TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: I'm pretty good, thanks.

CLIENT: Good. That was like we went through a lot on Thursday. (pause)

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But we went through it together, you know, that day. [00:01:28]

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, that's good. That's good to do things together. [00:02:26]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. I guess it feels like we went through our own different parallel. Yeah. I wanted to get in touch with you a lot over the weekend. [00:03:33]

THERAPIST: Were there, was there anything you wanted to say or talk about, or you just wanted to be in touch? [00:04:05]

CLIENT: No, I just wanted to be in touch.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I'm thinking about why is this frustrating. I've been trying to ask myself what is wrong with the way things are. And, like, what is ever wrong with the way things are. Why does it feel like a loss or separation basically (ph). Why is that still around. And I think it comes out of, I think I feel the sense of, I think I feel lonely, and I think I also feel bored or restless. [00:05:22]

And I also (pause) I mean, it's the border calling me [saying to me] (ph), like drowning everybody out. And I am constantly (inaudible at 05:54) making all that noise, to let me know that they're there, not that I really need to interact directly. I really enjoy being by myself and doing my own thing, but only in the very specific context of [the herd] (?) being very close by. [00:06:21]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. So if you're at home, locked up in your room and everybody's kind of around.

CLIENT: I don't work very well with people. It's not like I'm always wanting collaboration or, you know. At least I've been told I don't work very well. [LAUGHING]

THERAPIST: [LAUGHING] [00:06:57]

CLIENT: By my parents and Jeremy. And I think I agree. I get (pause) there's a lot of impatience in me, and the sense of knowing what's right. So in that context of wondering what is wrong with the way things are, I went to the gym on Saturday morning and it was empty, and I was doing my own thing. And this boxer came in and he was kind of fat guy. [00:08:06]

I doubt that he had been in a gym in a while, and he, it was a little uncomfortable being in that boxing gym because I feel a lot more, I feel like I attract a lot more attention than I really want to be at the gym. So, and I have this very inconvenient sense of when people are looking at me, so I felt that right away, but instead of putting up my guard and thinking, oh, I just wish he would go away. This isn't what I wanted. This isn't what I want. Not that I had any plans necessarily, but this isn't what I want. He's going to ruin my workout. He's going to be creepy. [00:09:12]

Those are all feelings I've had in similar situations at the boxing gym, but I guess just asking myself a lot what's really wrong here. I just started all of that melted away, and I just experienced him as he was, and he was totally awesome. And he was clearly very interested in talking to me, and he had a lot of really good tips, starting with being light on my feet in jump roping, and it was this hour long back-and-forth collaborative thing, and I suggested he do some stuff, and then we did some stuff together, and then he taught me some stuff, and could feel the resistance bubbling up, but it was really mild. [00:10:31]

It was a lot more like, okay, what's happening now. What's happening now? What's happening now? I think it helped that he was pretty cool and not very creepy, but that was a nice experience. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I bet you anticipated he'd be intrusive and creepy. And you'd want to be pushing him away and wouldn't be able to, or something, or it would be unpleasant. [00:11:44]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I don't really like to do that. That I would feel like there was potential there, but I didn't, but I threw it away.

THERAPIST: You mean you feel like there was potential there if -

CLIENT: If I had just let him in a little bit. But I can't do that because it could actually turn out badly.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:12:44]

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) But there's so much wasted energy there. I mean I guess it's based on past experience, but I haven't had any past experience with him, Ali (sp). But I think what's frustrating about being here is that, I don't know, last week asked, or you said you didn't know what you could say to be helpful. And I wanted to say I don't want help, I just want to make a connection with you. [00:14:06]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like that would be very helpful, but on another level, I do want help. I think there's a conflict there. (pause) The level at which I do want help is not around. (inaudible at 14:57).

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. It's way more about wanting to connect.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. [00:15:07]

THERAPIST: (pause) I'm not quite sure why, but I'm sort of thinking it sounds like the opposite of how you felt initially with the boxer. [00:16:06]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think in letting it happen, I was open to the possibility of connecting.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that helped a lot?

CLIENT: Yes. And it wasn't negative, it wasn't like I am not going to push him away. It was like, I'm going to see what's here and then see what is possible. (pause) I don't know why I think it's up to me with the boxer. Or I do know why I think it's up to me, because it doesn't seem like there is a lot of conflict in him. It was clear what he wanted to do. [00:17:22]

THERAPIST: Yeah, he I mean, which I might be wrong, but you felt like you wanted to make a new you wanted to work out together or whatever.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think he just wanted to talk to me, but I think I made him feel like it was okay to bring it to another level. I think I feel that responsibility a lot in my interactions. [00:18:06]

THERAPIST: Hm, like it's on you.

CLIENT: Or like that I'm going to be able to do it, that I'm going to be able to do a good job of it. And that I know how, and it feels good to me. I can't really do that here. At least not without a lot of, I don't know, cooperation on your part. [00:19:16]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I can't herd you. Is herd, I can't shepherd you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (giggling)

THERAPIST: It doesn't feel like I'm here?

CLIENT: Hmm. You're here.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (chuckling) Yeah. [00:20:03]

CLIENT: I don't think that's enough. I think I want a lot more.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no, I get that impression. I'm not -

CLIENT: I think the act of shepherding isn't warm bodies. It's like constantly pushing the boundary of all the relationships.

THERAPIST: Oh. [00:20:48]

CLIENT: Like almost this wanting the intensity to always be kind of bubbling. And that's kind of like what I'm like to be around. I think Jeremy has a good sense of that, more than most people where it's probably very predictable. Some amount of time will go by and I will, and I will sort of fabricate or just create this big thing that needs to happen so that we can address a really important topic, or push each other in some way, or improve ourselves in some way, or maybe like [00:21:55]

THERAPIST: Just work to create a (inaudible at 21:58) or something, like an intensity to things between you and who you're with, or who yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Or I'll look for that, like, I don't think I necessarily need to be the one to do it, but I will really appreciate when it's happening and try to be there and be with it as much as possible. I think that's probably why it's so tiring for me to be out and about, and why the wedding was a complete disaster in terms of my equilibrium. [00:22:55]

THERAPIST: You mean because there was just so, so much of that?

CLIENT: Yeah, or if that's my normal instinct, that's going to kill me in a situation like my wedding.

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: Because I can't just possibly or I think it's harder for me to possibly just let happen what's happening, without some sense of I don't think manipulating is the right word, or controlling, but it's like some sense of being an active participant in the turning the course of things. [00:23:52]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess kind of working like (inaudible at 23:55) a bit. I would turn up the temperature a little bit especially around when your people are around to bring everyone together, and yeah, at the wedding, it was kind of like doing that in a nuclear power plant. That nuclear and extended family power plant.

CLIENT: I had a dream about my family every night. I don't remember any of the dreams, but I remember that they're all there and there's something happening. I remember the dream about you a lot. But I think I have this very cool chill way of doing it. I'm not particularly caffeinated or energetic person. [00:25:12]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean a lot of people do the kind of thing you're describing through more drama. I don't think you'd ever do it through drama, though.

CLIENT: No, I am not dramatic, and I don't really get angry, or really upset. I try to avoid most of that. Like, I just do it in my own way, and I think people really like that. I mean I'm thinking now about me in lab, and there are a lot of times where I'm just not talking to anyone. I'm not paying attention to anything about other people and I think you need that in order for the Galvectine (ph) to be effective, or you could say it more personally like, I think I need, in order for the Galvectine (ph) to be pleasing to me, or effective for me to feel like that there's some excitement going on, and that I'm shepherding in the way that feels right to me, it needs to be in the right proportion. I think I have a good sense of what that is. [00:26:43]

THERAPIST: Well, I think you can also feel really very much alone and that there's something about this that among other things can be an anecdote to that. I mean I don't think you just do this with people in order not to just not to be alone, but I think that's part of it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That you can feel just a little bit quite disconnected actually. Not in your head, I mean, I'm sure if you stop and think about it, you'd know how many people you'd have around who are close, but I think you can feel quite disconnected sometimes, and this can really help with that. [00:27:49]

CLIENT: I think that's right. I think it's like if I don't make something happen, then I'm going to get that feeling that I don't want to exist, and that's way worse than anything. And I'm not sure why I can't also a choice for me to see what's going to happen, and why that is inferior to -

THERAPIST: Well, I imagine it's because you feel a bit desperate when you worry that -

CLIENT: Like urgent.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that sort of gets you moving.

CLIENT: But actually it's not very effective in sometimes it's effective in postponing that feeling, but if the feeling is there, the feeling is there.

THERAPIST: I see. So shepherding doesn't really ameliorate it. [00:29:03]

CLIENT: Or I don't have energy to do it. I'm already sunken.

THERAPIST: I mean I could be wrong about this, but saying we talked about, I think a couple of weeks ago, I don't have the sense that you talked much about, or that there's much room in your close relationships for that feeling of disconnection and aloneness. In other words, I think mostly when you're in a situation where you're close to Jeremy or close to your family, [according to yourself, you're not] (?) so close to me that that feeling of being disconnected and alone is split off. [00:30:17]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's not something that you're talking about or maybe even remembering.

CLIENT: I guess I would wonder why should I talk about it when it's not happening right now, and I don't know. Let's cut.

THERAPIST: It's not that it's anything you shouldn't talk about it, but I do have a feeling, although maybe it's not correct, that the way that it split off when you're actually close, that it would sort of leave some bit of you out in the cold. [00:31:19]

CLIENT: Hmm. Can you explain that more?

THERAPIST: I don't know. Like if there's warm clothes for Jeremy, and an overwhelming feeling of disconnected, and maybe that or overwhelmed by reject. Like that one somehow isn't [00:32:10]

CLIENT: I think warm clothes for Jeremy's kind of a go away [rather than reject] (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah. It might be because that's not a way you're as comfortable being close, being very sad, or feeling disconnected, or alone. [00:33:00]

CLIENT: Well, it's kind of a downer. I mean I'll talk about it if I have to, if I really need to, but I don't really see a place for it in I mean as we're talking I'm seeing a place for it so it's hard to explain exactly what I think (inaudible at 33:44) I'm going to change. It's also really hard to describe. I think because I mean I haven't really spent that much time with the dealing with it and when I have, I'm sort of doing what I can to brace myself to not become completely swallowed up by them, so it's hard to I see why it would be useful to examine them and let them air out and be fully what they are, but that's very hard, and while I'm much more willing to stay with them as I was before, I still really want them to go away. [00:34:59]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh, they're so painful.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, because it's just really hard.

CLIENT: Well, they're very scary and it's like everything is in relation to what other stuff I experienced, so I don't know. When I try to explain it to Jeremy, he gets that they're scary and that they're painful, but he'll say that he spent so many years with dark feelings and I'm going to be fine, and it's not I don't know. He'll say something like well, you're really lucky that this isn't going to last for that long. [00:36:01]

THERAPIST: I think they're very bad.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Thanks. That helps to hear.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Why are they here?

THERAPIST: That's a good question. I don't know.

CLIENT: And when they're not here, why aren't they here?

THERAPIST: We have about five minutes. I want to try, I guess I've wondered occasionally, well, actually I had the idea that (pause) because everyone's so warm, and so proud, and so positive in your family that it doesn't quite leave room for them.

CLIENT: Yeah, it doesn't fit. [00:37:39]

THERAPIST: Yeah. And this is sort of like getting more speculative about it, I guess just in my mind that maybe there is, I mean in addition to being wonderful, something a little bit defensive about this kind of feel in your family against some of the well, it sounds like pretty considerable adversity that members of your family have been through, too. In other words, there's a way of being upbeat, and positive, and proud that's really admirable, but maybe also a little bit about excluding some of how painful it's been.

CLIENT: I don't know what people are doing inside their head, but I haven't heard much about the nature of pain in my family. I've heard a lot of about the nature of a drug thing pain, but not actually the qualities of pain. I've heard a lot about, I don't know, kind of bullshit praying. [00:39:07]

I like prayer a lot, and I think there's a place for it, but it doesn't, yeah, it just seems to fall really short. And I'm speaking from the perspective of realizing how powerful direct observation through meditation, for example, or a state of mind where that's sort of the way forward or the way out of things. I like how powerful that has been, and I like -

THERAPIST: I see. Like praying comes to be pretty positive, sort of mindfulness meditation or sort of direct conservation through meditation. [00:40:07]

CLIENT: Or analysis through therapy. Maybe.

THERAPIST: I think yeah.

CLIENT: I think this is another time for those two things to interact.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. It's more about how do things actually feel right now.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Which is, you know, things would be quite different.

CLIENT: Yeah, it didn't seem like it would be that useful to teach a child first the prayer aspect and then like way later, the direct observation aspect, not that I have any idea what I would teach any children, but in retrospect, this scale seems to be very, feels very adolescent, and not (inaudible at 41:17), learning about things in this way. (pause) Can I say one more thing? [00:42:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah, go ahead.

CLIENT: Part of me feels like, well, right now I feel like, okay, I'll take this. This is useful but I guess I'll take it if I'm not, if we're not going to spend the whole time talking to me.

THERAPIST: Okay. You're disappointed.

CLIENT: Yeah.

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