TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

CLIENT: Sorry. (Pause) (Exhaling) Oh God. (Pause) How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you. [0:06:00]

CLIENT: (Exhaling, sniffing) Just a few minutes late (chuckling). My mom's staying over, so it's a little crazy (chuckling). She hurt her back yesterday (chuckling), so she's kind of not able to move at all (sniffing). (Pause) (Sighing) [0:07:00] I can't remember what we were talking about last time. I don't know (sniffing). Kind of (inaudible at 0:07:17) (chuckling). No, but I've been working. I just forgot to check my e-mail and... or look at notes from previous... I guess I can talk about this weekend. I had a bit of an up and down (chuckling). It's very, very dramatic, the ups and down... well, the downs are more dramatic than the ups, but it's just been really busy with a lot of things. [0:08:02] And then the intensity of keeping busy and being involved in so many different things makes me feel useful, and I'm doing something (sighing).

And then on Friday night there was this event, like an open mic thing. And I was invited. I don't know these people that well, but I thought I'd go. And then I decided I'd read something. I was thinking the best thing to do in such a crowd is to read something funny, something short and funny. I don't usually produced funny stuff? My stuff is usually heavy and all that, poignant... or that's my goal anyways. [0:08:59] But Chris's (?) always said, you're so funny, you make me laugh. So you should do something funny, so I thought I'd give it a try, [a bit of a set] (ph), produced something satirical. And I had two or three hours, so I just produced something. And... just to give myself a challenge, trying something new, or... like, can I have clarity, and can I make my prose really well-edited and well-structured? And it came out really nice. And I read it, and it took me, like, fifteen... ten to fifteen minutes to read it out. And everyone was listening, and everyone was laughing and having such a good time. And Chris was impressed, and he was like, how long have you been working on it? I said, like, just, you know, when you went to (inaudible at 0:09:52), like, two hours. And he was, like, that's really good, and people in the crowd compared me to, oh, this bestseller book. [0:10:02] You're like her...

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, like...?

CLIENT: This book that this... I don't know if you've heard of it, but it was on the bestseller list, and it's like a... this woman produces satirical stuff. It's like David Sedaris, kind of. She's not as popular because she just started. So it just felt really good, that I could do something like this. I was happy that I tried something new and kind of wasn't stuck, you know? And miserable and all that. So that was nice on Friday.

But then Saturday was a complete... I was so down, just such a big change. (Pause) [0:10:59] Just, I don't know, suddenly just some of the things that Victor (sp?) had said to me came back to me. And I was just miserable. I was crying, and (sighing, chuckling, sniffing) after a long time I visited his page. I was looking at some of his photos, and I realized this girl that he is supposedly seeing... I mean, I know about it because I can put two and two together, but he's not very public about it or anything. But she's gone ahead and liked every single one of his photos (laughing). It was just... I was just a bit surprised by that. I felt very angry and jealous and all that (sniffing) even though I had no reason to. [0:11:57]

And she changed her own profile picture, and she has that look, you know? Like that sex daze that... I can just tell, you know (chuckling)? And I was just feeling so stupid that... like, wow. I mean, she moved to the area in December, and already... and he's still in Nepal, I think. And they've met for, like, a month, and she's already head over heels in love with him or something. I mean, right? I mean, who would do that? Isn't that peculiar to go and like someone's... all of someone's profile photos (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: I've never used Facebook. I have no idea.

CLIENT: What (laughing)?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) I will take your word for it.

CLIENT: (Laughing) Why don't you use Facebook? We can talk [crosstalk].

THERAPIST: I don't... [0:12:59]

CLIENT: You're missing out on all the craziness (laughing).

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: Well,(inaudible at 0:13:10), Chris keeps saying, don't use it, don't use it! I'm like... unimaginable not to (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Do you take my not using it as a sort of sign that you shouldn't either, like, it's not morally upright to do that?

CLIENT: No, no (chuckling). I can think of a lot of good uses of Facebook, so (laughing)...

THERAPIST: I know. It's a very good way of keeping in touch with people.

CLIENT: Yeah, but not just keeping in touch, like, promoting stuff? So I've joined this new group of... a women's initiative in the area, and we're doing a panel discussion on this very famous case in Nepal that's picking up a lot of women (ph). And a lot of them are protesting all over the world for this woman, so...

THERAPIST: Who was raped and then died, right? [0:13:59]

CLIENT: No, not this... actually, yeah, that has...

THERAPIST: But didn't that happen?

CLIENT: Yeah, it did in December, but this other woman, she's a tribal. And she's been held for absolutely ridiculous charges. They're not true at all. It's just the state is taking... it's just... because they live in mineral-rich areas, these tribals, and the government wants the minerals. The government wants all these multinational companies to go in and basically just take all these resources for development purposes and just... they just want the tribals to disappear, and we're talking about millions of people. Anyway, so we're doing this event, and sort of promoting this on Facebook (sighing).

THERAPIST: How did...? Did you just go...? How did you learn that she had liked all of Victor's pictures? Do you go on his site frequently?

CLIENT: On his page. No, I've stopped going on his page. It had been a few weeks (chuckling), so...

THERAPIST: What point... after you sort of did this reading, what point after that did you go on his page?

CLIENT: I guess that evening or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know, I just... Saturday just started weirdly. [I heard] (ph)... I made friends with this woman, she's a journalist. She's a friend of another friend who's... who I think very highly of, she's a historian, her book just came out. But this woman needs some help with some translations and stuff, so she asked me. [0:16:01] And suddenly I realized... I just said to myself, you know, you are like tier three or four or five, and you want to be in tier two or one. And you're not. And people like these people are in tier one (chuckling). I just told myself that and I felt very sad.

And then we... she'd won this award that... I mean, she won like the senior level of that award, but I'd applied for it, and I didn't get it. This was, like, two years ago. I mean, there's many reasons why I didn't get it because they don't give it to people who are already... it's like a travel grant, and they don't give it to you if you've already... if you already are from that place and you say you want to go there. So, I mean, there could be many reasons, but... not just to do with my abilities. [0:17:04]

And then (sighing) we were making plans (ph), and Chris was like, will you stop hovering around? Or something he said, and I just felt very awkward and judged. He was like, I can't not say anything. I can't not be... I can't be nice to you all the time. And I was like, that's true, but maybe that's why I'm getting therapy, so you can (chuckling) be normal around me.

THERAPIST: And what's the connection between your being in therapy and him being normal?

CLIENT: Oh, I told him, I feel judged, you know? I'm feeling awkward right now. And when you told me not to hover I felt weird. And then he was like, well, I can't be nice to you all the time. [0:18:00] Well, not like that, but (sniffing), I mean, he can't treat me like a porcelain doll. So that's why I said, well, you know, that's the reason why I'm getting therapy, so I don't have to be so insecure all... so that I don't feel insecure all the time.

THERAPIST: Hmm. How did you feel, like he was being not nice to you?

CLIENT: Well, I just... I was just feeling like... I was feeling very low about myself, and I think of him as being in several tiers above me (chuckling). So I felt, I don't know, very meek, very small (chuckling). I wanted to disappear, but there I was hovering (chuckling). [0:19:00]

THERAPIST: Over him?

CLIENT: Well, it's very... we have a very small kitchen, and he was making... and I wasn't helping, which is not to say that I... he's the only one who could cook. I mean, I cook, too. And he doesn't feel like he's hovering (chuckling). I don't know if I'm making sense.

THERAPIST: Yes, I think I'm following you. I guess I'm trying to understand the connection between feeling really good about yourself and getting all of this recognition and compliments to feeling really terrible about yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's what I'm trying to understand.

CLIENT: I can't understand it (chuckling).

THERAPIST: At what point did that shift take place?

CLIENT: The night was over, the reading was over, we went to bed. I was exhausted from working so hard. [0:19:58] And I woke up, and it was Saturday, and then I saw... you know, this woman had won the award. And I told myself, those are people who get the awards, not me. So then that's (chuckling)... then I felt bad again. (Pause)

THERAPIST: How did you feel about her getting the award? Did you feel she deserved it?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, she's been published, and she's been... I mean, yeah. [0:20:56] (Sighing)

THERAPIST: That's not quite... maybe that's your answer. That's not quite an answer.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Do you think she deserved it? Well, she's had other accomplishments. Wasn't it based on your performance?

CLIENT: Yeah. What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, if two people are performing and an award is given for performance, other people's past achievements don't seem a direct correlation to that.

CLIENT: I don't understand, sorry (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Well, if two people run a race and one of the people is known to be a good runner, why does it matter if...? What does that... how does that influence who wins the race? Their history, if they're being evaluated on their performance for a given time.

CLIENT: Yeah. So... meaning?

THERAPIST: Well, I didn't... you were making the connection. I said, do you think she deserved it based on her performance? [0:22:03] And you said, well, she's had success.

CLIENT: No, but that... I guess they look at that, right?

THERAPIST: I see. I didn't understand that.

CLIENT: Oh, are you saying that they look at the proposal?

THERAPIST: I didn't... yeah, I didn't understand. Was this the performance that you did, or is it...? I don't understand. Was it a performance, or was it a write...?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Didn't you perform it? Because people liked it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it was a performance?

CLIENT: Oh (chuckling).

THERAPIST: I guess I didn't understand what it was.

CLIENT: No, this is completely... this is an open mic thing I did.

THERAPIST: Right, right.

CLIENT: But the award is much bigger(chuckling).

THERAPIST: I see. I see, I didn't understand the connection.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so when did you find out about that?

CLIENT: Just Saturday morning.

THERAPIST: I got it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, now I get it. So you had this great achievement on Friday night, and then Saturday morning you learned that you didn't get the award.

CLIENT: No, I didn't apply for the award this year. I applied two years ago.

THERAPIST: I see. [0:22:57]

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah. I just... I didn't decide to apply to the... I mean, I knew the award, and I wanted to... well, I didn't apply to it previously because I wanted to go to Nepal. And I'd heard that, if you're already from there-and I've lived there 15 years-they would not take my application.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Got it.

CLIENT: But I applied anyways, and I didn't get it. And that could be a reason, I'm saying, but it also could be that whatever. So...

THERAPIST: Did her accomplishment then make you feel that your accomplishment the night before was less?

CLIENT: What I guess I was thinking was the... well, I guess I was... I don't know. I was trying to see... I mean, well, I wasn't thinking, you know? [0:23:51] I was just feeling, so what I felt I guess was, I should just be happy with little achievements like local open mic things instead of setting my sites up too high or expecting too much or... I don't know. I just felt, like I said earlier in the top tiers... and I'm not... I don't belong there (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Because I don't have the same achievements. (Pause)

THERAPIST: But your life isn't over.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: What came to my mind is being stuck in a particular caste system.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:24:57]

THERAPIST: Like that's how you feel. If you're of a particular caste, it kind of doesn't matter what you do. You're sort of stuck in that caste. When you said tier, that's what came to my mind.

CLIENT: Yeah, hmm. (Pause) Well, I just... I was really very... I took it very hard when I learned I didn't get the award two years ago. And I'd learned about it only through this colleague at MSU, she'd applied for it. [0:25:55] And she was actually, like, the worst of our group. And I'm not making it my own judgment. This was the professors'. They were like... because we were workshopping together. And every time the professor would actually be very, very mean to her and just say, you cannot do this, you cannot... and she actually cried, it was that bad. But they wrote her a recommendation for an award, and she applied months before it was due. And it takes a lot of research. You have to contact your... the country in which you want to travel and get them... get educational institutions to write you recommendations letters as well and come up with a snazzy kind of project. And she got it (chuckling). And I was like, oh, maybe I could get it, too. But I didn't apply that year. I didn't apply the next year. But the following year I did. [0:26:56] And yeah, I didn't get it, and... despite being told that I was better, this and that.

But it could just be that she... it's very diplomatic, all these things that... I wanted to go to Nepal, and they only have a certain number of scholars that go there. And they have preferences. It was very, very regulated. Like, they'll only take people who are interested in certain subjects and favor those over others, and... yeah. And for her country that she wanted to travel to she hadn't (ph) lived there in... for a long time, as long as I'd lived in Nepal. So (sighing) all these considerations are there. You're supposed to take those into account and not take things personally. But it's like, at the end of the day (chuckling), it's like, she got it, I didn't. [0:27:59] Her credentials are much stronger now than mine are. But then I'm like, how much of my credentials not being strong have to do with my psychological problems, my putting myself down and not even trying things (chuckling)? And I feel sad about that.

THERAPIST: What about that makes you sad?

CLIENT: Well, just the potential, like, I could do stuff, you know? I mean, try different things and see what I'm good at instead of just putting myself in a box, like, in a coffin and just being (ph) like, okay, that's it (chuckling). I can't do anything.

THERAPIST: Hmm, in a coffin? Not just a box.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Well, might as well be a coffin because it's like, you're practically dead, you think. You can't do anything. [0:29:05]

THERAPIST: But clearly there's something in you to, say, go to the open mic night and read something that you wrote, that there's some life. You're not in a coffin at those moments.

CLIENT: Yeah. I just wish I could prolong those moments or just have more of them (chuckling). It's like something happens to me. I just pull the rug from under my own feet and make myself fall.

THERAPIST: Hmm. At what point did you decide to look at Victor's profile?

CLIENT: I don't know. (inaudible at 0:29:45) and... I don't know (sighing). I had a lot of work to do on Saturday, so I was doing that. [0:30:02] And then I had to go meet someone. Maybe it was before I went out and? Or after I came back. I don't know. (Pause) (Sniffing)

THERAPIST: I asked because I'm trying to sort of follow the sequence of your feeling really good about your accomplishment and getting a lot of recognition to the next day feeling badly, that... sort of that's a drop in the bucket compared to more prestigious things, and then seeking Victor out. So I was sort of just thinking about that progression, sort of what happens.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, maybe it's like a destructive kind of a tendency to throw it all away. (Pause) [0:30:56] I think I sought him out like that last year when I'd given up hope of everything (chuckling, sniffing). (Pause) But now maybe it's, I'm seeking him out digitally not... electronically, not physically or anything, because I know it will cause pain. Maybe there is a tendency in me to harm myself psychologically (chuckling). I mean, there must be. If I tell myself all these negative things, then I must want to hurt myself like that (chuckling). (Pause) [0:32:00] Yeah, I think... I mean, he is a source of pain now, I suppose (chuckling). (Pause) It's funny how that happens. Like, people are a source of joy for you, and then, when things go bad, they become a source of pain.

THERAPIST: And what's the pain you feel when you look at his profile? [0:32:57]

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know, like, rejected and dumped and (chuckling) not good enough and all the things that he said. Not deserving of his love. (Pause) (Sniffing, sneezing)

THERAPIST: Bless you.

CLIENT: Thanks (sniffing). (Pause) [0:33:59] I guess at those times I really fear for myself. I feel like (sniffing), am I [a part of this] (ph), but will nothing be enough? Will nothing satisfy me? You know, working so hard (sniffing) and trying different things and trying to be a part of different causes and trying to meet new people as much as I can, you know? Despite all the constraints of my time and all that. And still, it's like, the next day it just gets wiped off (chuckling), literally, you know? (Pause) (Sniffing)

THERAPIST: It's almost like you get erased, like you have no permanence.

CLIENT: What do you mean (blowing nose)?

THERAPIST: Like, when you talk about the next day getting wiped off, it's like... I don't know, you get erased, like, who you are. You're just... or what you are sort of... that what's left is someone who is kind of at the bottom. [0:35:08]

CLIENT: Hmm. At the bottom?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like, by Saturday, you're at the bottom.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Everyone does better than you, everything you've done doesn't really count. So much of you is erased.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you're like... when I think about tiers, I also think, like, on the lowest rung of a ladder?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know why that happens (chuckling), but [I feel it happen] (ph). And I'm... the ramifications are dangerous, I think. (Chuckling) [0:35:56] I got drunk on Saturday... well, drunk as in... not that drunk, but... and I think I was dancing by myself and did something with my neck. I couldn't move it (laughing). And I think Chris came back. He'd gone to visit some friends. He came back after midnight, and he's telling me, you were crying so much and (chuckling)...

THERAPIST: What were you crying for?

CLIENT: I think... I don't know, Victor and the rest of my... and me (chuckling, sniffing). (Pause) [0:37:00] I guess it happens to people like me. Like, you get a little something, but either it's not enough or they're just so insecure or not confident about themselves, that the next day they think, oh, I don't know, whatever. It's not good enough, or (chuckling)... (Pause) [0:38:00] It's like there's no stability, no permanence to who you are. It's so fluid. It changes from moment to moment. And you can't really build anything when you're like that, you know? I don't know what you (ph) want to build, but it just... yeah, seems very shaky. I guess build relationships (chuckling). (Pause) [0:39:00] (Sniffing, sighing)

Chris said, I just shouldn't leave you for too long, and... you know (chuckling)? [0:39:59] Just like, yeah, that's exactly what (inaudible at 0:40:06). Funny because, you know, I feel relieved, and I feel excited in maybe the wrong way, doing my own thing. He kept making me feel bad about not going with him to his friend's place. But I was happy that I had something of my own to do because that... they're just all his colleagues and a bunch of professors. And, I mean, they're great and smart and everything. But I had my own thing to do, and I like that. But it also literally puts distance between him and... Chris and me (sighing). [0:41:01] (Pause)

THERAPIST: It upsets him to see you like that.

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling). It upsets me more (chuckling). I don't want to... I guess I want to get to the bottom of why I am like that. [0:42:02] How much of it can I change, and how much of it won't change, you know? (Pause) Positivity just doesn't stick. It's like a thing, like a... some... that I'm made of or I have kind of an oil surface or something (chuckling). Water just slips right off (chuckling). [0:43:00] It doesn't' permeate. It doesn't let seeds grow (chuckling). (Pause) Is this just like self-deprecation, or is it something more (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, you know, just not letting positivity sink in. Like, that's how you build. That's how you get better at what you want to do, you know, take baby steps. [0:43:56] And you acknowledge and account for the successes that you have. But to me it just seems like a great wind blows, and it just goes right off. So I have to start from scratch. I guess that's what you mean by being on the bottom tier. And I look at myself like that. I haven't made any progress. I'm still here. I'm still stuck.

THERAPIST: Well, your accomplishments become meaningless.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know why (chuckling). (Pause) It's like I deliberately wanted to hurt myself. Like... I don't mean in a dramatic way of cutting myself or anything like that. [0:44:57] But drinking and (laughing) I don't know, head-banging? I don't know what I did (laughing), just completely stiff now.

THERAPIST: You know, Cecelia (sp?), we're going to... I do hope you feel better, but we're going to have to stop for today.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Thanks, yeah.

THERAPIST: And I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: All right, thank you.

THERAPIST: Your purse is there.

CLIENT: Oh, thank you.

THERAPIST: Great. Take care, bye bye.

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