TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Feel free to come on in whenever you're ready.

CLIENT: It's so cold. Did you get the October thing?

THERAPIST: No, but they said it's being processed.

CLIENT: Yeah, because I got an e-mail about that. I got another one this mVictorng.

THERAPIST: Great. Thank you very much for the help. I think they're finally processing it now.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh gosh, it's so cold. I can't feel my face. [00:01:45]

So, last time we were talking about my making people feel obligated and guilt tripping them, I guess. It's a very bad thing to do. I suppose. I don't know who I learned it from. Though maybe I was born with it. [00:03:15]

Well, I won't do this again. I won't offer to make some magazine's web site in hopes that they'll publish my stories. Yes, I just wanted to be included. There are other avenues to feel included. I just don't do them. There's readings and I have gone to one reading that I wasn't, in which I wasn't reading myself. There have been like seven or eight or more. So, I just, whether, you know, in here or near, in town at night, you know, it's a, it's a train ride away, so. But it's cold and I just don't feel motivated enough to go and hang out with those people. Feel very embarrassed and awkward that they're very younger than me. So, I don't know. It's their first and usually there are people my age and older, but I just feel, I don't know. Embarrassed by the fact that here I am again. In the student crowd and how do I introduce myself and feeling really awkward inside. Been feeling like that forever, so. [00:05:15]

But, I mean those, that would be like a more or just another way to feel included or involved. But, I should try to find my own way of getting involved and then it's maybe I do so the motivations are not very healthy or psychologically healthy, but I guess I feel like other people have an easier time feeling included than I do. But, I mean like, you know, Indians in America are just, you know, Asians or recent immigrants, they feel, they don't feel as excluded as I may do. As I do. You know, just by having lived here for so long. [00:06:55]

Maybe part of my anxiety comes from my years with the church in college and my really bad, very bad experience with all that.

THERAPIST: Feeling excluded when your mom was considering divorcing your father?

CLIENT: Yeah, and just everything. I haven't even had a chance to process the need. I put it in a box and forgotten it and I'm just afraid of processing it. But I was very, very, and, you know, like I was what? I don't know. 19 or 18 or something. So impressionable and like I remember the days clearly when I was converting. You know, like giving up. Not that I was a very religious Hindu, but, you know, like I believed in that in the sense that, you know, you pray and you, you know, there are these gods and goddesses and, you know, whatever. [00:08:20]

And then converting or, you know, accepting Jesus in to my heart and, and the thing that comes with it. That he's the only way and if you believe in anything else, you're going to hell. And even the pastor telling my dad, you know, all the other religions are creations of the devil and then now I'm like my God. I was like, most, well not most, I guess the majority of the world claim that they're Christians. Still, you know, like there's a sizable population of the world that is not Christian, you know. They're all going to hell or you know. But, you know, I'm just like believing in that for, you know, four or five years or more just feels like, I feel bad. Bad as in theologically you should say, you know, this the betrayal I feel in all these people who were so close to me and are now, you know, like they don't care at all. [00:09:36]

So, I friended one person on Facebook and, you know, she hardly ever says, she doesn't talk to me. You know, I sent her a message. Hey, how are you? We should catch up. No response. She did accept my friend request, but, you know, it's like so weird. I'm just thinking that she's Chinese and, you know, she came here when she was two or something and she had photos up of celebrating the Chinese New Year and I was just thinking, you know, it's so easy for you and your culture because in your culture you don't have religion. You haven't had religion for, you know, a long time and, you know, it's easy for your culture to kind of make that negotiation that, you know, we can be Chinese in this way, but, you know, we're absolutely Christian in all these religious tones, but it's not that easy for Indians. Our religion is tied up in, with our culture. You know, we can't say oh, you know, we don't have a like a secular New Year's celebration. We're just very religious. Everything we do is very religious, so. [00:10:55]

And, you know, I just feel very judged that they're all thinking that, you know, oh, she's a lost cause or she accepted Christ and now she's a heathen again or whatever and that means like devil punishment or something. You know, I don't hurt the gospel. You know, there is more, God is more lenient to them, but if someone has heard the gospel and then chooses to ignore it, as, you know, the worst offenders. But, I mean, I shouldn't let all that, you know, like cloud or color my experience now, because none of the people I meet right now are Christians, you know. So, why am I talking about something that happened so long ago, you know? [00:12:00]

THERAPIST: Well, you put it in a box and you didn't have the time to go through it yet.

CLIENT: I don't know how to go through it. Like other than just saying yeah, okay, it was bad. What do I do about it? You know. I'm glad I escaped. Too bad they're not my friends anymore. You know. The other stuff, like guilt tripping or doing something nice instead of doing the thing that they want, to get me what I want. I don't understand that reaction in me. [00:13:10]

I think I did, well, I did the same thing with Victor one time. Like he, he and I had, you know, had split and at the bottom of a magazine subscription and he'd said this doesn't alter the thing between us and this and that and I don't want that and this and that and now I'm thinking about it and it seems like similar things, I guess. You know, like maybe I was hoping that he would see how nice I was and reconsider. So, I guess the same thing with the magazine. I am hoping that the editors see how nice I am and take pity on me or something. You know.

THERAPIST: I was thinking in this case being nice isn't, is not really related to the quality of your work. [00:14:15]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, there's, it's complicated.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, I guess in some, even this is a stretch, but if, you know, Victor thinks you're nice, that might be one of the qualifications for a girlfriend.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Being nice is not a qualification for an author.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know.

THERAPIST: But what you said. Maybe they take pity on me.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know why I think that way, but I do. You know, I guess I'm pitying myself too, so and say when I don't I get very scared and I start getting myself. It's not, it makes me feel very bad later on.

THERAPIST: What scares you? [00:15:50]

CLIENT: Well, when I'm like not, I'm not pitying myself. I'm not humble. You know, I've been flying high or whatever. It just feels like oh, I'm going to fall. It's going to hurt a lot. So, then I make myself fall. And then it's just like, then between flying high and then falling it's just I lose a sense of reality. Like where exactly the ground is and where I am on it, you know. [00:16:51]

Like, I don't like when a professor, you know, asks me so, what's your background? You know, like I told him about, you know, how I have to support my mom and this and that. His point was, you know, like you have to make a distinction between the direct knowledge that you're not living off a trust fund or whatever. You're like, you're struggling financially while trying to pay the rent. You have to acknowledge that. So, I mean I don't know what to do with that information. Like what he means by acknowledge. I think we talked about that. Like is that the reality that oh, no, no, I'm going to shovel, is that pitiful or? But I guess you would also say why can't you just think of me? Why do you have to like, why does it have to mean something or why do I have to have an adjective for them? Like is it bad or is not bad? Is it okay? You know. Like, if I don't have the judgment in my head or someone's judgment, I don't know whose, I don't feel comfortable with it, you know. [00:18:25]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I wouldn't say something doesn't have to mean something. I think lots of things have meaning. I'm more questioning you for what if I lean behind how much to evaluate in very stark categories, good or bad. It's not even evaluating. It's sort of a general sense.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. Well, what would that tell you about me? What would that accomplish?

THERAPIST: I'm not sure I understand what would what? [00:19:00]

CLIENT: Just knowing why something's bad or good for me. Yeah, even without my professor kind of telling me to acknowledge this, I have already acknowledged it and fitting myself for it. But in moments when I feel bold, it is very scary. I suppose something in the middle is what one desires, you know. To feel bold and at the same time, be humble. I don't know how to do that. [00:20:50]

I don't know why I need people's pity. I thought that I had quite a bit of self-respect, but if I desire people to pity me then why would, then how could I have self-respect, you know? Why do people have the need for pity? [00:22:15]

THERAPIST: Because maybe they'll get something they want that they don't feel like they could get otherwise.

CLIENT: Some things you can get by making others pity you, but I don't think you can get everything. I guess I'm realizing that.

THERAPIST: Well, there's that question and then there's the question of can you get some of what you want without needing to use pity at all? [00:23:20]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean it would be nice if I stopped pitying myself and using pity, but I've had, I think I've had it like I've done this quite often. I think my first impression I got by getting him to pity me. I've been caught in this story about my past that may or may not have been true. I might make an exaggeration. Perhaps, I was trying to get them to pity me. Because I guess I didn't think I was interesting enough or pretty enough or just, you know, loving enough to have, to be in a relationship. [00:24:40]

I guess in a way that I feel like I use this to get close to people and when they don't want to get close, I get very hurt. I genuinely feel like, like all of me feels like oh, no they're not that interesting or they don't have depth if they don't want to connect on this deeper level. It's just something that I'm trying to disabuse myself of because now I have acquired some acquaintances, if not friends, who, although I don't share my sad and sorry past. Then intellectual friends or just friends in the community. So, and you know, I feel like they don't need to know everything. You know. [00:25:50]

Sometimes I feel like they're judging me and they're I feel like telling them, you know, I don't have it easy and all of that, you know? I feel like I don't need to do that. Well, I mean, I guess I could get an objective way of saying such things. I was at the other day and you meet this new friend. She's new there and apparently she told them she was married for some time and she's divorced now. So, I mean not that, I wasn't there when she told him that, so I don't know if she was saying look, I've been through some hard stuff, but now I'm doing okay. I don't know. You know, like I just kind of don't understand that. If you tell people that right away, I mean what's the purpose of telling them you're divorced? You know, not everyone broadcasts this information, you know. We know another person who doesn't know we know that she has been divorced. She comes across very intellectual. Very, you know, strong and this and that and it's just that a mutual friend who has known her much longer told us this and everyone wants to cash in or whatever on their difficult past that they've made it through or you know they faced difficulties, but some people it becomes such a part of their identity or something. I don't know, but. It's like I'm also considering how much of my past should be, not necessarily affected by, but to present to allow it to become my identity, you know? [00:27:55]

THERAPIST: When you say cash in, who is one or you or anyone cashing in to?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, you're saying cash in on your, you know, if some difficulty or trauma, trouble would it, who are you cashing in to? Who's going to give you the cash? You're going to give, cashing in means you give them something you can cash. Who's getting the cash?

CLIENT: This is mean of me, but yeah, I don't know what I meant.

THERAPIST: Well, it's, I mean it's an interesting expression. To cash in on. [00:28:32]

CLIENT: Like what I do like to gain people's sympathy. Getting sympathy, friendship, connect on a deeper level. Yes, it's very tied to my being I remember like when I told Jeremy, my freshman boyfriend, you know, some of the things that happened to me and he didn't say those things like and until he said something and I didn't feel it, you know, I didn't feel the connection, the love and all of that, you know. Like he was just, you know, this really, really funny guy from downstairs and all of us were hanging out with him and, you know, he'd make us all laugh and he found me whatever, interesting or attractive and then I, we shared stuff one night and I suppose after that we felt a connection. You know he felt, he said some very sweet things, like, you know I wish I could take care of you or, you know, whatever like give you a nice childhood this and that. Until he said those things I didn't feel close to him and a connection on a deeper level. I guess which is why some of the dates that I went to last year I was going through that and I didn't feel anything because there was no occasion to share my past, you know. And obviously you don't do that on dates and stuff. You present your best self. You try to. Yeah. [00:30:35]

THERAPIST: What did it feel like once you had that connection with Jeremy?

CLIENT: It felt very nice. I kind of miss him. I guess I felt some kind of redemption, you know. Like, finally, you know? You know, like you suffer or something you've gone through. You know, it's like, it's like the meal that you get to relish after a very hard work out, you know. Like yes, I've earned this. Or you work in a mine and you're all dirty and everything and then you're given your, not just your measly pay check, but, you know, you're maybe given a diamond. I suppose I felt that same thing when, you know, Victor said something similar about. I'm over it now. I thought I'd never forget it. Something I'm sure will come to me, but like an acknowledgement of, you know, my suffering and what not. Why do people need that? Why do you need an acknowledgement for your suffering? [00:32:35]

THERAPIST: Because even if you had to endure something on your own you don't have to be alone anymore and the acknowledgement.

CLIENT: So, you say it's got to do with loneliness?

THERAPIST: Maybe in part. I mean I feel like suffering, by definition, there's a particular kind of isolation involved. It's not an experience usually. Even if people suffer as a group, it's usually a very isolated, it's not a communal. It doesn't, it doesn't generate communal feelings. It can be very lonely and isolating and, you know, and scary too which I think makes people feel more isolated or maybe they feel scared because they feel isolated. So, I think in the acknowledgement alone, it helps people feel less alone and also recognized, not hidden.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't know. How does that sound? [00:33:40]

CLIENT: Yeah. Not hidden. Recognized. Those things I think I want. To be seen and to be recognized.

THERAPIST: But, it's complicated. I mean people share things for all sorts of reasons. People share problems or difficulties in their past to share them and to get to know someone and we get to know them. People share things also to coerce someone in to getting something, right? Motivations are very complicated.

CLIENT: So, you're saying the first thing is alright, but the second, not so much?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Absolutely. That's it.

CLIENT: That doesn't mean, you know, there must be. You know, we all abuse things and use them, so.

THERAPIST: Are you not sure? When you ask that, you're asking what or you're wondering what I'm saying? Do you have, do you come to thoughts? I mean imagine you are imagining what I'm saying. This is good and this is bad has something to do with what you think is good or bad. [00:34:50]

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, like I said, I feel like I don't have a realistic sense of things or right and wrong sometimes. So, yeah.

THERAPIST: But you're coming to those conclusions about right or wrong and wondering, when you wonder whether I think this is good or I think this is bad, you're asking those questions based on some feeling you have yourself. Some judgment you have in yourself about, you know, about what I'm saying.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Are you saying this is good? Well, clearly part of you thinks it's good. Otherwise, you wouldn't have come up with the fact that I might think it's good.

CLIENT: Like maybe in that also I'm looking for recognition. [00:36:00]

THERAPIST: Well, do you feel like the only way to get recognition is to fly too high or too low? Maybe the middle ground doesn't feel very, like you'd be recognized.

CLIENT: What is, what is the middle ground? Just being?

THERAPIST: I don't know what the middle is. I'm using your words. I don't know what it is. Is that what it is? Being?

CLIENT: I feel like it is. Maybe that's my goal. To feel comfortable in my skin enough to just be. You know, let myself be and see the other people also. That's all that they want from me and they don't want like a fantastically sad story and they don't want a super, super, happy person, you know, who has no faults at all and is lecturing and going all the time. It's too extreme. I would like, you know, I see other people, you know, I'm just, I'm happy to see them. Not everyone, but, you know, most people. What do I want from them? I just, you know, want them to, well, this is a very complicated question because I want very different things at different times. You know, like generally, just, you know, I hope that they're doing well and well I shouldn't say that. I want a lot from people. I want them to be interesting and engaging and happy and sad. Not all the time. [00:37:50]

But I do want to be able to not pity myself. You know, I'm not and to minimize like this like sad process such a part of my identity, you know. Because maybe there are other positive things that I have been able to create since then that are sufficient for me to feel good about, you know, and that people like as well, you know.

THERAPIST: I mean to feel that you can only be recognized by being abject is complicated.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe unfortunate.

CLIENT: Yeah, but why did my professor want to know that, you know?

THERAPIST: Want to know your past?

CLIENT: Yeah, like my background. [00:38:52]

THERAPIST: Maybe he's just interested.

CLIENT: Yeah. Why?

THERAPIST: It seems like you were thinking he had an angle.

CLIENT: No. I'm just wondering like so it is important for people. You know, it's like me trying to say oh, you know, I'm not going to use my past and then here's someone who's a figure of authority and everything must think no, don't get rid of her just yet. But, it was different because, you know, I would reveal this kind of information to a potential friend or, you know, like a potential boyfriend. You know, people in authority, you want them to think well of you. You know, like you don't go and tell this to your boss, you know? You want them to think you're efficient and hardworking and smart and all that. I mean all I wanted to know about him is that he's a great writer, you know, and a great teacher of writing. That's all. I don't want to know that he has had a sad past. Do you think it's possible for me to pity myself less? [00:40:55]

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: I don't know. To me, like that's what his question meant. When he said acknowledge, maybe that's what he was saying. You should pity yourself. Maybe not as strongly as pity, but something similar. Because I am conflicted about it. You know, sometimes I don't want to acknowledge it. Sometimes I want to feel free and unburdened and that, you know, I could do anything and I have no responsibilities. Then the other extreme is to feel completely bogged down and, you know, and no vision or like completely debilitated by that thing. [00:42:10]

I really like it when my mom dresses up and like takes showers or, you know, does something adult and responsible. Do we, are we out of time?

THERAPIST: We've got a minute or so left. What do you think brought that to mind? [00:43:35]

CLIENT: Well, I was just wondering if I would, how much do I like the emotional or need the emotional pity? I mean when she doesn't do any of that, when she's needy and, you know, shabby, I feel very acutely pitiful, you know. That's a very, very powerful emotion that can, you know, reduce me to tears. But, it can also debilitate me and that means she does the opposite. It's not as strong an emotion, but it's more subtle. I guess it adds slowly. Like, you know, several, maybe several days of her acting that way and I'll feel slowly differently about her situation and not so debilitated, you know. I'm just wondering what these two different emotions. One very, very acute and strong and I can feel it, you know, so strongly. The other is kind of mild.

THERAPIST: Well, certainly evoking pity from someone is a very strong experience. When pity has been evoked, it's a very intense experience.

CLIENT: I mean there is a place for it, I'm sure, but maybe not on a daily basis. [00:45:05]

THERAPIST: The other experience you described is more subtle and more peaceful.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Less urgent.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: We are going to stop for today, okay? I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay. Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Thank you again for calling your insurance company. I appreciate it.

CLIENT: Yeah, no problem.

THERAPIST: That's okay. Take care.

CLIENT: You too.

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