TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(long pause at beginning of tape)

[00:03:37]

THERAPIST: Hi. (pause)

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: [Good, thanks].

CLIENT: Were you okay during the whole thing?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was fine. Thank you for asking. And you?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of (pause) scary because my mom lives in Cheshire. Like two blocks away from her was where the it all happened, and so she saw like all the police cars and heard gunshots and stuff. (pause)

[00:04:36]

I think for me I feel like the scary stuff is about to happen here. (chuckles) (pause) At the airport and stuff, you know, going through security, like all that. [inaudible at 00:04:57] is going to take place afterwards. Islamaphobia and like (chuckles) "immigrants are bad" or whatever. People are already, you know, talking like that. (pause) I kind of feel you know, I feel bad for that kid because he was just a kid. (chuckles)

[00:05:38]

But I know people have died and got injured. (pause) People don't really understand or want to understand their situations, you know? (pause) A part of why I feel trapped in relationships and things is because I feel trapped because of like nationality and citizenship. (chuckles) Like I was brought to the US in my teenage and I felt like I didn't have a choice.

[00:06:34]

Like I felt like I didn't want to come because, you know, I was 15. I was just about to go off to college in Nepal and I had friends there, so leaving them behind was sad and I didn't want to do it. You know, America was this big scary place and I didn't know anything about it. And then they came here and did not it was not how I expected, right? (chuckles) I had to work, and I had to give up stuff, and I had no friends and no one to talk to. It was very, very, very isolating, you know? I hated it. (laughter) And I couldn't say that to anyone. I couldn't like express this angst with anyone for years. (pause)

[00:07:36]

I felt like why did my dad do this out of his own greed? But they said "Oh, it's for you so you'll have a better life in the future, better opportunities." And I'm not like trying to deny any of that. Thousands and thousands of people want to come to the US for exactly those reasons, so they must be valid, you know? (chuckles) But I feel like all those people don't have psychological problems like my dad did, you know. (chuckles) They work hard and they stay close to their communities. At least that's what I gather from immigrant literature that I've read and people I've talked to.

[00:08:35]

I feel like their experience is far less isolating than ours was. (chuckles) (pause) And I feel trapped (laughter) thinking that. (pause) Not being able to, you know, get out or say anything. (pause) But I have seen a lot of positive things here, and I really want to like hold onto those and like turn this whole narrative around, you know. The narrative in my head.

[00:09:35]

I don't know. It's so weird. (chuckles) Like I think my mom wouldn't have been able to leave my dad if we weren't in the US. Like she wouldn't have been able to leave him in Nepal. So that's good and liberating. But it's so depressing and like so caustic and isolating. Like in Nepal, we had community and you're scared of the community because I guess my mom was more scared. I wasn't scared, you know. Like she was scared that they'd judge her and won't let her break her marriage. But I think that was only her in-laws, but how do I know? I was only a child. So now she doesn't want to go back to Nepal, but I do. I want to keep visiting and to me it's a place of, you know, a lot of beauty and people and community.

[00:10:40]

I always want to go and visit but she doesn't. But then yeah, so it's a positive thing that she left him here but then, you know, she didn't have anything to replace him with, you know? Like she's still struggling, she's still having to make her career and she's still at the starting gate, you know? (chuckles) Like some of her colleagues are, you know, 20-year-olds who've done it right. Gotten their Bachelor's and now they're working on their Master's and they're going to teach.

[00:11:29]

So yeah, I feel like it's mixed, you know, and I'm very, very scared of like (pause) Yeah, I just feel scared when I think of the US. (chuckles) It's given us things but it's also taken a lot away, I feel like. (chuckles) (pause) I don't completely feel positive about it. (pause) And it's not something you can say to anyone. (chuckles) I guess people ask "Oh, do you like the US better than Nepal?" Then you can say what places have their advantages. It's kind of understood but it's not really like you're still going through it and you still have emotions that you can't really express. (long pause)

[00:13:09]

I guess people like Chris [ph], they might feel the same way. They feel lonely here in the US, but they can't spend too much time thinking about it because they can't deal with the emotions. Then there's other people who only see opportunity here and they, you know, spend a lot of time just pursuing those and pursuing all of the things you get here and not worry about those that you don't. I don't know. Like I get all that and I know like yeah, I'm supposed to do that. Like in the US, I have more freedom and I should just focus on that and when I'm here, just do those things that I cannot do in Nepal.

[00:14:06]

But then I think of my past and I get really sad. You know, like how we were trapped and I keep thinking about that. It's like torture (chuckles) and I don't know why I do that. I should just not do it. (pause) It's very scary and if I I mean, consciously if I don't do it, in my subconscious I still kind of it's there. I don't know what that means in psychological terms [if I'm having doubt with it] or whatever. Like yesterday, we were doing a vigil at the square two blocks away and I was supposed to go and I went. But the previous night I had a dream that I think I just realized on my page that my wall was not private. I mean, it was open to public.

[00:15:09]

I have no idea how, when it's been, and that freaked me out. (chuckles) So I thought, oh my gosh, my dad is going to know where I am. So I had a dream that he tracked me down, and at the vigil he was there and he like bombed the place. (laughter) And I was so scared I didn't I was like, I don't want to go to this, he's going to be there. So I dreamed about what?

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, go on.

CLIENT: No, I dream about him coming back and it scares me. (pause)

THERAPIST: In the dream, he bombed the place or you were worried he would?

CLIENT: I don't know. I can't remember very specifically, but I just felt like he was there to harm me. I don't know specifically what it was, that he just did something that harmed me. (chuckles)

[00:16:17]

I'm not sure what exactly that meant. (pause) I mean, how he did it. (long pause) I guess I don't know. That feels like a trap. I mean, isn't it? I'm trapped with the same kind of emotions from my dad and I haven't been able to move on. I don't know. Maybe it doesn't mean that. I'm just wondering if that's what it means. (pause)

[00:17:16]

But to me, it just means that I'm afraid still, you know. (chuckles) I'm afraid of him. (pause) I don't know if it will go away. I don't know if it goes away in people, [like these feelings].

THERAPIST: Well, clearly there's some association between him and the men who bombed the marathon, that he too would bomb. There's some association that he's a dangerous person.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Capable of a very destructive act.

CLIENT: Yeah, he's always been like on the edge. Like he wasn't he hasn't he wouldn't hit me and stuff. I don't know if he actually how many other people -

[00:18:17]

Well, so the association was that the elder brother was a boxer and my dad used to be a boxer in college. (pause) And later on in life he would say stuff like "Yeah, I could be a hit man. I could get hired and I could do all those things." Like he didn't care. To me it sounded like he was trying to dissociate himself from his family. He never really wanted to be a family man. He always tried to like put my mom and I aside and try really hard to be free, you know. He did everything or he lived his life according to that principle that he was single somehow.

THERAPIST: It sounds like it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean -

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like he really sort of saw you guys as people he should come home to and take care of in any way.

[00:19:18]

CLIENT: Oh, absolutely not. It was actually the opposite. That he felt like he hadn't married, he hadn't a child, and he lied about it from the beginning. Like he wasn't there for six years anyway and then when he came back, he again started having affairs and I guess a lot of men do that. I know (chuckles) people sleep around and have affairs, but he would take it a few steps further, like he got really emotionally involved with this one student of his. She wanted to marry him and this and that, and she turned out to be a drama queen. So he took her to a different part of the country and he wanted to marry her. My mom was like "Yeah, I guess I'll step aside and you guys can do what you want."

[00:20:16]

Apparently they got married. I don't know how legal that was. (pause) And I don't know what happened. That woman finally somehow got over him and left. But yeah, he would just go about pretending that we didn't exist, you know. Not only were we not his responsibility he never thought we were his responsibility, but like he wasn't beholden to us or we weren't even related. (chuckles) The affairs he had in the US, one of them he said he lied and said he was divorced and he had like an 11-year-old daughter or a 9-year-old daughter, even though I was 18 or 19 at that point. (chuckles) (pause) I guess he too felt trapped.

[00:21:20]

THERAPIST: Why do you think he kept coming back? Like when you were six, do you know why he came back?

CLIENT: [There are] theories or reasons, my mom says, but (pause) I think she was always willing to take him back. Like she always she hadn't cut that connection, you know. She hadn't emotionally disconnected from him. I don't know if they were legally married. I think they had legally separated but still like, I mean, I guess he needed a family. I mean, we were his family on paper. I mean, biologically, I think. (chuckles) (pause) Why do you -

[00:22:17]

THERAPIST: Because what you're saying, like he wanted to be single, he wanted to, you know, be free I mean, why come back?

CLIENT: Mmmm.

THERAPIST: I imagine there is a reason because he did. So I wasn't sure if I wasn't understanding something culturally or legally.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's just not clear.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't think there were any cultural or legal specificities, but I think he just failed. Like he didn't have a steady job and my mom was always there to take care of him so he came back.

THERAPIST: I see. Do you think it was mostly that, somewhere to live and food?

CLIENT: I think so. (pause) Yeah. (pause) I mean, yeah, what else because if those affairs didn't work out and then he was left in the cold I suppose. He didn't have it in him to make his own life, you know, right?

[00:23:20]

I mean, that's why I'm trying to compare him to like all those comedy shows or stories. All these CEOs have secret families and all. (chuckles) So, I mean, that makes me think yeah, okay, people have affairs but then they also have jobs and they make money. But that's not the case in his case.

THERAPIST: Did he live off these other women when he was with [other women]?

CLIENT: I'm not sure. I'm not sure of the financial thing. (pause) Like the woman he quote-unquote married, he was teaching at this computer academy and she was a student. So then he was making for those few years, he had a job until the academy tanked. (chuckles) (pause)

[00:24:22]

And here in the US, he didn't really have he had a steady job when we were all in a small town in Virginia, but then afterwards when I think it was patchy. I think he worked in a fast food restaurant once, but I don't think like the women took care of him financially. I don't think anyone did that other than my mom. I'm not sure why he kept coming back. I might have to ask my mom now. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What about your mom? What do you think was in it for her?

CLIENT: I think she loved him. She kept thinking she could change him.

THERAPIST: Into what?

CLIENT: (chuckles) Into a more responsible guy. (chuckles) Yeah, I think she probably had a very, very specific list of demands. Like one, quit smoking; two, get a job; three (chuckles) You know, control your temper. (chuckles)

[00:25:28]

THERAPIST: Do you think it bothered her that he was with other women?

CLIENT: I'm sure, yeah. I'm sure it devastated her. Like she would stay up I think I was there [when I was actually] aware of something that must have been happening. Like he was at a bar or something or she said she kept calling, wanting him to come home, and I fell asleep at some point. He came in the morning or something and he said "Now, you know it's very hard. I have no job" and this and that. "I have to be the designated driver, that's what I was doing." So he was trying to guilt-trip us into thinking he was up to something other than completely selfless (chuckles) and public serving.

[00:26:22]

But I don't know. You know, I could never trust him, so maybe he was doing that. (chuckles) I think at that point I believed him. (chuckles) (pause) Does this ever go away? Like if you come from a crappy family like is mine a crappy family? Would you agree? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (chuckles) So does this ever go away, or am I going to keep talking about it?

THERAPIST: What's the "this"? Does "this"?

CLIENT: I don't know. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, maybe we should think about what you might want to know about what "this" is.

CLIENT: Will I ever stop talking about it? Well, maybe not so much that, but me to keep getting affected by this.

[00:27:21]

And by that, I guess I mean not having those dreams or not like feeling afraid of him and like yeah, I don't know. Not being affected by the past. Like [inaudible at 00:27:44] would keep telling me "Your past reflects in your present behavior, you should get therapy" and this and that. So I guess how he could see that, he would be like "Okay, we're not meeting" and I would just go completely to pieces and say stuff to him like "I have a fear of abandonment because when I was 10, my dad walked out on my mom." (chuckles) So that's what made him say "Your past behavior your past reflects your present behavior." I guess that not happening too much.

[00:28:23]

THERAPIST: I have a few thoughts a few questions, actually. My first question is, can you imagine that? Can you imagine a time where your past feels like it can dominate your experience?

CLIENT: Yeah, like when I feel strong and when I'm feeling positive and when I feel like I can do stuff. I wouldn't say "do anything." (chuckles) But do stuff, like work and get be successful and help people and be sensitive and articulate and all that. Yeah, just be positive and see that in people, that I did something good, then I feel like that cloud of my past is far away, you know. Even when I'm dealing with my mom and she doesn't seem miserable or anything, you know. When I feel like I can move forward and I have [inaudible at 00:29:25] and stuff, I don't see my past dominating me.

[00:29:35]

THERAPIST: And so in asking me that, did you want affirmation about that?

CLIENT: About what?

THERAPIST: Well, you said do I think that there could be a time where this won't dominate, and so I asked you and you said "Yes, I actually do think so."

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: So I'm wondering, and you're asking me, did you want affirmation?

CLIENT: I guess, yeah, I like the reminder that yes, it is possible. (chuckles) Or maybe just [correct my attitude a little bit] and say "Well, there will be periods where you will feel down, and then you will find your path pulling you back." I don't know. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: So what came to mind is both, both sides. One that I would not let you be too quote-unquote too hopeful, and the other side -

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: to affirm that you can sort of overcome some of these fears.

[00:30:32]

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I feel like those moments really highlight the ways that you can feel very alone.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Because it seems like you feel sort of out there on your own with your own thoughts and fears, and you're looking for me to ground you somehow.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) (pause) I guess grounded in the boundaries of human experience and like what other people have gone through (chuckles) so I don't feel so weird and alone, I guess.

THERAPIST: What came to my mind, not remembering much physics, is like when you ground an electrical charge.

CLIENT: Mmmm.

[00:31:28]

THERAPIST: That's what came to my mind. Like you don't want to be too hopeful, but not too pessimistic.

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Grounded like an electrical charge.

CLIENT: Yeah, I suppose. (pause) Yeah. In a way I have this need to be grounded. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: That's interesting. (pause) I know this has come up at times throughout our work. Aside from the logistical parts, do you feel that coming an extra time, especially after Wednesday, a week for a while would be helpful to you?

CLIENT: I think it would be. It's just for me, it's the financial -

THERAPIST: Well, that's because finances are just logistical and certainly not just logistical.

CLIENT: Yeah.

[00:32:22]

THERAPIST: But I wanted I always want to think about what's best for treatment and then figure the fees out.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I wanted to because I know I've brought it up, and I feel like we've never fully discussed it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so to start with, it's helpful for me to know what you think would be ideal and take it from there. So has that been something that you've thought about?

CLIENT: Well, since there are logistical problems, I haven't thought about it too much. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Maybe that's a problem in itself.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, if you don't let yourself think about things because you imagine it's not possible, then what are all the things you're not allowing yourself to think about?

CLIENT: What? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's two-pronged. One is, that might be a even if things aren't possible, there might be a lot of value in thinking about them, and you may also assume that things aren't possible that might be possible.

[00:33:19]

CLIENT: Yeah. I try not to I don't know. (chuckles) It's funny. I feel like I have you and Chris [ph] and all these other people to like curb my enthusiasm all the time. (laughter)

THERAPIST: What do you mean by that?

CLIENT: Well, this is where I feel like a child or like I don't feel like I can make my decisions and I feel alone and childish, I suppose. Like I wanted to go to Greece on my own and not with Chris [ph]. Or like go with him but do my own thing because I don't trust him to provide the right kind of dynamic that I'm looking for. So I found this teaching gig where you stay there and teach English for two weeks, but that just kind of looks a bit dubious.

[00:34:21]

Like I asked the guy to send me e-mails of previous instructors and he said "That's not possible right now." And Chris [ph] kept going "This looks weird, this looks dubious." Then finally I'm like forget it, I'm not going to do it. So even though it might be legit, I have all these fears of it might be legit. Of course, you don't want to go to a country you've never been to before and live in a strange city with God knows who for two weeks. But you know, that's kind of like I keep going from possibility to trap to possibility to trap. Because that possibility now looks like a trap, you know? (chuckles) I'm in the middle of nowhere in a place I don't know, two weeks, okay, it feels like a trap. (chuckles) I just feel weird, you know, like my own thinking, I'm sure, makes possibilities turn into traps.

[00:35:26]

THERAPIST: Do you think you could get trapped in therapy?

CLIENT: Hmmm. Because I hope I mean, it doesn't feel like that. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: The mornings when I'm like, oh, do I have to go? (chuckles) But other you know, I don't feel trapped.

THERAPIST: Well, let me ask you this. How do you feel coming an extra time a week would be helpful to you?

CLIENT: I don't know. Would we have enough to talk about? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: That's not how it would be helpful to you. That's how you're skeptical it would be helpful to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. Would it be helpful? (chuckles) (pause) I don't know. What would it be like [to watch therapy]? (chuckles) (pause)

[00:36:26]

Like how does it happen? How does like something you're feeling positive about turn into a trap? (pause) I don't know. (pause) I guess it happens with other people. (pause) At one point [inaudible at 00:36:56] liked me and then very quickly (chuckles) it turned into a trap he didn't like, and he just pushed as hard as he could. So it happens with other people. (chuckles) (pause)

[00:37:23]

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like I mean, this is something I'm suggesting. I have thoughts about how it might be useful.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it sounds like it's not simply logistical. It's also you're not sure it's something that you want or you have thoughts about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess we have to do it if it was logistically possible. We can see how helpful it is. (chuckles) I cannot predict how it might be.

THERAPIST: Right. Well, there's the and that's even logistical, is it helpful. But your thoughts about it and worries or feelings about it are important too.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: On a very basic level, sort of the way I see what we're doing together is I mean, you have very ambitious and I mean that in a very good way -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: goals about what you want for yourself emotionally and in your life.

[00:38:28]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You want things to be different. You want your experience to be different. You want possibilities to be open. You want to be thinking and feeling about things differently than you have before. As you said, you know, is your past going to dominate your experience or can you change it. And you already have. I mean, you're already making great progress.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But there's a lot to be done. And in general, when I see people who want to do this, I do think frequency helps more than -

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It's almost like when you learn a language. If you do an immersion program for six months, you're better off than taking it once a week for two years, you know?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it's not only the amount of sessions, it's the intensity and I do think the intensity can help.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And that's the general idea I have. And you use this process beautifully, you really do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I see that you use twice a week intensively, and I do think that could even sort of be deepened with three times a week. Not to say that twice a week isn't very I think it's very helpful.

CLIENT: Yeah.

[00:39:28]

THERAPIST: But that's my thinking along those lines when I think about frequency of treatment.

CLIENT: Okay. Yeah, I mean, sure. (chuckles) I would welcome that experience then (chuckles) if you recommend it highly. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Then there's also the practical issues, and then there's your feelings about it and what it even means, which is part of it too. I mean, I'm definitely willing to you know, I think I mentioned I don't think it's a good idea to bill your insurance for a third session because I think they probably won't pay for it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'd rather just have the benefit from what they're covering.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But obviously well, not obviously I'd offer you a very reduced fee for that third session a week.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It would be more than zero, but -

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: it would be a very reduced fee but I also appreciate, as we've been talking about, that finances are very tight.

[00:40:22]

CLIENT: Yeah, I wish I could do something about that but -

THERAPIST: Well, that's also what we're talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Sorry, what were you going to say?

CLIENT: No, I just wanted to like give my work a few more months and not get a job just yet, you know? Like I'm not in a good place right now mentally or work-wise because I haven't worked on my project for 23 days now and that feels like so horrible. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: So in your mind, being able to come a third time a week would mean sacrificing your craft somewhat.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I mean, I'll have to see, like not just about the money issue but also like the (pause) Yeah. Because it's not like I come here and I forget what we talk about.

[00:41:24]

I make notes as soon as I get back, or mostly as soon as I get back, and then I try to think about it over the course of the week. So that takes time I think. I'm trying to be very realistic (chuckles) about it, which is new for me. So that takes time and I think it's one of my priorities actually as much as my work. I think it's basically on par with work right now.

THERAPIST: It's such a complicated calculus because people go to therapy so they can live a fuller life.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you don't want to do so much therapy that it's impeding your living your life right now.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it's an important calculus. I mean, the goal is hopefully not to have therapy happen all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In some ways maybe but in terms of working on things -

[00:42:21]

CLIENT: Right. These are the two things I need to work on basically, like my work and therapy. Some people would say therapy is most important but for me, working is slightly more important just because it's what got me depressed and it's also my therapy in a way, right?

THERAPIST: Well, and hopefully they're not in competition with each other.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, only when it's logistical like with money, it could be in conflict. And time-wise it could be [in conflict]. I don't think I mean, there are a bunch of other things that I'm doing which I feel like I can reduce. (chuckles) Like the stuff in the community, but then that also becomes some kind of a therapy. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well yeah, we can I mean, first of all, again, I'm willing to make the third session very reduced.

CLIENT: Yeah.

[00:43:20]

THERAPIST: The other thing I don't know if it's a mistake I got your insurance payment last week at some point, and they paid an extra $10 a session.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I don't know if that's an error or if they're actually paying $10 more a session, but then I could just credit that to a next session.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You know what I'm saying?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it would be even cheaper.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And if they are doing that, I have to adjust your co-pay too.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But anyway, just to let you know. So it's not a huge logistical piece, but it is a little piece that could be less money.

CLIENT: Well, if they are paying more then they will definitely come back and realize their mistake at some point. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I don't know if it's a mistake or if they raised their rates. I have no idea. I can find out.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It could be they raised their rates.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't know.

CLIENT: I don't know either.

THERAPIST: They usually don't give extra money away.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) Sometimes they do. I think I once got a check by mistake and then they said "Oh, don't cash it, don't cash it."

[00:44:21]

THERAPIST: Well, I'll look into that piece.

CLIENT: Okay. You can look into it (chuckles) and you can let me know how much it would be and (chuckles) I can see because I thought maybe I should live on my own, but even that might have to be put on hold. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Because?

CLIENT: Money. (laughter) It's all money. It's like all tied up. Like if my mom finds a job, then I'll have my own money and then I can spend it. But if she doesn't find a job, then I have to stay with them unless I would find a job of my own which I don't right now.

THERAPIST: Well, that's not true. That's true because I mean, you don't have to wait for your mom to find a job in order to live on your own. You don't have to give her money and she can worry about that herself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

[00:45:22]

THERAPIST: You're not making that decision.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's still your decision.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's a decision. I shouldn't see it as a have-to.

THERAPIST: Well, you feel that way.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's funny how my experience of things is very different than what is actually happening or might seem to a third person. (chuckles) (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, in that way, if we go back to the idea of being trapped -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You make her your captor.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Well, in the sense that she you can't do anything without her doing something.

[00:46:20]

CLIENT: I guess we're in a lock. Like a deadlock. (chuckles) But trying not to like make this feel too much of a trap, although I guess it seems like that. (pause) Yeah, like it's also like a sheltered space where I could be productive, like do other things. (pause) Like a lot of other creative things, they happen within enclosed spaces.

THERAPIST: Like Rushdie?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Didn't he write a lot while he was in prison?

CLIENT: Yeah, and Proust and [inaudible at 00:47:14]. They all had to go away and put aside their [Paris] adventures and live in a very small town. In their mothers' places, I think. (chuckles)

[00:47:29]

THERAPIST: We should stop here for today. I'll see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay, have a good day.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT