TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in.

(Background noise)

CLIENT: So it's a nice day today.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Do people get bothered by, like, patterns? Like, routines? [00:03:05]

THERAPIST: Patterns or...?

CLIENT: Or routines.

(Silence)

CLIENT: I just thought I guess I'll see my mom later today and I would say, "Oh, no. I don't want to do that." (Laughter) I just was wondering why I felt that way. I guess because last Monday felt like d�j� vu because, [you know] (ph) walking back from here, and it was sunny. Just like last Monday. (Laughter) And then, you know, everything happened. But, yeah.

When I got home, my mom was calling (ph) and coming over with food. And I was just like, "I'm so sick of that. I don't want that." And I knew the afternoon wouldn't turn out so well. But, I mean, nothing happened, and yet I'm like, "Oh, well. I don't like that." (Laughter)

THERAPIST: You were sick of...?

CLIENT: Just that pattern. Like, I don't know what. It was just a sensation, you know, just a feeling that she's going to come over with food, and I'm going to feel burdened to eat and, like, see her. (Pause) And I'm going to feel bad because, like well, I just thought that, you know, she stays all by herself, and, you know, she's probably looking for company and for conversation. And I can't really do that because I'm working, and I'm also busy. [I don't know] (ph). [00:05:03]

I just feel embarrassed about my mom when it comes to, like, Chris (sp?). I don't like the idea of the two of them together. So I just kind of internalize this without really questioning it and trying to change it. (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: You feel embarrassed about your mother with Chris (sp?)?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like, when she's in the room with him. Like, it's so weird. (Laughter) Like, they're both sitting in the same room, but he's no his laptop, working, his back to her. She has her back to him, and she's on another laptop, watching soaps. He has headphones on, and then, you know, he stays that way for a few hours, and then he leaves. (Laughter) And I'm in the other room, looking. I just feel weird, you know? I feel bad that I cannot sit across from her at a dinner table or something and have a conversation.

THERAPIST: You can't do that because...?

CLIENT: I don't know why. Well, first of all, we don't have a dinner table. (Laughter) I don't know why I can't do that. (Pause) I like it more when she comes on days where Chris (sp?) is not around. Not often but, like, occasionally or when he's not around, and she comes, we just stand in the kitchen and eat, and that's much more preferable than her coming when he's around. [00:07:20]

I guess yeah. Like, that I just internalize it so much that, you know, he doesn't like my mom. He doesn't think too much of her, and she's, you know, an embarrassment or whatever. You know, like, she shouldn't come here when he's here, you know?

THERAPIST: What are you embarrassed by about her?

CLIENT: I don't know. I just feel like he's dismissive of her. Like, so many things. (Pause) For the longest time, I accepted what he said as the truth, you know, and only recently am I, like, questioning. Like, he would just the past year, he kept saying, "I'm getting old. I have to think about marriage and a child. It'll be too late otherwise. All my friends, you know, half of them don't have children, but the other half " it's not really that many. It's, like, just a few people, they have children. And he's like, "Well, this guy has two kids, and he's working, and all that."

And then, like, this was Monday. And I was just like I was just kind of questioning that logic about and then I just said to him, you know, "People you know I mean, all you guys are, like, you know, have always got everything right. I know you guys come from good families. You didn't have any detours or anything. You just followed this pattern. And now you have jobs and everything. I'm kind of not like that." (Laughter) "I don't know if I can feel the same way about family that you can, you know. And like, I'm not on a track. So I cannot it doesn't make sense to me when you say, 'Oh, you know, at 30, you should do this. At 35, you should do this. At 40, you should do this.' Like, life doesn't pan out that way, I feel like. You don't know what's going to happen or, like, (pause) yeah, you know." [Am I] (ph) making any sense? (Laughter) [00:09:53]

THERAPIST: [Do you feel at this moment you were] (ph)?

CLIENT: I don't know. I thought I was losing track of (pause) what I was saying. But, yeah, you know, like, (pause) I mean, I would love to be on a track. I don't know. This is my internal conflicts with, you know, like, structure. Grounding. I think I would love it, but then I have it, and, like, oh God, it's oppressive (ph). (Laughter) I don't know.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like when you're saying, "Am I making sense?" do you feel like you're moving away from the topic of feeling embarrassed by your mom?

CLIENT: I just feel disjointed (ph), and I felt really weird. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: I don't know. (Laughter) But yeah. (Pause) I guess this probably is related to that. I just was trying to understand, like, how much of an authority Chris (sp?) seems to be to me, and how, like, it's slowly changing right now. And I'm just wondering is it for good or for worse. (Chuckles) For better or for worse. But, yeah. [00:11:33]

Like, earlier, I would be embarrassed about this, that I'm not on a track, and I don't think like him. I mean, I want to think like him, but for some reason, I cannot. You know, by this time, one should have a child and a family. But I guess I may not feel embarrassed about that, but I certainly feel embarrassed about my mom, I guess. (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: About your relationship to her, or about who she is as a person?

CLIENT: I don't know. Just, like, her coming over with lunch, you know. I mean, it's just so weird. Like, how do they expect to be a family man when he can't even (pause), you know, put aside what he's doing and (pause) for lunch, you know? I mean, doesn't that sort of strike you as odd? Like, the three of us in two separate rooms, on three separate computers, watching our shows during lunch. (Pause) No? I mean, is that a familiar portrait of, like, family sort of thing?

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like it is for you.

CLIENT: Well, would it be for any other family? You don't think that's weird? (Laughter) Three different people looking at three different computer screens at lunchtime? [00:13:25]

THERAPIST: Do you think it feels better for you to call it weird than to call it something you don't want?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, you clearly don't want it, but it seems like you want to categorize it as weird more than you want to say, "I don't know if other people do this, but I don't want this for myself."

CLIENT: I don't know. (Laughter) It's hard for me to understand at this stage. But I could say it's both weird and something I don't want. I guess I'm afraid of saying that it's not what I want.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughter) Because I guess I feel like, again, I have no choice. This is what I have. (Laughter) (Pause) I guess I feel like I don't have the power to change it, you know? (Pause) I feel like it's best not to see each other than to see each other like this, you know? Don't you think? Like, would you rather see a person when you had time for them and you could sit down across from them and say, "How are you?" You know, and take some interest, if not 100 percent interest. Than to see them and like, "Hello," open the door for them, and just show them the seat. And then, you know, you heat your food in the microwave. They heat their food in the microwave. Then you just [I don't know] (ph). And then they're getting to ready to leave. They say, "Bye." You say, "Bye." (Laughter) I mean, if you're looking for human interaction, you know. [00:15:25]

(Silence)

CLIENT: [You know what I mean] (ph)? So that's what I keep, like, feeling, but not really articulating and thinking and saying out loud that I don't think he's a family person. And I feel like how can you ask for marriage and child when you're, you know, so he can't even spare 15 minutes for lunch, you know? (Sighs) I guess I'm judging him harshly, but I feel that's what I feel. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Well, lots of families function that way, but that's not the kind of family you want.

CLIENT: Well, it just keeps adding up and it's not even adding up anymore. It's like it's a solid wall in my head, that he doesn't like my mom or, like, my mom and him should have the least amount of interaction possible just to spare me the humiliation. And...

THERAPIST: What is humiliating?

CLIENT: I don't know. It just feels humiliating.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm not understanding that piece of it. Why three people doing their separate things is humiliating. [

CLIENT: I don't know. It feels humiliating to me. (Laughter) I don't know. I just feel bad that, you know, she comes with food and, like, I don't know, and she's standing outside the door. We don't have a bell, so she calls on the cell phone. And then I go and open the door for her. Like, it's just a few minutes, and then that's it. [00:17:42]

THERAPIST: So do you feel like Chris (sp?) is snubbing her?

CLIENT: No. He's not even aware. Like, she's not even (pause) registering. Like, her presence isn't even registered. And I feel bad, now that I think about it. How would you like to be treated that way? (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Treated, in terms of...?

CLIENT: You come with food. I open the door. And then I just let you do whatever you're doing. And then you have to come to my room and say, "I'm leaving now." And I say, "Okay, bye."

THERAPIST: And you're saying that that happens with you or that happens with Chris?

CLIENT: Well, both of us. Me trying to be like him I guess, you know.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you're ignoring her?

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I mean, that's how you lose respect for someone, right? When you treat them like this? (Pause) I don't know why I feel like human interaction should be meaningful. Or for me, at least, they should be meaningful. They shouldn't just be like they shouldn't treat people like they were computer screens, and they just kind of (pause) look at them, and then don't even register their presence, you know?

THERAPIST: Do you feel like Chris (sp?) likes your mother?

CLIENT: Oh, I know he doesn't. Well, he doesn't even register her. Like, it's not something he sat down and said. "Oh, I like this person." [Is it important who you like] (ph)? It's not even important, you know. (Pause) His cousin was visiting this weekend. It was weird because at first, I thought I would want to find another place to stay while he was here, but I didn't. Anyway, so we went out to dinner, all of us. His fianc� and him and Chris (sp?) and me. And, like, Chris (sp?) and I ordered our, like, lavishly. (Laughter) Because I thought, you know, we would be paying. But then when the bill came, these guys, they took the bill. [00:20:36]

And I was just so, like, offended, you know. Like, in the sense that it's Chris's (sp?) younger brother. And that guy was like, "Oh, no. We had our engagement, you guys weren't there, so we'll pay." And Chris (sp?) didn't even put up a fight. And I was like I just really didn't like that. I was like, I really wish he would have been, like, the older brother, you know. Like, I don't know what the adjective is, but the closest I can come to it is avuncular (ph). You know, like, I wanted him to step up and be warm and be, like, you know, welcoming and embracing. He's not like that at all, and it just disappoints me. Every time. It's like, why can't I learn this lesson, you know? That he's not like that. Why should I expect him to be like that? But it just I just feel weird.

(Silence)

And he wouldn't pick him up from the airport. Well, granted, it was Friday night and I mean, they had caught the guy by then, and he was coming around 12:00 or something, in the night. I just wonder, you know. Like, there are people who like their families. And actually, Chris (sp?) has a family that is likeable, you know. And his experience, like, has not been, like, (pause), you know, bad. So, like, why he and what makes him not [warm to] (ph) more people. Because my experience has been bad, and I feel like if it started to talk about it, I guess it would come up that I don't trust people and this and that, but I still, like, really crave human interaction, you know? So it feels weird that like, I feel bad when I see that I'm, like, basically, like, destroying or not respecting people. (Laughter) [00:23:16]

And since I look up to Chris (sp?), I feel like, you know, why aren't you doing it this way? I think this is the right way to do it. Because even though I know that there's, like, more than one way to be right. (Laughter) So, I don't know. It's just something that I feel like it bothers me, but I can't really do anything about it. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Does he know you feel that way?

CLIENT: Yeah. And he said, like, his cousin came back to pick up his stuff, and Chris (sp?) dropped them off somewhere in the city. And he was like, "I did that because you made me feel so bad about not paying for dinner." (Laughter) So, like, okay. That doesn't really take away the fact that you didn't pay for dinner. (Laughter) You know?

THERAPIST: Well, you described also him borrowing pretty large sums of money from you early in the relationship. It seems similar, in some ways.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, like, you know, he (inaudible 24:39) from people.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "You give me a free meal, great. Cool. You know, I need money. Great, thanks."

CLIENT: But I love getting free stuff. I'm, like, the most miserly person he'll ever meet. (Laughter) But that makes me feel bad, you know? And people pay for me all the time, and that makes me feel bad, but I don't know, do I have double standards? (Laughter) I don't want him to be, like, better than me.

(Silence)

CLIENT: You know, it's just, like, (pause) I don't know. (Pause) I don't know what it was, but I don't know if it was about money. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: I'm sorry. You don't know if which is about money? [00:27:04]

CLIENT: That incident of him not paying. I feel like that was a chance for us to show we're, you know, kind and nice, and we'll take care of you, you know, who are younger to us or at least to Chris (sp?), you know. And you've come to our city and, you know, we'll treat you. I guess I was feeling yeah, so here's the double standard, I guess. I feel like Chris (sp?) has had a better life than me, or at least a better childhood. So he should reflect that in his current behavior. Like, he should be more generous.

I may not feel that way. I may not have the same standard imposed on myself, that I should be generous. And I cut myself slack because, you know, I'm closer to me than to Chris (sp?) (laughter), so I feel like I guess I cuddle myself when I think, "You know, you had a hard childhood. You didn't know what love was. It's okay if you don't feel generous." But I try not to be [the slacks] (ph) with myself. I try to tell myself I should be generous and this and that. Maybe I don't do that well with this, but still, that's what I mean, I guess. And I was wondering, do I have double standards for Chris (sp?). I guess I do and I want him to be better than me, you know, in his human interaction. (Pause) But it's not like that, is it? Like, people who have an average, you know, normal childhood, they don't necessarily are kinder than those who don't have a normal childhood. [00:29:14]

THERAPIST: I don't even know what a normal childhood is.

CLIENT: You know what I mean. Like, parents are not divorced and, you know. Compared to mine, you know. (Chuckles) Yeah.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Like, this morning, he was saying we walked together and we saw this guy waving back to his wife in the window. And Chris (sp?) was like, "I used to do that when I was a child, with my mom. And I would stand in the balcony and wave to my dad, who was going off to work every morning. Like, we stood there until he disappeared from sight, and that was, like, it took ten minutes or whatever." And I was like, yeah, that's a nice memory, but I couldn't wait for my dad to get out, you know, (laughter) when he was around, you know.

THERAPIST: Wait. So Chris (sp?) I'm confused. Chris (sp?) was saying that about...

CLIENT: His dad, yes. His childhood. So...

THERAPIST: You go very often into this quantitative mood about seeing things. "Well, they had a better childhood, and you had a worse." It's very quantitative. There's no quality to it, when you think this way. It's like on this scale of, you know, his childhood was eight and my childhood was two. (Laughter)

CLIENT: I don't know what you mean by quantitative.

THERAPIST: Well, "I don't know what a normal childhood is. Like, his childhood was better than mine." I don't think in terms of that, but I understand that you do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Better and worse. Then, look, your childhood was awful. So I appreciate that and I don't want to minimize that, but it does seem like it's on a scale of better and worse, and people who have parents together are better, I guess. I mean, it gets boiled down and reduced.

CLIENT: Yeah. What's an alternative way of thinking?

THERAPIST: People's families are all different from each other. [00:31:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. That's true. That's also true. (Laughter) I guess what you're saying is I'm comparing myself to him.

THERAPIST: Yes, that's part of it. And the other part of what I'm saying is there's a way in which you develop a calculus about how [do you value] (ph) better and worse. If you're better off, you should do this. If you're worse off, you should do this.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess when I do that, I make myself unhappy. Is that what you're saying?

THERAPIST: I wasn't necessarily saying that I was more making an observation about how you think. You're taking a step further in terms of what the results of that are.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I don't I guess I get into this mode, and maybe, like, now, it's hard for me to imagine thinking differently? Maybe if I was someone other than Chris (sp?) in that scenario. Like, just a friend (inaudible 33:12).

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like I mean, you're talking about feeling embarrassed for your mother, but it sounds like you're embarrassed about him too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, like, you sitting at this dinner, and he's just like, "Oh, great. You can pay."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You found it embarrassing.

CLIENT: Yeah, I found it embarrassing for him. Like, he embarrassed me.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Yeah, I didn't like that. The more I think about it, the more I hate it. (Laughter) Because, like, they were a couple. We were a couple. It felt like they were (pause), by some standard, more legitimate than us, because they're engaged and we're not. And his parents are, like, you know, they really want us to get married, and they've been saying that for years now. And, you know, like, on the verge of breaking up. (Laughter) You know. But these other people, you know, they met online and, like, immediately they got engaged. Their families got involved, and they went back to Nepal, and they got engaged. And that girl is doing a PhD. And I just feel so weird about that, you know. I feel like so not normal, you know? I feel like Nepalese have a way of, like, psyching me out, you know, traditional Nepalese. They have a way of making me feel less (laughter) than normal, you know. She has a family and, you know, she's normal, and she has absolutely no hang-ups. She has no complexes, you know. [00:35:27]

(Silence)

CLIENT: I remember being that pure. I don't think I was ever that pure. Like, maybe until I was six, I was that pure. And then my dad came and consciousness happened and then all those complexes happened. (Laughter) So I just felt weird. Like, you know, them as a couple, they paid for us, and they were just, you know, like, children, you know. And I feel like Chris (sp?) and I lost our chance of being something in that scenario. Like, being together and being kind together and being generous.

THERAPIST: How do you mean lost your chance? When did you have that chance?

CLIENT: When the bill came.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. I thought you were referring to something much earlier in your relationship.

CLIENT: No. (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: Kind of like your relationship had a chance early on to be something different, but it didn't become that. And now, this is what you have.

CLIENT: I know what you're trying to say. That things change. People change, and your thinking also can change. And it has. And I think we've rescued some bits of our relationship. You know, we're living together for the first time, and our intimacy is better. (Sighs) And I'm less of a child, and I don't throw as many tantrums. (Laughter) So yeah, I mean, people thinking can change. [00:37:42]

I shouldn't think we lost our chance. But, like, in that scenario, it just felt like it was our chance to be all that. Of course, I'm the only stupid idiot thinking all these things. (Laughter) Whereas other people are just, like, their minds are so much more clear and junk free, and they're just, you know, scientists. And they're all, like, "Here's a meal. We have to pay. Who's going to pay?" You know, [that's all] (ph). (Laughter) So it's hard, they (ph) think.

THERAPIST: Why do you say you're being an idiot?

CLIENT: Well, I'm just, like, all this baggage and, like, all this analysis and over analysis for just one small moment, which no one is thinking about.

THERAPIST: It might register on some level with his cousin.

CLIENT: I doubt it.

THERAPIST: People create a feeling with other people. You can create the feeling of being taken care of. Create the feeling of not.

CLIENT: Yeah. How would you read it? Do you think I'm overanalyzing it and making myself unhappy?

THERAPIST: Overanalyzing that moment?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That moment seemed symbolic. That moment didn't seem the way you're describing it, is it's part of a larger pattern [of a circle] (ph), not an anomaly. "I'm so surprised Chris (sp?) didn't pay. That's not unlike him."

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: No. what I'm saying is you don't -

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: The reason that you're analyzing it is because it's part of a pattern. It's not an anomaly. It's not, like, "In general, Chris (sp?) is sort of generous and kind and thoughtful. I guess he slipped up that time." You're analyzing that moment as symbolic of a larger picture.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) Do you think I should stop? Just for my own wellbeing.[00:40:00]

THERAPIST: For your own wellbeing. How would that help your wellbeing?

CLIENT: I could spend my energy thinking about other things. (Laughter) And maybe realize that it's not a big deal, you know. It's okay that he didn't pay, you know.

THERAPIST: Except that it is, for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When (ph) you're describing feeling like he doesn't provide an atmosphere of warmth and caring and love, you describe it as kind of cold and deceptive (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, like, he takes care of me.

THERAPIST: In some ways, he does, and you feel that. In other ways, you don't feel he takes care of you. You don't feel like he's interested in your emotions or your emotional life and curious about you. You don't feel those things.

CLIENT: Yeah. Is it true, or am I just making it up?

THERAPIST: I mean, one thing is, I could never know. I could never know because all I know, except for meeting him twice briefly, I only knew him through your experience. So I actually could never know that. You could be making it all up, and I could never know. So therefore, you need to believe in your own experience. [00:42:02]

CLIENT: Yeah, but I contrast my (laughter) I, like, feel so many contrary things all the time. Like I said, I feel like I am being taken care of it. Like, he pays when we go out, you know. But why can't that one extend beyond me? You know, it doesn't even extend to include my mom. It doesn't extend to include his cousins and his family. It's like [he's trying to horde it] (ph) like, in between him and me. And I feel like, you know, we can expand and include more people.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Like, he doesn't even have this need. That's the thing. Like, I have a need to make people like me and, you know, love me and remember me. And so, I do it out of an agenda. I am kind and generous because I have this agenda, you know. (Laughter) He doesn't. He doesn't care if people if he doesn't have friends. And I feel like that's a good lesson to learn from him because, you know, we're essentially lonely and, you know, one has to know how to spend time by himself, herself alone. And that's good, but he just takes it to an extreme, I feel like. You know? And I'm not sure if I want to go that far.

THERAPIST: We should (inaudible 44:19). I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Okay. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. I appreciate it.

END TRANSCRIPT