TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So I told David (ph) some of the things we discussed here on Monday.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: The thing you said about coasting in the relationship and he said, yeah, that's what he'd like. (LAUGHTER) That's what he'd prefer (inaudible at 00:00:53) (PAUSE) [00:00:55]

Be on autopilot and just not have to think about doing things or put much effort into it. So and I was just wondering like don't relationships get to that point? Like don't all relationships like after several years of being together then you kind of start coasting? (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Well I guess it depends on how you define coasting.

CLIENT: I guess, I guess what he has in mind is not having to worry too much about (PAUSE) well, putting effort into it. You know, you have a routine. This is when you're going to go out and eat together and on this day you'll celebrate this by doing this. And that's all. (inaudible) [00:02:07]

THERAPIST: Well, what do you want?

CLIENT: Well...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:02:15)

THERAPIST: Well you're saying David (ph) is okay with coasting...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...and we talked about it but what do you want?

CLIENT: I don't know. I feel pretty down these past few days. I don't want anything. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) Well like, you know how you engage intensely with your work right? And you figure out new and interesting things to do together and like you don't ever, well, not ever. [00:03:01]

It's hard to. You know, you take things for granted and you're always like... You know, you don't always... You don't say like, "Oh, I know this person perfectly and, you know, there's just nothing new to be done or learned or experienced, you know? Like your work... If that kind of a thing happens with your work, you're stuck, you know, you get stale. So how do you keep up with, how do you make sure your work doesn't get stale, you know? You read, you know, broadly. You meet new people. And your livelihood depends you doing all these things so you do it but like in your relationship you're not so much (inaudible at 00:03:57) you know that that person's not going anywhere so you kind of don't put much effort at all. [00:04:05]

THERAPIST: Is that what you want?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Not to put much effort into a relationship?

CLIENT: Well become kind of self conscious, you know, like, you know, I think, you know, the way he does everything is the right way. So, yeah. I vacillate (ph) from like, "Yeah fine. Let's just do it that way," to trying to find out what I want. (LAUGHTER) So...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Did how he feel about coasting, did that make you happy?

CLIENT: No. (PAUSE) Not really. That's why I've been unhappy. That's why I'm unhappy. (LAUGHTER) [00:05:05]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well then maybe you do know what you want.

CLIENT: Yeah I just haven't had the right resources or like the right kind of whatever it takes to like assert what I want and go and get what I want. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) [00:05:45]

I mean everything else is about it is just so right. We share so much and like he gets... Yeah, and we understand each other and, you know, we have similar ideologies and I really respect his work ethics. (LAUGHTER). So it's hard to, you know, be like, "Oh, but I don't like this tiny little thing," even though I know it's not that time. But it seems like it ought to be tiny, you know? It shouldn't seem to matter so much but the thing is it really does. (LAUGHTER) So...

(PAUSE) [00:07:00]

(SIGH)

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Do you think that's why you've been depressed?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: The last couple days?

CLIENT: Just... I just feel like I don't know what to do now. (LAUGHTER) Like in terms of moving out and... (LAUGHTER) I don't... [00:08:03]

(PAUSE)

It's like I want to give him up. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) Something major has to change for me to like be motivated, you know? I just won't feel motivated to do and bring that change just like all by myself.

(PAUSE) [00:09:00]

(PAUSE) [00:10:00]

I mean don't like very different people remain together and are happy together?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: What do you think you're asking? [00:10:55]

CLIENT: Like... I was talking to my roommate and she was like... I was telling her all the things and like, "Well, you and David are like chocolate and sushi. You have no business being together." (LAUGHTER) And I'm like, "Yeah. We're not on the same plate, not even in the same kitchen."

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) That's actually a really good analogy because chocolate and sushi seem like they really shouldn't be together. I can't even imagine two foods that seem less likely to be paired.

CLIENT: Right. She is a chef so her food, her... Besides she's very, she's brilliant. So... (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: That's a very interesting. Chocolate and sushi.

CLIENT: Yeah so I was (inaudible). You wouldn't even find them in the same kitchen not even, you know, on the same plate. So... But I'm saying like on the chocolate sushi couples who... [00:12:03]

THERAPIST: Thinking about this makes you very nervous and I think that's why you asked that question. Like, it makes you very nervous to think about that maybe you and David are not paired well and then the implication like of leaving him I think make you very nervous you think, "Oh, isn't it just okay? Some people are different."

CLIENT: Yeah. That's true. I mean, why can't we make it work. I mean, he says, sounds like, you know, like I bring what he lacks and he brings what I lack. So sounds like we should complement each other perfectly. (PAUSE) [00:12:53]

I have this other new roommate and she was like (inaudible) she's only seen me and David once and she's already figured it out. She was like, "Yeah. I didn't at all see you guys as a couple. I mean, you're like so personable and like, you know, like, you like to have fun and you're so happy and engaged all the time." This is when we were hanging out at this one get together (inaudible) "and David is so analytical and like, you know, he's like by himself on the side and he won't interact or engage and he's just all by himself." Granted that there might not have been intellectual people or academic people at that party for him to engage with. (LAUGHTER) I guess it (inaudible at 00:13:51) What happens there is that, I mean, I mean, you know, maybe some other people, other couple might make that work. [00:14:01]

But in our case it's like, you know, I may see him looking bored and judging everyone and I feel bad and I feel like, "Oh, I shouldn't be doing this either. I should be going home and I should, you know, take him home and get him away from all this and, you know, so that he can get to bed or so that he can read or he can work and I'm wasting his time." And it's not just me. Like, he usually hates wasting time. Like it'd be ideal for him if he were just working every minute. (LAUGHTER) And I just feel like a fool. You know, I feel... (LAUGHTER) I mean, it's so stupid and silly that I don't have the same kind of drive to work all the time and I want to do silly things and useless things like hang out with people and like yeah... (SIGH) [00:15:15]

So if I weren't so self conscious, if I thought it would be okay for me to be the way I am, couldn't we make it work, you know? (PAUSE) I don't know. (LAUGHTER) Can we make it work?

THERAPIST: Should I know?

CLIENT: Yes. (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I don't... Yeah. I mean, my thought is this is related but also not. It's one of the reasons I suggested couples therapy. [00:16:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I see what you're... I mean, you're saying people complement each other but there are ways in which you feel like you're starving in this relationship...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...to use a food analogy.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so, can David meet some of those needs? I don't know. But not the way you're doing it now, no. (LAUGHTER) I mean, it would take something intentional, you know, like some actual working on the relationship to see if, from your vantage point, he can be more emotionally available or more engaged.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: Maybe he can't. I don't know. (LAUGHTER) I mean, that's where that recommendation came from.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you have so many other conflicts and fears and struggles, you aside from that, aside from sort of the quote unquote rational, "Is this a good relationship for you?"

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...that get sort of tangled up. [00:17:00]

CLIENT: What, like what?

THERAPIST: Like, you know, you think, "Well, maybe the ideal should be to work all the time and hence David is great because he's an ideal role model for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which is a very different way of thinking, a different frame of mind than, you know, that you want someone with adventure and love and passion.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Hmm. Yeah, I mean they do seem two extremes, I guess. (PAUSE) I mean, I've suggested to and he doesn't seem to be like... I mean, he seems reluctant to do that, to do therapy. And I think, "Oh, it'd be another drain on his time." (LAUGHTER) You know what I mean? He has so much going on and I feel bad for asking him over again and again. [00:18:09]

(PAUSE)

And on another level, I feel, I feel bad that I couldn't like, you know, change him. (LAUGHTER) Because I feel like he's changed me and maybe, I don't know if you'll agree with that or no. Has he changed me do you think?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: When you ask these questions I'm don't, not sure if it's a way of not looking inside yourself or if you honestly believe that I would know that.

CLIENT: Well objective opinion. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: But how would I know that? I don't know how I'd know that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How would I know that? I mean, you must have an idea in mind. [00:19:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. Like... (PAUSE) Well, no it's just the objective opinion that like from what we've been talking about. Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: This I think and important, when you ask me questions that I couldn't possibly know but there's a way... So (inaudible) Or at least, my feeling is I couldn't possibly know. So there's something that's happening that you feel I would know these things where I feel like I couldn't possibly know these things. [00:19:47]

CLIENT: Maybe. (LAUGHTER) What I mean is I have faith that at least he's been a role model in the sense that I could choose to learn from him so that would be the change. But, I mean, he... I haven't changed him. Like I haven't made him emotional enough. But then he was like, "Well, I just have a different way of interacting with people. Why does it have to be the way you do it, you know?" And I'm like, "Yeah, that's valid." (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) [00:21:00]

I'm just afraid that I'm asking too much and I'm asking for something or someone that's either not there or would turn out to be very bad for me. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: It just seemed like being with David is about managing expectations really.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) But I mean, men generally are not emotional anyways, right? Like, well I don't know. I hate generalizing. (LAUGHTER) [00:22:09]

THERAPIST: Well that statement is about managing expectations. You're saying to yourself, "Well, I shouldn't expect for him to be emotional because men aren't like that."

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Well so is managing expectations a bad thing? I mean, you say it in a way that sounds positive. (LAUGHTER) [00:22:55]

I mean, you do it so you don't get out of control right? (PAUSE) Because there's so many things in life you have to right? Like you have to lower your expectations so you can reach for the sky but realize when you reach (inaudible at 00:23:21) ceiling. So...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Right. (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: But it begs the question of how do you know the ceiling.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, you said you should only reach to your ceiling. But how do you know where the ceiling is to know that you should stop?

CLIENT: Yeah, how do you?

THERAPIST: That's a good question. [00:24:01]

CLIENT: Like however far you can reach, that's your ceiling. (LAUGHTER) You know?

THERAPIST: But that's a chicken and the egg. You know, you never... The idea of expectations is not being sure how far you can reach.

CLIENT: Mmm. So you're saying you should push yourself, no?

THERAPIST: This must be very hard for you at times. You're so looking for like this, "What about this? What about this?"

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I don't know. (PAUSE) I think it's very hard to ask yourself the question, "What do I want?" because you're afraid you're going to go out of control.

CLIENT: Yeah. (LAUGHTER) Isn't it a valid fear? I mean... [00:25:03]

THERAPIST: It's a completely invalid fear. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: What? (PAUSE) So it's valid. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: So it's valid.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: So you ask me if it's a valid fear, I answered, a little tongue in cheek, but I answered and you thought I was wrong.

CLIENT: Well because when you do it that way, I know you're making fun. So... Right? (LAUGHTER) Aren't most people afraid of like getting out of control? Like...

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: No? (LAUGHTER) Aren't you afraid?

THERAPIST: No. (PAUSE) Getting out of control of what? [00:26:03]

CLIENT: Well, straying far, far away from your bounds. Like you said, know you ceiling. So if you know your ceiling... I know David is, sorry to put it this way, but, you know, he's the best I can do. You know? So like, I mean this is where I'm going to get, you know, depending on many things, you know, the way I dress or the way I look, you know, my weight, my height, my, you know, where I am in life, the kind of money that I have, the circle I'm part of or not part of. You know, like he's what I have. So that's the ceiling. So and that keeps you bounded and keeps you indoors, you know, and not like bouncing off the rooftops. So... [00:27:55]

(PAUSE)

I mean, it keeps you bounded and that could limit your expectations and your freedom but it kind of tells you who you are. I mean, it would be great and liberating to like break off from that and like discover new things about yourself and like things that you may have expressed or... But there's a lot of like, you know, danger in that. Like, I did that last year, right? I mean, I did kind of see what else was out there and I don't think I had many good experiences. (LAUGHTER) Sometimes, not very often, I think about it and go, "Oh, that was nice. (LAUGHTER) You know, I was free. I had... Going crazy. (LAUGHTER) But that was fun." [00:28:01]

(PAUSE)

So how do you know when to stay bounded and when to break, break free? Like how much you can break free and how much you stick your bounds? Isn't that a sign of maturity? Like, you know, people say, "Yeah, I know my limit or I know where the boundary is."

(PAUSE) [00:29:00]

Is that my personal dilemma that I should answer? Like, knowing my bounds and breaking free, when to do that?

THERAPIST: It's certainly an ongoing struggle for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:29:59]

THERAPIST: Maybe this thought that there's objective facts out there makes you feel safe.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like, that I know... The things that you ask me... Because sometimes you ask me things that I have no idea how to even respond to it. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But there's a way in which... I mean, I think there are a lot of reasons you ask me the kinds of questions you do but I think... And even the fact that, you know, that one would know their limits and know when they should push, I mean, you know, over time you might have better sense of it. But how can you ever really know? You know it empirically, you know? How do you ever really know? Could I have gotten something better or did I go to far? How could you ever really know? These are like uncertainties in life. There are values and choices and responding to your desires.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) [00:31:00]

I guess I struggle between the known and the unknown, I guess. Not knowing much is certainly a big fear for me and I guess when I ask you those questions I am really struggling and I'm trying really hard to get some kind of footing. You know? Because otherwise I feel like I'm floating and it can be a, you know, a giddy feeling and it can be scary and not liberating. So...

THERAPIST: I can see that. I mean, the, the counterpoint to that is though that I often think that you do know. You just don't want to know.

CLIENT: Probably.

THERAPIST: So that, I think that's an important piece too.

CLIENT: Yeah. How do you mean? [00:31:55]

THERAPIST: In a lot of different ways like, you know, you have feelings about and thoughts about whether David is the right person. You're confused about but you don't know. But you ask questions that you'd like to simplify things in your questions because it gets you away from complexity and confusion.

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

THERAPIST: You know, like do, do different people... Can people who are different be together? You know, the question is coming I think today came from somewhere you're feeling anxious about the feeling that maybe you and David are not right for each other or just, or probably more specifically that he's not what you want.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: To the extent that you don't make waves for him, you are the right person for David. David wants a very low maintenance relationship.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: And he loves you and so this is perfect for him. So but you have different needs and wishes and you're not sure if he meets those. [00:33:00]

CLIENT: Well, yeah. I mean, like I, I feel like trying to take care of myself and provide all the things and the excitement that I want to my, all by myself. Like why do I need him to do that when he cannot, you know? And like it's really hard to give him up because I know he loves me, you know? Like I don't want to make it a sob story but not having the kind of parents who did, you know, knew anything about love. It's hard for me to be like, "Oh, you know, I've had plenty of love." (LAUGHTER) So...

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: That was a funny comment, not to make it a sob story. [00:33:59]

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Well, I'm trying to not... Because we've talked about this right, I think, feeling like, "Oh, I'm the only sad person and there are other people that don't have sorrow. I'm an expert at sorrow." Yeah, I try to make that part of my identity so much. Because I feel like, you know, people have had different kinds of struggles and this is my struggle and, you know, it's specific in particular to me but that is all that it is. You know, it's not... It doesn't make me an expert on sorrow in general. Just specific instance of sorrow that I've had. So, yeah. (LAUGHTER) I guess I'm trying to put it in perspective.

(PAUSE) [00:35:00]

THERAPIST: I think, yeah. I think about it why I responded to that is what you just said is a comment of quite a lot of weight. That, you know, your attachment to David and your feeling his love and your reluctance to let go of that even if you feel ultimately that he's not the best partner for you, that letting go of that would be so painful because it was such, such something that you were deprived of for so long. So that seemed like a statement of such weight and import. So when you said, "Oh, not to make it sound like a sob story," made it seem like a lot lighter than it really seems it is.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I'm afraid to dwell on that. (LAUGHTER) I don't know. I feel like maybe I'll be okay. I don't need his love, you know, but like, what do I know, you know? Maybe if I've been away from him and his love for some time, I'll feel deprived of it, you know? [00:36:07]

(PAUSE) [00:36:59]

I guess on some level, he's like wanting to take care of me like a parent. (LAUGHTER) And he does. And, and then I also want him to be the right partner because, you know, we're a couple. So I think I put a lot of really, you know, demands on him. Although I try not to love for paternal love from him. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) [00:37:45]

Maybe that's also like, you know, if he were to do therapy, maybe he would see that, "Yeah, how can I be, you know, like romantic with her because she's, you know, she wants me to love her like a brother kind of thing? You know?" Maybe I look for that and I shouldn't I know. But... (LAUGHTER) Yeah. (PAUSE) I think about (inaudible at 00:38:31) (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:38:51]

Yeah, why would I do that? Why do I look? Yeah, how can I replace one thing for the other like that? (PAUSE) [00:40:00]

Is it because I feel safe with him? (LAUGHTER) But couples should feel safe with each other, right? I mean, they shouldn't be feeling scared of each other all the time. (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:40:59]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, I think the issue of safety with him is really complicated. Because you trust him and you like his sort of, you like a steadiness. And the other pieces that the way in which you feel unsafe about yourself and unsafe about your desires and all the ways they can lead you to sort of untoward things. And so you feel like being with him means that you can tamp those things down and that makes you feel safe too but very frustrated.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's sort of a sense of safety but at a high cost.

CLIENT: High cost?

THERAPIST: Well it taxes you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You don't like it and you feel deprived.

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, safety sounds like a positive thing and something you ought to have. Just not to the extent that it clips your wings, I guess.

THERAPIST: The difference between being safe and being confined.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or I guess mutilated because clipping one's wings that means a form of being mutilated right?

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) He doesn't feel any of this, I think. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I think that's true.

CLIENT: I'm sure he feels a lot of other anxiety but in a regular relationship but he doesn't feel clipped or confined or... [00:43:05]

THERAPIST: That doesn't sound like who he is.

CLIENT: Yeah. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: That's not his spirit.

CLIENT: Yeah. (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: We're going to need to stop for today, okay? I will see you Monday.

CLIENT: Yeah. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. Take care.

CLIENT: You too.

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