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CLIENT: Here's your check.

THERAPIST: Thanks, I will take it.

CLIENT: Thanks. How are you?

THERAPIST: I'm pretty well, thanks.

CLIENT: Good. Do you do pushups in here?

THERAPIST: Sometimes. Why do you ask?

CLIENT: Because I would do pushups in here if I were in here all day. And (inaudible at 00:00:55).

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:01:03) find me at -

THERAPIST: Thank you. [LAUGHING]

CLIENT: Do I make you nervous in person?

THERAPIST: (pause) Tell me what you're wondering?

CLIENT: Well, I sense more of a pure spirit by e-mail than I do in person. And maybe that's just because tone is really different in e-mail. There's no possibility of further anything. [00:02:13]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. I don't like the question. I don't think I'm going to answer it.

CLIENT: Okay. (pause) Okay. I had a tough conversation with my mom about discussing pain with her children. It took me about 15 minutes to get the question out. It wasn't like I didn't know what to say, or I was nervous, but I wanted to fully contextualize the question, so I started with like, well, in therapy, often people talk about or often people examine the influence of their families on their current life. [00:03:55]

Anyway, so I think it was pretty hard for her. She cried a lot, and she was so willing to discuss in very she said she was very proud of me, and her answer was so my, okay, so my question was why didn't we really discuss the nature of pain or suffering, like what it's like, what it feels like. And I acknowledged that we had been, my brother and I have been equipped with a lot of tools to address or overcome difficulties, but we haven't spent a lot of time just knowing them. [00:05:05]

And she said that when she and my dad were going through painful times, they really didn't want their children to know or be a part of it beyond like Mom's very sad right now, but she's going to be fine, or whatever. And then her other response was that men don't talk about their feelings that much. I was like, well, that's not true. Some men do. [00:06:00]

And then she said, ‘Well, Dad's actually a private person, and I am not, and I talk about my feelings a lot, but I talk about them with my mom, and not really anyone else, except for my adult children,' because she thought it was important to make the distinction between -

THERAPIST: When you were a kid and now.

CLIENT: Yeah. In particular, her painful journey that she talked about was having my dad's father live with them from the day they got married until now. And she was like, I was never, that's not an appropriate discussion to have with my children because it would've changed the way that you thought of him, and we wanted you to love him, and appreciate him, and get everything you could out of him. [00:07:10]

And then, okay, then I was like, okay, that's fine, but what about our own pain, and suffering. At first she was like, you know, we've been very lucky that we haven't really had to face very bad things, and we talked about others in the family who have, and it was like, well, they don't really talk about it, and she was like, ‘Well, they might, they just don't really talk about it with them.' It's not they probably talk about it to my grandmother, but who knows. [00:08:01]

And then I brought up the fact that I have experienced a lot of pain around separation, and that that was very difficult and raw. I didn't really know what to do with my thoughts during this time, especially when I was young. And she didn't, she said that, yeah, that was really hard and we sort of, at some point, just accepted, we just had a really, really hard time to transition. And I said, you accepted it. It's like, that's great, but clearly, there was some process that didn't really happen for me, or couldn't have happened until now or whatever. She laughed. She agreed that they didn't really work, or they didn't really work on helping me know it well. [00:09:19]

She cried when she, at some point when she started to say that I've been so happy and positive throughout my life, and this is a new and very hard phase for her, and for me. And I assured that I am still very happy and positive. I think I've just, I haven't lost anything, but I think I've added a dimension of whatever. I don't know. [00:10:03]

THERAPIST: Do you know what makes this phase so hard for her?

CLIENT: I think it's hard for her to see me suffer, even though I've had it before. But, I don't know. We talked a little bit about how I think I have suffered before. I just haven't really looked at it. So I guess that's the dimension that seems to be developing. It's like suffering, and then looking at suffering, and not trying to overcome it in the ways that I used to.

THERAPIST: I'm wondering how much the difficulty she's having now with your being in it points back towards what had taken some time for you to be into it. Because, not intending to fall apart, but I'm wondering if there was this sense on both of your parts of how painful it would be for her, and so that may be part of why you shied away from it, or felt like it would be -

CLIENT: I don't think I knew. Maybe I didn't know because of what you're saying about what you were saying, but there was no (inaudible at 11:58). Enough to really be fully cautious. (pause) I think my dad would be incredible. I think he would benefit a lot from some kind of talk therapy. But I don't think he would ever do it. We talked a lot about my dad's life and the suffering he's endured, and how he doesn't really talk much about it, and I know I've probably had probably five conversations with him throughout my life about his own pain. [00:13:16]

And my mom agreed, and said that your dad has, my dad has been, he has a, he really has a gift of focusing on the positive and everything else comes out in his sleep. So there's this neat compartmentalization of his waking and his subconscious life, and he has a very disturbed dream life. [00:13:59]

THERAPIST: Oh, so he sleeps okay, but his dreams are very -

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Disturbing?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I guess he sleeps okay, as much as he can, when your dreams are disturbing. His brother committed suicide when he was 21.

THERAPIST: No kidding?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: How old was your dad? Was, I don't know if your dad was 21?

CLIENT: Eighteen.

THERAPIST: Okay. So then I imagine they were close.

CLIENT: They were close, but they didn't live in the same town. They were very close.

THERAPIST: Had they grown up in the same house?

CLIENT: I think until, so my dad's mom died when he was eight. She burned in a cooking fire.

THERAPIST: Oh. [00:14:55]

CLIENT: And my grandfather who had, who had lived with us our whole life, raised two sons and a daughter, and they all sort of had to scatter out because schooling was only good in some parts of the region, and that was the most important thing, so they all, at some point, went their separate ways during the school year, and then would spend all their summers together. And they each lived with other family members, so it wasn't like they were, there was a very close family, and my mom, my dad lived with his grandmother for a while. Anyway. So my aunt went to medical school, and my dad's brother was in medical school, and when he committed suicide, but it wasn't really acknowledged that he committed suicide.

THERAPIST: Why not? [00:16:04]

CLIENT: Like that whole thing has never been clear to me, and I was always told that he died in a car accident until I was 20 or something.

THERAPIST: Is it clear why he committed suicide?

CLIENT: I think he was depressed, and I don't know if he was bipolar. But I think, I get the sense that back then, your communication with your family was in letters, and -

THERAPIST: Not over Facebook.

CLIENT: Not over Facebook, and in the summer, and telegrams if it was urgent. No one really knew. So my grandfather who is incredibly disciplined man. I don't understand why he's made these choices, but he vowed to make all these sacrifices at the time of his wife's death. [00:17:13]

Like he gave up meat. He gave up smoking. He vowed never to marry again. And I was born on the lunar calendar day that my grandmother died, and when I was born, people in the family had said and have said that I am a reincarnation of my grandmother. And it's like the biggest holiday of the year is lunar calendar day. [00:17:57]

THERAPIST: You mean it's not just -

CLIENT: The day. It's like the holiday.

THERAPIST: It also happens to be a holiday.

CLIENT: So she died on the day of Ranspur (ph), and then I was born on the day of Ranspur (ph). More and more support for why sometimes I feel special beyond my control.

THERAPIST: Both having that birthday and being sort of viewed as being her incarnation.

CLIENT: Yeah, more of the second, I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Except [00:19:04]

CLIENT: I think my dad would be fascinating to talk to, but he's pretty, he hates immigrant, he won't watch any movies about immigrants showing up in a new country and making a life for themselves. He always says happiness is overrated, and yet he's so happy and positive, and yet he has dreams about his brother, since the time of his brother's suicide until now, the same dreams.

THERAPIST: Do you know any of them? [00:19:45]

CLIENT: No. I think, okay, I guess I know a little bit, I think. His brother is asking for help from my dad, in a very desperate and scary way. My dad can't help him. He also has these recurring water dreams, which are very cool, and he talks about these a lot where he can breathe under water, and he lives in the sea. And he swims around and he sees all these amazing things. (pause) Anyway. [00:20:48]

I also talked about (pause) what pain feels like with Jeremy, and I feel really lucky that Jeremy is, I don't know, who he is. And we came up with this visual, because I was really having a hard time with describing what it feels like when it feels, when I feel bad. And it, it is a feeling of I feel, I'm trying not to, have I told you I'm reading a Carl Rogers book?

THERAPIST: Reading some On Becoming a Person? I think you did mention earlier. Like (inaudible at 22:00).

CLIENT: Well, he has this couple of chapters that I'm finding really, I really like him, and I'm finding in these chapters really helpful, and he talks about these seven stages of becoming a process, or these seven stages in therapy that he's seen in his patients of where the end is you experience things as a process, and things are fresh and new. So I think it's influencing the ways that I'm talking here because I'm noticing a lot more when I'm talking about feelings from afar, and not being them. Yeah. [00:23:16]

THERAPIST: And how does that relate to what you were saying about -

CLIENT: I was describing this conversation and I noticed that I was using a lot of detached language, or third person, like, when it feels bad, it feels like this. Which is not precise, but it, maybe that's just what, the language that I'm using there.

THERAPIST: Well there was a lot in the content of what you're talking about involving, I guess mostly your parents distancing themselves from painful feelings or memories.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And it also, it makes me go back a little bit to the question you asked me about whether you make me anxious. That may be those are a different tact, I'm not sure, but -

CLIENT: Nervous. [00:24:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I, at first, I heard it as you were talking, I wondered if there was something there about my dealing with, or recognizing, acknowledging, dealing with feeling anxious. I mean, at first I heard it more in terms of you wanted to know if you were making me anxious, and I imagined wondering about what has taken that in terms of what my reaction to you, and impressions of you, and so forth. And then you were talking, I guess I also wondered whether there was a question, like, hey, are you comfortable with feeling anxious? Are you that okay? Are you [00:26:13]

CLIENT: Mm, yeah, maybe.

THERAPIST: Can I closet that away, or deal with it, or talk about it, or what? (pause)

CLIENT: Like asking you to lead by example, or something? [00:27:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah, or maybe probing a little to see if I'm like your parents in this way.

CLIENT: That's going too far.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Or at least I am nothing, I have nothing to contribute to that because I'm not conscience of that connection, if it's there.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh, right.

CLIENT: If that made be (inaudible at 27:37). So the visual we came up with, which is relevant here because I think it helps me find, like I talked about, I described my feelings to Jeremy, which is helpful. And it helps, it was really nice to hear someone else describe similar feelings, which I think I've never heard before. [00:28:07]

So when I feel detached or disconnected, it's kind of like I'm wondering what all this, what are these experiences and how do I relate to them, and how are, and why, and like, what, why can't I be fully in them. And why does it feel so bad? [00:28:58]

And it's kind of like a detached retina, where, and this is Jeremy's wording, but I really like it, Yeah this lens, which is like your perspective on the world, and you'll feel the corners of your soul peeling off from your perspective. Like your soul is kind of lifting away from your rooted perspective, or grounded perspective. (pause) [00:30:02]

And different people use different things to adhere their soul back to the perspective, like prayer, faith, drugs, humor, whatever. I have no, I don't know what I use and when I feel this way, it doesn't feel like anything could act as a glue, beyond the simple acceptance of, that's the closest it comes is oh, if I could really just accept what this feeling is. That seems like the closest to being a relief. But seeing loved ones being distracted, I don't know, playing music or (inaudible at 31:16), I feel like that would be helpful.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, I can't help it. My, there's someone in my family who's a retina specialist. And so you -

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay. No, I was just struck by that.

CLIENT: My grandfather's retina became detached, and he's nearly blind now. And I think detached retina has a lot of meaning to me. Well, you can ask them, I don't think this little analogy really holds up anatomically. [00:32:06]

THERAPIST: I mean how I understand is that the feelings of whatever bad feelings you're referring to that are difficult to feel, that presumably has something to do with separation, sadness, loneliness. Something that's decimating. That's the sort of, the grounded perspective would be to be in touch with that. [00:33:02]

CLIENT: I think the grounded perspective would be to feel, to not feel that way.

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: But I think that's kind of a deluded sense of things. I think moving forward, the grounded perspective would be to be in touch with that. But I think what's so painful is all these parts used to be glued down and what, where are they going? What's happened to them? It's almost like the contrast is so great for me.

THERAPIST: You mean when those feelings hit, and you sort of come unglued.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you no longer see clearly.

CLIENT: I'm so used to being glued, or adhered. And for, and it was useful for me to talk to Jeremy because I don't think he's used to being glued, and so I asked, well, why haven't we talked, why are we talking about this now, so late in well, it's not late because we're still pretty young, but [00:34:24]

THERAPIST: Right, you -

CLIENT: Why has it taken us so long to have this discussion? Where were you? Why weren't you describing these feelings if you had them? And he said that he has them, and he mostly has them in the context of prolonged anxiety and trauma around school, and his sense of self worth, and this and that, and he said I think I probably have described them, but I don't know, people describe them all the time. Don't you read and know about people talking about being jaded? Or the word ugly? [00:35:08]

And my honest reaction to that was like, no, I don't deal with people like that. They kind of bum me out, and I don't identify with the word jaded at all. I think when I'm feeling glued, I'm the least from jaded that I can be, but then what about this unglued part, and maybe I'm not the least from jaded that I can be, so maybe I'm -

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: I don't know how to say anymore.

THERAPIST: [Is it hard to go back?] (ph)

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. [00:36:03]

THERAPIST: I think it's probably tough to talk closely about being unglued.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't, I think you're right about how that part gets siphoned off when I am attached, or feeling attached. (pause) Also, when I'm feeling attached, okay, recently, I had tried to change my mood and try to get myself to be unglued, and I can't do it. I don't think I'm really that interested in becoming unglued, so I don't know if it will work. But I think when I'm attached, I'm really attached, and really carefree, and confident, and feeling momentum, and positive, and positivity, and [00:37:09]

THERAPIST: This is reminding me a bit of your dad. When you mentioned the dreams about his brother desperately reaching for his help, I mean, certainly one thing you're and it's obviously it's like some kind of a historical reference to that, quite literal. But also, I imagined in terms of the more upset, grief-stricken, disturbed parts of himself reaching out to the rest of him at night, and similarly being quite distant. [00:38:04]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And voiceless often during the day. And I don't think it's exactly the same as that, well, I don't really think it's the same as that for you, but there's some things I think a little like that. I mean, when you're talking about being glued and unglued, I mean clearly, pieces and parts of you are talking a bit more.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But something about the difficulty of their talking in the ways that feel hard to be in touch. With some of that being related. [00:39:01]

CLIENT: What was the last part? It's hard to be in touch?

THERAPIST: I know it's not the same as with your dad -

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: It's maybe in that ballpark.

CLIENT: My mom said that if she were to ask my dad, are you suffering, he would be like, eh, no. I think he's suffering a lot. But I don't wish for him anything more than what he has chosen for himself. I don't. I think it's, part of me is comforted by the fact that someone can experience so much joy in the face of so much suffering. [00:40:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah. We have about five minutes. (pause) Is it also disillusioning that someone can experience so much suffering, and that they show so much joy?

CLIENT: What do you mean by disillusioned? [00:41:03]

THERAPIST: Like in my mind, sort of thing, that would make one feel, it would make me feel jaded.

CLIENT: Yeah. Also, I'm not, part of, I want to say, or part of me wants to say that's impossible. Or I, I can't really piece together how I would do that. They seem mutually exclusive to me in the way that I have experienced the world that I know that that can't be true.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm, but it doesn't feel true, the other way around.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: That somebody can be suffering a lot and also feel joyful. [00:42:04]

CLIENT: That doesn't seem true.

THERAPIST: I gather it does seem true that way, but -

CLIENT: It does seem true.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I don't, I have no idea what that would be like. And I don't know if I believe them, all those people who say, I don't know. I guess I would believe them. [00:43:00]

I would like to know what that feels like. Maybe I'm already feeling it. (pause) Do you know what joy feels like? (pause)

THERAPIST: Do you mean to feel very much affected by both? [00:44:11]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sometimes I think so. (pause) So sometimes, to react. [00:45:00] (pause)

END TRANSCRIPT

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Abstract / Summary: Client shares a conversation she had wither her mother, talks about her father and traumas endured by her extended family.
Field of Interest: Counseling & Therapy
Publisher: Alexander Street Press
Content Type: Session transcript
Format: Text
Page Count: 1
Page Range: 1-1
Publication Year: 2013
Publisher: Alexander Street
Place Published / Released: Alexandria, VA
Subject: Counseling & Therapy; Psychology & Counseling; Health Sciences; Theoretical Approaches to Counseling; Family and relationships; Teoria do Aconselhamento; Teorías del Asesoramiento; Death of relative; Emotional trauma; Extended family; Parent-child relationships; Psychoanalytic Psychology; Psychotherapy
Clinician: Anonymous
Keywords and Translated Subjects: Teoria do Aconselhamento; Teorías del Asesoramiento
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