TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: This has been a busy day of appointments for you: professor, dentist and therapist.

CLIENT: (chuckles) I'm already crying, see? (chuckles) No, it's been funny because one of my eyes has been crying and I told him "I'm not that sad." (chuckles) Hello. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: It's been kind of a busy week, actually. My friend visited me from San Diego, which was nice. She was here the whole weekend from Friday and left this morning. It was just kind of a long time to spend with someone. (chuckles) But she's nice. And there was one point that I thought of you actually because we were in I don't know, we were doing tourist things, I think it was some cemetery downtown. She said something I like saw like a Anderson which is the name of the guy that or whatever.

[00:01:00]

So I was like "Oh, look, it's so-and-so. Oh, awful." I made some comment. And she was like "You shouldn't be angry with him" and I was like "What?" (chuckles) It was like screeching tire marks, like "Whoa." (chuckles) And I was like "Excuse me?" (chuckles) And then I kind of I wasn't like overtly angry but I was firm, like really firm, and was like "Hey, you don't know anything about what happened between me and him" because I've never really told her stuff. And I don't think I forget exactly what I said, but it was something like "That's not for you to say." Something like really firm or -

THERAPIST: Assertive.

CLIENT: potentially a little bit rude. (chuckles) And I don't know why, it just like came out. Because I was angry but I wasn't like explosively angry, and I knew that I would've otherwise been like angry with her for days.

[00:02:06]

And it was funny because right after I told her, I was like "Hey, you don't that's not right of me to say" or something. I picked right back up where we left off and it was like "Oh my God, look at that cool thing" and totally meant it. It wasn't like a distraction strategy or whatever. So that was really interesting.

THERAPIST: How did she respond?

CLIENT: I think she may have thought about it a little longer than me. (chuckles) I felt kind of bad about it, but I didn't feel bad because of the circumstances. She really doesn't really know what happened between us, and it's not right of her to say you should or shouldn't feel a particular way. Even though I do it all the time. (chuckles) But I don't know. It just felt really wrong.

THERAPIST: To be told what you are allowed to feel.

CLIENT: Right, yeah. Especially regarding that. And I mean, the thing was I was kind of kidding. Like it was like a joke. I was like "Oh so-and-so," like whatever, and I think she took it seriously.

[00:03:06]

And I was like "Whoa", even if it was serious. "Not cool" kind of thing. And so that was I don't know. That was really nice too. I mean, it wasn't really nice but like it was -

THERAPIST: It felt good to be able to assert yourself.

CLIENT: I think it felt good not to hold a grudge for the next three days. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's probably a big relief.

CLIENT: Yeah, definitely. Or not to have to go back and be like "Hey, remember that one thing you said? That really bothered me." (chuckles) You know, like because that's usually how it goes. Like if something bugs me, I have to but this was so immediate, I was like "Whoa, wrong." So that was nice. I wish I could do that more often, like recognize because it's so much easier to say "Hey, what you just said, that's not cool" than to be like "Hey, remember that thing you said five weeks ago? It really bothers me." (chuckles) So I guess that was interesting too. (clears throat) Sorry. (chuckles)

[00:04:12]

THERAPIST: That's okay.

CLIENT: (pause) So, I don't know. That happened and it seemed kind of really important for me. And then the other thing that happened was actually this morning. So my mom and I never text, right? Like we never text. Until like two or three weeks ago we started texting. And it's funny because I'm trying to teach her how to text. I'm like "Mom, you don't have to say goodbye after you text. Like you just stop texting." (chuckles) And she's like "bye." (chuckles) And now my brother started saying "bye". (chuckles)

THERAPIST: To copy your mom.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. (chuckles) But anyway, I texted her. I was like "Hey, going to the professor." She was like "Oh, you didn't feel" she called me back and she said "Oh, you're not feeling well. That sucks" or whatever. We started talking. I don't know how we got on the topic oh, my brother is at the Island. I don't know if you've heard of Watson Island in New Mexico.

[00:05:08]

THERAPIST: I have.

CLIENT: Spring break, right? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It's where you go if you don't go to Austin.

CLIENT: Right, exactly. So my brother is there for his spring break. It's kind of a big deal it's like about 15 minutes away from where I grew up.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It's kind of a big deal. It's where like you go when you're a little bit more grown up, and people sometimes go there to drink and do stuff, whatever. And I never got to go when I was younger. I said something along the lines of "Oh, that's funny" because we were kind of talking about my dad too. I don't exactly remember the conversation. But I was like "Oh, that was pretty sexist of him." Of him, like I was blaming him, not my mom.

And my mom and then I said something like "What do you think?" And she was like "I can't believe that like" she got really flustered and angry and was like "I can't believe you're bringing this up. You've already said it. Stop saying it. What do you want me to say?" I was like "Whoa." Because I was totally on like happy conversation time, and she went straight to angry mom time.

[00:06:10]

I was like "Whoa." (chuckles) So I actually hung up on her because I was like so angry. I was like "Whoa, dude. I'm like trying to have a real conversation with you and you got all mad." So I texted her back, which I've never done before. (chuckles) And we had like this really weird exchange of like things we've never said to each other before. I actually I have it and I kind of wanted to read it to you in translation. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Because it's just so weird. But we said a lot of really important things. And I said like she said, I said it a lot of times on the phone or whatever. And I said "I only said it once or twice. I don't know why you got so mad. I would like for you to be able to listen to me without getting mad, especially when it has to do with something that has affected me so much. Like the discriminatory way in which dad treated me because of my gender." It sounds much less awkward in French. (chuckles)

[00:07:18]

THERAPIST: And remember, if there are things that don't translate that you need to say in French, it's okay for you to say them.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, I think they do. It's awkward phrasing. And my mom said "Look [inaudible at 00:07:30]," which is me. "For the time in which it was for" the time that we lived in or whatever "it is normal that we got worried and more because" my older brother "was so calm and you were a complete revolution." (chuckles) "It's not about sexism, and it seems almost like a lie that you're so old now and you're still coming up with this." And she said "You always tried to fight for your independence" or liberty or whatever you want to call it "and when that's everything that you see, then you can't do anything but worry." Like as a mom, she means. And she says something -

[00:08:25]

THERAPIST: Because you were trying so hard to get away.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She was really it made her even more nervous -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: about what you might do if you got away.

CLIENT: Right. I think that's what I guess, I don't know. (chuckles) That sounds like something she'd agree with. I just never and she says like "You automatically assume that because I disagree with you that I'm mad, and notice who hung up on who." (chuckles) I said like, okay. And so I said "I'm not saying I wasn't difficult, but that I wanted to be independent should've been something good, not something for you to worry about. And for as hard as I was" to raise or whatever "I still think that it was that I was a girl made a difference, and that's just not fair."

[00:09:22]

And I said "And if I continue to think about these things at this age, it's because it affected me a lot and as a woman, it continues to affect me and because and that's why it's so important to me to be independent and autonomous because I never felt like I had that opportunity as a kid. And I thought it was more dad, but I didn't know that you were also in agreement, and I don't care that you" (pause) I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: That's okay.

CLIENT: "And I don't care if you disagree, but I do care that you listen to me respectfully and that you don't get flustered and angry when I tell you something that you think is ridiculous." (sniffling) Sorry. That's gross. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You have a cold.

[00:10:16]

CLIENT: I'm sorry. It's gross. (chuckles) And she says "It's not ridiculous. It's just out of place. And like you said, you were a child and the function of the parents is to avoid danger when they still need to mature. Also, Jean [ph] " my little brother "didn't go alone, [one of the other moms] is with him." (chuckles) I was like okay, are we still talking about that?

"Well, I disagree that my opinion is out of place and at the very least, it was my experience" I'm sorry. "And at the very least, if that was my experience, I would like for you to recognize that that's how I felt and that because that's how I felt, that's a valuable point of view. And I like that my brother has more opportunities than I had, but I would like that at the very least you would recognize" or "it were recognized" passive (chuckles) "that I didn't have them, and that you know that I feel that that's not fair." And she replied "Okay." (chuckles) That's never a conversation that we would've ever had in real life. (chuckles)

[00:11:25]

THERAPIST: What do you think made it easier to have it over text than to have it out loud?

CLIENT: I don't know. It was almost like removing the emotion because part of why I think I don't like to talk to her in person or whatever is because if I start crying, my mom starts crying and then we start crying and she makes it becomes this bigger deal than it has to be. Because she's like because to her, crying means a lot, I think.

THERAPIST: Did you cry as you were texting?

CLIENT: I did, yeah. (chuckles) But it was fine. It was like I could do it and it was okay.

THERAPIST: Without feeling like it was impacting her in the same way.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It was just your -

CLIENT: So it was kind of a way of removing it. But it was still like a really effective I don't know. (chuckles) Like I've never said any of that to her before. And it kind of makes -

THERAPIST: It gave you an outlet to be able to voice things that you've held for so long.

CLIENT: Right, right. (chuckles) It's weird that we did it via text, right, because it's like (chuckles) text message [break up].

[00:12:27]

But I don't know. It was really nice to be able to say that stuff. And I mean, I still feel kind of crappy that she doesn't think that she I don't know that they treated me differently because I was a girl. Because I feel that so strongly.

THERAPIST: Right. It's certainly the lens through which you saw the rules being set.

CLIENT: Absolutely. But it kind of makes me feel better that at least I know that she knows.

THERAPIST: Well, it's interesting. For her, she viewed it as not so much that you were a girl but that you were very different from your brother.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You were seeing one of the major differences between you and your brother was that he was a boy and you were a girl.

CLIENT: Right. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: But it's interesting that maybe that's it's not that one of you is right and one of you is wrong, but that you just viewed it through a very different lens. She saw calm versus a complete 180 from that.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And you're seeing it "boy, all this privilege; girl, not."

[00:13:24]

CLIENT: Right. And that's totally fine. Like I don't need her to agree with me on that, but I do need her to hear me.

THERAPIST: [You needed her to hear you.]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That you certainly felt like you were being treated in a way because of your gender.

CLIENT: Right, right. I mean, partially it's because I do think that. Like if my older brother had tried to assert his independence at my age -

THERAPIST: It may have been seen as -

CLIENT: Boys being boys, or whatever. But, you know, I don't care that my little brother has more opportunities than I do. Like that would be so evil of me. (chuckles) Like I want him to have like stuff that I couldn't have.

THERAPIST: But you want her to recognize that he has things that you didn't have.

CLIENT: Right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. And so -

THERAPIST: And I think you said it very well in saying that "You don't need to necessarily agree with me, but I need you to listen to me in a respectful way."

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: "And treat my feelings as valid because they're my feelings."

[00:14:22]

CLIENT: Right. And I think it's kind of a big deal too because like when my mom started I think in the first reply text or whatever she said something like "at these heights", meaning like "you're so old and you're saying this."

THERAPIST: She wants you to get over it already.

CLIENT: Right, exactly. And I think part of because I do that all of the time. I'm like, I'm so old. I feel like a six year old talking about stuff that happened in elementary school.

THERAPIST: But if it's never been acknowledged it's not that having it acknowledged is important, and you keep bringing it up because you feel like you haven't been heard.

CLIENT: Right, yeah. But I think that has always been the way that feelings have been treated in my house. Like once a certain amount of time elapses, then it's like totally uncool and be like "Hey, what was that about?" I think that part of what this meant to me was that I could be like "Hey, you can't just say that what I feel doesn't matter because it happened so long ago. Like here's how it makes me feel today."

[00:15:26]

(chuckles) Which, I don't know, seems really important to be able to do that, especially because that's how the whole family feels and it's not how I feel. I can't just get over stuff because it was, I don't know, 10 years ago. (chuckles) It sounds ridiculous, I guess.

THERAPIST: What do you think stops you from being able to let it go? Rather than judge.

CLIENT: I think it was yeah, I mean, I think part of it is because I never felt like she knew. I never I don't know. It was lonely. Like I was carrying this alone, you know. (crying) And I was so surprised too because I think that my mom was treated different for being a woman, differently for being a woman. I would think it kind of hurt my feelings. It was like "But you're a woman too and like you should feel these things, or at least recognize that maybe this is the way that I" but I think that's something where generational differences might actually play in.

[00:16:27]

Because I didn't feel like it was just me. I felt like she experienced it too, which made it even more lonely, right? (chuckles) But I don't know. I mean, I don't think I'm not necessarily letting go. I do feel like it's in the past. (pause) But I'd never told her before, I guess. I don't know.

THERAPIST: So you were maybe not carrying the incident, but carrying the fact that she never got it.

CLIENT: Right. And it definitely shapes the way that I see stuff now. Like the time that my dad kind of drove me around and thought I was gay and yelled obscenities at me for hours. Like that means that I have a really strong ally for like you know, I don't know. Like it's really important to me. And so I don't know.

[00:17:19]

Like maybe in the same way, part of like the whole Julia thing, why it bothered me so much is because I'm like like I fought against this my whole life, and like having it I guess in my life now is really bothersome because I'm trying to move away, and I don't need to be in a relationship or whatever, and I think that's okay. I think that if I did need to be in a relationship, it would be a problem. And seeing that so close to me I think is a little hard. (pause) Yeah. I did ask Angela [ph], by the way homework. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Oh yeah? How did that go?

CLIENT: I didn't quite know how to phrase it, so I was like "Please don't be offended at the way I'm asking the question, but I have no idea how else to ask it. I totally mean it as a real question." (chuckles) And I asked her, I was like, "How can you still be friends with Julia because I know that all this stuff bugs you about her" and like whatever.

[00:18:20]

And we kind of talked about it, and it was actually a really nice conversation. She said that she kind of views us as on a spectrum and she's like in the middle. And she actually kind of told me that she feels like sometimes like she wishes that she could speak up about stuff. Like Julia told Angela [ph] that it was awkward to talk to me at one point remember the kitchen conversation we had the other day?

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: She told Angela [ph] that she thought that was awkward and I was like "Yeah, that was awkward, okay." But Angela [ph] knew why it was awkward but she didn't want to say anything. She was like "okay" and was really vague and changed the topic. She was like "I wish I could've said something." So she says that she kind of wishes she could say more, but she can't because of the way that she grew up or whatever. But that she definitely sees us like on a spectrum and that she's kind of in the middle but closer to me, and so we relate a lot more than she does to Julia, but like I guess she like her biggest thing is like to keep the peace.

[00:19:27]

So she doesn't want to fight with anyone and I'm like "Okay, that makes total sense. Like I understand." (chuckles) And you were right. After I asked her and we talked about it, like it was totally like the whole feeling of resentment that I had for her hanging out with Julia or whatever, it didn't totally go away but it definitely eased up a lot. I was like okay, well, because I think part of it was like maybe she likes you because she likes her more than me. What if it means that she hates me and isn't telling me and stuff.

THERAPIST: You didn't understand it so you started making assumptions.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Without giving her a chance to explain sort of her process.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And that you didn't have to make guesses anymore.

CLIENT: Exactly. And I don't know. I think we got closer after that, like it was really nice.

THERAPIST: Wow. You've taken a lot of risks these past couple of weeks.

[00:20:18]

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, I guess. It's been a little hard. (chuckles) But that actually felt really nice. That was easy. (chuckles) (pause) And so, yeah, I don't know. I think that's it's weird though because I've been thinking back to our previous sessions, and I remember I used to be like oh God it was like this whole situation, right? Like in my head, my whole life was a disaster and I was like okay, well, I've got to start picking apart at pieces. I was like okay, like today I'm going to talk about this particular thing. And sometimes it would branch out into other stuff, but usually it would stay around the same kind of theme. And I feel like it's now just sort of like general it's all like -

THERAPIST: Doesn't feel as discrete pieces anymore.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think I've noticed that a lot this week too. Like where it's kind of all connected. I mean, I guess it was always connected (chuckles) but it was more of a -

[00:21:20]

THERAPIST: But I think the intensity of each independent incident made it hard to see what was underlying because I remember at one point you saying "Can you help me kind of be consistent from one session to the next?" because I think you felt like you were all over the place.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: One day you would talk about this thing, one day you would talk about this thing.

CLIENT: Yeah, definitely.

THERAPIST: And you needed some help to see where the connections were.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And it seems to me like now, I think you understand the process underneath each of the incidents that occur, or the different relationships, and seeing a similarity, and how do you get to see crisis points in relationships where you can either cut off from somebody or stall a relationship or confront the issue, whatever the issue is, and sometimes that brings you closer.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: So I think you're starting to see that the thing that gets you to these different crisis points is maybe a similar pattern.

CLIENT: Sure, yeah. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It doesn't feel so disconnected anymore.

[00:22:22]

CLIENT: Right, yeah. (pause) But that also seems like a big deal, I think, because like in my head just thinking about it, it seemed like this labyrinth of like, I have no idea what I'm doing. (chuckles). At least now, I may not like a lot of things I guess, but at least I think I kind of get it a little bit more.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (chuckles) So I don't know. It's been it's been new as well. And I did hear back from some more post-bacs. So I got rejected from UPenn, which was my top choice. Except apparently they rejected me like two months ago, and I never heard back from them. I've been checking my spam and my trash and everything obsessively, and I never found the e-mail. But I was rejected.

[00:23:17]

And then Vanderbilt put me on a hold. I was like "Is that a waiting list?" and they were like "no." I was like "So what is it?" (chuckles) They said that it was like "We couldn't make a decision on you so we're going to like" it was basically like a pause. Like they're going to consider me at every meeting until they make a decision, which is kind of awkward.

THERAPIST: And you don't get a chance to like influence their decision?

CLIENT: So I asked, I said "Can I send in something? Anything?" They were like "Well, yeah, I mean, some people send in letters of continued interest," so I did that. And then I was like "Okay, and I'll send you another letter of recommendation," so I did. Because I know someone who writes in like 20 minutes and they're awesome, so I asked him. So hopefully that will push them over the edge.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:24:19]

CLIENT: But it's still been like really tough like doing the whole up-in-the-air situation.

THERAPIST: So are you waiting to hear back from anyone else still?

CLIENT: Just Vanderbilt.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I mentioned in the letter that they were my top choice out of all of the choices that I have. (laughter) But they're not really. They're kind of my only choice. I mean, it would be cool to be at Vanderbilt.

THERAPIST: That's okay. They don't need to know that.

CLIENT: Right. (chuckles) But then I started before I heard all this, I just assumed I was rejected, and I was like I don't know if I should stay or if I should move to San Diego. (chuckles) San Diego specifically because they have like the UC San Diego is actually I was deciding between Yale and the UC San Diego, which actually was like the toughest choice of my life. I ended up just like flipping a coin because I had no idea. So I've always kind of wanted to be there.

[00:25:17]

The two professors that I have always wanted to work with are there, and I could do my post-bac there if I wanted to or whatever. But I hate San Diego. So that was like the big con or whatever. So I've been thinking about that too, but it's still so up in the air.

THERAPIST: You can't really make a decision until you hear back from Vanderbilt.

CLIENT: Right now, yeah, now that that happened after. Because I needed more options and more complications, right? So I don't know. I don't know if I told you that my landlord is deciding not to renew our lease.

THERAPIST: I think you mentioned that last time.

CLIENT: Yeah. And so actually Tim moved out already which was like, that's awful. So anyway, there's all this stuff going on -

THERAPIST: When is that when is the lease up?

CLIENT: End of June. Yeah, so July 1st. We would have to be out by July 1st. I had no idea that most leases started in September, but apparently that's the case. And so I still feel like I'm holding on a rollercoaster. (chuckles)

[00:26:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's really hard. Just everything is so unsettled. You don't know where you're going or where you are even really.

CLIENT: Right. And then yeah. And people are like "Well, do you want to be a professor?" and I was like "Yeah, I'm pretty sure I want to be a professor" and they're like this is Charles and Charles is like "Well, that doesn't sound so sure" and I'm like "Well, I'm pretty sure. That sounds sure to me." (chuckles) I don't know.

THERAPIST: Why do you have to put the "pretty"?

CLIENT: Well, because I don't think it's necessarily wise to be that sure about anything, you know? I think like I don't think that those people that say like "Oh, if you could do anything else, do it. Never be a professor if you can think of being anything else." Like that just sounds like crap to me because you should be able to do other things, because if you can't then you're not going to be able to relate to people.

[00:27:24]

I don't know. It just sounds like a cop-out to me. It sounds like a way of weeding people out as opposed to like encouraging people and I don't know.

THERAPIST: Who has said that to you?

CLIENT: Quite a lot of people, actually. I don't know. I think I like bring it out because of my background which I feel a little insecure about since being rejected to like most of the places. (chuckles) They're like "Well, it sounds like you want to do other stuff" and I'm like "Why?" "Because you did all this religion stuff" and I'm like "That makes no sense." (chuckles) And so -

THERAPIST: And for you, they're related. I remember talking about -

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: how you got to where you are.

CLIENT: Right. And I still think they're related. I don't know that that's a very popular opinion but (chuckles) I don't know.

THERAPIST: For you, they are related.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Mysticism and religion and healing have been intertwined for centuries.

[00:28:21]

CLIENT: Right. (chuckles) For all of the centuries except for the last two. (chuckles) Okay. So, yeah, that's been kind of coming up too since all this I was talking to Charles and I was like "What do I do? (chuckles) Like what would you do?"

THERAPIST: Ah. And there's where to invite people to tell you that you're not sure enough.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess. Yeah, maybe. But I meant what would I do like I gave them the options. I was like "Would you stay at Yale and do your post-bac here or would you go to San Diego and do it there?" This was obviously before the Vanderbilt thing. And he and I think like it's cool because sometimes I like to ask what people would do because like if he says "Stay at New Haven" and I'm like "Oh God, that sounds awful" then I'm like oh, that's what I want, you know?

THERAPIST: Sort of noticing your response to what their choice would be.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I've kind of been having a hard time thinking about, you know, assuming I don't get into Vanderbilt, like what should I do?

[00:29:22]

Because I kind of see the importance because I didn't have a Plan B before and I was like I don't know what to do. (chuckles) And I think it's important for me now to like have a Plan B. And I asked him, he and Angela [ph] both. Both of them said the same thing. They were like "Oh, I would go to San Diego" and I was like, huh. And I don't really have -

THERAPIST: And how did that sit with you?

CLIENT: I don't know. Like I think it was weird because Susan [ph] came and we did tourist things, and it was all these beautiful things that I love about Providence. You know, I don't know, there's just so much I would miss from Providence. I really would. I guess Cranston, but like the area. I don't really like San Diego that much as a city.

THERAPIST: Have you lived there?

CLIENT: I've visited like a bunch of times, like maybe five or six times and I just like I don't know. There's something about it. Like I feel really unsafe because of like the way the architecture is. There's so many corners I don't know what it is. (chuckles) I'm like, I don't know, I feel like I'm getting mugged 24/7.

[00:30:27]

I think it's the corners, which is freaky, right? Like that's weird that that would bother me so much. I mean, we have corners here. (chuckles) I don't know what it is.

THERAPIST: I wonder if part of it is just familiarity.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: You've lived here, so it feels -

CLIENT: But this was -

THERAPIST: But Providence is also a small city.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It has a different feeling.

CLIENT: San Diego is like enormous, like so big.

THERAPIST: You're also really in New Haven.

CLIENT: I know -

THERAPIST: But the trail is in Providence.

CLIENT: Yes it is. Well part of it is -

THERAPIST: But once you move to the other side of the country -

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: they don't distinguish between New Haven, Cranston, Providence. It's all just Providence.

CLIENT: Right, right, right. Yes. And I was talking to my mom earlier and she just says Providence. "Oh, she lives in Providence."

THERAPIST: Everyone does but people from here.

CLIENT: Yes. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Who make a huge distinction between where the river is.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. No, my friend one time I said "I'm from Providence" to somebody and she's like "No, you're not. You're from Cranston" and I was like "Okay." (laughter) "I'm from Cranston. We make fluff [ph]." (laughter)

[00:31:25]

THERAPIST: (laughter) We're making the tape really hard to transcribe. (laughter)

CLIENT: Oh yes. (laughter) F-L-U-F. (laughter) No, so, but anyway, I've been trying to decide. I think part of one of the things that has been playing a factor is like I don't want to feel like I'm running away from all these things, and maybe it's time to like stay and figure out and try and like -

THERAPIST: What would you be running away from?

CLIENT: I don't know. Like this whole being lonely and not having friends and trying to start over. I mean, I have to move anyway. Maybe that's enough of a start-over, I don't know.

THERAPIST: What would make it different to establish a friend-group there versus here?

CLIENT: You mean in San Diego?

THERAPIST: Mmm-hmm. Or in Baltimore.

CLIENT: Yeah, anywhere else. (chuckles) I don't know. I think something I know that I definitely want is like the newness of like like remember I was telling you the last time like that feeling of like I can be whoever I want. I can do whatever I want.

[00:32:32]

THERAPIST: And you need a new location for that?

CLIENT: I think that's kind of what I'm trying to figure out. I don't know. I mean, part of it is the program. Like I don't necessarily think that the extension school and I mesh very well. But I think this is a more important consideration. I think it's playing a bigger role like whether or not I want to start over.

THERAPIST: Well, who would you want to be, different from who you feel like you are now?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. (chuckles) That's a hard question. (pause) I think somebody not so insecure, you know? And I know that I wouldn't change inside but I think like the way that people perceive me. That would be a whole new start because they are whole new people. (pause)

[00:33:26]

And it wouldn't be so messy because I don't know anyone in San Diego, and there's not anyone there to be like "Oh my God, remember that one time in college when" you know, whatever. (pause) Yeah, I don't know. That seems like really cool, but it also seems like very different, I think, from me now. I really like the people that are here. I mean, I have like a handful of friends but they are really, really good friends, even though they're all moving. (chuckles) Which might be part of it, actually. So I don't know.

THERAPIST: Sometimes it's hard to be in the same place without some of the same things in place, whether they be friendships or routines, home.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, routines like job, you know? (chuckles) (pause) Yeah. So then there's like all this going on.

[00:34:25]

And then one of the things I considered was I have a standing invitation to teach at my old high school. To teach. And I was like well, I guess I could do that for a year. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: The look on your face as you say that shows me that that's not something you really want to do.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, yeah, I guess it's not. I mean, I really hated high school was the worst four years of my life. I hated it, and I don't think I would like to go back there. I mean, I guess it would be different to go back as an adult. I mean, I still know like half the teachers there. I'll bet I'd still be treated like a kid which, I mean, makes sense since they taught me. I don't know. And it's also like I would live at home which I think I can take for like a couple weeks at a time, but not long enough for that. I don't know. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think paying attention to your gut responses and just seeing your automatic facial expression that came on your face as you thought about taking that option.

[00:35:26]

It's nice to have a standing offer. They obviously think more highly of you than you felt of your experience in high school.

CLIENT: Yes. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: But it's clear that that would not feel like a welcome opportunity really for you.

CLIENT: Yeah. So maybe that one wasn't so up there. But I really do feel conflicted about whether or not I should stay, if like Plan B or whatever. I just don't know. And I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: That's okay.

CLIENT: I just need to add that part of the reason I would want to stay is because there's this religious community that's forming and we meet I think it's tomorrow, actually that has been like so meaningful to me over the last couple of weeks. I've only gone twice because they have it every other week, but it's been like such a great thing. I'm going to be singing whenever I'm not sick, and it's really like intimate.

THERAPIST: How did this group get formed?

[00:36:22]

CLIENT: Somebody from school, actually, who was studying to get a masters. A religious group. And so he started this like it's kind of like a young adult group. But it's like so intimate and really like I don't know. Like really genuine and very open. People open up and it's such a great community, especially because it's so small. It's not like a big congregation. I don't know. That seems like something really special that I really don't want to let go of.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like a nice forum for you to establish -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: connections and really express this side of yourself that you aren't able to sometimes.

CLIENT: Right, yeah. And especially with all this stuff, all this stuff in flux and motion or whatever. Like I also have [these great] people in my spiritual life and I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. (chuckles) So this is like a really great way of -

[00:37:29]

THERAPIST: Yeah, having a place to explore that.

CLIENT: Yeah, or like be consistent. At the very least, have some sort of consistency which is I think what I want. (pause) So that would be something difficult to leave as well.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Then again, there is a congregation at the University of San Diego. (chuckles) So I don't know. I just don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, it seems like you have to keep all this in mind but wait also to hear from Vanderbilt first.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And make whatever decisions need to be made at the time that they need to be made.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's good to have Plan B in place because you felt pretty lost without a Plan B, but you can't enact or decide upon it until -

CLIENT: I guess, yeah.

THERAPIST: until you're at that step. You're jumping ahead a little bit.

CLIENT: Okay.

[00:38:25]

THERAPIST: So it sounds like really your Plan B is decide whether or not you'd want to say in the area and use the extension school, or go to San Diego and use the extension school there and create a new space for yourself. But you don't have to pick that yet. The Plan B is picking.

CLIENT: Okay. (chuckles) I think the only reason I was so afraid of that was because I did that for grad school and it was like oh, I'll just pick later, whenever I found out where I got in and whatever financial aid I get with it. And it was literally three months of daily "What do I do?" And I guess I'm a little nervous of that so -

THERAPIST: Well, because you were trying to decide every day. The difference is not deciding.

CLIENT: (chuckles) I guess, yeah. Yeah. (pause) So, yeah. I guess that's (chuckles) it in a nutshell. (pause)

[00:39:35]

THERAPIST: It's a lot to sit and process and hold onto every day.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you've actually been doing a really good job of taking things in as they come and addressing them sooner than you used to.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm.

THERAPIST: There were a couple of big decision points where you addressed something that someone said or how they made you feel and you did, right away. So the decisions that could be made in the moment, you did, and the decisions that you can't make in the moment, you make when you can.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When it comes to that.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. (pause) I guess yeah. (chuckles) (pause)

[00:40:26]

The other thing that I wanted to tell you I don't know if I did or not but I was going skiing this whole winter. Like a couple of times over the winter. In terms of like body image or whatever, it was really tough to get like the men's boots because my feet are gigantic or whatever. But I think it was also really nice to do something that I really, really enjoyed even though I like kept falling. (chuckles) Like the first time I did it, I spent more than half the time on the floor.

THERAPIST: I hear that's normal.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. But it's still, I don't know, it was really fun, and I think I actually went to buy a jacket or something, like outside wear or whatever, because I feel like I mean, you can obviously only do skiing in the winter but, I don't know, maybe there's other stuff I can do in the summer that would be fun.

[00:41:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like using your body -

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: and feeling what it can do and teaching it to do new things is such a nice way to empower yourself, rather than judging your body for what it looks like or the shape that it has.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Figuring out the things it can do is pretty powerful.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And pretty brave.

CLIENT: (chuckles) I think that part of it was like, I don't want to buy those gigantic boots.

THERAPIST: But they were fun to put yourself in.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm glad you set aside the discomfort of not having your feet be the size you want them to be -

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: and allowing yourself to do something with them that was actually pretty cool.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So if you can think yeah, it's going to get a lot harder to ski, although I did see flurries today.

CLIENT: Oh really? (chuckles)

[00:42:24]

THERAPIST: Yes. But finding something else to experiment with and letting yourself feel what your body can do is an amazing way to start to appreciate it and see it in a new way.

CLIENT: Mmm-hmm. Yeah. It's been interesting, especially because I like, you know, I had to buy snow pants or whatever and that was really crappy.

THERAPIST: A tough hurdle.

CLIENT: (chuckles) But yeah, I don't know. It was really fun, so maybe I'll do it again. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I'm glad that you pushed yourself through the uncomfortable parts to get to the good stuff.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah.

THERAPIST: We should probably wrap up there. I know we had tentatively planned for a couple weeks from now. Are we still tentatively on for that?

CLIENT: I think I'm not going to go to New Mexico because (chuckles) I have to hear back from Vanderbilt whether or not -

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: you know. So I think we are still on.

THERAPIST: So I'm just double-checking when that was.

[00:43:28]

CLIENT: I think it was 16th.

THERAPIST: I think you're right. (pause) I have, yeah, the 16th at the same time, 4:20.

CLIENT: Oh my God, I can't believe I remembered that. Yes.

THERAPIST: Good job.

CLIENT: (chuckles) I mean without my calendar. (pause) Oh my God.

THERAPIST: [Do you have your check?]

CLIENT: I forgot it.

THERAPIST: That's okay.

CLIENT: Oh my gosh. I'm so sorry.

THERAPIST: That's okay. So you'll pay me next time for both.

CLIENT: Actually, would it be okay do you mind if I bring it by either later today or tomorrow?

THERAPIST: Yeah, you can just slide it under my door.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. Alright. I would just feel so bad. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: That's okay. It happens. Hardly anybody carries a checkbook these days. So yeah, whenever it's convenient.

END TRANSCRIPT