TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: And I'm sorry about having to cancel on you at the last minute. My childcare and my (unclear).

CLIENT: Oh, no. Oh, no.

THERAPIST: So I know your message back to me said we can reschedule for this time, but it's likely the last session for a while.

CLIENT: Yeah. So there's been so much change in my life, it's like I can't even keep track. I don't even know what I've told you. But, so I think I've decided to stay even if I get into Vanderbilt because I'm going to be like putting my life on hold, like literally for these people that's so annoying. Plus, that's like $24,000 (unclear) so it will all be coming out of loans plus living expenses. I don't know. I think I may as well just take an extra year. You know?

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: In term of like, financially, that might make the most sense for me. So I think I've decided to stay but I like, it will be so much going on in my life plus I'll be working like full time for the rest of the summer and like it's so like I mean, to be, I don't know and I also wanted to like I feel like there's a lot of stuff that I've learned and I'm like just starting to like see things different. I'll tell you a couple of those in a second, but like I don't know I just feel like I kind of want to have time to like practice those, but like (unclear) or that's okay.

THERAPIST: (Chuckles) Yeah. I mean -

CLIENT: Does that sound like a reasonable -?

THERAPIST: It does. Of course. Because I think, you know, how you use therapy is totally up to you. I think there are a lot of different ways to use therapy. So could it be useful for you to continue to come in every other week and talk about the way that you're using these skills in places where we see that you could implement them?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Will you be safe and able to work on these things on your own?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: You know, if there was a if I felt that not coming in what's going to set you back or if there is any danger to you, you know, I would highly encourage you to stay and likewise if I felt like you coming in was a waste of your time, I would encourage you to sort of taper off and find a way to do it on your own. But I think you're in a place where you can make use of sessions, but where I also feel like, yeah, you do have a lot of knowledge and skills that you've learned through your time in here that you can go practice on your own.

CLIENT: Yes. And I think I'm just like starting to see how like you know how you said like, 'oh, like you have to do this a couple of times and maybe you'll start seeing like positive,' and I'm like I feel like a little snowball is happening. At least these past two weeks it's been like I've seen, almost like I don't know, like more like I've just been able to say stuff off the cuff whereas like before I would have never, like ever, been able to say that kind of stuff. That's been really nice.

THERAPIST: So being able to see that makes it easier to keep pushing and doing stuff like that.

CLIENT: Right, right. So yeah, I guess I want to try that more. I mean I have, I still have things that I don't feel so great about, like the whole body thing, but I started the gym and I'm trying to do that and I'm trying to feel better about that. But anyway, I guess that's kind of where I was coming from.

THERAPIST: So it sounds like it's a thought-through decision.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I guess maybe like some of those things I wanted to tell you about was did I tell you about the guy I met the time I went to Bridgewater? And like this guy kept calling me. I didn't tell you about that/

THERAPIST: No. I didn't hear that.

CLIENT: Yeah. So in Bridgewater it's like really weird. Well I was meeting up with my friend from my old job and it's weird because you have to park and you have to go pay the thing and put it in your thing, your card, windshield I mean you have to go like do -

THERAPIST: Go (unclear) thing again.

CLIENT: Right. And so I was doing that and I had parked right near the thing and so I was doing this back and forth thing and this guy was standing there right in front of the restaurant that I was going to go to to meet my friend, and he kept saying stuff and he was like, 'hey, you look so good in those jeans.' Like, 'nice butt.' And crazy stuff like that and I was like, 'oh my God.' And I was like holding it in while I was I guess on the way there and whatever. But then when I was going to walk by him he kept saying stuff like to walk in the restaurant and I was like, I turned to him and I was like, 'look. This is not very nice of you to say, like you don't know if I feel like crap about my body,' and like I just went on and on and I went like on a little rant a little bit and I was like, 'you really this makes me feel really uncomfortable and like I feel like this isn't really respectful.' It was like all this stuff. And he's like, '"I didn't mean to offend you. I'm really sorry if I did. I meant it as a compliment." I was like, 'I know you meant it as a compliment but like it really makes me really uncomfortable." And he was like, 'okay.' He kind of like apologized and I was like, 'whoa.' (Laughs).

THERAPIST: That's a nice response.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I know that, I mean I said it like nicely and stuff and I noticed afterwards because I thought it through and was like, 'wow, it's sort of like it makes me feel like odd statements, like that really works, huh?' (Laughs) Because it could have easily have gone the other way, like, you thought like you are being really rude or whatever.

THERAPIST: Well, you've had that response, too. I remember some guy in the bus, at the bus where you were parking, or he was parking illegally.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I don't know. And then, but there were some guys like at the Square that did the same thing again, so that that was a really positive thing that happened. Like at the Square like there was like glass between us and they just like, as soon as they saw that I was getting upset, they like started going nuts and making all these like obscene gestures and I ended up flipping them off and walking away. But like, I felt like I wanted to say stuff to them. It was like because they were inside the restaurant or whatever. Although I don't know if that would have been extremely productive because they seemed really belligerent. But anyway.

THERAPIST: It makes a difference also with people being in a group versus approaching an individual having an individual discussion with one other person.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Because that group in fact can be hard to penetrate.

CLIENT: Right, right. So, but anyway, I was I even felt good that I flipped them off.

THERAPIST: You stood up for yourself, in a way.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughs) Which I usually only do when I'm driving, but yeah, there were a bunch of things, too, like [Angela] (sp?) my roommate, had a (unclear) scheduled for Friday during the lockdown. And I told her I would drive her because she needed an escort and plus it would be nice if I wouldn't have to walk back. I figured like I (unclear) valet, like (unclear) like whatever. 00:06:58]

And she was like, 'if you feel uncomfortable, we don't have to do it.' Because apparently she called and they were still taking people during the lockdown, and I was like, 'I don't know man, those guys, it's crazy, it's bombs. So I was like, I ended up like saying no, like I felt uncomfortable and she called to possibly reschedule but then I was like, you know what? Like I'm not going to allow this guy to like, you know, I'm just going to go, do it and whatever. So then I was like, 'Angela, you still want to go?' And we decided to go. But I felt like ordinarily I would have just been like, 'okay, fine,' and felt really uncomfortable about it.

THERAPIST: But being honest about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Making your decision rather than being, feeling guilted into a decision.

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah, I don't know. So that was that felt really nice, too. I don't know. I guess a lot of like little things.

THERAPIST: Well, I'm glad you're being able to see sort of the effect of trying something different.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Yes. And I think it might be that I'm trying it more. I mean I've tried to try it before. (Laughs) But it somehow it's almost like it's easier, or like, more natural and I don't have to think about it as much.

THERAPIST: This is coming up right away as a possible response.

CLIENT: Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. Like before I'd be like I'd say, 'well, yes,' but the next day I'd be like, 'oh,' and not even realize it at the moment -

THERAPIST: What is was that made you feel angry about it.

CLIENT: Right, right. Exactly. So I don't know, it's just kind of been going on. And otherwise, like I got a job, which is nice.

THERAPIST: What are you doing?

CLIENT: I'm doing this evening I'm (unclear) and training and stuff, which is new for the summer, and then I'm starting at New Haven Public Schools, which will be -

THERAPIST: It's a better commute.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So where are you doing it?

CLIENT: Waterford. So I'll just ride the subway for two hours or whatever.

THERAPIST: Hopefully, it won't be that bad.

CLIENT: No. I looked it up and it's actually two hour, so -

THERAPIST: Really.

CLIENT: But anyway, it'll be fine. I kind of miss a long commute anyway, so that will be nice.

THERAPIST: On the subway at least you can read or you're not driving, you can take a nap.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Yeah, I'll probably do that. But so, I think I probably told you about my landlord a few times, not renewing the lease. So I like e-mailed her and she called me back and she was like, 'no, it would be great to have you back,' and then I think she changed her mind and was like, 'we got a tenant,' and I was like, 'you did not get a tenant without showing them the place.' You know? But anyway. So I'm definitely moving out and my friend actually has this like perfect sublet it's like perfect, right? Perfect location. It's really close to the subway, perfect price like everything is like great. And the timing is like exactly perfect. But, it will be basically living with this guy I have a huge crush on and I've been like really thinking about it. I don't know if that's a terrible decision but it's only for two months so like, well maybe it will be okay. I don't know.

THERAPIST: What would you do after two months?

CLIENT: I have to like -

THERAPIST: Or to be determined.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's September. Because my lease ends at the end of June, which makes no sense, right? Like who lease ends at the end of June? So I wanted to get a sublet until September 1st so that I can be on schedule at the (unclear) house. And that way there will be more options and I can find a better place. So I don't even know how I feel about (unclear). I feel like [00:10:37]

THERAPIST: So who is the guy?

CLIENT: He's this guy from (unclear) school. But we never saw each other for like, the year after or whatever, and now he's started in like part of a spiritual community sanctuary and they meet here at (unclear) parish and he's kind of like one of the leaders and I started to sing with him which is a whole other like thing, right? Because that's so nerve-wracking to sing. So I've been seeing him a lot more and, I don't know. I don't know. (Laughs) I guess it's complicated. But -

THERAPIST: What's your actual relationship with him? How would he describe you?

CLIENT: We're friends. Like, not super-great friends, you know, but like, almost like we're actually friends like he and I are friends but more like friends of friends closeness status. Do you know what I mean? So we're not like super-close. So another reason I have no idea why I have a huge crush on him like that makes no sense, because I don't know him that well. I know he's a nice person -

THERAPIST: You (cross talk) and he's a nice guy.

CLIENT: Yeah. And he's studying to be a minister and I think that says a lot about a person. I don't know. It's kind of cool. But I feel like a I don't know, it's like such a crush, like I feel like I'm 13 or something. (Laughs) I don't know. So I guess I've been trying to figure out kind of what to do.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What would be what's the worst case scenario?

CLIENT: Right. So I was thinking about that like maybe we like get together and then there's this awful breakup and then we have to live with each other for another four weeks. But I guess, four weeks isn't that long. I don't know. Yeah, I guess that would be a yeah, that would be the worst case scenario I think. I guess there's always a worse case scenario.

THERAPIST: What would it be like if you lived there and he dated someone else?

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, that would be worse? (Laughs) Well, I don't know. That might be worse. I'm pretty good at like repressing. (Laughs) I don't know. I think that would be an equally worse case scenario. But I don't know. On a certain level I would be happy for him, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I'll date someone, too. I don't know.

THERAPIST: It's possible.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You could also look at what's the best case scenario.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I do tend to think about worse case scenario more than I do -

THERAPIST: Well I think it's important to look at both and figure out would this be a viable living option for you for a couple of months.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah. The purpose of looking at the worst case scenario is to say if that happened, would this be an okay living situation?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think, I mean almost I guess I'm sort of leaning towards doing it just because I feel like it's just two months. Likes, two months are like I'll think of a (unclear) lifetime. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Do you have other options?

CLIENT: That's the other thing. This is really the best option. Because I would be moving in like the last week of June which is perfect because that will give me a week to move instead of like having to do it all in one day. And then I would stay until the end of August, which is perfect because that's when I would want to move to a new place. So I don't know. I've been thinking about that, too. But, I don't know. There's been and then there's like other stuff going on, too. Like I talked to my mom recently and we were talking because I told her I was like, because I kept telling her my life was a shit show basically. Like, before when I got fired and I didn't know where I was going to live and like everything was so up in the air and I told her I'd call her when I got the job and I was like, 'look Mom, like I'm getting my life back together. It's okay. It's going to work out kind of thing.' She was like, 'yeah, I was really worried about you, and I was going to come up and maybe help you move because I wanted to feel like you needed me,' or something. And I was like, oh, that's so sweet. So there's just a lot going on.

THERAPIST: How did it feel to hear that from your mom?

CLIENT: It was so nice. I mean it was really sweet because I think it was a way of like recognizing that I am independent as opposed to 'I'm trying to be independent,' which is what it's always been. And I don't know, it was just like a really sweet thing to say, and I was like, 'you can come help me move if you want.' Moving sucks, but you can help me.' I guess I'm just not that's a foreign feeling to me, like I don't know that, at least not now -

THERAPIST: Having it be acknowledged that you're an independent person.

CLIENT: Yeah. That felt nice. But I also, I don't know what it feels like personally. I mean, maybe I will. But to like want to be needed. Like I don't really know. That's like a foreign thing to me. I don't know. So yeah, that was new. [00:16:23]

And I also kind of feel like we started to talk about really weirdly personal things, my mom and I, I mean and like I still won't tell her like everything, but I don't know, it's almost like when I tell her there is more it's like more open, I guess.

THERAPIST: And how has she been responding to hearing stuff like that?

CLIENT: I think that she's been more open, but it makes our conversations more emotional, which I guess is like a little weird. But it seems to be more like in her comfort zone, almost, like she's -

THERAPIST: So she's getting more comfortable about (unclear) emotional intimacy with you.

CLIENT: Yeah. But it's almost like she's used to talking on this level and I'm just joining her. You know what I mean? So I don't know. It's that's also new. It's like so there's newness everywhere. So, yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: I wonder what's allowed for that.

CLIENT: I think the language I've been using has been changing, almost. Like and I will see it like as a reflection of words I use in English. Like it's almost like both shifting or like, because I remember I don't usually have to search for words in French, right? But I like, I find myself looking for a word or like, and that's really not usually the case.

THERAPIST: Using different ones.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or maybe trying to be more specific or, do you remember the word you were searching for?

CLIENT: No. I mean I think I was talking about, I was talking about the bombing, right? Because I can't really (unclear) so it was like are you okay? And -

THERAPIST: Where were you?

CLIENT: I was driving around the area but I wasn't anywhere close. I was like by University of New Haven, so on the other side.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And because I went to see an apartment. Well I went to sketch out the area of an apartment. But the next day I actually, I had to be at a church like in my area, in the area, to sing. I was going to it was like rehearsals for the Thursday thing. And the so I was on a train at like 9 in the morning and I got to Cheshire, and I thought the stop was really close to everything down I thought I looked it up and it was like five blocks the other way, but it was right there. So I like, got out of the subway at the Cheshire stop and it was like right there and it was this empty street and it was like, 'whoa.' And the subway was -

THERAPIST: Unsettling.

CLIENT: Yeah, and the subway was totally empty at like 9. I was like, 'it's rush hour.'

THERAPIST: Weird.

CLIENT: Yeah, so actually I had a moment on the train, I was like I kind of get those people that don't leave their houses. Like I kind of get them a little bit, you know. Because it was scary, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it was really scary and you were right there in Hamden. And so, that was kind of a real emotional day, I think. And I was trying to tell her about that. It was like now I don't have the subway and that's like being like impacting because it was like empty. It looked like "tumbleweed" might have been the word. It looked a little like Starbucks bags of tumbleweeds, just sort of like, the wild west.

CLIENT: It's so strange to see that part of the city empty because of course, it's never really empty. Yeah. So I think I was trying to tell her that. And then we talked again on Friday.

THERAPIST: But it's interesting. I mean, tumbleweed might not be a word you use very often, but also describing in a very emotional experience is also something that you kind of stayed away from. So both things are new talking about your feelings and what it's like to question whether you should be out there and you know, come up from underground and see something totally different that what you'd be expecting.

CLIENT: And I remember I was trying to explain to her the feeling of like because I felt like it was like, well you know, like my part today is like take the city back for myself. I have to like I would have never thought twice to ride the subway before. It's just the subway. Everyone rides the subway. [00:21:02]

THERAPIST: And so riding the subway in an act of "I'm going to do something normal" even though it feels very abnormal.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, yeah. And that's what I did I think that's what I was talking about with her. Which is like totally because also part of my worry is if I tell her this kind of stuff it's like she's just going to worry incessantly, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because she's a huge worrier. But I kind of told her, I'm not going to stop living my life, like, shitty things happen. I can be careful to a point and I don't walk down dark alleys at 4 in the morning, you know? But beyond that, like, I don't know. So yeah. And so she called me about the lockdown and I did not tell her about the bomb that was like near my house. The deadly, deadly bomb. But I did tell her like, I went to the bar and like we were watching I told her about, like we were watching the we went to the a bar and we watched President Obama's address after they caught the guy. We watched it all together and we call clapped and it was like this weird community feeling. I told her about that, too. Which I don't think -

THERAPIST: You were letting her giving her windows into what your daily life is like in a way that you haven't before. You were always very you kind of described talking to her carefully about what you let her know and not know?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: These very real, real windows into daily life and relationships you have to the city and to the people.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's like, it's a good thing because she's not been totally like flipping out and calling me every five minutes which is, I guess that was my expectation. I was like, if I start telling her all this crazy shit, she's going to want to talk to me every 10 minutes and I just didn't want to do that. But it seems like that's not the case which is surprising to me. Yeah, I'm definitely surprised by her. I don't know maybe she's stronger than I thought. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Letting there be room for people to respond, how they respond rather than assuming that people are going to have a particular response and then dictating what you share with them or how you share something based on what you assume their response is going to be. I think you're giving yourself the opportunity to have different types of interactions with people because you're not necessarily predicting that they're going to respond one particular way. Let her have her response and (unclear) is different than you imagined.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think I've been doing similar things with my brother, as well, my older brother. So that's been a little bit unusual, too. I did talk to him about, like the bomb, and I actually was able to open up more to him. Like, 'oh, you know, yeah, this is kind of scary.' Like, I think I said that. I didn't say that to my mom. I said, "we're all scared." But to my brother, I said, "I'm scared." [00:24:04]

THERAPIST: What's that difference for you?

CLIENT: Well, I don't know. I think I guess the latter is much more personal, right? It's like I am scared, even if these people aren't. Like, I'm still scared. So, I don't know. Yeah. That feels a lot more personal to me than like, oh yeah, everyone's like locked down and nobody's leaving their houses because they're all scared of getting shot or something." That seems different.

THERAPIST: How do you feel today in terms of your safety and being out and about?

CLIENT: Oh yeah, no. I think I feel good. I mean my first reaction on Friday was like, I'm going out. Because I'd been in all day, first of all. But also because I don't know I feel like it's a process of like for me it's like I actually compared it to my car got broken into last year or something and I remember I had to drive to work that morning and I felt like, 'oh, my God, somebody's been in this seat, like somebody was actually sitting where I'm sitting right now. This is so I almost feel like dirty and -

THERAPIST: Violated.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. Because my car's also like, you know how I told you like my room was like it's the same with my car. Like it's very much my personal space. And I actually kind of felt like that, like I had to re-inhabit my car after that happened. And it's almost like doing the same thing, but much more obviously much more.

THERAPIST: Like take back your city?

CLIENT: Yeah. So I've been going out a lot and going on walks and stuff, so. But I've also it's been really wonderful to be a part of this community which is like a new thing for me, like I'm really going for like they do it every other week so it's like two or three times, I don't know. But it's just like, it's a really I don't know, it's a great space to like talk about what I don't know how to explain it. (Laughs) It's just a really healing space I think. So that's been really helpful I think. And singing was really helpful, too. Like I sang for the last one. And that was a little bit that was really different, actually. But I don't know.

THERAPIST: I think you described it as scary.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was scary. Yeah, it's scary because when I was little I sang some song at a wedding or something. I think I I don't know if that's what it was. And some guy came up to me and was like, "oh, my gosh, you sounded so great. You have such a beautiful voice. You missed that one note, but everything else was so beautiful." Well, of course, I was horrified to sing in front of everyone. But I still really like to sing, like in the car which is why it became my personal space I think. And so in college I was like I really enjoy singing but I'm scared to do it. Maybe I'll take lessons. So I did. And I remember it taking like two months to feel comfortable to be able to sing in front of just my teacher. But I did, finally, and she was like, 'you have a really pretty voice.' And I tried to audition for things and I would inevitably suck because I was horrified

THERAPIST: You were anxious.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And I mean I'd be like it sounded like awful. (Laughs) But then actually, my last semester of college I I don't remember what it was I think I sang for an audition or something and I was like, 'I sounded good.' Like finally I was over this. So then I did acapella here. But it was like this huge, long process of getting over it. Because I really like singing. I just sucked at it because I was nervous about it. And so it was almost like sharing that whole thing which is like really exposing, but also I think that was also something I think for me with singing is that it's so personal. It's like letting somebody in on like my feelings and it's just so (cross talk). [00:28:16]

THERAPIST: (Cross talk) [00:28:16]

CLIENT: Yeah. But I think it was a safe space to do it in.

THERAPIST: That sounds like a really nice community that you found.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And so hopefully I'll keep doing that.

THERAPIST: Well, you probably have some say in it.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And that's actually another reason I wanted to stay was like I finally found this beautiful thing I want to be a part of so, I don't know, that was another factor in the decision. But anyway, I guess -

THERAPIST: It sounds like you're really heading into a nice what can be a really nice part of your life. A nice phase, where you've settled, you've found this community that you have control over whether it stays a part of your life. You've found a job that you're good at and that you like and you really enjoy being a scribe and sounds like being able to be challenged to do it in a slightly new way.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I actually feel really great about the school, too, Because the principal is coming into town and she is like, 'hey, I'd love to meet with you, I'd like to hear more about what you've done.' And I was like, 'whoa.'

THERAPIST: That's a very different experience.

CLIENT: Like, why are you interested in my personal life? But in a good way, you know?

THERAPIST: So you switched from Waterford to New Haven, they're switching schools as well?

CLIENT: Same school.

THERAPIST: Same school but different (unclear)

CLIENT: So I told them I said I because this is another reason this is the other thing I wanted to tell you, too, was like basically, she asked me what I wanted to do and usually I'd be like, 'well, I guess I could do full time, but in the fall ', basically I told her exactly what I wanted to do. I was like, 'look, I want to be full time for the summer but I also want to be like part time maybe like three-quarter time in the fall so that I can focus on my studies. She was like, 'that sounds great.' (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, that worked really nice.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so that's why the switch from one place to another to accommodate that.

CLIENT: Well, also they don't actually have a program right now at Waterford, so I'd be starting for them, so it would be like I'd be there for a couple of weeks and then I'd start training.

THERAPIST: (Unclear) opportunity.

CLIENT: Yeah. So that'll be new. But yeah, hopefully, I'll -

THERAPIST: Usually enjoy a challenge in learning new things.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You've talked about feeling kind of invigorated by that in the past.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It's exciting. Yeah, I guess I started thinking about maybe what happened with the other company and maybe it was like personally I didn't tell them what I wanted and I resented them for a long time.

THERAPIST: For not knowing what you wanted.

CLIENT: So hopefully, I mean like personal relationships, right? Except job version -

THERAPIST: There's a lot of overlap in how you deal with other people.

CLIENT: Yeah. So hopefully this might be might work out a little differently.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, you really have an opportunity and you've started on the right foot by being able to express what it is you want and getting such a nice response.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Not only were they interested in what you want but they were able to accommodate it and willing to accommodate it and having somebody be interested in meeting you face to face and she'll be here and you have a lot of opportunity to get this going in a different way and not repeat the same pattern that got in the way last time which you know, probably wasn't 100% your doing, but maybe there was some part that you did play in how that -

CLIENT: Yeah. So, hopefully it will be okay. So yeah, I don't know, I guess -

[00:32:07]

THERAPIST: So let's spend a little bit of time thinking about how to keep tabs on yourself and how to know whether you want to come back because certainly the door is open if you want to find your way back here. You just call me and we'll figure out a space. But maybe thinking a little bit about how did you know that that's what you wanted or if you wanted that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, that would be really helpful.

THERAPIST: How can you keep tabs on yourself?

CLIENT: I don't know. Well, one of the things I noticed is that I felt significantly happier since I've been coming here. (Laugh)

THERAPIST: That's nice.

CLIENT: Yeah. For a variety of reasons but maybe if I started to feel really sad again, like when I was first coming here it was like really unbearable. So maybe -

THERAPIST: And you don't want to get to that space again. You don't have to wait until it's totally unbearable.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I guess that that would be one I don't know.

THERAPIST: It would be just a way of finding a way of check in with yourself to see what you're feeling and you're going to have bad days and feel sad sometimes and that's part of normal human reaction to things that happen in life. But maybe making sure that there is a space somewhere in your day or your week to kind of check in and see, 'how do I feel, kind of, in general?' So that you can distinguish between the difference of having a really crappy day where you just feel sad because something sad happened, or you feel really angry because something infuriating happened versus, in general, "I'm feeling kind of sad these days." And if you notice that you're having that in general "I'm feeling kind of sad," you'll want to watch that because I don't want you to be in that place where it feels, 'this is unbearable and I'm miserable' and then be sitting with that for a long time. You know, checking in with yourself regularly enough to know if you're generally okay but having a bad day versus not feeling okay and something is amiss.

CLIENT: Yeah. I actually do quite a bit of reflection on Sundays anyway because I go to church and then -

THERAPIST: That's a great time to sit down yeah, that kind of fits in with where your week is.

CLIENT: Yeah. Sunday's usually turn into existential angst. (Laughs) In a good way. So yeah, that would be good.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So that kind of fits right in to where you are, so kind of just noticing. One of the differences I've seen in you is anger was a big piece for you. You really disliked feeling angry and you felt very badly when you exploded. And I remember one of the things that has stood out for me is when you first came in you said, "I'm not an angry person, yet I seem to be really angry."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it felt so disconnected for you.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And I think that's very different. It doesn't seem like you haven't had (unclear) with your friends.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yes, you've had relationships that have had problems and relationships that have fizzled out but it doesn't seem like you're having these big dramatic fights with people anymore in the same way.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It sounds like conversations with your mom have gone differently than they've been going and that was a place where your anger came out a lot.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It seems like that's sort of a red flag for you. You started to notice that you're feeling really angry about things that you don't think match up with what typically makes you angry or what you expect. That seems like a difference.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I hadn't thought about that in a while. I mean except I've kind of been irrationally angry at Julia still, but I kind of understand where that's coming from.

THERAPIST: But you're not blowing up at her.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Anger is another one of those emotions. It's a normal, human emotion, just like being sad is. There's nothing wrong in itself with being angry.

But when it felt so disconnected from what you expected to be feeling, that was sort of the red flag that something's going on here because you were surprised by your response. It makes sense why you're a little bit mad at her. She's doing things that don't jive with your values and that feels uncomfortable and that makes sense and you know, whether it's fair or not doesn't matter so much. You know why you're angry with her. She's not acting the way you hoped she would.

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah. I guess that's really helpful. I don't know how to act.

THERAPIST: Are there things that you wish that we had talked about or covered in our time together that we skipped?

CLIENT: One thing that kind of sticks out to me I had been thinking about it before for the past couple of days was stuff like having to do with like my body image and how awful it is. But I think part of that is that I wasn't I don't know that I'm still totally ready to talk about it, like extremely super in depth. Because it feels like really, really awful still. You know, like it just feels like -

THERAPIST: A big thing. I know we sort of started talking about that and then it got lost somewhere. [00:37:38]

CLIENT: But even that was like really helpful. Like, I still I've been thinking about like little things that I can do. Like you said, I don't know that's really, really stuck with me like think about uses for your body as opposed to what it looks like. And I think that was like a large reason I decided to try skiing and ended up loving it and I've, as of yesterday, I'm starting to try to run again which is kind of a problem because my knees suck and but I'm going to try anyway and if I start hurting I'll slow down and try it again and kind of, I don't know, find more uses then excuses. (Laughs). That rhythms, huh? So, even that has just been really helpful, but -

THERAPIST: Is there something that would have made it easier to talk about it more or keep it more present as part of our conversation?

CLIENT: I don't know, I guess I don't really see that there's I guess in my head like this is part of the problem, right? But I sort of feel like that there's really not much to talk about because I am aware that it is unhealthy and so I should just lose weight. (Laughs) So like end of conversation like, in my head at least like there's not much more to it than that. But I don't know I guess there are like so what I'm saying is I don't think that I'm totally irrational in thinking that like and feeling bad about the way I look. Like if I was obsessed with the way my nose looked or something, like I have a tiny bump and I don't really care, because my glasses hide it anyway, so like stuff like that I don't necessarily care about so much. So I don't know if that's if that answers the question. But, I don't know, I guess, I have noticed that I have been trying new stuff, more than just new wording too, like I've been walking more which is nice and -

THERAPIST: Yes, so those are certainly steps you've been taking to feel it sounds like you don't feel like you really have permission to talk about your discomfort with your body in therapy because you see it as not logical that you don't feel good about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I can see where you're coming from. I think I disagree. And I say this because to me I think it's about how deep that goes. The level of shame that you feel about your body. I mean that seems stronger to me for the little that we did talk about it than what feels appropriate. I don't think you need to feel ashamed no matter what size your body is. Shame to me seems like a really deep, and unhappy, and unnecessary feeling with regard to body weight or shape. Shame to me feels like an emotion that's appropriate when someone's done something wrong, something that goes against their moral values, their beliefs, their morals and weight is not a moral issue. [00:40:54]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess it makes sense though. Because growing up, my dad would say really awful things about the way that I looked all the time. And so -

THERAPIST: It feels unfair to me.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And so I mean I was angry about like towards him about that, too, at him. And so I think like maybe I'm just starting to unpack it or something. I mean he used to say things like, "you know, you're so fat and ugly like you're never going to find anybody to love you." To me that's like well first of all, obviously that's just awful, right? But and so I know like on a certain level like it's wrong, but it still made me feel bad.

THERAPIST: Of course it did.

CLIENT: So it's almost like, like even I remember when I was singing I have an awful memory and don't usually remember stuff like that.

THERAPIST: But that was a really impactful statement.

CLIENT: Yeah,

THERAPIST: Because underneath, what feels so horrible about that statement to me is that your dad connected two things that aren't connected. Whether or not you're lovable to your size. And those two things to me should not be connected.

CLIENT: I actually do now, even I know it's irrational, but I still kind of feel that way, like I definitely feel like -

THERAPIST: And to me that's when I said I think I disagree with what you said about, 'maybe I should, maybe it's appropriate that I feel badly.' That that's the piece that catches me, because I don't to me it seems unrelated. You shouldn't have to feel badly about that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That I want it not to be connected whether or not there is some part of your head or heart that what he believes is true. Value is not determined by your weight and whether or not you're a lovable person is not determined by your weight.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean and I think part of that is also why I focused on school so much and (unclear) got really in my head and which in the end is a good thing, but like -

THERAPIST: Be careful.

CLIENT: I don't know maybe I'm not there yet. (Laughs) Maybe -

THERAPIST: School felt more in your control.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It felt like a more connected link. If I work hard I can be really successful at this.

CLIENT: Right, right. Yeah. And it just came easier to me, too. Like, I'm kind of a klutz, too. So, I don't know, maybe that's something that maybe if I come back I mean I do think that I would want to come back and check in in maybe like six months or a year, something like that. I might be especially with the steps that I'm taking now and maybe if I continue that might be a better place to talk about that.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I don't know. [00:43:50]

THERAPIST: That sounds reasonable. So would you like to leave it just open and you'll call me when you feel like you want to come back in or if you want to come back in? Or do you want to set up something six months from now so it's on the calendar?

CLIENT: I think open would be better just because I don't know, I feel like I'm -

THERAPIST: Good where you are.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm getting a little bit better at like listening to myself and being like, 'I need this now. I need to go work out. I need to sleep. Or I need to talk to Angela about something I said.

THERAPIST: And hearing your own voice.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And this sort of give you another opportunity to do that.

CLIENT: That's okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah and make a commitment to yourself to do that, to kind of listen to your voice and pay attention to what's it's saying.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If she says, "call" call.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And the other thing you should know is that I'd be more than happy and honored to work with you again in the future. But if you also feel like working with a different therapist might allow you to touch upon the things that you didn't touch upon with me and I do think that that is part of the dynamic of what gets talked about, what things are like you know. I don't believe that therapists are blank slates, as hard as someone might try to be one. If you feel like working with somebody else would be useful to you to give you kind of a different experience, that's okay. That's not cheating.

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: If that would be useful to you.

CLIENT: Yeah and I know, actually so -

THERAPIST: You can do that as well.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think one of the things in college was like I only would go for a couple of sessions because they'd put me with somebody new and it would be like start all over again and so I don't know that that's -

THERAPIST: You've gotten through the new experience thing.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I don't know. So hopefully, if you have openings -

THERAPIST: I always try my hardest before a client calls to try to find space. And that might mean that we need to be flexible or (unclear) should you call it probably won't have to be next week I really do try to make sure that I can find a way to fit you in and it usually works out and I have no plans to be anyplace but in my office.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Okay.

THERAPIST: So I will be here in six months and in a year I have a five-year lease.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Oh, great. I hope it starts in September.

THERAPIST: (Laughs) I think October.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's so weird. I guess another thing I wanted to say was thank you a lot. You really, I don't know you really helped me a lot.

THERAPIST: I'm so glad.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, I don't know you were just really, really great.

THERAPIST: Well, I appreciate that and I'm really honored that I was a certain part of your journey in your process. You worked really hard. You were very brave and without that coming in here doesn't get you anything. It's what you put into it.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: I wish you all the best.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: I will hear from you when I hear from you.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: You just keep doing what you're doing. You worked really hard and were really honest with yourself and I think that's what has allowed you to make a lot of changes and take some of the steps that you've taken.

CLIENT: Yeah. Hopefully I can keep doing it without your help because you were so helpful.

THERAPIST: It's all inside your head.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That stuff is all there.

CLIENT: I hope you don't mind if I keep using, "what would Dr. Pritchard (sp?) say?

THERAPIST: Go ahead. Absolutely. That's part of it. You know I think, being as you internalized that stuff and have the conversations that we have and be able to have them with yourself, that's I mean, that's my wish that you're able to take some of this stuff with you. It's not copyrighted.

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: The goal is not for me to be necessarily a part of your life forever, it's for you to internalize the stuff that you've taken from our sessions.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That's why I do this.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: You're very welcome. I will hear from you when I hear from you.

CLIENT: I still -

THERAPIST: Yes, you owe me money.

CLIENT: Right for two.

THERAPIST: Okay.

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