TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. The door's open, you can always come on in. (inaudible)

(Pause): [00:01:08 [00:01:17]

CLIENT: Good, thank you. Oh, did you burn yourself?

THERAPIST: No, no. I just have a little, some very minor infection. I just need to keep my finger soaked.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: I'm fine.

CLIENT: Are you sure? (Laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Totally.

CLIENT: Okay. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Soaking and it looks kind of silly.

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: But, I'm fine.

CLIENT: No I'm just thought if you want to reschedule or something.

THERAPIST: For my finger? Oh boy.

CLIENT: (Laughs) I don't know.

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: I had a weird weekend (laughing) and week.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: I'm still trying to recover. (Laugh) There was this conference this week in D.C. There were like 12,000 people gathered at the convention center and so I learned a lot. I just hope I can learn from experiences rather than just putting them aside because they're too scary to deal with, you know? Rather than run and hide or something. (Laugh) They put me on the panel, like my (unclear) and it was you know, like I had never been on a panel. (Unclear) and I didn't really know what I was getting into and how to prepare for it. I didn't really prepare for it, which I think showed. And like I feel embarrassed now like doing it and do it and then later on relive the experience and it's like torturing myself so that's what's been happening. Like the panel was about influence and they've taken one instructor and his student and one instructor and her student to talk about working under a mentor influences you and this and that. Well, the other people were very much prepared like the student had studied with the professor for a full three years and now she's been out and like they've had a much longer relationship that spanned years and so they spoke for most of the time and I learned a lot and was taking notes and spoke very profoundly and philosophically. And then I had to speak right after the instructor and he's like very surprised and everything like then I started out saying, 'I'm scared (unclear) a lot.' (Laughs) And then I said something very, very basic and when I said something controversial everyone was like, 'whoa, whoa.' (Laughs) I was like, 'okay, I'm making a fool of myself here.' And my instructor sitting next to me and she was like, 'you better be quick because they took a long time,' which was good because they had more to say. So she and I were just like did our piece very quickly. And she and I have only known each other for a very few much shorter time, a few months and we've met like three times for tea and that's not really a relationship and when I was thinking about it I kept thinking about my teachers at MSU with whom I had a much longer kind of an engagement. I was reliving that and feeling very embarrassed. Why did I say this, why did I do that, why ? (Laughs) I was so high strung, so nervous, so weirded out right after the program that lasted like all what do you call it like I felt so disjointed and like displaced what is that word? Whatever.

THERAPIST: Disoriented?

CLIENT: Yeah. I didn't know where I was and I was texting like I texted a few people like 'are you guys doing anything tonight?' And these women with whom, we've like formed an initiative, we had a panel last week (laughs) I've become a panelist. (Laughs) But, yeah, they texted back and said, 'yeah, come over.' And I spent like two, three hours with them talking and it was the most strengthening and enlightening hours in a long time. And even my mom came to the panel. That's another story. Our relationship is like a minefield now. (Laughs) We just pick like vultures at it and we like (Laughs). So my mom comes and we're critiquing her dress or whatever. She comes and I had to like jump through hoops to get them in because you don't go you can't just attend a panel at the conference. You have to register and I had to borrow badges from my colleagues to wear there. Lesson learned don't invite your family members to your professional things. She sits in the front seat next to my current professor, this guy who is very (unclear) and (unclear). She sits next to him and she starts dozing off. And she's asleep for most of the panel and when my turn comes I didn't look at her so I have no idea if she is awake for my (unclear) or not. I was so like, I almost said to the guy in front of the mic, 'mommy, wake up.' (Laughs) That would have been funny but that's an occasion to be profound and you know, like, anyway what was I saying? Yes. So I went to these two women's place, mother/daughter, and was telling them about the panel and like all the anxious feeling that kind of channeled into words like a broader critique of patriarchy in the work we are trying to do. It was very strengthening, you know, like and she brought me pie and tea and we were like, it was so soothing because earlier I was so disoriented and anxious when I was walking back from the panel with my mom and Chris. And I was talking to Chris and I realized this was not his forte. He just cannot I mean I was like torturing him too. "How did (unclear) sound? How did (unclear) sound?' So I walked straight back to their place and spent like a few hours talking with them about all this. And her daughter has gone through a similar thing like me. She had a breakdown and she's older than me and she said it took her a long time to get straight with therapy and all like she said she was very shy and now it took her all this time to get into a PhD program and do that, but I mean that was very strengthening for me to learn that I'm not just feeling weird all by myself. I'm not there's a reason why I feel awkward, because there are all these things that are expected and I'm not sure I mean like I just felt, 'oh my God, what have I done? I'm so dumb. I didn't prepare.' I didn't even think about the whole comparison. Oh, the poets had a longer engagement and my teacher and I haven't had any engagement and I didn't even look at her objectively. I was just so caught up in like the reaction, like the reactive world was so like (unclear). [00:10:44]

And there are very few people, there are all these panels that are so much more important with so many more famous people. Like 20 people must have been there at our panel so that's not much. And like Chris kept telling me, 'don't give yourself too much importance.' It's a very hard lesson to learn.

THERAPIST: Too much importance in terms of -

CLIENT: Well you know, like you're so caught up in your own personal thing, like 'oh, I'll make such a fool of myself' and someone like Chris would say, 'you're giving too much importance to yourself.' You know, think about it in a larger perspective and no one's going to remember and everyone's has a -' I guess that's what he means.

(Pause): [00:11:43 00:11:54]

CLIENT: So trying to put it behind is not going to be easy, but it was just this Saturday.

(Pause): [00:12:03 00:12:12]

CLIENT: I just feel like the whole time this woman was talking to me and feeding me pie (laughs) I was like, 'my God,' this is so amazing and Chris, his judgment is so far away right now. Because he always says, 'you know, that woman, she's not, she -' because we meet each other not socially, like discussions every week and Chris's always putting her down like he's always like, 'she doesn't have anything interesting to say. She always says the same thing. I'm so bored.' He really dismisses her and when she was talking to me on Saturday I was just like this is so nurturing, this is so kind, this is so amazing. Why is this one standard applied to everyone? But no they have to say something interesting and profound all the time. You know, why is this fucking standard only take it away. There is just so much beauty in the fact I mean it's a clich�, perhaps, again, you know. Another judgment, you know? But it was nurturing to have that done to me, you know? I mean my mom wouldn't be able to do it. And I know that she loves me a lot, you know? And she wouldn't have known and this woman just did it so easily, you know, with such flair, you know? So unconsciously, you know?

(Pause): [00:13:47 00:13:53]

CLIENT: Why isn't nurturing important? Where would we all be without nurturing, you know? Without love? Without nice things having been done to us? And I could just tell that something in me had changed because that woman from my workshop called in the evening. She'd said, like promised that she'd come to the panel. She's the one I had the fights with. So she called and I was just amazed at my reaction. She's like, 'oh, I'm so sorry I couldn't come.' And if I hadn't had that talk with those women if I hadn't been at home by myself I would have like strangled my friend, you know. I would have emotionally, I would have put her down and make her feel bad. I know that that was what I would have done. But I didn't. And she said she had some food poisoning and I was actually kind to her, like I said, 'oh are you okay now? Don't worry about the panel. It was a learning experience for me but it wasn't, I didn't prepare for it that much and I'll tell you about it later so you don't feel like you missed out. Don't worry. I'll see you later.' Where did that come from? I'm not I wouldn't have been kind to her, you know. I would have felt betrayed, abandoned and all those negative things. But I didn't and it is because someone brought me pie when I was feeling so down. You know? And I don't care if what she says doesn't sound profound to anyone. You know. So it was just like (sigh), I don't know. (Laugh)

(Pause): [00:15:54 00:16:20]

THERAPIST: It sounds like you were very aware of this woman's impact on you?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, she you know I was sort of wary of her because you know, like and you'll say, why do you give Chris so much importance? And I feel like I don't know you tell me. (Laughs) But yeah, no, Chris is like 'she's not that profound,' so I would always be like affectionate with her, not too much, but then I'll just kind of take that into consideration, like use that perspective and the initiative is a very new thing but you know. She's been very encouraging. She's tried to be very encouraging to me like with my writings, earlier also, but like just being able to say, 'oh my God, my teachers,' you know, and I feel either patronized or what is the opposite of patronized? (Laughs) You know, it's always like that and then like, 'well, there's this patriarchy at work here, we're all struggling, we should strengthen each other.' So that was useful and wasn't like, 'oh, I'm dealing with this on my own. No one else feels this way.' And that's completely not true. The power of the collective and all that, you know, is actually really true.

(Pause): [00:17:59 00:18:11]

CLIENT: I haven't really talked to my mom since the panel and Chris was like she's very scared of you, you know.' Like well she is going to come to my panel, sit up front and fall asleep and (unclear). I'm very upset you know.

THERAPIST: What were you hoping for with having her there?

CLIENT: I don't know. (Laughs) Because my professor is like 'we're all going to come to this.' And I was actually relieved by the time it was going to start. I was like, 'please, no one come so I can cancel.' Oh. I don't know, I wanted her to be proud of me, you know.

(Pause): [00:18:58 00:19:09]

CLIENT: I mean it is for me. Why can't you do simple, basic things, like not fall asleep, like it's certainly not that hard? You take your jacket off. You get some tea in your hand, you know, you do things to stay awake. You're not going to sit there all cozy and comfy in your jacket and then nod off. There are really basic things that people are aware of. Of, how not to fall asleep. You know. Don't you think? Isn't it like I'm really asking am I being really harsh with her?

THERAPIST: Is that what you're wondering?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I am.

THERAPIST: You're wondering if what you're trying to assess your expectations.

CLIENT: Yeah. Do you think I'm being harsh with her?

THERAPIST: I don't think you only have a question about that in this respect.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I think you wonder about that in so many different respects.

(Pause: [00:20:13 00:20:19]

THERAPIST: I think you're very disappointed and angry with her in general.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And the point isn't lost on me and probably not on you, too, that you mentioned that this is a mother/daughter pair that you went to and so I imagine that seeing that woman who is so motherly as someone's mother is also a whole story in itself.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I'm not trying to make it so much about that. I was aware, I am actually seeing that they are completely different and I should not equate me and my mom with them, you know. That they lead a different life from us so (Laugh). Yeah, I don't know. I mean yeah, I do see the motherly side of that woman and I've tried to kind of ignore it or resist it. I don't know the right words, but I put it aside and do a political level I think that's more accurate. So, but I mean I guess I'm trying to say my mother's limitations but I hate to even say it like that, oh, they're limitations, you know?

(Pause): [00:21:56 00:22:22]

CLIENT: I feel like my mom and I are very different and try as I might I can't appreciate who she is as who she is, you know?

(Pause): [00:22:35 00:22:41]

CLIENT: Like she's got a really different standards for herself so I can't bring myself to appreciate those standards, like not keeping the house very clean and not keeping yourself looking very presentable. Yeah.

(Pause): [00:23:04 00:23:10]

CLIENT: I see those as signs of personal neglect and I see those as that so I read too much into it. Maybe that's what it is.

(Pause): [00:23:26 00:23:37]

CLIENT: I'm disappointed in myself, actually, that I can't appreciate who she is. I'm very like I hate hanging out with her when Chris is around. And that package really sits heavy on us. And maybe it's better now but I don't even see it. Like the two of them are better than when they were before. Like it was really, really bad a few years ago. Like they wouldn't say a word to each other and he was very like, he was really like he would only be able to talk to intellectuals like he really just cultivated this side of himself and that really limited him socially and I sought that out but, of course, because I wanted that. I wanted to grow intellectually but I also didn't want to like change my standards too much and I guess they did change, like he's become the standard, right? And now, like, I changed my standard too much in his direction and want to shift them back to my direction, and I don't know if we're at opposite ends anymore but yeah, maybe more like towards the nurturing side. And yeah, this is why I'm very disappointed in myself that I can't appreciate her. I tried but I failed.

(Pause): [00:25:22 00:25:27]

THERAPIST: How did it come to pass that you, Chris and your Mom lived together to begin with?

CLIENT: It was not a very well thought out kind of a thing. Like, she I moved to Ohio and I wanted her to move in because she lost her job and got into an accident and was living by herself for years, far away from where I was living with Chris.

THERAPIST: So you were living with Chris.

CLIENT: Yeah, for a year.

THERAPIST: So you guys moved in together.

CLIENT: Yeah. I left my mom (unclear) and moved all the way to Cambridge.

THERAPIST: So you and Chris were living together and she moved in with you.

CLIENT: No. No, it's a bit complicated.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Yeah. So she and I moved to Ohio into an apartment and then Chris would visit from Cambridge on the weekends and then longer as he didn't need to be there as much and so he just kind of slowly moved in with us. (Laughs) It was funny. And then all three of us moved to D.C. together.

(Pause): [00:26:48 00:27:04]

CLIENT: Why did you ask that?

THERAPIST: Well when you were describing Chris's and your mother's relationship I started to think about what the foundation of that relationship was. Like, was it Chris moving in kind of as a tenant or were you a couple and your mother moved in? Like I was just sort of trying to understand the set up of that relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was very gray, I guess. It wasn't very clear. Like he and I were like a couple living together for one year and that kind of not really ended but I decided to go to school in Ohio and, oh yeah, the first time I went I was deferred for a year for like I went and was just going to go live by myself but then his parents came here. They were visiting and it was a very bad financial time and his mom was like, your passion is a luxury, and this and that,' and I just was like petrified of her and like I guess I was seeking their approval so I deferred because I spent so bad taking loans for study.

THERAPIST: I missed the piece what was her input?

CLIENT: Yeah, I met them for the first time and the second time.

THERAPIST: And what did she say to you? I guess I didn't understand.

CLIENT: No, I was saying, 'I want to be an artist,' and this and that and she was like, 'oh, I think it was such a (unclear) I'm not allowed to do it or, 'how luxurious' of me to say that I can do that.

THERAPIST: And so from that you decided to take a year off.

CLIENT: From that I decided not to take it on to study because it was like it was going to be a big change, you know, like going from working full time in Orlando and living very cheaply to living in Ohio and taking loans to study. Like how dare I do that? (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:29:22 00:29:37]

THERAPIST: And so there was a period of time that Chris and your mom didn't talk to each other?

CLIENT: No, they did from the start and they just don't connect at all like he doesn't make any effort to engage at her level and you know, he suspects her as being (unclear).

THERAPIST: So I mean do they literally not talk? They just avoid each other? (Laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah. They don't have much to say to each other. (Laughs) You know they really are like crickets like (unclear). (Laughs)

THERAPIST: How does your mom feel about Chris?

CLIENT: She doesn't tell me directly at all. She has openings. She knows she she doesn't feel at all comfortable telling me but I suspect because like the longest time we were together he was doing a (unclear). He wasn't you know, earning. Now I guess he seems more viable, like as her son-in-law, but she has affection but he is not in need of any affection at least from her, so -

(Pause): [00:30:55 00:31:01]

CLIENT: Like, I wouldn't have any objective opinion on their relationship if I hadn't observed other guys with my mom and this one guy who used to like me and I do like him, but we went to school together, he was very concerned what (unclear). At one point he was like, 'oh, your mom doesn't have any insurance. Let me get her on my insurance.' Like are you stupid? Like he would call her and stuff and talk to her and be very kind and that stuff. Chris (unclear). I mean he takes her shopping and stuff like to get groceries because I actually can't do that. But -

THERAPIST: So he does it because you ask him to or he feels it should be done?

CLIENT: I think it's the latter because he knows I just don't like going to the bank and grocery stores so he (unclear) do that. Now he feels more like he's like, 'yeah, we should hang out with her more,' out of a sense of obligation. That doesn't mean he's going to like they're going to get along (unclear).

(Pause): [00:32:22 00:33:09]

CLIENT: I want so much for my mom to be like me, you know? (Laughs) And I wonder if that's even right for me to expect that.

(Pause): [00:33:18 00:33:25]

THERAPIST: How would you like her to be like you?

CLIENT: I don't know. (Laughs) I guess dress more appropriately and comfortably. Comb her hair and look nice and be more engaged, happenings, be more alive. (Sighs) Clean the house. (Laughs) Try new things.

(Pause): [00:34:08 00:35:52]

THERAPIST: You're kind of quiet.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: You got quiet.

CLIENT: I said all I want to say. (Laughs) (Yawns) Confused. Not confused, but (unclear).

(Pause): [00:36:15 00:36:33]

CLIENT: Do you think Chris was wrong for me in retrospect?

THERAPIST: I think it's interesting that you put it in the past tense? I thought you said I think Chris was.

CLIENT: Well, in the past because we were talking about in the past.

(Pause): [00:36:46 00:36:57]

CLIENT: That's funny because like that woman was talking about like it really sounded like her relationship with her husband was kind of like my relationship. She says she comes from a working class background and her husband like he's very intelligent and speaks very well and everyone looks up to him. She just wanted to learn you know, (unclear) and he had all the learning and he also tells me that I changed him, I made him more human kind of. I mean Chris, I know sometimes says that, but then he also says stuff like, 'I don't feel any different. I'm the same way that I was in my early 20s,' and I'm like, 'oh, okay.' Where he is, like he has a job that requires him to (unclear) his intellectual capacity, you know, like he has to get published and he has to interact with intellectuals and so he would be like that, or he would dismiss this woman and say, 'oh, she just never had anything profound to say.' He is not going to look for nurturing because his job doesn't depend on that.

(Pause): [00:38:38 00:39:12]

CLIENT: I think that a lot of judgments that I have on my mom don't exactly come from Chris but they're kind of like reactions to what Chris would say, you know? Like he'd find it very bad that she does this, does that, you know? So like he might not even judge her but I just kind of jump the gun and I beat him to it. So you know what I'm saying? I think I anticipate his judgment and -

THERAPIST: So is it then his judgment or your judgment?

(Pause): [00:39:51 00:39:56]

CLIENT: I guess it is I don't want to tell him it's his and you know, make it all his responsibility but I'm not saying he's responsible for what comes from my mouth, so I should take responsibility for it.

(Pause): [00:40:10 00:40:14]

CLIENT: But when he's not around and when he's not in the picture and it's just me and my mom, there is a sense of like solidarity and it's very problematic still, but there is that sense, you know, it's like I look at myself and I see myself wanting to say, 'it's okay, you haven't (unclear) either. It's okay.' (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:40:41 00:40:53]

CLIENT: Like a child, right? Like an adult talking to a child. Maybe (inaudible) as you want.

(Pause): [00:41:04 00:41:25]

CLIENT: I mean I don't want to be the adult in the relationship, but I would rather give it back. (Laughs) You know.

(Pause): [00:41:26 00:41:40]

THERAPIST: I don't know if you can give it back. You can give it up.

CLIENT: Up.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Because giving it back implies that there is someone there to take it back.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you can give it up.

CLIENT: I'll try that. I mean, how does it work? It's hard. But I guess consciously it could be done.

(Pause): [00:42:02 00:42:08]

CLIENT: I don't think not paying the rent would be something I could do, you know? But other things, like all of (unclear) are someway irresponsible. (Laughs) Don't check up on her. Don't follow her.

THERAPIST: Do you really think she can't survive without your money? I mean, you might be right.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, I'm just (unclear) thinking right now, I don't think so because she doesn't have any other source of income so -

THERAPIST: And if you didn't have any money, what would she do?

CLIENT: Try and get a job. (Pause) But right now she wants to pass the exams.

THERAPIST: So that's different.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: It's different saying that she needs it versus she likes other options better.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:43:04 00:43:14]

CLIENT: My hope is that she passes her exam and she'll go look for a job. Or finish her school and then look for a job.

(Pause): [00:43:25 00:43:38]

THERAPIST: What do you live off of? Do you have stipends or school loans?

CLIENT: Yeah, I get money from school and I pay most of that for her and -

THERAPIST: You mean like a fellowship?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that's enough for you to live on and also pay your rent?

CLIENT: I don't really look too closely but yeah, it's like, yeah, half more than half the paycheck is her end and then -

THERAPIST: What do you mean you don't look at it too closely?

CLIENT: Like I don't do the math, like this much this month for the rent and then that amount going to -

THERAPIST: Are you in debt?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: So you have to keep track of it somehow.

CLIENT: I don't look at it. (Laughs) I mean I'm in debt but like I don't want to see if I'm breaking (unclear) or not.

THERAPIST: You don't have a checkbook balance your account or anything? I don't balance like I have some savings, so just when it's there I'm not in the red but I don't see it month to month. Well we need to stop for today. I will see you Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay. Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Thank you, you too. Take care.

CLIENT: Hope your finger's better.

THERAPIST: It'll be fine.

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care. Bye-bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT