TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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(Pause)

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. [0:01:01]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:01:09) (Pause) (Blowing nose) How are you?

THERAPIST: I'm sorry?

CLIENT: No, I said, how are you?

THERAPIST: Oh, good, thank you.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) (Pause) [0:01:59] (Sniffing) I'm doing okay, I suppose.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry? I can't... I'm having a hard time hearing you.

CLIENT: Oh, I said, I'm doing okay (chuckling). (Pause) [I'm tired of talking about me] (ph). (Pause) I had an okay day at school yesterday. I'm doing an independent study with a historian (inaudible at 0:02:57). [0:02:58] So for my project I'm going to [be doing] (ph) books with her, and she's helping me do research. So that's very (inaudible at 0:03:10). There's so much that's not been written about, and I was just wondering if maybe after I've (inaudible at 0:03:22) maybe I could study history (chuckling), go back to graduate school, but this time for a degree that I don't have (chuckling), a subject I have not studied. (Sniffing) (Pause) Let's see. [0:04:00] Yeah, she... I have to write a response for every book that we read. And yesterday she was saying, you should get some of these published (chuckling), as book reviews. And I liked that she had thought they were decent enough to get published (ph) (chuckling). (Pause) (inaudible at 0:04:30).

I don't like the workshop at all. All these anxieties of people not liking me are just there all the time for three hours. And that's very daunting to be at the edge of your seat for three hours (chuckling). [0:04:59] Facing all of that [wasn't a good thought] (ph). (Sighing) (Pause) I just keep thinking, these people don't like me. And I tell myself, that's okay of they don't. I have my own group now. I mean, not as (inaudible at 0:05:41) at least some people that I see on a weekly basis. (Pause) [0:06:00] There's a conference that the department is also taking part in. It's like a national level conference, and the professors here, they've put me on a panel with this visiting writer (sneezing).

THERAPIST: Bless you.

CLIENT: Thank you. I was telling my colleagues about that yesterday, and all of them were like (ph) as if I was telling them about something so uninteresting and boring or mundane. They just looked so blank (sniffing). They're blank all the time (chuckling). That's what... it's just like... and I was feeling so disappointed, like (inaudible at 0:06:49) even though this is your department and your (inaudible at 0:06:53). We're talking about work or some aspect of it. They have absolutely no interest in anything (laughing). [0:07:04] I mean, they seem to me like undergraduates who are not... seem interested in anything (blowing nose). (Pause) (Sniffing)

Yeah, I guess I want to find a place where I can be useful and where I shine, and people aren't all weirded out by that or... there's no... or there's not too much politics. It seems like I still haven't found that kind of... [0:07:59] (Pause) I don't know. I don't know what happens. I don't trust people, or I hold them up to a high standard, and they fail or judge myself too much [because I don't] (ph)... but finding the sort of people you can... yeah, you like for a long period of time, it just doesn't happen with me (chuckling). I don't know why. (Pause) [0:09:00] [0:10:00] (Sniffing, clearing throat, sighing, sniffing) [0:11:00]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: Nothing much (laughing). (Pause) Yeah, I just... (Pause) I don't know. I don't know what to focus on (chuckling). (Pause) [0:12:00] I don't know why I get so affected by other people's behavior. Maybe I shouldn't. I mean, I shouldn't (chuckling). (Pause) (Sniffing) [0:13:00] (Chuckling) I've just been thinking about the workshop. There's this woman I don't like in there. She used to be a friend, but we had a falling out. I might have mentioned this to you. And yeah, just recently, [since this] (ph) new semester, it's just, like, I want to slap her. She just makes me so mad (chuckling).

She got the flu, and the first week she didn't come when I was handing out my submission. [0:13:57] But I put it in her mailbox. She couldn't get it. And she's like, [I'd really appreciate if you could please] (ph) send me an electronic version. I couldn't bear this part of the workshop, and I don't feel comfortable sharing. It's like, it could end up anywhere, you know (sniffing)? So I didn't reply to that. And then the week of... when my submission was discussed, and she absolutely had nothing to say. She's like, I just [got it] (ph).

And two weeks later she still hadn't answered. And I was like, give it back. You're supposed to... it's your duty to comment and give it back the week of the discussion. Okay, you didn't get it, so give it to me the next week. Nothing. I had to ask... I had to beg for my own manuscript. And she's like, oh, I can't do it next week because I'm turning in my submission. I'm like, just give it back without comment. [0:14:56] What... I mean, I don't expect you to give me any useful comments anyway, so... because she hadn't done that in the past. The manuscript's completely clean. There's not a single word on it.

And yesterday, she was being discussed. And I was... I had decided not to... to return the favor and not give her any comment at all. But I couldn't help myself. I was like, that's too mean, I shouldn't do that. So I commented. But she didn't say thank you. She didn't say anything. I guess she's not supposed to, but I just expect that. And the teacher was... he brought in a book for her and was being nice (inaudible at 0:15:41). I was so annoyed by that (chuckling). It's completely irrational, but... (Pause) [0:16:00] Just like, why aren't you nice to me? Why don't you suggest books to me? [Maybe he thinks I don't need it] (ph), but that's not true. (Pause) (Sniffing)

I don't know why I get so belligerent (chuckling). [0:16:57] For... I don't know, attention or something? (Pause) I guess I get surprised that... am I that needy? I didn't think I was. (Pause) I'm like, if I'm not that needy, then why am I not just content in giving feedback? And why does it bother me so much that she hasn't given feedback or she hasn't been friendly or she hasn't done this, this, and this? Why am I holding her to that and finding her falling short? And why is that bothering me so much? So she's sneaky (ph) and she's not as disciplined and attentive. I mean, that's not a crime or... [0:18:00] (Pause) I mean, there are all sorts of people out there. People are actually dumb. They're actually stupid (laughing). (Pause) And when I read a new book, (inaudible at 0:18:30) (chuckling, sniffing). Seems like I'm spending a lot of time getting overawed by smart and underwhelmed by the stupids (chuckling) instead of just focusing on myself.

THERAPIST: You see... you sort of see yourself and other people very much in a hierarchy. [0:19:01]

CLIENT: Yeah, like, I'm above some and below some.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So there supposed to be like a level ground or...? (Pause) Is that my goal or...?

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: I thought Victor (sp?) would say, no, it's normal to think in a hierarchy. We all do that to some extent (chuckling, sniffing). (Pause) Why do I have this hierarchy so much? (Pause) [0:20:00] Do some people just think of others without classifying them or...?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: (Laughing) Really? You do?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You think of me as an equal?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: In some sense.

THERAPIST: Sure. (Pause)

CLIENT: You don't think I have less or I have more or...?

THERAPIST: No. I think people bring to the table different talents, different vulnerabilities, different strengths, different... yeah. [0:21:00]

CLIENT: Well, that's very mature (laughing). (Pause) Why do I think the other way? (Pause) (Sniffing) It's quite nice, it's quite liberating not to think that way. It's quite fun (chuckling). But... (Pause) Maybe it comes from my dad perhaps? (Pause) I mean, he was very judgmental. [0:21:58] And [it really] (ph) horrified me to even try to remember the way he was, not just with me but with everybody. He made our life so miserable because of that, because of his attitude.

THERAPIST: How is he judgmental?

CLIENT: Well, for... yeah, he was always judging us all the time. You couldn't breathe without having him judge. And my mom was supposed to be not clean, not a good housekeeper. Yeah, everything. She couldn't do this properly or that properly. And these were his words. So... and she has a very severe inferiority complex now. She can't... she's very unsure of herself in every single thing. [0:22:58] Like, the littlest thing. She has no opinions of where to go to eat, for example.

THERAPIST: So he was judgmental but in particular putting people down.

CLIENT: Yeah, and we couldn't hang out with anybody. Any of my friends, any friends that I made... first of all I wasn't allowed to go out and play when he was around. And even up until we came here, one of my... somehow I made a friend, and she came over. And he was like... and my dad just woke up from his nap. And she and I were just in my room, and he just started cursing as he walked down the stairs. I mean, I remember that moment so much, and it really horrifies me because I'm just like, oh my God, what is she going to think? And later on I learned that her father was just as abusive (chuckling). [0:23:58] But still, it's like I think my honor was destroyed in that moment. (Sniffing) I want to present a good front, that I'm a nice person and sweet and funny, whatever. I mean, this was when I was 15 or something. And I was so horrified by that, that here's my father cursing and not wearing a shirt and walking down... (Chuckling) I don't want that. Take it away. And I was like, I want bright, cheerful, and sunny (laughing), happy. (Pause) [I don't know if I explained that well] (ph), but yeah.

And everybody was either bad or not up to his standard, below. [0:25:06] It's... yeah. Or if they were better then they were unkind and selfish and they didn't want our best. So my uncles, my mom's brothers, they were well off. But... so according to my dad they're selfish, and they don't... because they don't send my mother money (chuckling). And they're not supposed to anyway, but anyone else that I meet... say, for example, that girl in my school or... they're not good enough. And this was the case throughout my childhood no matter where we lived (chuckling). [0:25:59] So... (Pause)

And Chris is judgmental, too. I mean, I'm living with him, so... (Pause) I also kind of sense that he doesn't think too, too... well, I mean, he says he does, but he can be condescending a little bit, too. Well, not condescending. Dismissive, without being aware of it. (Pause) [0:27:00] But I... this discussion and this woman, she was talking and asking questions. And apparently she had a very corporate vocabulary? I didn't notice it because I'm not attuned to that. But she's also a dancer, and... yeah, so at the end of the discussion Chris... I mean, they were all standing around, and Chris asked this girl, where did you learn to talk like that (chuckling)? She was like, I don't know (chuckling). I was like, what do you mean? Where did you learn to talk like that (chuckling)? I thought it was a bit rude, a bit too forward. [0:27:57] I mean, he hadn't spoken to her at all. He didn't know her at all, and he didn't know her name. So he goes up to her and says... (Pause) (Chuckling) I mean, it was supposed to be a light moment, but I wouldn't have prefaced... I wouldn't have said that to someone I didn't know.

THERAPIST: It's kind of aggressive.

CLIENT: Yeah, and he's not usually... he's not known to be aggressive. (Pause) So yeah, I was thinking between my father and now him, Chris, seems to be judgmental world. So...

THERAPIST: Two people? You're extrapolating the world from two people?

CLIENT: Yeah, but look at my world. It's really... I mean, these are... one was a father, this is a boyfriend of seven years, come on (laughing). [0:29:01]

THERAPIST: I understand. In your world...

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: There are judgmental people.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, they're very influential people for me.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: (Laughing) So... I mean, I would love to... I mean, I agree what you're saying, two people does not make a world. [And I should] (ph)... it can be so much bigger. But the reason why maybe I'm judgmental is because my world really was small (sniffing). (Pause) But how do I exorcise myself of these two people's way of looking at things? (Pause) [0:30:00] (Sniffing) That is why I was kind of relieved (inaudible at 0:30:38) Victor doesn't seem to judge. He seems to look at people at a level... all at one level. But I'm thinking it's only because he can have access to as many women (laughing). [0:30:58] But... I mean, that's not the only reason, but... [and then] (ph) he has all these other problems. (Pause) Well, but it really was a relief, like an actual physical relief, like, oh, thank you, you know (chuckling)? It's like someone's loosened a really tight bra (laughing). Like, ah, I can breathe (laughing). (Pause) I can see more things, taking off blinders. (Pause) [0:32:00] (Sniffing) [0:33:00] But aside from judging people do you think I also expect too much from them? (Pause) [0:33:58] And then, if they don't meet that expectation, then I judge them.

THERAPIST: I feel like your questions are often statements.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, they're a question at the end, a question mark (laughing).

THERAPIST: I understand that you... I understand that they are structurally questions, grammatically questions. But you have an idea, and clearly it's your idea. And you think that it's partially true, you wouldn't have come up with the idea. But then you don't own the idea.

CLIENT: Well (chuckling)... well, each question's an idea, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah, but you don't say, I wonder if, or I think that...

CLIENT: I just truncate that.

THERAPIST: Right, but it's sort of like, rather than it being your idea, you want me to endorse it or not.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. I mean, there's questions like that. [0:34:59]

THERAPIST: But why should I have that authority? It's your idea, and you think there's some merit to it.

CLIENT: No, I mean, you can disagree with me about that. [I mean, that's] (ph)...

THERAPIST: And I'm happy to... if I think that... if I disagree or something, I'm happy to chime in. I think I usually say something if I have a question or if I'm wondering something.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: But yeah, I mean, the way I think about it is a bit of disowning it, not taking authorship of the idea. (Pause)

CLIENT: Could be (chuckling). (Pause) [0:36:00] Because I... I just said that because I did... I do at times see it's a level field and people bring different things to the table. And I didn't think that, oh, he and I are going to have this degree (ph), and I'm very (inaudible at 0:36:45) so I'm better. So I'm just not... I'm just going to absolutely not associate with any of them. That's not how I was. I didn't just want to appreciate the different talents of the women. [0:37:02] That's why I approached this woman, to be friends with her. I didn't care about how well does she works and all that. It just came out... it just came to that point where I didn't want to associate with her. But the fight was over an insult from my side and an unanswered e-mail. I felt ignored and, yeah, taken advantage of a little bit too, so... (Pause) [0:38:00] It's often like that, I suppose, that someone hurts you emotionally, personally, and you just kind of push them away on a different basis. Like, they're not... (Pause) [0:39:00] But what's the solution to it? I'm not sure. (inaudible at 0:39:09) is not by ideal (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Well, I guess the solution or the end goal is to be able to separate out their sort of personal issues with... you're seeing it as a slight rather than, she's got her own stuff going on.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There's not necessarily the intent to be rude or neglectful. She's got her own things.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) But how can you ignore someone who's helping you so much? Every single thing she had submitted to the class she'd send to me first to edit. [0:39:57] And I invited her to Thanksgiving dinner, and there was absolutely no response from her. So, I mean, of course she has her own things going on. But if I'm inside her head I'd be thinking... I would think, oh, yeah, I could... she's helped me. I should at least say no if I can't go, you know (chuckling)? Unless there was an earthquake or something severe like that that kept you from picking up the phone and texting. It's not like we don't have that kind of relationship. I mean, (inaudible at 0:40:48). It's not like that. I mean, she came (inaudible at 0:40:54). [0:40:56] So it seemed very petty of me to hold her to that and hold the... respond (ph) with hurt and not let go after so many months (chuckling). (Pause)

I don't want to be like this. I don't want to suffer myself. I mean, I'm talking about myself. It's... forget about what I'm doing to her, it's mostly to myself damage (ph). I don't want to do this any more. [0:41:56] I don't want to get angry and hurt just because people I expect things from don't give them to me. Or... yeah. And then have to fight and break off the whatever, friendship, slash, acquaintance. (Pause) Don't I have other resources to turn to if I feel neglected and ignored? Why has it become so dramatic? Why does it get so drastic? It really does. [0:42:55] I get very, very angry (chuckling). It's like I'm on the edge all the time with people. And one wrong word out of them, and that's it. I don't know why (chuckling). (Pause) [0:44:00] Are we done?

THERAPIST: I'm sorry?

CLIENT: Are we done?

THERAPIST: You (ph)... we have another minute or so. (Pause) You work hard in here.

CLIENT: Hmm?

THERAPIST: You work hard in here.

CLIENT: I do?

THERAPIST: I think you do. Does it not feel that way?

CLIENT: What do you mean I work hard?

THERAPIST: You really engage in the process of trying to figure out some pretty important issues for yourself.

CLIENT: I'm glad to hear that (chuckling). [0:44:56]

THERAPIST: You take it very seriously and earnestly.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, I want to... not just for my own sake, but for people around me (chuckling). I really think that, if I don't take care of my own self, I make others very miserable, so (chuckling) I don't want to do that.

THERAPIST: You know that from your mother.

CLIENT: As in she makes me...?

THERAPIST: That she... her not taking care of herself has negative implications on people around her.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, we are going to need to stop.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I'm doing the statements for this month. I don't think you paid the copay from last month. I don't...

CLIENT: I didn't?

THERAPIST: I don't have that down. Can you check? I could... it could be my mistake.

CLIENT: Okay, yeah, no, sure. I don't have my checkbook with me today, but...

THERAPIST: That's fine, but check. I don't know if you... I usually keep good records of it, but sometimes I make a mistake myself. [0:46:01]

CLIENT: Okay, sure. No, it'll be in the checkbook.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So (chuckling)...

THERAPIST: Great. And I'll see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Take care.

CLIENT: You, too. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

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