TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in.

[00:01:43]

CLIENT: I had a busy week.

(Pause): [00:01:44 00:02:04]

CLIENT: (inaudible) people I know that want (inaudible) that had like an event yesterday and three of us were speaking about (unclear) in the Nepalese context. So we had like 60 people come and like we were well-attended and good team effort to (unclear) the (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:02:36 [00:02:44]

CLIENT: And there's always a little bit of anxiety when you have to do some public speaking and (laughs) I fooled myself into thinking, 'oh, I can do it.' (Laughs) But when you actually sit there you feel nervous and I guess everyone always feels that way. (Laughs) It's just part of (inaudible) but for me it's like (laughs) the anxiety comes afterwards and it stays for a long time. (Laughs) It's like because you fool yourself and you go there and you're feeling anxious but somehow you keep going because you have a script, but later on when you're thinking about it it's like, 'oh, my God what did I do?' And all these people were there, they're watching me and I wonder what they're thinking and I wonder if they're thinking, 'oh, she is actually stupid,' or, 'what was that? That wasn't (unclear).' I feel kind of scared now (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Scared of what?

CLIENT: Having put myself out there. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: People (inaudible). Because I know I'm old. And I'm just thinking because like when you feel nervous while you are doing it that is heard of, but feeling nervous after the fact is unheard of. It sounds unheard of. (Laugh)

THERAPIST: And so if it's unheard of what does that mean about you?

CLIENT: I'm still trying to identify my peculiarities and how to think through them and take them away or do something about them.

THERAPIST: Well, even if you were nervous during, what you identify is something that is more common. Do you think that that would still be worth talking about?

CLIENT: Not so much.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Because it's common.

THERAPIST: That's an interesting reasoning.

CLIENT: Is it?

THERAPIST: Um hmm [yes]. I mean lots of people worry about being alone. Does that mean then, 'oh, a lot of people are worried about it, so I guess there's nothing to talk about.' People are worrying about aging. They worry about their own ability to make a good life for themselves and to work hard and make sure there are so many things people worry about that I guess are fairly common worries that seem really valuable to talk about.

CLIENT: Not according to Chris. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: I see. So you need to live according to Chris?

CLIENT: Well no, like he's one person I talk too (inaudible). So if I'm saying something that's already been said then he's going to dismiss it. He will tell me to get back to my work.

(Pause): [00:06:50 00:07:04]

CLIENT: Are you confused?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, I'm just I mean I know there's a distinction like this is Chris's thinking and this is my thinking. I'm aware of, well you know that's so like when I say this and it's sort of just a way of his thinking versus my thinking, I'm really that in the box of my thinking of things that come are like my work, my craft and like that will be in this bucket not necessarily things that have that you just described normal people go through and anxieties and these are things that we would share and after listening to me go on for like a minute or less about these things, you know like he seems very uninterested and he'll tell me, 'there's not much that can be done about it,' you know, 'all we can do is work.' That's like my cue, like, I don't know, I'm trying really hard to articulate this but like -

THERAPIST: You're cue to -?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: You said that's your cue to.

CLIENT: Cue to but that isn't, there is no resolution, like, so yes, so that's like, he's not very interested in generalizations of, 'oh, everyone deals with it, everyone's dealing with aging and like (inaudible) so what do we do is nothing there's no resolution to this. So the point becomes moot.

THERAPIST: Is that how you feel? [00:08:53]

CLIENT: Well I guess I get my cues about all these things from him and I'm not trying to appear like, 'well, no (inaudible).' But really I haven't. Like I don't think I've discussed all these things over time with anyone. Yeah, like, I'm just (unclear) is the case for a lot of people like they just had their partner to talk to about all these things or maybe they have other friends or maybe they have their parent, so I understand that I'm leaning on him too much, maybe? It that what I'm doing? But I don't know.

THERAPIST: And you're thinking of leaning on him too much because of his response to you?

CLIENT: Because I feel uncomfortable forming my own kind of I can form my own opinions but I don't feel too comfortable relying solely them.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I'm confident I don't know. I mean I like talking about common things with other people if I can find them. (Laughs) But it's like it's such a relief to find them like it's all bottled up, or it's like I'm not encouraged to just go on and on about them (unclear). And when I find someone I can be like, 'oh, these are extremely common things and this is not theory, this is not something interesting or new.' I mean it's good to talk about those common things (unclear) by your being interesting and witty, or you know, like unique (unclear).

THERAPIST: Well, certainly with me you certainly try to sort of screen yourself or hone yourself in or -

CLIENT: I want someone to think well of me. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe I equate you with them.

(Pause): [00:11:22 00:11:30]

THERAPIST: So I wouldn't expect you to talk about things or want you to talk about things that were more like general or common or pervasive?

CLIENT: Really? (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:11:41 00:12:13]

CLIENT: And you didn't answer my question. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Which one? Which question was that? I'm happy to answer it.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Sorry. I'm happy to answer it. What question was that?

CLIENT: No, just that is it common that people feel anxious after they've made a public speech?

THERAPIST: I have no idea.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: I'm the worst person to ask that.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: Because I don't study trends or sort of grand scale, statistical probabilities or facts. I help, you know, or study or look at people's unique experiences.

CLIENT: Unique. Not common.

THERAPIST: Well, I guess it depends on how you define those terms. You could say a lot of people have a reaction to X whatever X means. But their reactions might be very different. So, maybe that's what we're talking about though, is maybe how to define unique.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think everyone has a unique experience because it's their experience and that's what makes them unique. Are there a group of people who are triggered commonly by experiences? Maybe, but that doesn't mean they're unique.

CLIENT: I see that.

THERAPIST: But somehow common to you is almost equated with uninteresting.

And so it's like there's nothing to talk about if it's common. And unique is sometimes very good, but sometimes it's very bad. You're not supposed to do that. That's unique, that's (unclear) is a problem and you need to figure that out quickly.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:14:08 00:14:14]

CLIENT: Well, I suppose you know, the anxiety needs to be unique in a good way, in an exemplary way, but not in a way that is like clear and useless. (Laughs) Because you have no purpose. And that's like a hindrance towards achieving or accomplishing something.

(Pause): [00:14:40 00:15:11]

CLIENT: I didn't mean like statistically or factually. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: How did you mean?

CLIENT: Well, just like just unusual with something like -

THERAPIST: Relative too, though.

CLIENT: Like if people usually feel anxious while they're making a speech or not.

THERAPIST: But that would be statistically, right? You know, what percentage of people if it's above a certain -

CLIENT: No, no, no.

THERAPIST: But, seriously. Who else would it if it's not statistically, there has to be some norm you're statistically makes it sound very formal but there has to be some norm you're comparing it to.

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe there isn't.

THERAPIST: Well you certainly want there to be one.

(Pause): [00:16:01 00:16:08]

CLIENT: I didn't think I did. (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:16:08 00:16:26]

CLIENT: I just kind of assumed that there is something wrong, you know, like maybe I don't know the right way to think about the wrong or (unclear). I'm not exactly sure of the format of our conversations either. Like am I supposed to talk about what I feel or ask questions or present a problem? You know if that's the format because when you say things like you're stuck in this specific area and I see that as a problem, right? Or should I not see that as a problem?

(Pause): [00:17:20 00:17:27]

THERAPIST: Are you saying you're not sure why I say that?

CLIENT: No, no, no. I completely see and agree with you but I'm saying like how do you phrase that how do you think about it? You think of it as a problem or think of it as a judgment or I think of it as just a unique experience that I'm having that is not ideal that you're helping me out with, how to get unstuck? You know? That is what I'm thinking in terms of right and wrong or norm and more normative.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well maybe I'm (unclear) because I mean someone else being stuck or in that situation, someone else being stuck or unstuck I see as irrelevant as to whether it's working for you or not.

CLIENT: Oh. Okay.

THERAPIST: I'm not questioning having an evaluative stance to some extent because we're here to think about what works for you and what doesn't in some general way. But then you have a comparative stance.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so that I'm more curious about in part because I don't think that way. It's actually very hard for me to think that way when I'm working with people, which is why I think sometimes I'm confused. I just want to understand where you're coming from though.

CLIENT: But how can there not like how can being stuck work for anyone?

THERAPIST: Well, it may not be stuck for other people. It might be the same behavior but it's a different given who they are and what they want in their experience, it's not stuck.

(Pause): [00:19:03 00:19:15]

THERAPIST: Well, someone could be in a relationship with Chris and not feel stuck because of who they are and what they want in their life that the reality of being in a relationship with him is not stuck experience the way it is for you, given who you are and who you want to be and what your conflicts are. So I guess stuck, in general, has an evaluative stance, yeah, but the reasons that you are, are not necessarily the same reasons someone else would be.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Does that make sense?

CLIENT: A little. (Laughs) I'm trying to understand.

THERAPIST: What do you think the confusion is?

CLIENT: No, I see I know you're talking about different things, obviously, but I'm more concerned about the format. The (unclear) like here how to present myself, like what are my goals here and how exactly we can talk and like how you can help and how I can, you know, and how should I speak? And you're also analyzing my anxiety with the format and kind of seeing that trying to understand how I think I suppose, like the whole comparative thing that I do. So -

THERAPIST: Are there times where you're more aware of the format than others?

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Is today one of those times where you're more aware of it?

CLIENT: I suppose, yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you have a sense of what that could be?

CLIENT: What could be?

THERAPIST: Like why that would be?

CLIENT: Well, I guess we've started talking about like my searching for the norm I suppose and then I became aware of it was I not supposed to why am I doing this, because (unclear) want to know why I'm doing it and I guess I also am but I got those wonderings of am I not supposed to do it this way? Am I supposed to do it another way? (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Well to back up even further, you started by talking about this weekend and you're doing what's it? Like a demonstration or was it a kind of program or -

CLIENT: No. I just produced a piece about, like an opinion piece about -

THERAPIST: I see. In like a magazine or something?

CLIENT: No, it was a public event.

THERAPIST: Got it. Got it. Right. So it was like a demonstration or a not really like -

CLIENT: No it was just like a panel discussion.

THERAPIST: Got it. Okay. Far from it. So, yeah, so you started by talking about that and talking about how it was well received and also how you felt calm or you didn't feel nervous during that, but only after the fact. So that's how we got onto the theme of common versus not.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it does feel like similar to like last week or the week before where you were talking about getting complimented on open mic night and then things fell apart. It's not quite the same thing but it just made me think about that.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's true. Yeah, and it's sort of similar like where you have the energy and it gets you through the event and then afterwards it's like your adrenalin has gone down or something and you're like, 'what have I done?' Like the anxiety you were somehow holding back comes flooding in. Something triggers that sort of downward shift moved down several notches.

(Pause): [00:23:13 00:23:35]

CLIENT: And I guess I feel like I have something, some accomplishment, obviously, it's not a tangible something, it's like this idea of what I have done or where I would like to go in terms of growing as an artists or a thinker, you know, whatever. Just maturing as a person also who engages with the community and things like that. You get some idea and then you're in the moment and you feel like you have some grasp, but then after the moment has passed you look around and in my case you look up and down (laughs) and then you see those tears and you feel kind of small, you know, like you've just been unmade or something.

THERAPIST: Where do the tears come from?

CLIENT: From the people. Like I saw the people kept coming in throughout the event and the three of us, I went first and then the other two and there was a discussion. And like a couple of people that I know that are scholars and one them is an old woman and another is a young man, but they didn't hear my speech and they didn't hear my intro or anything. I was just like, I'm still like a black box to them or like, and I didn't think, I just felt like these feelings in a split second but the woman asked me, 'who are these people?' And I said and I told her and it was so weird because like I have other anxieties but I feel very self-conscious and very afraid of not presenting my best side and not having that, you know, like -

THERAPIST: But there was something about her not having heard you that struck you, too.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean she's a professor and (unclear) to be that strikes me as important to me. I was at her place Saturday night and she invited this really famous documentary filmmaker from Nepal. He just had his latest film shown and they were all having dinner and I just felt so weird at their house and I decided never to go there again.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: There's just a lot of ego there. Like they have meetings. They have like a regular meeting where they read some book and they discuss it, or like picture and theory and stuff. But their atmosphere is very different from other meetings and organizations where discussions are encouraged. At her home it's not like she has to get it right. It has to be the nuances have to be articulated and she and Chris always disagree and they just don't even and it's like a hodgepodge and I like I don't get anything out of it. And it's not just me who feels this way. I met this other woman Friday and she and I were like, 'yeah, we really (unclear).' (Laughs)

THERAPIST: It's interesting what you just did. You said, "it's not just me who feels this way. Other people feel this way, too."

CLIENT: (Laughs) What.

THERAPIST: Why well, I'll ask you first why is someone else feeling that way important to the story?

CLIENT: Well, because I don't feel like I have the right to judge someone like her just by myself. It's like I feel really scared and lonely having my judgment and I would love if some other people were standing in solidarity. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: And would someone else agreeing with you give it weight in my eyes?

CLIENT: Yeah, in everyone's eyes. In my eyes, too. Okay, now I can judge this Yale professor. (Laughs) (inaudible). Yeah, I actually don't feel like I'm very cool, but even why do I have to feel anything in terms of (unclear)? That's my sad thing that I'm struggling with. (Pause) So yeah, so like it hurts. Yeah, it was weird, like I went there because I wanted to tell this filmmaker you know, 'I'd love to work with you and have skills in interviewing and the next time you're working on anything, if you need any help, (laughs) it's (unclear) volunteer.' But I never got around to saying a single word to him. And all the older people just hog all the time, space. So she came and then like when I was saying goodbye to her she said, 'yeah, yeah, (unclear) oh no, you're not dumb.' Not because I don't like her, because she's so much above all this, why should she come? But she came (unclear) and I was like, 'yeah, well you're very busy,' but I'm just so anxious now that you didn't hear this talk that I put time and effort into and I'm still like a blank to you and so worried what you (unclear) that night, you know?

THERAPIST: Why are you a blank to her? [00:30:24]

CLIENT: Because she didn't hear me speak. She doesn't know me very well and she doesn't seem interested in knowing me. Like she I've been to her house a few times and eaten her food and told how good it was and there's never been any, 'so what do you work on?' you know. (Laugh) I mean these people have reputations and books out and you can Google them, like, 'oh yeah, she's working on this.' So they're no longer mysteries. I guess I'm like I lack that so -

THERAPIST: Well, so do you feel like a blank as a person or a blank as a professional or what are you a blank as?

CLIENT: Professional.

THERAPIST: I guess a professional well, you could spend years having very close friends who don't really know what you do for work or what you've accomplished or anything. Don't you think?

CLIENT: I know this happens, but it's so weird. It seems incomplete. (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:31:39 00:31:39]

THERAPIST: What if you didn't have friends in the academe. People who aren't in the academic or literary world. Whatever you accomplish wouldn't really have any meaning to them anyway, any specific meaning.

CLIENT: I have very few of those actually. Like my ex-roommates and I really like them. (Laughs) Like yesterday I was supposed to hang out with her and didn't get time from that event, but yeah, I feel sort of brave with her because she doesn't care whether I am successful or not or what I think and how well done my piece was and, you know. So, I like that.

THERAPIST: That's what a friend is.

CLIENT: Yeah. I suppose these are just professional contacts and -

THERAPIST: Well right, when you said, "I'm a blank to her." I mean, you can have lots of professional colleagues whom you could be a blank to because I don't know you. I know a piece of you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I guess it sort of begs the question of what it is to be no one and what isn't a blank and what information is important to be filled in for someone to know you?

(Pause): [00:33:23 00:33:32]

CLIENT: For me, you mean?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: For me all I here about is, 'oh, she's a great artist.' (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Clearly not because you just said it feels nice to be with this friend who is outside this world.

CLIENT: Oh, I know, like, friends yes. But professional contacts no, I guess that's all (inaudible). I mean I don't want to her to be my friend. I don't think she's interested in being my friend. (Laughs) Very silly to think of her as a friend. (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:34:14 00:34:30]

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Well, I was just thinking how much you seek approval and recognition from these people.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know why. It's so stupid.

THERAPIST: Does it really feel stupid?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm being ridiculous. Chris would say, 'why the hell are you wasting your time (unclear)? �These people don't (unclear).

(Pause): [00:34:52 00:34:58]

THERAPIST: Wait, it sounds like I know the in and out of being Chris.

CLIENT: (Laughs) You go in and out of being -

THERAPIST: Chris. From your vantage point, not from my vantage point.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because I made that comment and you said, 'yeah. I mean Chris would say.'

CLIENT: Chris is telling me how to think and I'm trying to be (laughs). What should I do? Should I just be like, 'yeah, I really want their approval.' I don't care what Chris says. (Laughs) Yeah, I mean I have that impulse. I'm trying to kill it I suppose.

(Pause): [00:35:46 00:35:58]

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I want all of them to sit and coddle me. (Laughs) And say, 'oh, you're so good.' Or like, 'and that point of view is so,' (laughs). You know.

THERAPIST: Would they do that altogether at once?

CLIENT: (Laughs) No. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: How would they do it?

CLIENT: Daydreams.

THERAPIST: Would they take turns?

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: And when they coddled you, how would you feel?

CLIENT: I don't know. Good, I suppose. Coddled. (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:36:40 00:36:48]

THERAPIST: Held.

CLIENT: Um hmm, yeah, I suppose. Nurtured and held and safe. (Laughs) And approved like, okay like being a big check and using that to move forward.

(Pause): [00:37:13 00:37:23]

CLIENT: But it doesn't work that way, right? So -

(Pause): [00:37:24 00:37:33]

CLIENT: Everyone has their life and they're busy and they cannot give you the time that you want them to give you unless they get something out of that like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Do you feel that way about me?

CLIENT: Well, I mean (laughs) should I?

THERAPIST: You're making a general statement about people so I was wondering they don't have the time and -

CLIENT: No, I was thinking of these people being -

(Pause): [00:38:13 00:38:21]

CLIENT: Are we almost done?

THERAPIST: Oh, five minutes.

CLIENT: (Sighs) I swear I do these things subconsciously, yeah, subconsciously where it's like even if people come up to me and congratulate me or compliment me, it's not good enough because I'm like, 'why are you?' You know like, 'oh, you're not in this (unclear), you're not in (unclear) so what do you know, so your compliment doesn't really matter.' And I'm trying really hard to work against that impulse and think it's really good and they have a brain and they've seen the world and it's really good to have like just normal people who relate and get something out of what I've done.

(Pause): [00:39:11 00:40:16]

CLIENT: Do you think I lean too much on Chris for approval or -?

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: It came to my thinking that it just seems like a lot of my thinking is informed by how Chris thinks.

THERAPIST: I see.

(Pause): [00:40:32 00:40:42]

CLIENT: Like I'd like to think that I'm an independent thinker but it doesn't seem to be that way, like there's all these boundaries of thought like I'm not supposed to think beyond this and I'm not supposed to prolong this thought and go on this thing. And that comes from -

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's a little bit the causality is a little tricky because I think you're drawn to the way Chris thinks because he sees things in a very circumscribed, specific and sometimes black and white ways.

CLIENT: Yeah,

THERAPIST: And I think you try to adopt that but not just sort of randomly, like here's Chris, let me try thinking like him. I think there's a particular thing that appeals to you about his particular way of thinking.

CLIENT: Yeah. But what is that particular thing?

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: You're saying I apply -

THERAPIST: You like the rigidity of his thinking.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You like how cut and dry things are for him. You like that simplicity of the direction. You like the direction, the goal, the structure. You like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like that is what makes a person mature, so without it I feel immature. (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:42:17 00:43:15]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: How much I can how can I be more independent and not be drawn to all that rigidity so much. Mostly I think of breaking up. (Laughs) And then like, I can't do that. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: You can't do that because you don't want to?

CLIENT: I want to but I don't know if that will be yeah, that's what I want. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: I'm sorry.

CLIENT: That's what I want to do. I don't know if I want to (unclear).

(Pause): [00:44:05 00:44:20]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like to be with him you have to think the same way he does?

CLIENT: No. Yes, to some extent and be unconversive, and not be a hindrance and be like not in the way.

(Pause): [00:44:41 00:44:51]

CLIENT: And pull my weight, whatever that might mean. And be productive, intellectually to some extent as much as I could be.

THERAPIST: Because that's what he requires of you or that's what you require of yourself with him?

CLIENT: Probably the latter, but the latter is because I think the former is true.

THERAPIST: That's complicated.

CLIENT: Is it? (Laughs)

THERAPIST: It's important to tease those two apart. Those are important distinctions and you may have a whole other level of important distinctions about that which is you think is the latter but the way you think about it feels like the former which is another level of important complexity to it. But we do actually -

CLIENT: (Laughing)

THERAPIST: do need to stop, okay? So we can pick this up on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay?

CLIENT: l'll bring my checkbook again.

THERAPIST: Okay. Was I correct with the co-pay from last time?

CLIENT: I was looking. Yeah. I guess it's right. So this is the February one, right?

THERAPIST: No, this would be for January. The February was just sent. This will be for January. February wasn't due yet because I just sent you the February bill. So this will be for January. I don't have you paid for January but let me know if that was a mistake.

CLIENT: I wrote a check for $105. I'm not sure what -

THERAPIST: That may have been for December. Let's see. What date did you what date was it for?

CLIENT: It's in January.

THERAPIST: Right so that wouldn't be for January. Because January wouldn't be until February. So that I think was for December. But, yeah, I'll just see.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Take care, (unclear). I'll see you Wednesday.

CLIENT: You too.

THERAPIST: Okay, bye now.

END TRANSCRIPT