TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

(Silence)

CLIENT: (inaudible 00:23) the last time. (Laughter) I guess we could talk about the same thing. (Laughter) Nothing much has changed.

(Silence)

CLIENT: [I'm trying to] (ph) think about (laughter) what to say about my relationship with my mom that wasn't already said. [00:02:44]

(Silence)

CLIENT: I guess it's is it possible to, like, (inaudible 03:56) someone to a point where (pause), like, you start like, despising you (ph) or it becomes, like, sort of parasitic, or you start needing them. They start needing you, and they (inaudible 04:19). (Sighs) I don't know. Like, I guess mainly (ph) children depend on parents like that, right? (Laughter) But parents don't mind that. They're not, like (inaudible 04:43). My dad did. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: When children grow up and then they don't need their parents like that anymore. It's not (inaudible 04:56).

CLIENT: But then their parents could need them in that way.

(Silence)

CLIENT: I just wonder, like, how much (pause) like, Chris (sp?) and I were talking about this, and he was like (inaudible 05:35) I too he too he thinks, like, cultural things. Things that, like, we would feel obligated to look after our parents. But then when I told him, you know, it's more psychological in my sense because, while he might want to take care of his parents, he would feel, you know, guilty if he didn't. Or he wouldn't derive a sense of accomplishment based solely on that, from that help. Or that he wouldn't feel burdened by it. Like all of these emotions that I have attached.

That's not cultural. (Laughter) And that's more psychological. But (pause) I just wonder, like, if I could unpack some of this. All this complicated stuff that's going on. I don't know where to start. (Laughter) I used to kind of like feeling fused (ph) to my mother, you know, but I suppose that can be unhealthy.

(Silence)

CLIENT: You want to have a different identity of your own, you know, eventually.

(Silence)

CLIENT: It's very, I guess, painful to detach yourself from someone you feel so close to. (Laughter)

(Silence)

CLIENT: There have actually been very few times when I've lived away from her. Maybe that has something to do it as well. Most of my life I've lived with her, except for the four years in college, one year (inaudible 10:04), then now. (Laughter) So...

(Silence)

CLIENT: I mean, there can be positive aspects to being so close, but what are the negative aspects? Like, I lose sight of the negative when I'm focusing on the positive. (Laughter)

(Silence)

CLIENT: I don't know. Maybe things are getting better. I didn't blame myself too much when she got locked in the new bathroom. (Laughter) I didn't think to (inaudible 13:26) living with her, [this wouldn't have happened] (ph). I mean, I see that she's, like, capable of taking care of herself. Maybe not quite, but fairly. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Well, you wondered at the beginning of the session whether two people or maybe one person or both people end up despising each other and end up in a parasitic relationship. That was quite a statement.

CLIENT: Well, I have to think about I actually wanted to say parasitic, but I didn't say it. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Yeah, you did.

CLIENT: Oh, I did?

THERAPIST: Yes, you said parasitic.

CLIENT: My mind is not really (laughter) completely here. In a daze.

THERAPIST: Well, your sensors aren't completely here.

CLIENT: Yeah. And they're in the mind. (Laughter) But yeah, I mean, (pause) I'm just trying to think that there are positives to be had in that scenario. But then there's also negatives, and sometimes the negatives can be very debilitating. So, you know, a good idea to distance yourself with them. When I do that, I don't want to lose sight of some of the things that are important to me. But unfortunately, the ones that are important to me have become so important that they're part of my identity and then I'm like even that, depending on it so much, to that extent really is not so good, you know.

(Silence)

CLIENT: I think I'll always feel really, really close to my mom just because, you know, we've shared so much, and I've seen her through some very shitty times and stuff that (ph), you know. But how do I make peace with (inaudible 16:00). What are my goals? (Laughter) Do you know what they are?

THERAPIST: What made you lose them at this moment? That's the question.

CLIENT: Because (inaudible 16:16) this is very precarious (ph). I really don't I'm slipping and sliding on the (inaudible 16:21). (Laughter) I don't know why, but (pause) I keep getting pulled in two directions. I want to cling, and then I want to be set free. (Laughter) I want to set the other person free. And this is true for not just my relationship with my mom, but now Chris (sp?). So maybe I'm (inaudible 16:54). It's too impulsive.

(Silence)

CLIENT: My dad used to ask me, "Who do you want to be with? Your mom or your dad?" And he would say this, like, very often when I was little, you know. At that time, I was feeling positive about him. I would just say, "No (inaudible 17:37)." And also, in an effort to kind of keep him there. Now, I'm like, what a ridiculous thing. He wanted to leave, and he was pretty much out (ph). He should have just been out. (Laughter) And, you know, later on, I was like, "Yeah. (inaudible 17:57) my mother," you know. But, like, being split in the middle has been kind of somewhat of [the theme] (ph).

Yeah, I don't know if I can articulate my goals, in terms of what I would like my relationship with my mom to look like at this point. (inaudible 18:27) Maybe I can, but I would be true to them. Well, like, I guess both of those was more to feel strong, so whatever makes us feel strong, like, makes us feel like we can do we can take care of ourselves ourselves, you know. And bring positivity into the other person's life. Being there for each other without, you know, causing too much destruction in the other person's life or making them feel too weak (inaudible 19:21). (Laughter) (Pause) And I'd like my identity to be something else other than, "Oh, she takes care of her mom." (Laughter) (Sneezes)

THERAPIST: Bless you.

CLIENT: Thank you.

(Silence)

CLIENT: But how do I get there? How do I accomplish these goals? (Pause) If she asks me for help, how do I respond? Like, (pause) without thinking, "Oh, she's," you know, whatever (inaudible 20:54), you know. Should I ask her to tend to herself first? Give her suggestions that involve her doing it herself, and then if none of them succeed, I can step in, you know.

THERAPIST: Do you think she's not smart enough to figure out how to do things herself?

CLIENT: Well, certain things, I suppose. (Pause) She's fairly independent because, like, now that I don't live with her, it feels, you know, like she's asking me for things a lot less, obviously. (Laughter) (Pause) Yeah, there was a lot of that when we were living together. "How do I do this on the computer? How do I get to that place? Can you take me there? Can you take me grocery shopping?" you know. It doesn't happen so much.

Even the rent thing. I suppose if I said, you know, "I can't help you a few months," or [something like that] (ph), she can (ph) probably find a job. That'll make me feel bad but I don't know if I can't not feel bad, you know. That is, you know. I don't see that being possible. How can you how can I not, you know? When (ph) I feel like (inaudible 23:15) capable (inaudible 23:16) be able to do this and feel bad if I don't.

THERAPIST: What comes to mind about a parasitic relationship?

CLIENT: Being locked and kind of not even caring or seeing that the other person that your demand is having a negative effect on the other person.

THERAPIST: Okay. (Pause) I mean, a parasite tries to survive by feeding off the host and jeopardizing the host's survival for their own survival.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I think I called Chris (sp?) (inaudible 24:26) a couple years ago, when I was [in Ohio] (ph) working. But that was my choice. (Laughter) (inaudible 24:45)

THERAPIST: It sounded like you were angry.

CLIENT: Yeah, I was very angry. Chris (sp?) caught the full force of it. (Laughter)

(Silence)

CLIENT: I suppose if I think about it in this term, like, oh, I don't know, like I wouldn't have money for own rent because I'm paying for my mom's rent. I could look at that as a parasitic situation. But I'm trying not to, in the sense that I'm telling (inaudible 25:42) it's my choice to live where I'm living. It's my choice that I pay my mom's rent. Because if I don't, then I'll feel bad and (inaudible 25:57), and I don't want to have that feeling.

THERAPIST: It sounds like, in part, you say it to yourself as your own choice because you're trying to combat other feelings you're having.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Of being resentful.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like, do I want to feel free and a little guilty? Or do I want to feel (pause), you know, not free and not guilty? (Laughter) So I'm choosing the latter [it seems] (ph).

THERAPIST: Except you still feel guilty.

CLIENT: How?

THERAPIST: You're saying "now"?

CLIENT: No, why? How do I feel guilty?

THERAPIST: Now? How do you feel guilty now?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You talk about feeling guilty all the time.

CLIENT: (inaudible 27:04)

THERAPIST: I mean, it sounds like you still feel guilty that you don't live with your mother. That you see her struggling on her own.

CLIENT: How? What can I do about it? (Laughter) (Pause) Don't all children feel guilty when they see their parents, I don't know, not getting along so well without them?

THERAPIST: No, because many parents get along just fine. Many adults get along just fine. You think most adults struggle? That's just what [it is] (ph). I imagine your mom's older?

CLIENT: Late 60s.

THERAPIST: Late 60s. That's just inevitable, that people in their 60s can't take care of themselves?

CLIENT: No. So you're saying she projects that image (ph) that she's not taking care of herself?

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, can I control that?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: What can I control?

THERAPIST: How you respond to it?

CLIENT: And I will feel guilty, right? I mean, the goal is not to, but how do you get there? (Laughter) It seems to me I have to develop not just a thick skin but, like, some kind of a magic shield to not have my mother's life affect me, you know. (Pause) I suppose, you know, I did feel kind of growing up, I took perhaps a vow that, you know, my life would be so I could make her life happier and, you know, like, better. And I articulated that very early (inaudible 29:42) my (pause) mom's brother kind of did the similar thing, where he took care of his mom, and she lived with him till the day she died. And I once told her, "I admire (inaudible 29:56) so much. You know, like, I want to be exactly like that." (Laughter)

THERAPIST: What was wrong with her?

CLIENT: Nothing. I mean, she was just very, very traditional. Far more dependent on him than my mom is. She didn't speak much English. They came to the U.S., like, in the early 80s, and she died in, like, 2003 or something. Or two. So until all that time she's with him. 20 years. But I also saw the negative side of that a lot. Like, their relationship was very, very strained. They hardly spoke. They lived together, you know, in one house, one apartment. There was hardly any dialogue. That was, like it was like a housing of mourning. You know, silence all the time. And yeah. And when he spoke to her, it was like in a very, very sharp, biting tone. And he screamed at her, you know. And she couldn't do anything. Like, she felt very, very restricted. And she couldn't step out. She couldn't meet people. She couldn't say anything.

Like, once he bought this car, like he's well employed, so he has a little money and stuff. But he bought this Mercedes, you know. (Laughter) My boyfriend at the time, we were like, "Oh, this is the best, you know, Mercedes ever." It (ph) was like (inaudible 31:38). And so, his friend came my uncle's friend came over. And my nanny, my grandma, she's so cute. She's so tiny. She's, like, five-ten or something. Not five-ten. Sorry. Four-ten. (Laughter) Four feet, you know. And she probably weighed, like, 75 pounds. And she's sitting there on the floor, and, you know, these two men are there. And she's like, "I have to tell you something. Something very nice has come into our family."

And my uncle is, you know, "I told you not to tell them about-" because he doesn't like to show off and stuff. Even though there's colleagues, he doesn't want his colleagues to know he's bought this fancy car. He never took it out. You know, it always would sit in the garage. He would drive his old Nissan, whatever it was. (Laughter) A Maxima, everywhere, instead of this Benz. So my grandma is like, "I have to tell you something nice has come into our family." My uncle's giving the (inaudible 32:51) my, you know, cousin (inaudible 32:57), you know, granddaughter just had a child." (Laughter) So she wasn't telling him about the car. It was, you know, my cousin had a child, who was coming at that time.

So I just was like, you know, this is, you know, this is the extent to which he controls here. And it's so wrong, you know. Like, he's and then there were moments of, you know, very tender moments. Or not tender, but she had a pacemaker installer, and he'd be in her room with her, you know, and checking up on that. You know, being her son. But then there were other moments where, you know, like, she tried to clean up the bathroom one time and, oh my god, he screamed. He screamed and screamed at her for doing that work herself, instead of letting someone else do it. You know, this is (inaudible 33:55). And she was in tears. You know, this is, like, an 80, 70-year-old woman you're screaming at, you know. I mean, I saw how powerless she felt, and I just didn't like that at all.

So on the one hand, I appreciated that he was taking care of her. I also saw that his care made her completely dependent on him and completely powerless at his own hand. And he, you know, he is a terrible, bitter person and (sighs) too righteous, you know. Like, and yeah.

THERAPIST: Self-centered. Why would he think she was announcing that he got a car? Why would that be newsworthy? That's a strange thing.

CLIENT: Is it?

THERAPIST: What's the big I mean, clearly, he felt a very, you know, felt this way newsworthy.

CLIENT: He did?

THERAPIST: Yeah, the fact that he thought that she was going to announce the car, he must have felt it was very important.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Who cares?

CLIENT: [I don't know] (ph). But I just -

THERAPIST: And it's interesting though. He saw himself as so powerful and so important, he couldn't imagine that other things might be more important than him or his car.

CLIENT: Well, he just assumes that he is the center of her life.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And he probably was, to a great extent.

THERAPIST: But it's interesting, the analogy. Because I'm not sure it's well, providing for your mother makes you feel important too.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't want that. I want it, but I don't want it. Because it really does make me feel good about myself, being very honest. It makes me feel superior to a lot of other people who don't do it, you know. When I'm standing in a room full of my friends, I look at everyone and go, "Oh, but they don't do this. I do it. Yay, I win." (Laughter) I have a little victory dance in my head, you know. But then I'm like, now that I see the negative ramifications of it, I'm like, I don't want to do the victory dance. (Laughter) I don't yeah. I want her to be yeah, I want her to have her own marriage, and I don't want to take care of her. I don't want to be the center of her world, you know. I want to see her thinking about other things and ignoring me, you know. (Laughter) Yeah. [00:36:52]

THERAPIST: Do you feel if you didn't pay her rent that she'd be resentful of you?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I feel that. Not just that, but she'd feel betrayed that, you know, you and I, we were one. What happened? You know, like, and then you don't care about your mother (inaudible 37:21) woman who has sacrificed so much for you. You know, the guilt. What do you call that thing (ph)?

THERAPIST: Guilt trip?

CLIENT: Yeah. Emotional blackmail that Nepalese parents [can do] (ph).

(Silence)

THERAPIST: Do you think she knows that you left your old apartment to pay for her rent?

CLIENT: I don't know. I think she might be in denial, not wanting to know that. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: What happened what do you think would happen inside her, if she weren't in denial? If she knew that?

CLIENT: I don't want her to think that. Then she'll feel guilty, and I don't know where that would lead her (ph) to. You know, underneath (ph) she, you know. The way she lives drives me crazy sometimes. And if she was even more guilty and even more depressed then oh my god. (Laughter) I don't know if I can deal with, you know, that. It's still about me entirely, you know. It's still very self-centered. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Do you feel badly about yourself and you think these things about her?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I was thinking, and I anticipate this might cause you anxiety, so we'll talk about that. But I was thinking, well, guilt I mean, there's healthy guilt and unhealthy guilt. If you don't kill someone because you'll feel guilty for killing them, that's healthy guilt. (Laughter) I mean, you know, some guilt prevents you or has you do things that are the right thing to do, you know.

CLIENT: That's true. [00:39:42]

THERAPIST: It's not all bad. Taking something away from your daughter, you know, inhibiting her life. You know, a young woman who you want to see thrive so that you don't have to get a job, that might not be a bad reason to feel guilty.

CLIENT: What about my guilt? (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking that, right, so you can then say, "Well, but then my guilt is healthy or normal." I knew you were going to say that.

CLIENT: (Laughter) I can live with that, you know. Sending...

THERAPIST: Sending your mother to the dungeon? (Laughter) You continue to be on this belief that she's a helpless, pathetic person. (Pause) I mean, if you do believe that about her, I guess, you know, I understand why you feel obligated to feel take care of, you know, kind of a retarded person. You know, if you have, like, a retarded child.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: And they can't take care of themselves, I think it would be cruel to, you know, just say, at 18, "Well, good luck." But that's based on the fact that they're retarded.

CLIENT: I've worked at a school where they're treated. Or not treated. You know, where they go to school. So even that mentality has been kind of wiped out of my head, that they're pathetic, because...

THERAPIST: They have capacities.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: And to just be treated as enfeebled and incapable of anything is no good for them.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughter) Well, I this happened in 2009. Like, I was going to MSU, and my mom when we moved to D.C., because I was going to MSU. And when she moved, she had come here and got in for a job at the daycare, and that went on for a few months. And then she hurt her back again, so she had to quit. Was let go or fired or something. And then she worked at a coffee shop, and that had such a deep psychological impact on me, I wrote about it and, like, I entered the story in a contest and it won and all that. But that just became kind of my mold (ph) of thinking (inaudible 42:27) for a little while. That, you know, that she had a dream of being a teacher, but instead of accomplishing, achieving that goal, realizing that dream, she, instead, was working at a coffee shop. Whereas, I was (pause), that semester, I was teaching my own course at MSU. And that made me feel very guilty.

THERAPIST: That's a very interesting story. I do want to know more about that.

CLIENT: Okay. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: We do need to stop for today. You got my e-mail about the insurance, right?

CLIENT: Is it do you know what's going on?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's not, you know it just is a weird I've worked with this insurance before, so I don't know what's going on there. They've just had a lot of problems. It's completely not your fault. You ought not to feel guilty about it. (Laughter)

CLIENT: No, no, no.

THERAPIST: Not your problem. But one thing they are doing is they seem to be sending checks to you, when it -

CLIENT: Checks for you to me?

THERAPIST: Exactly, that's what they're doing. I've had this happen before. So if they have the right address, it's not a big deal. Then you can sign it over to me. But I think they're being sent to your old address. So that's why, after all this (inaudible 43:38), that seemed to be the problem. So if they're sent to you and it's your old address, it could take you a while. That's why I asked if you could and I'll try to have them send it to me. I don't know if that's going to work. So at the very least, if they send them to you and it's the right address, it would be more straightforward. So that's why I asked.

CLIENT: Should I call them or ?

THERAPIST: Yeah, if you can call and you may even just be able to update your address by calling them. So if you are able to call them and just update your address, I think this will solve a lot of the problem, because then they'll just send them to you. But I feel like they're sending them to you and you're not they have your old address. Okay?

CLIENT: Yeah. (inaudible 44:12) you changed the address, so...

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk 44:16) insurance. You call them and let them know. They should be able to change it pretty easily.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay, I'll see you Monday.

CLIENT: Okay. Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT