TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

CLIENT: Are you going to watch the D.C. Marathon today? [00:01:06]

I have a sort of friend who's running in it.

THERAPIST: Did you think I would be watching it?

CLIENT: Well you said last time something. You said you run, or something, so ... It's cold today (inaudible) for everyone I suppose. How long do they run for, like is it according to miles or ... [00:02:01]

THERAPIST: A marathon is, excuse me, always the same mileage no matter where it is, it's the same distance.

CLIENT: Oh, OK.

THERAPIST: It refers to a very specific distance.

CLIENT: Oh, OK. So like 100 miles or like 50 miles?

THERAPIST: 26.

CLIENT: 26. I didn't know that.

THERAPIST: 26.2.

CLIENT: So is it like the people in their, they come first and second and third and they do that or ...?

THERAPIST: Yeah, they do that, the top finishers. They usually are, you know, professional runners.

CLIENT: Yeah. How long does it take to run like 25 miles?

THERAPIST: It depends on how fast you run. They range.

CLIENT: Yeah, big range. [00:02:59]

THERAPIST: Sure. They have heats, and when they do it, the elite men under 210.

CLIENT: Two hours and ten minutes?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Wow.

THERAPIST: There's a huge range.

CLIENT: 26 miles, I would walk last. The most I can do is three. Can you walk? Do people start walking if they get tired?

THERAPIST: Some people do, sure. [00:03:59]

CLIENT: I think I'm too lazy to prepare for something like that. (pause) [00:05:11]

How do you prepare for a run, like do you run like every day, like five, six, 10 miles? (chuckle)

THERAPIST: It depends. Usually you run a certain amount during the week and then you run a long run on the weekend.

CLIENT: Long as in like 26 miles?

THERAPIST: Depends on, no, you don't usually run that whole distance. Most people like run like 22. It depends on where, if you can only run 3 miles, you start off your long run as three miles, and the next week it's four miles, the next week it's five miles. [00:06:01]

It depends on where you are. Even couch potatoes can run a marathon.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: They just get off the couch and start running?

THERAPIST: There was a documentary two years ago. They took like 12 couch potatoes, and 11 of them finished the marathon, including a 60-something-year-old woman.

CLIENT: Wow. But what kind of training did that have?

THERAPIST: They had a lot of, you know, many months, many, many months.

CLIENT: Many months. A-ha. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: (inaudible). Usually people train if they're in good shape, for four months. But if you're not in good shape, like eight months. Does that sound like a long time?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think (inaudible) little time, for like, you know, like the week ahead and even then, I realize, "Oh, I'm so old, I can't just (inaudible). I cannot do all that I planned for. [00:07:09]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you plan for too much?

CLIENT: Well, you know, I'm realistic. The thing I do, I say, "Oh yeah, I'm going to sit here for eight hours and finish this thing." You know, like this past week I was really stressed. I didn't know what to do. I thought I'd finish that piece that turned into that magazine, and still in shambles and so still this week I'm hoping to work on my project, and I haven't worked on it in like 15 days, and that's making me very cranky and purposeless. (chuckle). [00:08:03]

I'm disoriented and insecure and confused (chuckle). And I was like, "Oh, okay, you can do it the next whole month. Every day I'm going to work on the project," but it's obviously not going to happen even starting out today I know it's not going to happen, so it makes me sad.

THERAPIST: Why is it not going to happen?

CLIENT: Well today I have to finish the piece, so I'm thinking, maybe I should be easier on myself and be a little realistic and make more specific goals, like plan more specifically rather than just saying, "Oh, I'll work on this part instead." I can say, "No, I look at this theme and see how it can, you know." Maybe that will help. [00:09:09]

Be more specific in my planning and I've been stressing and I gained like two pounds (chuckle) in like two days (chuckle).

THERAPIST: Do you binge eat?

CLIENT: Yeah. Totally. I abuse food.

THERAPIST: When do you binge eat, at night? Throughout the day?

CLIENT: Yeah, throughout the day. I just like, I cannot I get really anxious so put whatever's out there in my mouth (chuckle).

THERAPIST: How does that help?

CLIENT: I don't know, something to do. It distracts me. The taste of the food just kind of, you know, it's gratification. [00:09:59]

But it's not, because I feel like feel yucky, you know? So I'm going to start, I'm going to watch what I put in my mouth (chuckle) and when I'm really like nervous and on edge, I just eat. Instead I could, I don't know, chew gum. (inaudible)

Advice? I'm kind of like feeling weird about this (inaudible), like preparing for the marathon. [00:11:02]

And participating. She and I are like a a group, clique, this women's initiative we just started, and she's always like she's so bossy, and at first I thought this was great, you know, we're a new group, I will meet someone, use initiative, and who can organize and send all the e-mails, but you know, this past week I was so busy, and she just kept sending me e-mails, "do this, do that." And then, you know, called me up, and like, "are you coming to this vigil?"

And I was I had like three other events to go to on Saturday. I made a mess of them all, I was at a thesis reading, and I stepped out to go to the stupid vigil, and then I couldn't go back, well it wasn't a stupid vigil, but I'm choosing merrily running a marathon, well it's not merrily, it's very hard. (chuckle) [00:12:00]

But I'm like, "Wow, she gave herself all that time to prepare." Every time there's something to do, or some event, she's like, "I can't make it, I can't make it, I can't make it." I cannot say, "I can't make it." She's so confident, it's brazen and I just feel weird. I get this when I'm lonely that I say these things. I'm sorry (chuckle).

THERAPIST: What are these things?

CLIENT: Well just like negativity and bitchiness and crabbiness and complaining. Like, you know, that I did, everyone else in my room, are finer than I am. Like two years ago, not that long ago, I would be devastated to see photos of people having fun online. But that's because (inaudible) weeks and stuff, so ... [00:13:13]

That was a really bad period in my life. But still, like now I'm even better, like I see people like they're, "I keep going to Alabama, and like 'ahh, I'm going crazy,'" and like I don't have, I can barely (inaudible) like once a week. He's in back, you know? And these people have so much time they go away for weeks and they're like lying on beaches, and there I am. I'm not that crazy about it, I'm just like, "okay, I have my friend," sometimes, you know. So ... [00:14:01]

I chose to do something that requires a lot of hard thinking, sitting down in one place for hours and just calmly thinking, and you know, I don't want to have fun in Alabama anyway. I don't know. I'm just like screaming at people I can scream at (chuckle), like my mom. [00:14:57]

But it's, it was a hard week, like filing her taxes and asking her, did they accept it, and did you check your e-mail? She's like blas� about it, and like la, la, la, and she came over for lunch, and she's checking her e-mail, and (inaudible) the friend, and she left her e-mail open and I saw they rejected the claim, and I'm like, "Oh, my God." So I just kind of, with Chris's (ph) help, figured it out, and resubmitted it, and she then called me later, like, "Oh, yeah, it got accepted, thank you." And I was like, "You know, I told you to check your e-mail and it was rejected. It's only because you came over and left your e-mail open that I saw it and fixed it, you know?" Chris (ph) was like, "Yeah, your mom was like this cartoon character like she walks, and can disappear." I don't know what's the name of that guy. [00:16:06]

But I think he's blind and like he's just walking off and off a cliff or something. People just do things random who doesn't really know (chuckle). I don't know. I was asking my mom about next year and like the my boyfriend's roommate is moving out, so I can go back (chuckle). It's like entirely through that house and live there. But, so that's where my mom, she will have a job, like "I don't know." I don't know. I used to pride myself of the fact that I take care of her, but now it's like, I don't know what is it, you know? It was really nice. [00:17:04]

It's super to be able to take care of someone else, you know, especially your mom. But it's hard. I've been cranky a lot when I see things like, oh, you know, it's infringing on my freedom or my time and what I want to do, so (pause). Now at least I started the conversation.

THERAPIST: How did it feel to start it?

CLIENT: Awkward. I'd rather just have my (inaudible) (chuckle), stub my toe. [00:18:07]

Chris's (ph) only, "Oh yeah, (inaudible)," I was like, "No, that's how we talk." That is actually a good conversation, and as his ex, and she hears it.

THERAPIST: Do you feel she feels anxious about what you're saying?

CLIENT: Probably, you know, she wants to be in denial and not hear it because it's still it's hard to wake up when you're having (inaudible). I don't know, a nice dream. I mean, it's not all peachy and like a nice dream for (inaudible), because she probably feels (inaudible). But it's like, you know, it's like talking to a wall, almost. It's like, "So, do you want to live with this friend of yours?" "No." "OK, is something you want your own place and you want me in it, and I don't want to, you know, get a job, so it's hard." Like I'm sorry, your life is so hard. [00:19:15]

I really, I'm not that blas� or intolerant. I was there with you and I know how hard it was, and you know, it has broken my heart, and, you know, from the damage because of all that happened, but you know, like I want to do other things. Like I want, no that's not what I meant. But the struggle is not yet over. I mean, as far as I can see, it's not over. You know, like I think she'd like to think that the days of our struggling are over, and she can relax and, but they're not over yet, you know? [00:19:59]

And why, and maybe you should never think that way that those (inaudible) these are the years of I don't know, plenty, or something. Why do you think that way, you know? Just life is life, you know, and you face many problems and you have to adjust accordingly, you know?

THERAPIST: Do you think she feels that you owe her something?

CLIENT: No, but I feel that I owe her, so. I mean, don't you feel like the other parents? Well at least in my culture, like we're trained to think that we owe them our life, so especially me, because like I mean, she really did struggle a lot to bring me up, you know? So I see that. [00:21:05]

And I want to, you know, repay her for it (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Are you (inaudible) your parents?

CLIENT: No, it's just (inaudible). I don't, she (inaudible) disgusting. I can't look at it.

THERAPIST: Are you feeling fidgety? Is that it?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because of what you're talking about?

CLIENT: I suppose (chuckle).

THERAPIST: You're talking about feeling burdened at the moment and ...

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm trying not to feel as burdened, like I remember when I still had my job, I felt burdened, and I remember like having this conversation with you where you said that I feel (inaudible). [00:22:14]

Like putting a burden on me, like helping them out feels like a burden, or having a job feels like a burden. I mean, that's why I kind of, I was so frustrated and I quit out of frustration like because I felt like it was a burden, you know? Because I didn't want to do the job any more, so ...

I mean, instead of thinking, you know, without any judgment, you know, negative or positive, you know, it was a job. I applied for it and I got it and it's helping me pay my bills. Instead of that, I looked at it as, "Oh my God, stifling me, ruining me." [00:23:11]

THERAPIST: I think it's safer to have those feelings about a job than your mom.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I think you feel that way toward your mom, and I think it's hard to think about her that way.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is hard. Well, I just I just get so angry, like last night, like this whole weekend, I was frustrated with her taxes, and actually it was an easy year. She didn't have as complicated as many things as last year and previous years (chuckle). But like, she's calling me, like "I want to attend this meeting, I want this meeting." [00:24:03]

And I was just yelling at her, I'm like, I don't know, what time?" And like, and I just felt like, "I mean, can you really not see you know in the whole weekend I spend doing your taxes and then I have a visitor, or Chris (ph) has a visitor," and she needs to be looked after literally. And like she just left and this (inaudible), and she left at 5:15 and the meeting's at 6, and you expect me to be there, like I wash my hair, I haven't exercised, my back hurts, I've been sitting around working, and I haven't done groceries and you really want me to come to the meeting? And like no one is coming there, like there's three or four people there. I just felt like so angry (chuckle). [00:24:56]

Like she can't see my point of view, you know? It felt like a betrayal, because I always try to see her point of view, you know? And then I get that it's hard for her and I try to protect her as much as possible, but I also see that I have to show tough love or something.

THERAPIST: Can I help you to deal with your fidgetiness rather than pulling out your hair?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Would that be OK?

CLIENT: Can you what?

THERAPIST: Help with your fidgety (inaudible).

CLIENT: Help?

THERAPIST: Yeah, like help find another outlet to do (inaudible). Would that be OK?

CLIENT: (giggle). Yeah.

THERAPIST: I know what we're talking about is really hard for you.

CLIENT: No, it isn't (chuckle). [00:26:05]

THERAPIST: I think being angry at your mother is hard for you. I think talking about how you wish she could understand your perspective and understand that you have needs outside of her needs is hard for you.

CLIENT: She has needs?

THERAPIST: No, that you have needs outside of her because you're saying she's not recognizing that. She's not understanding of your point of view.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't. And she's usually very, like, receptive and like, intuitive, you know? So I feel surprise that she's choosing to ignore this. I mean like, if I sit her down and just show her, like tell her, like, "I'm making this, and this is your end, so how do you expect me to do anything else with my money, like do anything you should maybe get something like a part-time job or something, you know?" [00:27:21]

I feel like that might help, but I don't know if it will actually produce any results.

THERAPIST: Produce any results in terms of ...

CLIENT: Her getting a job. I mean, like people take such care of themselves, and I've only just it's embarrassing that I'm so old and I've just realized that people have lives. And you know, you said it's hard for me to like, I don't know what word you use, you cleave away from my mother. What word did you use? [00:28:18]

I don't know, just like separate myself from her.

THERAPIST: I think I probably used separate, but cleave is a much more interesting term.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But cells cleave, don't they?

CLIENT: Cells?

THERAPIST: Cells, like cells that are connected.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It has a much more conjoint idea that cleave.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, and I'm just now becoming aware that, you know, I have a separate identity from her, and so different from her, you know, like, I'm not her, and it's OK to be not her. [00:29:01]

You know? To be a separate unit entirely, and like yeah, I just don't articulate what I want and I feel there's still little parts of like the summer, Chris (ph) said, OK, we have to buy our tickets, and decide what we're doing for the summer. So I just blindly said, you know, OK, fine, just go ahead and do it, you know, here's my money. Take it and buy a ticket.

And only now am I realizing no, I cannot go away for two months. I can probably go away for one month, and it's OK to say that, to have that. It's my money, so I should, you know, feel comfortable changing things around and figuring out what I want to do instead of tagging along with him. I hate that, you know? That's what I dread, and I still do it, despite everything. [00:30:02]

I don't want to go to the places he's going to want to do, (inaudible), you know? Maybe I'll just tell him tonight. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: About?

CLIENT: I, my biggest fear are lizards. Like the houses in the window, they just keep giving me dreams (inaudible). Do you think the dreams are really like me living on my own, and the house is just full of lizards? I'm like, "Ahh, this is terrible," you know, so I don't know why I associate with that, like, the thing may be the idea is going to go to Nepal with Chris (ph) and live in this place where there are lizards.

THERAPIST: What about lizards scares you? [00:31:17]

CLIENT: I don't know, freaks me out. They are quite annoying and ...

THERAPIST: You don't like how they look or how they move?

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle) I heard that everyone is afraid of lizards, which is strange. (chuckle) I have no idea what we've been talking about today. [00:32:04]

I think I just wasted the session talking and just blabbing about my work.

THERAPIST: Well you just spent the last 15 minutes or so talking about your mom. Do you not remember that, or ...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And wanting your own separate identity and your own separate life.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That doesn't seem important?

CLIENT: Oh, it does (chuckle).

THERAPIST: Does it scare you?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Thinking about these things.

CLIENT: It feels like I'm leaving someone behind, like you know, my innocence and the time when it was OK not to have a separate identity. [00:33:01]

Like you really don't need that to be alive. But you need it to do things, the kind of things I want to do, maybe. It feels wrong to say these things about my mom, I'm supposed to be loyal to her and look after her, so, but I just have to trust that I'm doing my best, you know? And actually try to do my best and not shirk those the responsibility and like the emotion, like I'm ignoring, maybe. [00:34:14]

And be realistic, a little bit too. And not to yell at her (chuckle).

THERAPIST: When you yell at her, what are you yelling about?

CLIENT: Just a little, (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Did you not go?

CLIENT: Yeah, no.

THERAPIST: Wait, I don't get it. Did you go, or?

CLIENT: No, no, no (chuckle). No, I just ...

THERAPIST: But it sounds like what you're communicating to her is your asking too much of me. [00:35:02]

CLIENT: Yeah. She was like, she called in the morning, like, "Yeah, I'm making this thing. You have to come over," or like, "I'm making this thing," that she's been wanting to make it for a long time, and Chris (ph) said, "Yeah, we'll come over." So I just said, "Yeah, I will come over probably for the evening," and I had my (inaudible) was going to need so much attention, and we took her to the airport right after, we came back at 5:15, she's just like, "You cannot do, you cannot do the meeting (inaudible) exhausting." But more like frustrated because we've no time to just sit and calmly reflect on stuff. [00:36:02]

I'm trying (inaudible) what how other people are relaxing while I'm not (chuckle). I get that way a lot, and that's very bad. It's kind of damaging for me.

THERAPIST: Do you think that's what other people are getting that you aren't getting?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like this marathon girl, right?

THERAPIST: What is she getting?

CLIENT: She's working on herself. She's doing what she wants to do, you know? [00:37:00]

And so am I (chuckle), but not complaining a lot.

THERAPIST: You mentioned that she has more freedom than you do.

CLIENT: Yeah. She has more control on her life. I don't know much about her actually, so I'm assuming things.

THERAPIST: Do you feel that one of the things that motivates you to keep supporting your mother is wanting to understand your position before no longer giving her money?

CLIENT: What? (chuckle) [00:37:57]

THERAPIST: Well, like it sounds like you want to show her or explain to her how the rationale about not giving her your money. You want her to understand, and I'm wondering if you're waiting for her to understand.

CLIENT: Probably, yeah, maybe. I'm waiting for her to find a job, so then all the explaining doesn't have to be done, you know? Then it's moot.

THERAPIST: Right, but she may not find look for a job until she needs to.

CLIENT: Well she is on like the track where she has to pass an exam and then she can get her license and look for a job.

THERAPIST: You had mentioned that a long time ago. Is she just not ready yet to take the exam?

CLIENT: No, she's taken it twice, but it's like a writing exam and [00:38:57]

THERAPIST: Has she not passed it, or?

CLIENT: Yeah, she's not passed it.

THERAPIST: I see. Do you feel like she can't do you feel like it's because she's not motivated to study, or is it too (inaudible?

CLIENT: No, she studies, but it's just a really hard exam, like she still makes, you know, grammatical mistakes in her essays, so, and she's had like training, so she's gotten books and she's taken classes, but you know, at her age, I suppose, it's hard. I don't know. Like if someone tells me, "This is a mistake you're making," I know I will try not to make it again. But she doesn't get it. (chuckle). So I don't know.

THERAPIST: So you're waiting for her to pass?

CLIENT: She's passed, just like three exams, she's passed two. So it's not like she's not smart or anything. But I guess the writing takes awhile to see your mistakes. [00:40:01]

THERAPIST: When does she take the exam next?

CLIENT: I don't know. She said in May, so we'll see. (chuckle) You know, she has pressure on her too, so ...

THERAPIST: Do you think the room will still be available?

CLIENT: I'm not (inaudible). Like last time she, they gave her a computer-based test, and that wasn't right, you know, because she, it's hard for her to take it on the computer. It's more comfortable on the paper.

THERAPIST: What is she training for? What are these exams for?

CLIENT: It's for teachers, licensure in Maryland.

THERAPIST: So she's hoping to teach.

CLIENT: Middle school.

THERAPIST: What is she teaching? What would she like to teach?

CLIENT: Science. Yeah, she's passed the science exam, and the English literacy skill exam. It's the writing that she's having a difficult time passing. [00:41:10]

THERAPIST: Is she willing to take like a job in D.C. in the schools there?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. That's what she wants.

THERAPIST: It's hard to get a teaching job.

CLIENT: Yeah. What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, even if she passes her exam, it might be some time before she gets a job.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: I don't I mean, I don't know. Teaching jobs can be hard to come by, but I know the city schools in D.C. it might be easier.

CLIENT: Well I don't know, because like she's doing a Masters degree, and she said that her teacher can help her, so, oh she's very personable. She makes friends everywhere she goes.

THERAPIST: So are you hoping that you'll no longer need to give her money once she gets a job?

CLIENT: Yeah. I actually was like, "So, how much money do you think you'll make?" [00:42:04]

She's like, "Yeah, maybe a (inaudible) $48,000," and I was like, "Wow." That's more money than she's ever made. She never made that much, so ...

THERAPIST: How do you feel about waiting?

CLIENT: Waiting? I've been waiting, so ...

THERAPIST: Well you've not been happy about it. You're getting less happy about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's, this thing with Chris (ph) also like that. Like, maybe it's separate, I'm just conjoining it (inaudible) cover up my fears, but like, you know, he wants, he doesn't want me out, but I should probably move out if we break up, but if I had all my paycheck for myself, I would be I would have that option. [00:43:09]

I would see it as an option.

THERAPIST: So now you have to wait.

CLIENT: Yeah. I can wait, I suppose. It's not a bad life.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you're overstaying your welcome there?

CLIENT: No, he doesn't make me feel like that. But it's just, you know, this we keep going around in circles. It's not even a circle, it's like a tennis ball, like "break up, don't break up, break up, don't break up." (chuckle) Because we're still, you know, intimate and stuff, and that can obviously confuse things. [00:44:02]

And I like him and I appreciate him, but then I'm like, maybe I don't love him any more, and maybe I can love him again. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Well I don't think that you want to recreate the situation your mother had where she felt trapped and there wasn't any way out.

CLIENT: You mean in the marriage, or ...

THERAPIST: It seems like in her whole life.

CLIENT: What in what way is she trapped? When was she trapped?

THERAPIST: She was married she didn't have the opportunity to worship (inaudible) and go back to school.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: And there is the (inaudible), and then over time she seemed saw herself as a victim and felt very trapped. Seems like her life is organized around being trapped with no options or choices. [00:45:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. So being with Chris (ph) makes me feel like that?

THERAPIST: Well I think the situation right now, you can't move out, you feel you can't move out because you don't have the choice to not give her money, and then I'm not sure if you're trapped with Chris (ph) to begin with, and then sort of feeling trapped about not having anywhere to go if you left him.

CLIENT: Yeah. I try not to think, to feel trapped. I try to tell myself that I came to live with him because it was a nice place, and you know, it was like this warm kind of womb where I could work, and I've been able to, so don't question that too much.

THERAPIST: What happens if you question it? You feel trapped.

CLIENT: The risk feeling trapped, yes. (chuckle) [00:46:00]

THERAPIST: So it's better to ignore it and just keep eating?

CLIENT: (chuckle) Yeah, if you put it that way (chuckle).

THERAPIST: You're clearly trying to comfort yourself somehow or distract yourself somehow.

CLIENT: But don't we do that while the situation is you might when you reach an impasse of some sort?

THERAPIST: Right. Well the question is, why is there an impasse?

CLIENT: Do you think I've made the impasse?

THERAPIST: I don't know if I would say made it, but I think you feel very stuck at it. I think it feels I think you can participate in it and solve it more than you feel I feel you have more control over it than you feel. I don't know if you created it, but on that note we need to stop.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I will see you Wednesday at our regular time.

CLIENT: At 9:00?

THERAPIST: 9:00, and thank you for your flexibility today. [00:47:01]

CLIENT: Yeah, no problem. Enjoy the marathon (chuckle).

THERAPIST: Oh, thank you. I will.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Bye.

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