TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Do you want it?

THERAPIST: Hmm?

CLIENT: Do you want the box somewhere else?

THERAPIST: No, no. I'm good.

CLIENT: Okay. I'm tired. I'm doing so much mentoring now and it is a completely different way of being. (PAUSE) I'm mentoring an undergraduate student for his thesis.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I am mentoring a doctor who wants lab experience and she's never been in a lab before and then I'm TAing Kelly's class, and I'm interviewing students for Vassar admission right now too. [00:01:03]

I really love it but you really have to think a lot when you, when you talk to someone about something that they don't know about and that you know about and that, but you don't want to tell them everything you know. So there's this constant like balancing of how much you tell them, positive encouragement and then just like thinking. Like people don't really think that much in their day or I didn't really think that much in my day but when you're like explaining something to someone and working with them one on one for like two hours you have to think a lot. [00:01:59]

THERAPIST: So like very different muscles.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

Alright. I talked, I thought about why I might, why I didn't feel like I wanted to make use of things that would help me contain difficult feelings or why I wasn't or why I thought it was okay that I, that I wasn't making use of them or that there aren't any ways to contain them, any of those things. And I, the first thing that came to my mind is that, okay if Jeremy is the... [00:03:05]

If he is like the best bet and is the most effective container holder, maybe, maybe there's something in me that makes me think that I'm burdening him."

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But I asked him. We talked about it and... Like I asked about Friday and whether that was a burden or like whether it was okay. He said that he was, he's always so happy to help me through talking. He said he is perplexed by my feelings about you but that doesn't mean that he's not happy to hear about them.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [00:03:59]

CLIENT: So that really doesn't change that much for me. I mean, it's good to hear but I think there's more going on I think. One, I can't tell Jeremy everything or I don't want to and two, I don't know that I want to contain the feelings. (PAUSE) I don't know that I want them to be liberated and I'm not sure why. I think it could be because maybe some part of me really likes them and maybe the sense of being like on the edge of like me holding like my being aware of the things holding on to me, like the feelings holding on to me is like kind of where I'm most comfortable.

(PAUSE) [00:05:15]

CLIENT: Not that I'm particularly comfortable so I don't think... I don't know.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: But like if you were like, "Here's a button that you could press to liberate all of your..." Say it was a really specific button that would liberate all of my Josh feelings, I wouldn't press it. So that's surprising to me.

(PAUSE) [00:06:05]

(PAUSE) [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: Which ones do you have in mind?

CLIENT: Which what?

THERAPIST: Which ones do you have in mind not wanting to go away?

CLIENT: Well I sort of, I'm like building this whole fantasy in my head and it's kind of nice.

(PAUSE) [00:08:05]

CLIENT: But it's like such a challenge so it doesn't get boring. It's such a challenge because it doesn't quite match with reality but reality isn't so bad and it's fulfilling too and I'm not sure what reality would be like if the fantasy were to go away. Maybe I would like it. (PAUSE) Maybe I would stop seeing you.

THERAPIST: What's going on in the fantasies these days?

CLIENT: Oh, so... This brings us to the dream which is, was a really good dream. It was the first time I've dreamt about you like really at all. [00:09:03]

Okay, very intricate. So your office is in Vassar and I'm seventeen minutes late. That's the latest I've ever been to an appointment with you, for some reason that sucks.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: I needed to get from one side of Vassar to another and cross (ph) which is a very...

THERAPIST: You're referring to like this city as opposed to the campus?

CLIENT: I was on campus. Your...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: ...office was not on campus.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So I decided to take a cab which I had never done in Vassar before and instead of taking a cab, I came across these two people who were in a rental car and so that they would drive me to your office if I would return the rental car after sometime. [00:10:07]

So they made me a few minutes late because of their poor choices in what roads to take and your office was in your house but it was like in your like office house and you were barefoot but you were like wearing normal clothes and that wasn't the first thing I noticed but I noticed it at home point. And you had like all this stuff going on. (LAUGHTER) Yeah. There were several like decoy wives and children that came in.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Like three different sets. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: And...

THERAPIST: I actually have four but go ahead. [00:11:03]

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) The fourth one didn't... Well actually the... Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So they came in one after the other and like everyone else like this is it and they weren't. And then some I personally went to college with was leaving your office as I or like he appeared and then like left in the middle of our session. And I was... Often in my dreams I am, I am out of control. Like I don't have balance, physical balance and I... Like I've had a lot of softball dreams where I fumble the ball a lot because I can't focus on it or I fall over. And then on top of that I was also like crying all the time. [00:12:09]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: So like the series of wives and children walked through and you did something. You like shut all the doors or like just made sure that no one else was going to come through and every time there was an interruption you got really annoyed. Maybe like the interruption from yesterday?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: So this was like, felt like a long time, like forty five minutes and our session was an hour long and that's after like my being seventeen minutes late and somehow the timing of it was like very vivid. So...

(PAUSE) [00:13:01]

CLIENT: So there was like a couch and there was like this thing and another couch and another chair and a sliding door and you had moved positions and you were like, "Okay. I want you to come really close to me now." And I don't remember what we were talking about before but it's almost as you were, as if you were like... I don't know, like unraveling piece by piece and each piece was like in between different interruptions in a different part of the room and so I was like used to moving around throughout the forty five minutes but this was like the final spot. [00:14:05]

And you were sitting like, I don't know, you were sitting like this and maybe your arm was like this. Anyway, you were like, "You have to sit here. You have to be really close to me for this," and then I could smell you and you smelled really good.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: And then you asked me, "Is there," like, "Is there anything you would like to tell me or something?" And I said, "I love you." [00:15:01]

And I was crying and you put your hand on my knee and I remember, that was kind of where the dream ended and I remember it not being like a very (PAUSE) a very warm or like, "I love you back touch." It was sort of like, "Good work for today. That's the end. We have to stop." But I wasn't hurt. I guess I was hurt in the dream but I wasn't... It was fine. I wasn't devastated. I was like, "Okay. We have to stop." And then I went out through your real house and saw your real wife and children and they were playing. I was walking across a landing of the stairwell and they were playing below. And it was like beautifully illuminated with a loft yellow light and, yeah, I really liked them. [00:16:15]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Isn't that a cool dream?

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Yes it is. It is.

CLIENT: I was very pleased with my subconscious and felt a sense of...

THERAPIST: (inaudible) yeah.

CLIENT: ...felt a sense of companionship. Like, okay. This other part of my brain like gets it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:17:00]

THERAPIST: Well thank you for the sentiment.

CLIENT: It was my subconscious.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Oh. At the end before I left you were like, "Oh and I don't tolerate..." And you had made up some word for tardiness but it was like some crazy made up word.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: And I was like, What is that?" and you were like, "You being late." I guess that was kind of a downer. But it was more of like, "You're the boss. You can say that. It's fine." [00:18:17]

THERAPIST: Like I was kind of asserting my authority?

CLIENT: Yeah. Or your paternity or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (PAUSE) That's a striking way to put it.

CLIENT: I mean, I don't think you were particularly paternal in the dream and I don't think you are in real life but I... It was, it was almost like you should be a lot older than you were like you were sort of a wise older figure who is sort of leading me along this journey and you have your rules. [00:19:05]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And I guess I kind of said that because maybe I, maybe there are theories out there that involve fathers and daughters. So it was more of a, "Do you think?" I don't know. It didn't really come from a genuine place.

THERAPIST: I see.

(PAUSE) [00:20:00]

(PAUSE) [00:21:00]

THERAPIST: I'm smiling because the way the dream strikes me as like you're working very hard to like try to figure out what the hell is going on here.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: In having the dream or in the dream I was working hard?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think in all of the (inaudible) having the dream I guess I was thinking.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Um...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like closed? Are we closed? Like is there (inaudible)isn't there? Do you really know me? Don't you? Yeah. You know, it... The...

(PAUSE) [00:22:11]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) frustrating but also could be a little reassuring (inaudible) in relation to each other. Like...

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: But I thought about stopping. [00:23:01]

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: So I think most of the fantasies like when I'm awake have to do with just sort of uncovering who you are and making you happy.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [00:24:01]

CLIENT: Sometimes it's sexual.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: But I wouldn't use the word erotic. Sort of just a very blurred spectrum.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. (PAUSE) The most intense moment in the dream seems when, you know, I finally invite you over right next to me and you tell me that you love me and you're crying. [00:25:09]

CLIENT: I guess so.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (PAUSE) And it's a lovely moment.

CLIENT: Mm hmm. There is a very brief sense of having broken through and then it went away with the pat on the knee and the, "I don't accept tardiness." [00:26:11]

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: But then there's also this reward of seeing your family from afar.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:26:59]

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: I just, I wish you would say a whole lot right now.

THERAPIST: Whatever. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Yeah. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Umm...

CLIENT: And I guess it, I guess it kills me that there are wheels turning. I don't know if they are.

THERAPIST: Mmm.

(PAUSE) [00:28:00]

THERAPIST: I mean, I guess I'm... (PAUSE) You know, I guess I feel this sense of like kind of enjoyment and kind of closeness on one side and sort of frustration on the other and I guess I find myself thinking of what I could say that would make this less frustrating. Or... [00:29:19]

CLIENT: Really? You're...

THERAPIST: Like what I could say to be helpful to you about that...

CLIENT: Mmm.

THERAPIST: ...because...

CLIENT: I think it's obvious that you could say lots of things that would be temporarily helpful.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: What do you have in mind?

(PAUSE) [00:30:00]

CLIENT: You could just tell me about stuff.

THERAPIST: Stuff about me?

CLIENT: Mm hmm. (PAUSE) Okay. Maybe we can be creative. (PAUSE) You could tell me if you have a prediction of the trajectory in your mind. [00:31:05]

THERAPIST: Of how this is going to go?

CLIENT: Yeah. That seems on the surface helpful from the you're the therapist perspective.

THERAPIST: Right. So as I follow, you're working to kind of find things that sort of satisfy both of our goals and constraints at the moment...

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

THERAPIST: ...where I could say something, you know, that I'd be cool with because it would be therapeutically beneficial and that you would be cool with tell you about the sort of thing you want to know...

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:31:15]

THERAPIST: ...about where I'm coming from, what I think, or what my reactions to you are. (PAUSE) Umm... (PAUSE) You know?

(PAUSE) [00:33:00]

THERAPIST: You know, I think, you know, I wish I knew another way to be fully helpful, that this is one of those instances where... See, okay. So here's something. Maybe something that's a little different than the model of thoughts and feelings being liberated in meditation or psychotherapy or psychoanalysis is that in meditation the containment enables the liberation and then it's gone. In psychotherapy, the containment enables further association. [00:34:21]

CLIENT: Hmm.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: It sort of, yeah, fosters like memories, perspectives, other feeling or thoughts that sort of contextualize (inaudible) and in this case what's so frustrating and why. [00:34:59]

And, I mean, it's probably an interesting difference and I'd probably be interested to think about it some other time but at the moment, what I'm saying is I think sort of focusing on and sort of containing and seeing what comes up, what comes up around the frustration, I don't think it will make it go away exactly. But it will likely benefit you more so than my, you know, just kind of satisfying it. [00:35:57]

Although, you know, in a way, I'm not holding out on you because I like that or because I don't want you to know things about me. Not at all. It's because there's something that probably really matters and, and that we don't yet know or because I don't yet know about you related to the nature of your frustration and what to do about it.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: That helps a lot.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Slash blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

THERAPIST: Fair enough. (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:37:05]

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't know (inaudible). (PAUSE) I mean, at one level (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:38:01]

CLIENT: I don't know how much there really is too (inaudible) about why that's frustrating.

THERAPIST: Sure. Absolutely. You know, in itself, sure.

CLIENT: But I don't know if there's much to ask about why you love people. Maybe there is. Right?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah, there's something in the particular somewhere.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: There's something in the particular somewhere.

(PAUSE) [00:39:00]

CLIENT: I don't get what you said.

THERAPIST: What I mean is like, you know, in a general way, it's clear why it would be frustrating not to know more about me but there's something about how that's unfolding here that... [00:40:07]

Let me think about it a little more. I may be able to explain better by example and more exactly.

CLIENT: Okay. I guess, maybe if would help to hear that like a different way it could unfold.

(PAUSE) [00:41:00]

THERAPIST: Well, why was it unclear that it was developing through the fall (ph)? Why has it been hard to talk about the kind of (inaudible) sadness and loneliness while you're here? Why... (PAUSE) ...you know, in the dream, like there's this sort of consistent jostling around my getting close and being frustrated, you know, or being frustrated like kind of going back and forth. [00:42:15]

CLIENT: The dream is a lot more about being close.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But yeah, there's... I didn't, I felt out of control and, you know, uncomfortable.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. And there was a lot in the way, the wrong side of town and then, you know, the wrong turns and the decoys and...

CLIENT: Mm hmm. Right.

THERAPIST: You know, like bare feet which is kind of more casual and relaxed but like I'm wearing my work clothes which is my regular work clothes in my house.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's my house but it's a home office.

CLIENT: Your family was there but they weren't accessible. [00:43:17]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think it's hard to feel like... I think I'm just a little too excited when I'm here to feel what it essentially a big drop in excitement and a drop in excitement and a drop and like a spike in loneliness and a loss of, yeah. I also... I don't know that I... I think I'm sort of becoming a different...

(PAUSE) [00:44:07]

CLIENT: I'm (inaudible) a lot here and in some ways the feelings of sadness and loneliness and frustration are kind of like slipping back. (PAUSE) So that like when I'm not, whatever, like playing music or mentoring or working or exercising or when they're aren't things to hold my attention or excite me in genuine ways that it's like I slip back into this void. [00:45:09]

And I can do my best to describe but I don't feel the void here. Except that I think I kind of do but I don't know how, I don't know what to say about it. I'm not really in touch with it. I think I'm too busy like reaching and stribing and reading cues that I can read and wondering, you know... I think I'm like really focused on you. [00:45:51]

THERAPIST: Yeah. That was... Funny that you put it that way. That was one thing that I thought when you were talking about this, the intensity of your focus on figuring out things about me in a place that kind of nominally about figuring things about you.

CLIENT: Yes.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: But I don't (inaudible) way. Like, you know, when you have strong feelings for someone you want to know.

CLIENT: Well and maybe this is how I'm going to figure things out about me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think so as far as trajectories go. [00:47:09]

CLIENT: But I don't know how if I'm so focused on you and like the shape of your ear and your teeth.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. (PAUSE) I don't know either. I feel like I would say, "We'll find out," but that seems like a cop out.

CLIENT: That's okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I have to go.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think I really like your teeth.

END TRANSCRIPT