TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(PAUSE) [00:01:00]

THERAPIST: Come on in.

(PAUSE) [00:02:00]

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: You don't take spring break?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Spring break from?

CLIENT: Oh, you know, it's spring break this week. Everything looks dead. (LAUGHTER) It doesn't?

THERAPIST: From college?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Am I in college?

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) No I'm just saying good. Not that it feels like spring out today. [00:03:03]

(PAUSE)

It feels dull because no one's around and... (PAUSE) Yeah. And I think that I would be pretty unhappy if I wasn't in college life, if I wasn't part of something big with a lot of people walking around. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Hmm. [00:04:00]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I kind of had a, I guess slightly, somewhat interesting experience yesterday. I had to go with David (ph) to his chair's for dinner, the department head. And I was dreading it the whole time like, "I don't want to do it! I don't want to do it!" Because usually... I mean, I always try but... I think I've spoken about this before when I've been to his professor's or friend's places I've always felt awkward. [00:05:05]

I feel like I've internalized what I felt with them. Like on Saturday night his friends came over. They are a couple. They teach with David in the same place and they have two kids. And I felt so awkward the whole time. They made me feel so uncomfortable. Well, they weren't doing anything but just... Like it felt... I mean, they're both economist so they were mostly talking about, if their kids let them, they were mostly just talking about economics and (SIGH) and I didn't really know what to say and, you know, they tried to ask me question, "Oh, what are you doing? How are you doing?" It felt so weird. (LAUGHTER) [00:06:00]

But yesterday after, at her place, the chair's place, I was dreading it but as soon as I walked into her house, she said, "I've been renting this place for a long time and, you know, it was a single mom so immediately I felt like, "Oh, wow. I can be myself." (LAUGHTER) And, yeah, I was. I enjoyed... I talked a lot. I was very un-self conscious and like when she asked me what I was doing and David always tells me I never answer that question. I'm very cryptic. I give one word answers that don't inspire people to ask any more. But I... As soon as she asked me, I gave her every new thing that could be, someone would say, what I was doing, where I was studying. I had no shame. [00:06:59]

Because usually I would be very ashamed, you know, like them professor, me student. (LAUGHTER) But I wasn't so I told her. And I realized... Because like all his friends are so full of themselves. They're so sure. They're so certain and I don't feel comfortable at all with them. Like they come from elite backgrounds. So, you know, there's a class difference that I feel and then, you know, and gender difference perhaps. They just look very sure of themselves and very... They have it all together and I don't see any sign of distress or suffering in them. Well, you can't when you meet someone the first time. Still, I mean, last night, I thought, "You can. Perhaps, you know?" So, I thought that was interesting. (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:08:00]

And then David and I were talking about marriage last night, about how I don't want to get married and I... I don't know. We talked about our relationship but I've been, I've not been feeling like talking to him at all or like I didn't want to tell him all those things as directly as I did last night just because it seemed, you know... Couldn't do it. [00:09:00]

But I know basically like we were saying that... So he was like, "Why don't you want to get married. And I was like... No. He said something like, "To me marriage just means that it's the commitment. You're saying to someone that you want to be with them for the rest of your life." So I was like, "Yeah that sounds pretty nice but I just don't feel like saying that to you. You just don't inspire that kind of passion." You know? Like I feel like that statement should be full of, you know, strong emotions and you just don't inspire strong emotions. You know? (LAUGHTER) You're a pretty mellow person and I haven't shared my emotional side with you. Or when I have shared the response is like, you know, crickets or something, you know?" [00:09:59]

It's hard for the to say that, feel that, you know. Not that I haven't felt that with other people. I have. You know, other things have happened that made us not be together for the rest of our lives. And I was saying, you know, "I mean, it's not that I don't think that we shouldn't be together." Although in the back of my head, I was like, "Oh, that's pretty true." But, but like... (SIGH) You know, trying to be with him has required me to change a lot. You know, like, you know, like what you said that I speak here is basically, you know, it's either David thinks this way so I should think this way. Or David thinks this way so I want to rebel and do the opposite. So he's always the center and I'm always doing everything with respect to him, most of the time. [00:11:01]

Right? I mean, that's... And he's usually preoccupied so (inaudible at 00:11:09) to be with you I figured that the only thing I could do is to be preoccupied myself all the time and we can have a life and we can share little things. We can cook together and we can play Angry Birds, you know? (LAUGHTER) And, and that, that's what I see us as. I mean, not, not like passionate or not really emotional or not adventurous or not exploring the world together and... (PAUSE) He didn't say much. He wasn't like... Well, he did say when I said, you know, your thinking has become like the rule for me. So he was like, "That sounds bad." (LAUGHTER) But he wasn't like, "Therefore, we should break up or therefore blah." You know? It wasn't like that. [00:12:07]

THERAPIST: I'm not sure I understand. "Your thinking has become the rule for me." I don't know what that means.

CLIENT: Oh like, you know, like I was telling him that I always think, you know, "What would you think in this scenario?"

THERAPIST: I see. You said that to him?

CLIENT: Yeah. So he was like, "That's bad." (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: How did, how did he respond to your saying, you know, you don't inspire passion in me?

CLIENT: Nothing. (LAUGHTER) I think later on he said, like, "You disappoint me too." And I was like, "Ooh." (LAUGHTER) But at first he was like, "Yeah, I know it's a general disappointment and dissatisfaction when the other person is (inaudible at 00:12:51) And then he was like, "You never say ‘hi' to my parents when they come on Skype." (LAUGHTER) So I was like, "Well, blah, blah, blah..." (LAUGHTER) [00:13:01]

I try really hard to be, to connect with your mom and she and I, we just don't connect and, you know, she's like you. She's not at all emotional. I mean, she's so unemotional to the extent that when her 98 year old mother passed away, she, the... David's mom was (inaudible) in India and David's mom's mom was in a different place in the country and we were there. David and I were there. So I had to like talk to her on the phone for like an hour to convince her to come up to for her mom's funeral. And she then came and her brother had organized this, you know, thing for the, their mom and, you know, he was crying. He's like this very, very tough guy. (LAUGHTER) [00:14:01]

And he was crying. And David's mom just stood up and she had to make a speech or something. So she just was very, very awkward and she just said, "I'm here. It's nice to be here. Thank you." (LAUGHTER) I understand she has a difficult time when he was younger. She had issues with her mom but (inaudible at 00:14:23) you don't feel anything? Really? (LAUGHTER) Like you really can't think back on any, not any instance of how you mom showed you love or... Aren't you sad?" You know? (LAUGHTER) So that scared me a lot. Like, yeah... And just made it's the cultural (inaudible) or whatever but as a woman, how can you be like that? Maybe I shouldn't say that but just as a human being? You know? Why aren't you saddened by your mother's passing, you know? [00:14:57]

But anyway, we try to... We just don't connect. I mean, she reads a lot and all. But then, you know, that statement of hers she made years ago, "Writing is a luxury," when I was trying to be, become a writer (inaudible at 00:15:19) that really hurt me and I think I'm holding on to that and not forgiving her for that. So...

THERAPIST: Mmm.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: I just... I mean, it seemed like you had a very important conversation with him last night telling him you're actually not interested in marriage.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it seems like a big thing to kind of, "Okay. Well next topic."

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like that. (LAUGHTER) That's how it is. I mean, that's what I mean about not connecting emotionally. (LAUGHTER) It seems no emotion can be significant enough to make any difference, you know? [00:16:00]

THERAPIST: Do you feel you're with him because you're afraid to be alone?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. There's several reasons. I mean, I'm using him (inaudible at 00:16:11) to pay my mom's rent. The other concern is what do I do if I want to go to India? And I'm realizing like I could possibly find a cheaper place and move there. I mean, I'm sure there are other spaces like (inaudible) probably... I don't like to share a place with a lot of people but... I don't know. I've just gotten very comfortable to use that excuse. He has a nice place and... (PAUSE) (LAUGHTER) And we like each other. We have affection. [00:17:05]

(PAUSE)

I mean, in a way I'm thinking... Yeah, so actually he brushed it aside. Maybe that's a good thing. Maybe it shows what, it shows what his priorities are and maybe those priorities should be my priorities, you know? Like moving on with work, you know?

THERAPIST: I don't understand.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: He said that he had a priority to get married so I'm not sure what you're referring to. [00:18:01]

CLIENT: Oh no. I mean, like him brushing... Because you said that we had a big conversation and what happened as a result, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah, well both in terms of impact on the two of you and just how you felt about it too.

CLIENT: Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. Like he doesn't do anything, if, you know, that conversation is over and done. Let's move on with our day." That sort of thing. So maybe I should do that too is what I'm saying. Like, again, like his priorities become my priorities of not worrying too much about how we feel and, you know. (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: But it seems like he's making it clear that this is not what he wants, this, you know, this sort of going on kind of relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well he says he's not that keen on marriage. It's just for his parents' sake. [00:19:03]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm so confused because of this. (LAUGHTER) I feel I don't have the guts to change my life situation and as a result, I'm accepting someone else's priorities as my own. [00:20:03]

I'm forgetting who I am what I want. But since I have such a strong independent streak... I think I have a strong... I mean, I rebel and then I don't find a way to connect emotionally with the most important, supposedly most important person in my life so I look for other people or other places and don't find them and then... (LAUGHTER) So I continue being miserable? I don't know. (LAUGHTER) Sad?

(PAUSE) [00:21:00]

I mean, most people in academia, they don't have time for emotions, right?

THERAPIST: I see. Because so many other people's jobs are so easy and they work so few hours.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I don't know what that means. "People in academia..."

CLIENT: I mean, they're busy right? They're very busy.

THERAPIST: (SIGH) As opposed to attorneys who don't do any work?

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: People in business or finance, physicians? I don't know. It does seem like a very elitist comment.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: I mean, you could easily make the argument, "Academics have so much more free time, so much more flexible time than any other job." (LAUGHTER) [00:22:01]

CLIENT: That's true. That is true. (PAUSE) So how are they emotional? (PAUSE) I'm at a loss of (inaudible at 00:22:49)

THERAPIST: There does seem a sort of, not even sort of, an idealization of academia. You know, of academics as beneath the fray. Other plebeians have time for emotions but not academics. [00:23:03]

CLIENT: No. I'm not trying to... I mean, I'm sure I'm snobby. But here I'm not trying to defend them or like, you know, eulogize them or glorify them. I'm just saying that... And I'm kind of reasoning with myself like saying like, "Why are you making such a big deal of emotions? You know? Like most people don't have time for emotions and, you know, maybe you really are a drama queen, you know?" (LAUGHTER) So... But then, you know, it's that thing that some professions are, maybe I'm wrong... Yeah, you're right. My assumption is wrong. I don't know. [00:23:53]

It just feels like as if David does it I'm thinking so it must be like this for a lot of his friends and for the larger community that they just have to work all the time because they have to get tenure, they have to get published and so they're mostly just at their computer working and not... Yeah. But I mean, the guy who, the friend, friends who came on Saturday this week they have the week off and they're skiing somewhere. (LAUGHTER) And I'm not saying that's emotion, you know, but it is, you know, vacation.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE) [00:24:48]

CLIENT: But David has to be part of a whole bunch of initiative and things to get meaning out of like and I'm trying to do that right now. And I'm not saying it's bad. It's probably good for me. But it doesn't mean that I get to... You know, it's not all that I am, you know? Then I'm like, "I don't know what I want!" (LAUGHTER) I'm trying so hard to change myself. So I may know what I want. It's just that I'm trying to change and so in the process I'm getting confused (inaudible at 00:25:33) maybe purposefully. So...

THERAPIST: Hmm. Purposefully losing sight.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: What do you think the on purpose part is about?

CLIENT: To be with David, to make it work because he keeps saying he loves me and I'm like, I don't know if anyone else could love me. You know? So... [00:26:03]

THERAPIST: Why not?

CLIENT: I don't know. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) He's very nice. I'm sure there are other nice people but it doesn't seem possible.

THERAPIST: What about it doesn't seem possible?

CLIENT: Well someone could be as nice as him and as sensitive and as straight, you know, and as (PAUSE) honest and righteous.

(PAUSE) [00:27:00]

THERAPIST: Is your heart into what you're saying?

CLIENT: My heart?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. Right now.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: What do you mean heart?

THERAPIST: You seem distracted and you're playing with... Like...

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: If you were trying to sell something right now I wouldn't believe the product.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Yeah. Sorry.

THERAPIST: No need to apologize. I was just pointing out.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Perhaps all this confusion is because of, or not, it's always been there but it keeps, it's come to the surface because of the fact that (inaudible) just e-mailed me. (LAUGHTER) [00:28:05]

I still don't get that stupid person. You know? I really should just send him an e-mail saying, "We cannot be in touch for a few years." (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) He was in India for a couple months. Well, still is but, yeah he send like some weird e-mail. I don't know. Have I told you this? He sent this weird e-mail like a month ago or something, just like a link to a YouTube video, like a song. Which had like weird misogynistic shades, I thought. (LAUGHTER [00:25:59]

So I was like... I asked David. He saw the e-mail. I was like, "Whatever do you think this means?" We were listening to the song. He was like, "Well he loves you." I'm like, "Shut up." (LAUGHTER) So I mean, we just exchange, you know, very mundane e-mails, "How are you? What are you doing? How are your parents? What have you seen?" That sort of thing. And then I felt, obviously what I was feeling was completely different from what I was writing. But, you know, I said in one e-mail, "You know, I just wanted to see the city from your eyes," because I was asking, you know, "What did you do?" this, that. And then after that... Because I thought maybe that was a little too revealing of my feelings right? Does that sound too revealing or no?

THERAPIST: It depends on... Well too revealing means you're revealing more than you want to. So...

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't want to reveal. So, yeah. But if I say, "I just want to see the city through your eyes, is that like flirting? Or is that? [00:30:05]

THERAPIST: Do you feel anxious about your comment to him?

CLIENT: Yeah. But I mean, he didn't respond for like twenty days or something and then he responded and not directly to anything to anything but he just send me a bunch of pictures of some director we had scanned from a book he was reading. So I also ignored the e-mail. You know? And then this week he wrote, back, "Did you get the pictures? (LAUGHTER) I was like, "No. Go away." And then I was like, "Yeah. I did. Thank you," and then we again started exchanging e-mails so...

(PAUSE) [00:30:51]

I mean, it doesn't really damage, play havoc with my emotions, you know? Like, I keep thinking, "Oh, maybe there is a chance, you know?" And I know I shouldn't think that and should move on and... And so much time has passed and all that.

THERAPIST: Well, he certainly awakens this, "Maybe there's a chance for something else."

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) I mean, it's been a year. Why can't I just get over... I guess I was over. Like until he contacted, contacts me. I try not think about it and think less and less. Then as soon as he does, like all of it is back. So maybe it's just too soon, you know, maybe it'll take me a few years. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Maybe it's an antidote to your feeling that no one else could love you. He comes into the picture and you think, "Well, maybe he could love me." [00:32:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I know that he can't. So...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: But in your relationship with David you're really coasting.

CLIENT: Coasting?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: As in?

THERAPIST: You're not, you're not using your driving controls. You're not going in forward, reverse, braking. You're just coasting.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Your foot's not on the pedal. Your foot's not on the brake. You're just coasting.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) (LAUGHTER) I think we're both coasting. I don't either of us are driving and, or braking or...

THERAPIST: That's very true but he's not my patient.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I care about his well being in a general sense but... [00:33:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...his psychological growth and development is not my, part of my job.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I agree with your assessment. (PAUSE) But my guess is also that you want something different than this. Not necessarily even different than him, maybe different from him, but certainly different from the relationship you have right now.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: And this might be... Aside from the commitment piece, this might be exactly what he wants.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: This kind of relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it is.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. [00:34:01]

CLIENT: Someone who doesn't take him in any direction. The relationship is in auto pilot right?

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: And he can just focus 98 percent on work. And I don't find anything wrong with that. I used to. A year ago I found that repulsive. Maybe I still have, I find it weird and odd but I've come to appreciate that because I know it takes... I know what hard work is now (LAUGHTER) in a sense. So... He's cut out for ambitious things so I shouldn't be in his way, you know? So...

THERAPIST: I don't know. People can be very ambitious but also be deeply connected and emotionally invested in the people around them. You see these things as opposites (inaudible)

CLIENT: No I don't. I don't. I know there, there are those people and I know them. [00:35:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: But David is not one of them.

THERAPIST: Well, you were saying before, "Well, he is in academia so maybe he just doesn't have time."

CLIENT: No. I'm... I still stick by my statement that they don't have a lot of, you know, frivolous time to do various things. Well maybe they do. Some of them do (inaudible at 00:35:25) but... Yeah. I don't know. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) I think it's time to ask my mom to be like, "Can you find some work? Even if it's like slightly menial."

(PAUSE) [00:36:00]

I mean, I do have this fear that I'll find someone emotional and then it'll turn, turn out that I don't want that either. So... I'm pretty sure because like last year, when I did go out on a few dates, I was always comparing the people to David and finding them lacking, obviously. So... (PAUSE) I mean, when I say emotional, emotional, emotional, is it just that I'm too needy? And...

THERAPIST: Yes. You're way too needy.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) It could be true. I mean, like, I might just be going through a weird phase and, you know, if I'm strong enough then I won't need that emotional connection. [00:37:01]

THERAPIST: I feel like that's wishful thinking.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's wishful thinking because if that were true, then you wouldn't have to do anything different. You could just stay with David and do what's comfortable.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:38:00]

Why doesn't he make time for fun things?

THERAPIST: He doesn't value fun things.

CLIENT: Why not?

THERAPIST: I don't know. You could ask him.

CLIENT: I'm tired, I'm really tired of having, you know, stupid frivolous conversations with him. (LAUGHTER) Seven years and it's not very ridiculous talking to him about anything non-intellectual or just funny and (inaudible) I go with all this, "You'll get this answer," this, that. And I know it's like stupid. (LAUGHTER) And so... [00:39:19]

THERAPIST: Like an answer in why he doesn't like fun things?

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: That was the most emotion I saw from you today.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: What you just said, "I'm sick of this." I don't know.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Frustration is more emotion than I saw from you today so far.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Today, not in general.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: What I, what I said earlier about like I'm not buying this product, I do feel you go into these times where you're trying to sell yourself and me on some life philosophy.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And, about what you should be able to do without. I don't think you're buying. You're not a convincing spokesperson because you don't buy it either. You just sort of give it lip service.

CLIENT: Hmm. Maybe that's true. I mean, I'm not making it up. But I... I guess I just objectively appreciate it, not emotionally. (LAUGHTER) It's like, "This is a really righteous product. It looks good sitting there." (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:41:01]

(SIGH)

(PAUSE)

I'm meeting with my roommates today and I feel like I want to ask her. (LAUGHTER) Because like I think a couple people will me moving so I'll ask who they are. And it's an expensive place and I don't like the location. (LAUGHTER) But...

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

I guess I'm seeing... I found people in the community who've had... Because I think I was telling you, right, like this mother, daughter. So the daughter is, you know, 36 so she's old, much older than me like she's, she says, you know, she'd rather be alone and, you know, and she doesn't mind that. And I think, "Maybe I'll be okay with being alone." Because like several months ago, November, December, I would not have been able to say that I could be okay with being alone. I'm terrified of that. So... But... (PAUSE) Maybe not so much now. I don't know. I could distract myself with work. So... [00:43:07]

THERAPIST: Well, and alone is relative because you have a lot of people in your life.

CLIENT: I do?

THERAPIST: You're not sure?

CLIENT: Well I have like community people now. I mean, I don't like... I mean, I care about their well being but in a general sense. We don't connect emotionally, not all the time. What?

THERAPIST: Well I was going to say, I don't know the word, but you certainly have lots of groups yeah, in your life whom you're connected to.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Maybe you don't feel you have a lot of people you're connected to one on one but I'm not sure that's a...

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:42:45) actually.

THERAPIST: Fine. When you say, that's fun?

CLIENT: Well like I, I like (inaudible) connections. Like with my roommate, I definitely have an emotional connection. She and I, we get each other, like all of my roommates do. (LAUGHTER) Yeah, like that woman, the mother and daughter, we connect emotionally but also intellectually. [00:44:15]

THERAPIST: She fed you pie.

CLIENT: Yes. (LAUGHTER) It's funny. I want to keep breaking down just so I can be nurtured like that.

THERAPIST: Maybe you don't have to break down to be nurtured like that.

CLIENT: But it's real fun (LAUGHTER) that intensity. It's fun but it's also ridiculously embarrassing.

THERAPIST: Well maybe that's what makes you feel needy because you feel like that's the only way to sort of generate that kind of connection.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess if I get more of that, you know, on regular basis, maybe I won't feel like breaking down all the time. (LAUGHTER) [00:45:00]

THERAPIST: Like how do people feel nurtured without this sense of desperation or urgency?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Getting a piece of pie every day?

CLIENT: Maybe not every day. (LAUGHTER) Every week. (LAUGHTER) Yeah, I don't know about David does it. Maybe he's just a very strong person but I feel like I want that proverbial and literal piece of pie. Like he doesn't. You've seen him, right. He's like reed thin. No, literally he's reed thin and he has no, not much of an appetite for food or life or emotions. Mine is much bigger. We'll stop. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: We do need to stop for today. I will see you on Wednesday. [00:46:01]

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: (inaudible) (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Take care.

CLIENT: You too.

END TRANSCRIPT