TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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[no voice until 00:03:15]

CLIENT: My friend wanted to know if you would know other therapists like yourself.

THERAPIST: Sure. For a referral?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Sure. [ ] (inaudible at 00:03:28) In Providence?

CLIENT: I suppose, yeah. Somewhere within her prime network.

THERAPIST: Do you know what her insurance is?

CLIENT: Same as mine.

THERAPIST: The same one. Yeah, I know a couple of good people I can certainly recommend.

CLIENT: Okay. (long pause) [00:05:01] I'm just wondering what to talk about. (chuckles) (pause) Last time the conversation was a little abstract so I don't remember the topic. I'm not very good at abstract thought conversations. (pause) [00:06:01] Things aren't really very different from just a week ago. I think they're the same. We talk and he's nice so I just give up saying to him any negative things. (pause) I had spring break last week so I had hopes of getting a lot done and I didn't, so I feel bad about that. [00:07:04] I've been stuck, feeling in a rut. I really don't know how to snap out of it, but at least after a couple of days I realize I should do something different. Still, I wish it wouldn't take days. I wish it would take maybe hours and then even less than that to kind of realize I'm not being productive and do things to think differently. I don't really know how to do that. (pause) [00:08:29] I'm trying not to think too much about Victor because I don't know what he wants but he's back in touch again via e-mails. They kind of threw me off a little bit because it's been too long since all that has happened. I'm trying to get over him but I guess I'm not quite there yet. I asked my friend, "Why do you think he's e-mailing me?" and they were like, "He may just be lonely or whatever or maybe it's a power thing. When you know you have power over someone and you're feeling weak or something, you can just check on them and make sure they're still under your power." (chuckles) [00:09:22] I try not to read anything other than that into his e-mails. (sighs) (long pause) [00:10:37]

It's good to have stability. Stability can give you power a little bit, but then I know that freedom can also give you power very different kinds. Very, so I have to find the balance, I guess. (long pause) [00:12:47]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: (sighs) I guess I'm trying to articulate some kinds of fears I have of being boundless. I'm trying to find concrete examples and I'm not really succeeding. I'm trying to think, to find your dreams, be in the zone that can be productive, you have to find that first. There is a lot of anxiety when you don't find that and then, even if you do find it, I guess people are then perceived to produce. But for me, I get other anxieties about being bound and wondering if the boundaries are accurate or if they should be different than what they are. [00:14:09] I don't know if I'm making any sense. (long pause) [00:15:01] Like with Chris, I know he knows me very well well, pretty much. Other times I'm like, "I thought you knew me? How could you do this or assume that?" Barring those few moments he knows me well, so there's that comfort level and you feel safe in that and you know that what will happen is that a certain set of outcomes can be expected. But when I'm talking to other people, it can be a little scary. I get these moments when I'm like, "No, wait. I'm with Chris right now," when we talk about something else that might be more enriching. I don't know. It's that fear of, not just giving that up because nothing's happening right now, but in terms of new or interesting. [00:16:17] He brings a certain kind of knowledge and having that seems to be useful, but who knows how useful anything is. But when I'm with other people like when my roommate was talking about something, I just had that feeling that I was wasting my time because those people don't know me. Those people don't share the kind of culture that I would like to know about. But then after a while when she was telling me this very beautiful story about her travels in China, I was surprised after a while that I learned something new. [00:17:04] That space that she created was kind of weird. It wasn't something that I'm used to with Chris. It had weird things in it, things I hadn't encountered before. It took me out of my comfort zone a little bit, I guess. I just wonder how many of those experiences are useful or productive or they just take you so far away from what you know that they can cause you to be unproductive. (chuckles) I don't know if I'm making any sense. [00:18:04] (pause)

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you're not making sense to you or to me?

CLIENT: To myself. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You're wondering what happens if you depart from the familiar.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you get something new or are you just so disoriented that nothing new can happen? That's interesting by you saying that it seems so abstract, what we were talking about last time, because in some ways I feel like it had a specific concreteness to it in terms of whether you want to stay with Chris or not.

CLIENT: I guess that could be the underlying theme of everything (laughs). To me it seemed more abstract. I was a bit confused or I didn't remember as much. [00:19:06] It's great to have new experiences, but how many new experiences can you have? I don't know if that's a valid question. Probably not. Even with my mom I'm trying to create that space where it's more productive rather than destructive and me just avoiding her or misjudging her and despising her any of those negative things that often happen between the two of us. Like last week, I had very long conversations with her when she was talking about her childhood. I really liked hearing about them. I would like to just create more of that space where she feels comfortable sharing with me because I know she's scared of me. (chuckles) [00:20:14] I'm judgmental, so she probably also tends to avoid me, if not physically then emotionally.

THERAPIST: Did you say your mother?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What is she scared of?

CLIENT: I'm very judgmental. Chris tells me that. She's scared of me. (laughs) She may not have said that herself, but . . .

THERAPIST: She's scared of your judgment?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:21:21] Yeah, so . . . (pause) I guess I could say I'm a very scared person who doesn't really seek out that many new experiences. That's just been the default. And when I do get the experiences, I do get flabbergasted and I don't know what to do with them. Even as a child, my life was very secluded. I didn't have that many relatives that I was sent to see. It was just me and my mom and then, when my dad came along, he made it clear that I wasn't allowed to go down and play with the neighbors. [00:22:32] I still went and played with them, but the whole time during then I was defying his orders and, if he found out, I would get beaten up or something. (pause) So I didn't have that many friends. At school you don't really get to talk about much. There were studies. You go and there are classes and during lunchtime you don't really have that many conversations and then you go back home. I feel like I've led a very sheltered life. [00:23:33]

THERAPIST: And yet you were exposed to so much.

CLIENT: I was just at home. People have adventures. Their bodies experience stuff, I guess, which is not to say that their heart doesn't, but people fall and have accidents (chuckles) and get lost, like hiking expeditions; or they have sexual awakenings at a camp. (laughs) [00:24:23] I try not to listen to that, that I haven't had that many experiences, because I feel like [ ] (inaudible at 00:24:37) at college or with the church people, that was something weird for me. (chuckles) I don't go into bars every week or play pool with people. (chuckles) It seems to me that not that many people do, actually, contrary to popular belief that everyone does. (long pause) [00:26:20] I was hanging out with a couple of friends this weekend and when she was much younger she got divorced. I was just wondering what was her experience with that. She's had a lot of boyfriends. I was trying not to feel like I had not had a lot of boyfriends, like not being adventurous in that regard either. I guess I do wonder. What are my adventures in? Am I just a staid, scared little person? Scared of a lot of experiences? Probably. I'm just wondering if I'm okay with that. I don't know if I am.

THERAPIST: What are you scared of?

CLIENT: Everything. I guess that's what I was trying to articulate earlier, how much of new experiences can I handle before I feel that anxiety of being back at home, being in my comfort zone with Chris. I don't expose my lack of experience so much. (chuckles) [00:28:02] (pause) I guess this is one of several self-doubts that I have. Do you feel like that? Do you feel like you lack experience in your personal life?

THERAPIST: And what would you feel if I said yes and what would you feel if I said no?

CLIENT: I wouldn't feel like such a fool if you said yes.

THERAPIST: I see; because you're comparing yourself to me.

CLIENT: Yeah, normal people or other people.

THERAPIST: What makes you a fool for lacking experiences? What makes that you being a fool?

CLIENT: When a person is talking about doing this, that and the other and I haven't done anything like that and I don't know how to comment. I don't know what to say. I don't know how to understand what they're saying, how to engage with them. [00:29:25] (pause) I guess I'm wondering if they feel they're not like me or think less of me if I don't have anything interesting to say in response. (pause) I guess I'm trying to learn that maybe they're not looking for that, you know? That could be true. Not everyone, when they're talking, expect the other person to be like, "I have the same exact feelings." Sometimes people are just looking for good listeners. Like when my friend is talking about her divorce, obviously she knows that I've never been married so I don't know; but I could sympathize and say, "Wow. How brave of you," instead of saying, "The exact same thing happened to me." (laughs) [00:31:03]

THERAPIST: Is that the friend who wants a referral?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it came up that you were in therapy?

CLIENT: Yeah. She's the one who I had a fight with earlier and then made up with.

THERAPIST: The one who didn't give the feedback that you wanted?

CLIENT: Yeah. She's very nice. I'm glad we made up. I went out with another friend and she makes me really depressed, but I still see her because I don't think, like Chris, that this person gives me something only that I [lack.] (ph?) I was telling her about Chris also and she was like, "You know, I bet he doesn't like me." I was like, "You know, that might be true." (laughs) I felt bad saying that. (pause) I was just talking to her and saying that I couldn't imagine living in the suburbs. That's another big thing for me. I can't go to grocery stores. [00:32:42] I can't go to the indoor grocery stores all the time and driving through all of them really depresses me.

THERAPIST: What about it?

CLIENT: I don't know. I just have a very, very strong association with my years working instead of following my passion and living with Chris in my room and feeling so claustrophobic and hemmed in, having no freedom to do anything that I want, having no job. Except the joy of family, I really want to know that. Seeing people's little homes, secluded and not seeing anyone walking on the street really depresses me. [00:33:42] My mind just shuts down. I would love to be cured of that, but I don't know how to even proceed.

THERAPIST: Cured of disliking the suburbs?

CLIENT: Yeah. I wish I were strong. I would see that as a strength. I can drive through these suburbs and not feel anxious one bit. (laughs) They cannot affect me, affect my mood. (pause) I guess also it's the association of coming to the U.S. for the first time and living [ ] (inaudible at 00:34:38) was a very, very small town. Coming from a place like Nepal that was really, literally overcrowded. [00:34:54]

THERAPIST: That's interesting when you talk about being so sheltered, I think you immigrated to a different country. That's not being sheltered in a particular way for sure.

CLIENT: I guess I see it as going from one sheltered experience to another kind of sheltered experience. I don't know why I'm thinking in that specific way of being sheltered, but you don't see it at sheltered?

THERAPIST: I don't know. I'm listening and wanting to hear your experiences.

CLIENT: What does it mean, sheltered?

THERAPIST: I don't know. It's a term you were using. (chuckles) It's a good question. I don't know how you use it.

CLIENT: Like generally, what do you think of when you think sheltered? [00:36:01]

THERAPIST: Sheltered has a positive connotation of having safety from war, hostility, right? That's what shelter is. It's a space of safety. Then it has a negative connotation of being sheltered, which usually is too sheltered, like cut off from experience, new experience, adventures and being secluded.

CLIENT: Yeah, so it's weird. My shelter was so yeah. I don't know why I think in those terms because it's not like outside was a war zone. Maybe I was told to think of it as a war zone, like when my dad or any male authority comes, they make their presence, their authority by saying, "I'm protecting you from that mad, bad world outside." I think I'm getting at something very fundamental to myself, to my core. Do we have time? [00:37:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah. We have six or seven minutes.

CLIENT: With my mom, when we were alone, I was thankful of those years because I feel like there was the right kind of shelter, the right amount of shelter. I loved those years. Those were my happy moments and what happened to me at that time, when I was sexually molested, (chuckles) that was a bad thing to have happen; and yet, emotionally, I don't feel depressed by them. I don't feel like the technical definition of depression, I don't associate that with that. [00:38:07] My body might have buried memories of that, but I don't think that. So I guess her shelter didn't work in that way that it didn't protect me from this violation, and yet my mind feels completely at ease about those years. She and I were two women living by ourselves; a six year old and a 30 year old. I feel quite bold when I think about those years. I think, "What liberation, what freedom, figuring out the world by ourselves and getting hurt in the process, but yet not having anyone's judgment telling us 'that was bad' 'that was right' 'do it this way'"; that judgment, that cloud wasn't there and it was so free. I felt boundless. [00:39:15] Maybe it's just childhood, but I've had very, very vivid spiritual dreams during that time. I still remember some of them. I just felt comforted and nestled, and yet I felt like I couldn't have experienced anything and everything and anything could have happened and it was still all right.

THERAPIST: Was this right after your father left?

CLIENT: No, this was before he came.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I still remember the first time I saw him.

THERAPIST: You said you remember some of the dreams you had. What were they?

CLIENT: In one of them I think my mom and I were lying in bed and I had this vision of a staircase that went straight up to the sky. I was climbing that staircase and feeling a little weird about leaving my mom, but also very (pause) powerful and touched, touched by a higher authority. I feel like that was my first experience with God or something (laughs) at that time. [00:40:59]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like she felt liberated during that time, too?

CLIENT: I think so. She would do everything. She was bringing up a child. She was working I think she was working yeah. She took me everywhere with her. She had to stand in line to pay the bills. This was before we could pay our bills online. (laughs) Yeah. (pause) I try to feel something like that when I am not with Chris. I try to tell myself that without a man's judgment and influence and his bounds and telling me this is the world and this is your experience in it, without that, how liberating is it? [00:42:01] But somehow I can't replicate the same kind of emotions I felt as a six-year-old, surprisingly. (laughs) I feel more anxious. It's easy for me to judge my mom from my very unbiased vantage point, "You were better off when you didn't have your husband." I don't know the particulars of her experience so, obviously, it's very easy for me to say those things because when I place myself in the same situation like, "Look, you can be quite productive and happy without your boyfriend," that's not the case. I can't say the same thing because I know the particulars of my experience. I know that I have attachment with him and I miss the kinds of conversations that we have when I don't have them. (laughs) [00:43:04]

THERAPIST: You're trying to understand her experience through your experience.

CLIENT: Of my experience through her experience.

THERAPIST: Interesting. You're trying to understand your experience through her experience.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Huh. It's interesting.

CLIENT: I haven't succeeded.

THERAPIST: You said that it feels fundamental. In what way?

CLIENT: What were we talking about when I said that?

THERAPIST: You were talking about being six and feeling free.

CLIENT: Yeah. Whatever I had in mind when I said that. (pause) [00:44:03] I guess what we were talking about, like boundless versus boundaried and (sighs) living. I've lost that sensation of thought. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Cecelia, we do need to stop for today. I'll get you a referral, hopefully in the next couple of days, okay?

CLIENT: Yeah. Are you seeing new patients?

THERAPIST: I do have a few openings. I don't typically see people, see friends.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what I thought.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think not even for me, per se, but I think it's nice for people to have their own therapists.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's why I felt weird when she asked me, so I said maybe I would ask.

THERAPIST: I know some good people so I can give you those names, probably in a couple of days.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care.

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