TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you. (pause) [00:01:02]

CLIENT: I felt quite better Monday after therapy. (chuckles) But then (sighs) (pause) yesterday I had to see well, I didn't have to, but I did Victor, so now I'm just totally in the dumps. (long pause) [00:02:35] I should just tell him that we shouldn't be in touch for a bit longer. Do you think I should send him that email?

THERAPIST: Do you think it would help you?

CLIENT: I think so. I don't know. (pause) It feels like being rejected all over again and it's not really. It's a distraction. I cannot work for several days and I'm in a very bad mood and feel really horrible. [00:03:28] I shouldn't give him so much power as Chris says, but once you build someone up it's hard to . . . I can't figure out what it is. Yeah, it's weird. It's not like he's this famous writer because then if he were that, I would totally feel very intimidated because that's my dream. That's my desire, goal or profession. (sighs) He's not like a great artist. He's not rich or any of those things. It's just what he projects, being really in control and strong. [00:04:26] It's completely a projection and I just feel silly and lost. I was telling him, "I'm going to be successful," and he was like, "What? What was that?" I don't know if my voice was actually that small or if he was just trying to take away that power from me. (chuckles) I feel like that sometimes. I know I have a soft voice, but when people say "what was that?" it makes me feel even smaller. (pause) It takes away the impact of what you're saying if you're asked to repeat. You get distracted and conscious. (sighs) [00:05:30] (pause)

I really just want to forget him and never think about him and never remember that I had feelings for him, but I actually consciously have done this in the past a lot, sit and think about the last year and be like, "Oh, I was so happy. That was so nice. It was so good." All those intensities of emotions. [00:06:34] That is probably the cause of why I'm feeling all this sadness right now; I'm building up that time to be something awesome or great. (pause) As I'm getting older I'm having all these hormonal changes that I just don't know how to deal with. (sniffles) (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You said hormonal changes?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: Like desiring, I guess, sex. (chuckles) I used to be a very kind of demure, suppressed kind of person. (chuckles) [00:07:41] I didn't really desire sex until recently. (laughs)

THERAPIST: You know the date and time?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it might have been in the evening, 6:00 or 7:00.

THERAPIST: And you're not sure if it was 6:00 or 7:00?

CLIENT: (laughs) You can joke, but I'm being honest here. I remember the time. (laughs) I remember the date. It was Octoberfest.

THERAPIST: What changed?

CLIENT: I don't know. It's just a surge of something and I'm like, "Okay, this is what they mean when they say 'being horny.'" (laughs) [00:08:36] Chris had been away for a month or maybe a month and a half. I was by myself and I was just like, "Hmm. What's happening here?"

THERAPIST: What did you feel?

CLIENT: You know, wanting to kiss someone. Wanting someone to be physical. I hadn't felt that way before. Maybe when I was in college with my first boyfriend, but that was a completely different thing because I had no idea what was happening. It was more like fear than anything else. It was enjoyable, but is it okay to talk about these things with you here or no? [00:09:33]

THERAPIST: Of course. What makes you doubt that that would be okay?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: I hope you feel free to talk about anything in here.

CLIENT: Okay. (chuckles) I feel very conscious talking about all of this, but thank you. (pause) My friend is so good, the woman that I've talked about.

THERAPIST: Did you get I sent you a referral.

CLIENT: No, I didn't get it.

THERAPIST: You didn't get it?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry. I thought I had sent it. If you want, I'll send it again. I thought I'd sent you the name of a referral for someone in Augusta. I don't know if Augusta would be okay or do you know if she . . ? [00:10:30]

CLIENT: I'll ask. I think she would take the subway.

THERAPIST: Is she in Providence?

CLIENT: I don't know what that place is called Monmouth/whatever. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Providence probably would be better.

CLIENT: She has a car.

THERAPIST: Okay. Well I know someone excellent in Augusta. I'll send it again.

CLIENT: Yeah, thank you. I can send you a reminder email. Maybe you got the email wrong or something.

THERAPIST: Maybe. That would be great if you could do that.

CLIENT: Yeah. She's so great and she's so liberated. I'm so amazed by that. I was like, "What do you do? I feel all these hormones and I don't know what to do. I feel completely horrible about them and ashamed. What did you do?" "I just had a string of one-night stands." (laughs) [00:11:26] And then she said, "You should be careful not to mistake love for just sex." I don't even do that. I was a shut-up little person and (sighs) that man really opened me up and I couldn't imagine doing those things with anyone else. I guess that's the way that I am, that I was personally raised. I wouldn't say raised because it's not like my parents sat me down and said any of this to me. It's just one of the things that I believed, but maybe now not so much. [00:12:25] I don't know. (pause)

The way she said it so simply, it's not like I haven't considered it or know about this pitfall, but it's just the way that she said it so simply it's just like wow. You can really separate your heart from your body. Then I'm just so confused and frustrated because I don't know if I want this. I don't know if I want to be a sexual being. I sense that it's such distraction and I should just cull those feelings. [00:13:26] They're not even feelings, they're actual physical things, right? I don't know. Is it a feeling or is it like . . ? What is desire/need? A feeling is not physical, right? What is it?

THERAPIST: I don't know. These are all words with different . . . I don't know what the formal definitions are.

CLIENT: I guess I'm just trying to make a distinction for myself.

THERAPIST: You're trying to define things. I understand.

CLIENT: To be useful for myself. A physical urge or need, like thirst, I think it's like that versus a feeling like, "Oh, I'm feeling sad," or "I'm feeling hungry," but that feeling of hunger could be nervousness or how I get with food sometimes when I am anxious. [00:14:30] I may not actually be hungry, but I feel hungry because I feel insecure. But then, again, that could be the same with sex. I don't know. As usual I'm confusing things. I'm not sure if I want to b a sexual being because I think it could be a distraction; plus I just feel ridiculous that I'm living with Chris. I would have to find my own place to be able to date and all that. (sniffles)

THERAPIST: Hopefully you don't not pursue your needs and desires because it's a hassle, if that makes sense. [00:15:21]

CLIENT: Yeah, I know, but it is a hassle.

THERAPIST: I'm not saying it's not a hassle, but hopefully that's not your only obstacle.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Do you not want to get what you want and need in life because it's a hassle?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: (laughs) It is such a hassle.

THERAPIST: I'm not saying it's not, but do you feel that you would feel at the end of the day, at the end of your life, that you lived a satisfying life because you didn't want to be hassled?

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) I don't know.

THERAPIST: On your deathbed you'll say, "Well, at least it wasn't a hassle."

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah, at least I didn't have to prowl the streets or something or go on ridiculous dates with ridiculous people. I don't know. The whole enterprise to me seems very ridiculous because I haven't done it very well before or for too long. [00:16:23]

THERAPIST: Did you meet Victor after this October, 2011?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When did you meet him after that or fall in love?

CLIENT: It all started in February. In October I felt that and then Chris was away and I felt liberated. (laughs) And then these three girls had really loud orgasms down my street that night. You can laugh, but (laughs) . . . okay. One was at 12:00, one was at 1:00, and one was at 2:00 AM. (laughs) They were very nicely timed and made sure I didn't sleep that night. Then I got a rejection from this scholarship that I had applied to and spent a lot of time applying to. [00:17:21] And then I got all these other magazine rejections and so I was just spiraling down and then I got another big rejection and I snapped and I considered rat poison. So then I was calling and texting everyone like a crazy person or just to see if anyone was available to talk. I was so depressed that whole day. (sighs) And then this guy from Ohio, Graham, he texted back and so I went there and had an experience. (laughs) It was weird, but it was very good. It had good chemistry. I think I've talked about him.

THERAPIST: You were on your way to see him one time when we met. [00:18:20]

CLIENT: Yeah, I had my bag packed. When was that?

THERAPIST: I don't know. It may have been in the summer.

CLIENT: That was a few days after Victor kicked me out. (laughs) That wasn't a good experience in the summer. Graham and I fought. (laughs) He hasn't spoken to me since. That whole week I was just completely turned on when I came back from visiting Graham. It was just like, "My goodness. This is not me. What the hell has happened?" I was just in a daze. [00:19:16] I didn't recognize myself. Chris was away and all, so I feel horrible thinking about him being away and working and me having experiences. (sighs) And then in February I hung out with Victor and I had a whole bottle of wine at his place and then he was talking about something and it depressed me and I started crying so he was comforting me. One thing really did lead to another. (laughs) I always used to like him so . . . yeah. I thought, "My God, I have this emotional connection with him. He's great. [00:20:17] He cares and he's really good in bed." So boom I really fell very, very hard and started to tell myself things like, "No one else can make me this happy." I started imagining a life with him. (sniggers) I felt very confident and I felt like I could do anything. I was working a lot those days, too. I'm working now, but those are good, original ideas that I'm now building upon and revising. I felt alive and stuff, but it was very rocky also because we would fight every week. [00:21:18] I was dating other people, too, while I was seeing him. I wasn't intimate with any of my dates except one person, but that was [ ] (inaudible at 00:21:45) anything. Then after he kicked me out I just went to Graham and he and I had a fight and then I went to Nepal with Chris. (laughs) I haven't really seen any other guys except Chris. [00:22:11] (pause) It's hard for me to understand myself, like what's going on here and what I want and how should I get it. Should I censor my desires a bit so I don't ruin my life? Yeah, because taking certain options or changing my life would feel like a big move and I'm afraid it might be for the worst because this is new and I'm not completely sure of it and not really comfortable with it. [00:23:12] (pause)

THERAPIST: Do you feel like a life with Chris is like a life without sex?

CLIENT: (pause) No. A life without too much excitement, too many emotions a steady, stable life and very solid, reassuring and comfortable. Again, like before I think I saw Victor January and I came back and I think I told you Chris was washing dishes and making tea and I was telling myself that this is another kind of happiness, the subdued, mellow kind. I might not want it right now. I might want the crazy, exciting kind, which I don't know why. I feel that's wrong, but last night also he made food. He made dinner and we saw 30 Rock together. (laughs) I have a big crush on Alec Baldwin. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Really? What do you like about him?

CLIENT: He's so strong and Tina Fey feels like a little girl next to him. (laughs) [00:25:09] I like his strength a lot. (sniffles) But he can have fun and he can make a fool of himself. (laughs) Do you watch that show, too?

THERAPIST: I don't. No. It sounded like I did?

CLIENT: Yeah, it seems these people . . . because they're famous, right? Life with Chris might not exactly be without sex, although we hadn't done it until this last October. [00:26:09]

THERAPIST: Do you have sex sometimes?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You never talk about it.

CLIENT: I know. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Do you purposefully not talk about it?

CLIENT: I feel shy, but I guess I'm trying not to be. I can talk to my friend about this so (pause) I guess I should talk to you about it, too.

THERAPIST: Over 15 minutes.

CLIENT: Chris says he's a creature of habit and he said I'd changed and he didn't change with me. Your question I'm trying to understand exactly what you want me to think about. [00:27:07]

THERAPIST: Which one I asked of you?

CLIENT: Life with Chris. (pause) It's more than that. I have to constantly now keep telling myself his standards are not my standards. His standards are not my standards. Like yesterday at school I was really trying to tell myself I'd been given a second chance, really. I don't need to get a third. (laughs) "The attitude that you had of you is really not a healthy one. [00:27:58] You should look at these people's work, at your work, as a great thing." Earlier I would be like, "Oh, my God. This sucks. That sucks. This is ridiculous." But instead of seeing it like that, I'm trying to tell myself that these are works in progress. There is something good here and our work is to figure out how to make it better. That is the whole thing. That's what this is all about. I felt like I was taking a giant step away from Chris and his line of thinking. It felt like something that he and I would do or did or even if we didn't, but I think we might. I would come home and be like, "Chris, that person wrote this and I just don't see any merit in it." And he would be like, "Oh, God. I feel for you and how horrible." [00:29:02] We were riding this high horse together, looking down on struggling artists. I want to jump off that high horse and be with those struggling artists, be on the ground and be like, "Yeah, we're all like this. My craft isn't that great when you're in the first round. There are all these little gems that need to be polished and polished and polished and that's the work. I'm not going to judge your rough drafts just like you don't judge my rough drafts. I'm going to be a far less judgmental person, far more open to the work." I felt like such a [ ] (inaudible at [0:29:52]) thing to do, which is what Chris is. I thought I was that way. I thought that's the kind of people I hang out with, but maybe it's not. Maybe I need to hang out with less of Chris's people and more of my people. I don't have that many people right now. [00:30:15]

THERAPIST: You have some people.

CLIENT: (sighs) I mean like struggling artists who are friends, like Chris. I want to cultivate that and have my own sphere in which there are different standards. So sex with Chris has all these other sides that I cannot separate.

THERAPIST: Like there's intercourse. There's the physical act, but there's so much more.

CLIENT: We have a lot more intercourse verbally (laughs) than the physical one. [00:31:01] Ninety percent of our intercourse comes from here. Ninety-eight percent. It's hard. Are people able to separate sex and all the other things in their relationship? I can't.

THERAPIST: I think it's hard for most people.

CLIENT: That's what my friend said, but she was only talking about one-night stands and not relationships.

THERAPIST: I would say it's not only even hard, but the question is why is it necessary?

CLIENT: To separate?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like what would the point of separating be?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like attraction, right? [00:31:58] After I've felt judged, I won't be attracted to the guy who has judged me, right? It's very sobering. Like after meeting that guy last night, I'm very sober. (laughs) I feel like dying instead of living. (pause) Do you think I'm sorry if my questions are . . . But do you think unless I have good sex or I find a good sexual partner I won't get over him?

THERAPIST: Get over who?

CLIENT: Victor.

THERAPIST: Him should be capital "H". [00:32:58]

CLIENT: We need to invent a nickname for him. I really hate saying his name. (pause)

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: I don't know because when my friend said that "sex" versus "love" I guess that I've been aware of it but the simplicity of it just really drew my attention to it. I've been saying to myself, "I love him. La-la-la-la-la," but maybe it's just pure, unadulterated lust. And the only way to . . . I don't know. (pause) [00:34:01] I just feel so bitter and rejected, you know? (sighs) Maybe I won't feel that way forever. I mean yeah, I won't feel that way forever, but it has been a year. Why do I still fantasize about him? Why do I still think about him? Why do I still think he sends an email and I'm like, "Oooh. You want to meet." (laughs) (long pause) [00:35:26] I have no idea what to do about this issue that has become an issue. I want to ask you ridiculous questions, but (laughs) . . .

THERAPIST: You should always feel free to ask ridiculous questions. I just retain the right to talk to you about them, but you should never feel that you shouldn't ask me things.

CLIENT: All right, what should I do? Should I move out? Should I start dating? Is this need ridiculously unreasonable or I mean desire, not need? Is it going to ruin me? Is Chris the right guy for me and I have such blinders on that I don't see him that way?

THERAPIST: How would it ruin you?

CLIENT: I'll have to find my own place.

THERAPIST: You've already done that before.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean like Arlington. I want to live here so I don't have to take the train Mondays and Wednesdays to come here. (laughs) See? It's your fault. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: I'm to blame for all of this?

CLIENT: Not all of it.

THERAPIST: Some of it? What parts am I to blame for? [00:37:01]

CLIENT: You know, like when I was living in Arlington, Tuesday nights I had my class and then I just started staying over at Chris's place Tuesday nights and then Wednesday early morning I had therapy. (laughs) I really like the square. Arlington feels suburban the beginning of suburbia and, hence, the beginning of depressing things. (sighs) I'm a very big person, aren't I? (chuckles) So finding my own place and how do I pay for a place in the square? [00:37:58] I would have to ask my mom to get a job and I might actually also have to find something on the side; maybe not if I can find a cheap enough place. That sounds like a big change.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: For what, you know? My mind is demeaning and cheapening it by saying, "Oh, just for sex you want a different place? You want to spend so much money every month?" That's ridiculous. (sniffles) (pause) More than that, it feels like prostitution. (laughs) I don't know where that's coming from, but that's such a heavy judgment. [00:39:02]

THERAPIST: Who is prostituting you? You're prostituting yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What are you selling yourself for?

CLIENT: For sex. Yeah.

THERAPIST: So you're exploiting yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Instead of staying with Chris and saving money and being a good little girl and focusing on my work.

THERAPIST: So somehow you feel that you'd be degrading yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:40:07] I know not everyone feels this way, I think. People in marriages don't move out and they say very calmly that this is not working and they've ended it. They have children and it's still okay. They have jobs. And then after a while they do start to date. That doesn't feel like prostitution. (laughs) Is it the church talking? I don't know. Could be. Or my dad. Between my dad and the church. (laughs)

THERAPIST: How is it that your dad is talking? [00:41:00]

CLIENT: He would always curse me and call me that.

THERAPIST: What would he call you, a prostitute?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When? When did he say this to you?

CLIENT: All through my childhood.

THERAPIST: He would just call you a prostitute?

CLIENT: Yeah. (sighs)

THERAPIST: Prompted by . . ?

CLIENT: Anything. Anything that made him mad.

THERAPIST: Putting your adult lenses on, do you have a sense of why that? Why a prostitute? Why that?

CLIENT: Supreme, strong curse word.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but would he say this do you speak Nepali? Is that your first language?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Would he say it in Nepali?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So is it like a whore or . . ?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like a whore?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:41:59]

THERAPIST: Hmm. (pause) I mean it's so complicated because he was with all of these women.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yes.

THERAPIST: I don't know. I know it's a horrible thing, so I may be intellectualizing it too much. It seems horrible, but it also seems strange, like it just doesn't seem to make any sense.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true.

THERAPIST: Even though I know it's horrible to you. It doesn't make much sense, which is why I'm kind of stuck on it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I see that. It's ridiculous because he was the one who was odd. (laughs) It was said to really stun me or shame me, whatever curses do. [00:43:04] I guess I didn't realize that those curses, some of them . . .

THERAPIST: Was that mostly what he called you or did he just call you all sorts of things?

CLIENT: That was his favorite. It usually started or ended with that. That was the most impactful word. He would call me bitch and stuff, but that you know that there are grades of curses so if you're called a bitch it's not that bad. (laughs) If you're called a whore, that's something really bad.

THERAPIST: Would he call your mother that, too?

CLIENT: Yeah. He'd call us a pair of whores. (laughs)

THERAPIST: He was really crazy. He sounds so crazy.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah. He sounds very crazy. You don't think so? [00:44:01]

CLIENT: Yeah, I know so, (laughs) but I'm trying really, really hard to separate myself from all that.

THERAPIST: I guess it's awful and it kind of doesn't make any sense. There are a lot of horrible things you can call people that still don't make any sense.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like, "You're a sociopath." That's a horrible thing to call someone, but it doesn't make sense if they're not a sociopath; they don't have any of the symptoms. Or calling someone a cannibal. It's terrible to call somebody a cannibal, but it doesn't even also make sense.

CLIENT: Bitch I find is very useful. (laughs)

THERAPIST: It's very general; it's sort of like a nasty person.

CLIENT: We have this understanding, okay, this is a bitch. (laughs) [00:45:01] She shows her teeth and gets her way and is stubborn. But a whore, not so much.

THERAPIST: No. It's more specific.

CLIENT: Especially for a person that's a child and has never had sex. (laughs)

THERAPIST: There's just something strange about it. Cecelia, we have to stop for today. I will see you on Monday, okay?

CLIENT: All right. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. You, too.

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