and it's took her 20 years or more... 30 years. (chuckling) But she did that. And yea, even now she works, I think. But I don't know. I would feel bad if my mom was working that hard that I wasn't able to take care of her but...

THERAPIST: Do you feel like they're mutually exclusive either you take care of her or she takes care of herself? [00:23:14]

CLIENT: Maybe. Maybe if I take of her, then she doesn't have to do that. It's like if I do the dishes, then you don't have to. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: There are people who take turns doing the dishes or one person washes off the plates and the other person loads the dishwasher.

CLIENT: (chuckling) Yea.

THERAPIST: But you're describing doing what you're doing because she's too feeble to do anything.

CLIENT: I don't know. Maybe. It's not just that. It's also that it makes me feel useful. (pause) Yea, it actually makes me feel bad. [00:24:03] And this morning Chris (sp?) was washing windows and I actually felt bad that he was doing it. And I would feel like a sense of gratification if I did it. (pause) But that's the conflict, I guess, because I want to derive gratification from something that I cannot do unless I feel free from this other task that I'm looking at looking to progress occasionally. So it's like feeling free and feeling liberated. Free enough to live my life right instead of versus helping my mother. So and both can give me verification. Yea, I don't know. [00:25:04] (pause) Why do I think that she's feeble when she's seen so much in her life? And she is quite capable. (chuckling) I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Would you want to be in her position relying on you? [00:26:00]

CLIENT: No. (pause) I'd feel bad for my child if I was like this. (chuckling) I'd want them to respect me and love me and look forward to seeing me. And I would want to give them stuff. (chuckling) (pause) Why did you ask that?

THERAPIST: I was curious. (pause) I'm trying to... I'm not really trying to understand your mom. I'm trying to understand how you understand your mom.

CLIENT: Yea. [00:27:00] (pause for one minute) I don't know. This is peculiar and I don't know why I slipped into this pattern but I did. Would it helped to kind of think about how it started or... I think I told you the time I was in college and she came with her stuff and asked me to find... that she's just going to stay with me. And then the woman whose house I was staying in was upset that she was away and upset. [00:29:03]

Then I looked at my mother's resume which was, to me, so pathetic the bad English and bad formatting that I just couldn't take that. I mean, this happens, I guess, with all parents and children where parents embarrass their children. My mom keeps saying this even now. Like, "I embarrassed you." (chuckling) And yea, I mean, that's true for everyone, though, to some extent. (chuckling)

Now yesterday she came over with food and stuff. She comes every day. And she said that she had like she was going to a party with some... at someone's place. And I saw that she was wearing her swimsuit underneath her clothes. [00:30:01] And I was like, is it a pool party? She said, "Yea, I think it is." But her clothes were really shabby. (pause) She was wearing this really, really old shirt and black pants is like muddy and boots that are muddy. (chuckling) And she was saying, "This woman has a really nice house right here somewhere." And like you're going to a really nice place and you're going like this? It was just like and your hair is messy. And she's like, "Well, I have to wear a cap and the hair gets messy when you..." I'm like, "You look like..." (chuckling) I didn't say it but she looked like a complete mess. And just the day before or on Wednesday I had bought her this really nice shirt. It was beautiful with pearls on it. (chuckling) [00:31:00]

I don't know what to do. It's like I buy these clothes. It's... you have stuff but you want to wear the same shirt which was, by the way, my shirt from way long ago. (chuckling) It's just like it make... it infuriates me that she doesn't take care of herself physically. (pause) Well, we're being stuck. (chuckling) It's like the same shit year after year, day after day, week after week, year after year. It's just nothing that I say or do changes and so it just makes me... and then you stop saying it after a while. So... (pause) [00:32:02]

THERAPIST: You feel she could try harder.

CLIENT: Well, it makes no sense to me. If you're going out to a P-A-R-T-Y, you dress up. (chuckling) It doesn't matter if the house you're going to is in a trailer park or it's in the square. (chuckling) You try to comb your hair. You don't wear the same shirt that you wear every single day. (chuckling) (pause) She has options when it comes to clothes. But it's so typical. You keep saying, "You have options but you don't see them." It's the same thing. She's got a closet full of clothes. She owns like 20 times as many clothes as I do. [00:33:04]

Half of them worn, half of them that I have given to her at various for birthdays that she just... she doesn't see them or something. (chuckling) The reasons not to wear them. (pause) [00:34:00] But I mean, as far as... I don't know if we can change her behavior. But I guess we're here to help me change mine. (chuckling) At least my thinking. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yea. It seems like your mother is very invested in presenting herself in a particular way as you point out. It's not like she can't afford clothes. She just has to come over to her closet. But she's invested in portraying an image. (pause)

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) An image that "take care of me" or something. [00:34:56] Is that what you were thinking?

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking like one of the reasons that you make yourself look nice for parties is because you have dignity and you want people to see you as someone who sort of has dignity. And it's also... I mean a lot of respect for the person who is hosting the party that you want to acknowledge that they're doing something nice and you want to do something nice. It's not like you're going from your bedroom to your living room to watch TV for the day.

CLIENT: Yea. (chuckling) (pause) Yea, I mean, I just wish... that makes me... and so her behavior would cause me to be stuck, right? [00:36:02] Or I mean, like seeing the same kind of response no matter how I change my behavior. I don't know. So if one person in a relationship and you're doing things to change things but the other person is not, that'll cause you to be stuck, right? (chuckling) (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, that means that someone else has to change in order for you not to be stuck.

CLIENT: Yea, true which I don't... I agree that's not ideal and I should try to do... I should try to change. (pause) Well, like I try to just tell myself previously she was quite strong and dignified and this and that. [00:37:06] And she does dress up when she doesn't feel sad. So... (pause) And I've tried to be responsible for her happiness but I just... I cannot always be. Is that... does that sound like rational thinking? (laughing) I don't know. I don't know if I'm going around in circles. But...

THERAPIST: You became cautious for a moment.

CLIENT: Yea, I mean because I've been thinking these things for so long, I don't really know if I'm going around in a circle or if there is a path towards sanity and unstuck-ness or that there's movement. [00:38:03] (pause) I'm trying not to be stuck with my work. I mean, I hope that's not the case. [00:39:08] I read different things and I watch different things. And I get scared when I get a rejection and all. But I try to still keep submitting and keep trying. And does that sound like movement? (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yea. I was thinking... yea, but I thought about that. But it was sort of like it seemed like you switched or moved away from your topic with your mother because it's complicated (inaudible at 00:39:42).

CLIENT: It is. Yea, but my work is something that I feel like I could change more easily on my own. My mom, I'm sure will be talking about this for a while, yea, before there is a breakthrough in my thinking. [00:40:04] (chuckling) But... (pause) I guess I would try... can try to tell her, "Your options and you can do what you want." I mean, I try to be as positive as I can be. But... (pause) [00:41:05]

THERAPIST: Do you imagine you're keeping her from living on the street? Do you think she would be homeless? (pause)

CLIENT: No. I think she would just have less savings. Well, that's not that. But like she'll have to find a job in which she is not happy which is taxing her body. And I guess I'm afraid of how that would make me feel. I guess I am very selfish. [00:42:04] (chuckling) It's because I would feel like, oh, I'm not doing my job. But I guess when I... while I'm doing my job I'm actually making it harder for myself and her. I don't think I feel that way.

Yea, because like the friends that she has that are single well, two of them they're really very bad. One walks with crutches... one crutch. She has very bad knees. She's had her knees operated on several times. Another one is the same. She doesn't walk with crutches but... and I think she's maybe a few years older than my mom. [00:43:05] But yea, I just fear that like how she looks right now with her clothes. That can make me cry if I'm sad. (chuckling) So seeing not just wearing bad clothes, but have suffering while she's walking. That'll be even worse. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: There are so many jobs that don't involve physical labor. I just...

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: ...keep going that there are so many jobs. Ones that you don't necessarily even have to be well trained for. It's so interesting that you go to ones that involve physical suffering. There so many desk jobs. There are tons of them.

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) I have to train her then how to use... well, I've been training her how to use computers. (pause) [00:44:00]

THERAPIST: But you do see her as quite pathetic.

CLIENT: (chuckling) I wish I could change. How do I change that?

THERAPIST: You don't like when I say that.

CLIENT: Not at all. This is wrong and I should... that's the... like I wish I could change this outlook of mine. (pause) I don't know why I see her as so helpless even when there is plenty of evidence against that. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Well, in part you see her as helpless because that's what she conveys and that's what she wants to present herself as. That's a part of it.

CLIENT: Yea. (pause) [00:45:06] Maybe if I stop paying her rent, suddenly she'll seem very powerful to me. (chuckling) (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, I think I asked the homeless piece in part because I was wondering how low you felt she would go.

CLIENT: Without my help. Yea. No, I don't think she'll be homeless. I mean, she'll try to find a job and use her savings. Well, if she can find a job. (chuckling) [00:46:05] It won't be the one that she wants. But... (pause) It's... I mean, is it something that I can disabuse myself of if I just keep repeating, "She doesn't need my help. She doesn't need my help. She doesn't need my help." (chuckling)

THERAPIST: I actually know the answer to that. I would... I maybe could help. I don't know. But there's sort of a kind of motivation in you seeing her that way. [00:46:59] It's complicated in one vision. Wanting to feel important. I think also not wanting to be enraged with her. I think you do have a lot of anger and I think it scares you. There are a lot of things I think that keep you in this position that you're questioning that'll keep you here. Your sense of being fused to her at times.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Your fear of being separate both for you and for her. (pause)

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:47:37). We're going to need to stop for today. I will leave you with that very heavy note.

CLIENT: (chuckling) We'll make it like I hope. Have a good few days.

THERAPIST: Thank you very much. I'll see you Wednesday.

CLIENT: Thanks.

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