TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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[0:01:00]

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. [0:01:59]

CLIENT: It's very hot (chuckling). I'm hot. (Pause) How was your weekend?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you. (Pause)

CLIENT: I guess mine wasn't as good (chuckling)? [0:02:58] (Pause) (Sniffing) [0:04:00] I guess I feel like I'm not able to get a resolution on some things? Like, I guess I keep feeling the same things, which means I'm stuck (chuckling). I haven't made progress in certain areas (sighing). (Pause) I mean, I guess when... I mean, there's a certain level of insecurity attached to whatever you do and especially if that is something creative. Once it's done, you won't get over this. [0:04:57] So I guess on Friday I was just feeling a little down and also because of PMS (chuckling). I didn't... don't know how much to believe in that, but just I guess it's true that there are hormonal changes, and you feel more emotional?

But yeah, a friend of mine... or not a friend, a colleague or someone I went to school with, she produced another piece for The Ohio Times. And, I mean, it's a mystery how you can get The Ohio Times to commission work from you (chuckling), but she's kind of very... (Pause) I mean there wasn't much... anything new or much substance in her articles? [0:05:59] Chris is very dismissive of whatever she writes (chuckling, sniffling). She's kind of... she writes more popular stuff. But anyways I guess what I was thinking was that... I was trying to tell myself, I am starting to get success, too. And I might be getting success in smaller places, but people like my content more. They know that there is substance in my (sniffing) pieces. They're much more complex and all that. (Sighing) But it's... like, there's this page for the MSU program, and they had put a link to her piece (chuckling). And I don't know if they knew about mine, but maybe they didn't know. [0:06:58]

But it doesn't... this doesn't matter. Why should this matter so much? But I guess at some level it does. It feels like she has the school stamp of approval, and I don't. Like her contributions matter more because they're more... they're on a much bigger avenue, you know? And I should be critical of this. Like, I should... rationally, I 'm thinking, well, if this is the kind of harsh reality they will show that the bigger the better, then I'm not going to subscribe to that. I'm not... you know? One should (pause) favor content more than how many people have read it (chuckling). [0:07:58] I don't know. But I just was kind of feeling down on Friday.

And there was this reading, and I produced a piece for that. And it wasn't as funny as I thought it was (chuckling), I guess because I was in such a rotten mood that I couldn't be funny. But maybe it was just the content also was also kind of dealing with something not so funny, something serious. But... so I was just beating myself up about that. Also I was thinking, you know, if I was secure, if I just had a little bit more confidence, I wouldn't do this. I would assess that I'm not in a good mood. I should take care of that instead of stretching myself thin and saying, no, every single opportunity I get I have to capitalize on that. [0:08:58] I have to read at this event, this and that. Why? I could have just chilled and hung out or not gone or done something else. I don't know, I just felt like, if I did it and I did a bad job, I'd be hard on myself. But, if I didn't do it, then I'd be hard on myself, too, because let go of something and then it's like, you strategize. You pick and choose what you're going to put your energy in. Instead of doing that, I could have done some research or done some reading (sniffing). I don't know (sighing). I guess this is for later on, I will be... I try not to be hard on myself but just think, okay, so I'm not going to go and read at this. Instead I will stay at home and read something, and that'll... that's okay to do that (chuckling). [0:09:58] (Pause) And that... I was feeling so rotten on Friday (chuckling).

I went to the event, and I went with my mom. And that was another thing that was bothering me. Like, she heard about the event, and she said... and she signed up to go, and she signed up to read. And I just was trying to be careful and tell her, oh, so are you reading in Nepali or English? She was like, well, they should allow me to read in my language. Like, okay. And then I was like, but the crowd is really young. And then she was like, so what (chuckling)? So I was trying to be subtle and tell her, I don't want you there (chuckling)! And then I felt bad about feeling that way. I was like, why shouldn't she be there? Why can't I be generous? [0:10:56] And she went, and she read after me. And then they said, thank you for coming, thank you for reading. But at first I felt like she was encroaching on my space (chuckling). Just so weird, so childish. But then... and then (inaudible at 0:11:20) the whole time I was there I just felt kind of really negative and really antisocial. I was just sitting there playing Angry Birds in the corner (chuckling).

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: It was pathetic. It really was pathetic (chuckling). The whole room... it's kind of a small space, and people are chatting with each other, and I was hearing their banter. And I would have loved to join. There were people my age and interesting people. But I was just so... I don't know, whatever, angry or shy or just antisocial. I just sat and played a video game (chuckling). [0:12:01]

THERAPIST: An Angry Bird video game.

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling). That's one way I... when I get nervous I play that, and... (Pause) And then at the event, oh my God, this guy, he wanted to read a poem in Kurdish. And he was like, should I do it? And everyone was like, yeah, do it. Oh God. As soon as he started, I just started crying right in front of everyone. I don't know if... how many people saw it. My mom certainly did, but that was so embarrassing for me.

THERAPIST: What made you cry?

CLIENT: (Sighing) Just thinking of Victor (sp?) (chuckling) because he's Kurdish. And early on he said, oh, I want you to learn Kurdish. [0:13:02] And I went and got this... the most expensive book I could find. Well, I didn't care about the money, just got a nice book I could learn Kurdish from. And one time I was upset, and he was holding me and was singing this song in Kurdish. And that was to me, like, wow, this is great, and that's when I started falling for him. And it just reminded me, and I was just so upset. I was like, you know, it's been a year. Why am I still thinking about him? And so it was just awful. I just cried Friday night. And Chris (sp?) had gone away for the day, and he came back, and he was... he saw me, and I told him, yeah, this guy was singing in Kurdish (chuckling).

And then the next day, Saturday, I had to go to a friend's dinner somewhere downtown. [0:14:05] So I was walking, and I'm so crazy. You're going to call me crazy (chuckling), but I have been doing this for several months now. I keep looking out for this car that Victor drives. Like, every time a silver car passes by, I'm like... (Pause) (Chuckling) From the corner of my eye I'm trying to look. And sure enough, he was there in his car with his new whatever it is he calls the women he shags (chuckling). And I saw that car and was like, oh, is it...? Oh God, it is him (chuckling)! [0:14:59] It was horrible, like, horrible feeling to see someone you, I guess, love (chuckling) with someone else. So yeah, it's been a terrible weekend, and I'm just like, (sighing) why am I still thinking about him? Why do I still have these feelings? Why am I not doing something to get over it? And then I asked this to Chris, and he's like, ask tomorrow. She... it's her job (laughing) to help you get over him.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: Chris wants that to be my job.

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: I think you do, too. But I can see why Chris would want that.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: Chris wants you to be in love or infatuated with another man? [0:15:59]

CLIENT: (Chuckling) I know [it hurts him] (ph), of course, especially if it's his friend. Talk about being blind. I mean, I can see... I mean, I feel so bad, and how bad would Chris feel if he actually felt anything (chuckling)? Maybe he does feel something, he just is not willing to admit it or show it, stuff. (Pause) I don't know.

THERAPIST: What were you feeling on Sunday when you e-mailed me?

CLIENT: Friday, I e-mailed you Friday.

THERAPIST: It was Friday that you e-mailed me? (Pause)

CLIENT: Friday afternoon, close to 5:00?

THERAPIST: That's when you e-mailed me? [0:16:59] So why did I think it was Sunday? Oh, I also got an e-mail from you on Sunday, though. Did you e-mail...? Yes, you definitely e-mailed me yesterday.

CLIENT: No, I did not (laughing). I was hardly on my computer yesterday.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: We had a picnic (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Now...

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:17:15) a picnic (laughing)?

THERAPIST: No. It was Friday that you e-mailed me?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's weird. Okay (chuckling). I believe you. Uncanny, I thought it was Sunday. Yes, so what were you feeling on Friday?

CLIENT: Well, Friday I was just feeling so down on myself. So I just felt like I didn't... I wasn't... I hadn't made progress, and... at least in terms of work because I thought once I would have success, even... no matter how small, I would feel more secure. [0:17:57] And if I made more progress with my project I'd be more secure. Well, that's rationally true, but what I was feeling on Friday was just not taking into account the progress that I've made in actual facts. So I just wanted my feelings to catch up with life and for me to see and learn from things. And I just was like, why is this (chuckling)...? What do I do when I feel this way? My reaction was just to feel negatively, think negative thoughts, and then push myself to produce this piece, which maybe was... maybe it would work later on for me? Maybe it didn't work (inaudible at 0:18:49) on Friday. I mean, I don't know how... I know that I should be more relaxed and just learn to be. [0:18:59] But I thought that was bad behavior on Friday. Like, falling apart in public and crying, playing Angry Birds instead of talking to people. I mean, I did talk to people when they approached me. I didn't bite their heads off or anything, but still... you know what I mean? (Chuckling) I don't want to be... maybe people do that, maybe it's okay to freak out in public (chuckling). But why am I giving him so much power? He just totally didn't care, totally crushed me, so why am I...? At least in this aspect I should at least be over him, over Victor.

THERAPIST: Well, he certainly emerges when you feel badly about yourself. [0:19:56]

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: You seem to... you certainly talk about him more when you talk about him in the... or when you talk about feeling badly. Like, Friday didn't go very well. And I understand that this person read the poem in Kurdish, but it still seems like he comes to mind more when you're feeling really badly.

CLIENT: Yeah, there could be, but, I mean, I saw him on Saturday. And I don't think I was imagining things.

THERAPIST: No, but it sounded like you were thinking about him on Friday.

CLIENT: Well, that came out of nowhere. Maybe it didn't. (Pause) I don't know. Maybe it is. Maybe it's one of those things I've lost, so...

THERAPIST: Hmm. Things you've lost.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, I feel very yucky about what happened. [0:20:59] Like, it's so nice outside, and it just kills me (chuckling). Like, yesterday we were having a picnic, or we decided... Chris and I decided to have a picnic and invited our friends. And as we were shopping, I just felt like... just so wanting to give up and just was not into it at all (chuckling) because last year right around this time... and last year was very different weather-wise, but still... I mean, what I mean is it was nice in March (chuckling). But Victor would say things like, oh, it's nice. We should... I want to spend a whole weekend with you, go out and do this and see that. And I have to buy furniture, and I want your help. [0:22:03] I mean, that was the tiniest sliver of window when he was feeling positive about us he said those things. And they got under my skin, and I started hoping. But soon after that it was all negative, negative, negative. And he threw me out and all that. So it's like that thing that I was promised just never... I never got it. So now all these nice spring days are just colored by that. I don't know. I mean, I don't want to feel this way, but...

THERAPIST: I was thinking about something much deeper, something about a childhood or a father...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Something that you were promised but you never quite had. But it felt like it was in reach, and yet it feels like two solar systems away. [0:23:02]

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what it is. Like, I sense that he's my... he's like my father in that sense and also just abstractly. Like, I feel like a child who's been punished very severely, and she cannot make up for her bad behavior. Like, the way that he phrased all of this is that, it's my fault, it's me who is not in shape for love. These are his words. And (pause) yeah, it feels very infantilizing. And even theoretically I wonder, do men actually infantilize women? And then they blame the woman for being... for acting like a child. [0:23:57] I mean, this is in my experience that I keep getting called a child. But now I'm starting to wonder, just how much is it my own doing (chuckling)? Maybe here what we are concerned with is my behavior obviously, but (sighing)... yeah. I certainly feel like a child who was promised something in return for good behavior (chuckling), and then she wasn't given that thing that she was promised. And it's very, very far away (chuckling).

THERAPIST: But what you just said about Victor is that you weren't given it because you did something wrong.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm really not wanting to feel that way any more (chuckling). [0:25:02] I really want that to be purged and that narrative to be changed.

THERAPIST: And the woman in the car is your punishment.

CLIENT: Well, she deserves it. She has it all. She is a better woman than I am, so (chuckling)...

THERAPIST: That sounds like an angry bird.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) A very angry bird.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yellow, and the one that when you press it just goes four times as fast (chuckling). (Pause) Yeah, I mean, it feels like a slap in the face and all those clich�s. (Pause) [0:25:59] I don't have it, so I don't get to have love (chuckling). But another thing I was thinking about was that, wait a second. Turn around and look at Chris. He loves me. Why isn't...? I mean, that's love. It may not be the crazy, stay-up-all-night-making-love kind of love, and wake-up-at-one-PM kind of love (chuckling). I invited a friend to the picnic, and that was her response (chuckling). We [?] woke up at one PM, and it didn't feel right to drink wine at three after that (chuckling). I was like, great, everyone had a great weekend, that's good (chuckling).

But yeah, so I'm just wondering if somewhere down the line I just went crazy, well obviously, and just I lost the sense of who I was and how I did things. [0:27:06] And so suddenly the way that I did things was wrong. Maybe it was wrong. But I just started comparing and freaking out, like, oh my God, we don't have this, oh my God, we don't have that. I don't have this. And then I completely lost confidence and that sense of security of who I was. Especially in my relationship with Chris, if I... I mean, we went through some hard times. He and I were living with my mom, and our intimacy was very peculiar and not like other people's. [0:27:58] But it was... I loved him, I did. There was no one else. I mean, (inaudible at 0:28:07) over Ohio was like, kiss me, kiss me. And I was like, no way (chuckling). I was a completely different person then in 2008 (chuckling). (Sighing) And now it's like I see everyone but Chris (chuckling). (Pause) Not it's like everything we do is wrong or diseased or not right, not the right way of doing it, inadequate, just because I have something to compare it with now (chuckling). [0:28:57] (Pause)

THERAPIST: But even that narrative you lost something. You lost your love for Chris.

CLIENT: What narrative?

THERAPIST: In the narrative that you were... it was once only him, and now you... (Chuckling) your attention was diverted. And it's just that the same... the narrative is similar so far as the narrative of loss.

CLIENT: Hmm. You mean it could be a narrative of gain (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Well, that's interesting. What are your thoughts?

CLIENT: I mean, it used to be a narrative of gain in October last year. I didn't feel down. Maybe it could change. I felt like I had learned a lot. I had changed, and some of the things were good. [0:29:58] And I felt more confident. So yeah, I didn't think it was... I wasn't embarrassed and regretful as much as I feel right now. Maybe it'll change (coughing). But maybe in October I was more hopeful, naively hopeful that Victor would turn around, and we'd be together again. I feel like that just brought a lot of positivity in my life, the hope of having him again. But now that that seems like that's false I feel more rotten about it, more negative. I'm thinking, I guess overanalyzing (chuckling) it and then thinking, wait, maybe this whole thing was wrong. [0:31:03] Maybe you... I was better the way that I was in the beginning before all this started (chuckling, sniffing). Which would you recommend, which narrative (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: That's how it goes, I recommend a narrative, and you adopt it?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm..

THERAPIST: Wow, that's pretty impressive.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Why?

THERAPIST: Well, it seems like therapy should only take one session then.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) No, I mean...

THERAPIST: Take your narrative and be on your way. Oh, okay, I'll take that narrative.

CLIENT: No, I mean, something that'll be more helpful and... I don't know (sighing). (Pause) [0:31:56] I don't know, I feel like maybe I'm thinking this just so I could get over Victor. But yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm sure just like the characters in your work that it's important that they have a narrative that's true to them and not a narrative imposed upon them.

CLIENT: By who?

THERAPIST: But I guess the piece I'm adding that hopefully is helpful is that Victor is significant insofar as he's part of a narrative for you. I've said this in different ways before. It's not about him. It's about what it means, but it's a different way of thinking about it, that he fits very seamlessly into a narrative that feels very true to you. And he's become significant because of it.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: The narrative he's a part of is something essential that you feel you've lost and sort of this love that feels so close and yet so, so far away. And you almost had it, but it escaped you because of somehow your own doing or lack of doing. [0:33:00] And that's the narrative you have that I think way preceded him, that he stimulated in you and that he continues to stimulate. And even the idea of your looking for his car, it's like you... like looking for something you've lost.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And even when you find it, it's taken away because there's another person there.

CLIENT: Hmm. Well, that's great, but what do I do with that (laughing)? How do I function and...? Yeah, what do I do with this?

THERAPIST: Because I think part of it is, it feels like your narrative, and in part it doesn't feel like your narrative. It feels like just about Victor. And I guess what I started thinking about is, we've talked a lot about how you sort of wish your father would just go away and disappear (chuckling), certainly at times. But I imagine there's a whole other sort of depth and complexity to it, about really longing for him, and maybe not for him as a person but him as a capital H (chuckling). [0:34:04]

CLIENT: Hmm. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And your mother certainly had those feelings toward your father on some level, that he kept... as we were talking about last week or thinking about why she kept taking him back.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, maybe he gave her life some kind of structure and meaning, some kind of recognition. I mean, people are scared of change, right? I mean, they don't know what their life is going to look like without that essential piece, without that thing that screams at them and curses them, sure. But then it has moments of respite and moments where he's needy, and you need to wake up at 5:00 and feed him. And that orients you and grounds you. [0:35:06] Maybe I'm just projecting my own fears on her, but, I mean, he was a big baby. And taking care of him was... I think she's maybe even verbalized once and said, oh, I need that, or talking about him like, he can't do this, he can't do that. And she seemed very energized when she was talking about it, I think. Like, I have to wake up and do this and feed him, or he won't eat (chuckling). But how does this relate to Victor (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Do you think she longed for someone to take care of her? [0:35:57]

CLIENT: She doesn't really articulate that very often. It's only when she gets sick that she calls out for her mom (sighing).

THERAPIST: What do you mean, calls out for her?

CLIENT: Just say, Mom, I'm (inaudible at 0:36:12). When she has fever (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Is she aware of it, or is she...?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She's... oh.

CLIENT: But only when she's sick.

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk) But she asks for her mother?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But that doesn't happen very often.

THERAPIST: That's an interesting thing to do (chuckling).

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: To call out... well, first of all, is her mother still alive?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) She's asking for someone who's dead to take care of her.

CLIENT: Well, she used to keep doing this, and my grandma was still alive. But then even after she died and Mom fell sick, she called out and... it's only when she's feeling really, really painful. [0:37:03] I think when she had a kidney stone, I remember... but on a daily basis she doesn't really have that thing about, take care of me or anything.

THERAPIST: I'm sure she does.

CLIENT: Well, yeah, when I pay for her rent (chuckling). So it's not like (sniffing) that's not taking care.

THERAPIST: For her the longing has turned into a kind of entitlement.

CLIENT: Really (ph)?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. You don't think?

CLIENT: I don't think of my mom as having any sense of entitlement (chuckling). (Pause) Well, how do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, she's entitled to your money.

CLIENT: Her money? [0:37:59]

THERAPIST: Your money, she's entitled to your money.

CLIENT: I don't think she feels that way. I mean... (Pause) I don't know (chuckling). (Pause)

THERAPIST: Then why do you think she takes it?

CLIENT: (Chuckling) I don't know.

THERAPIST: People don't take things they don't think they deserve.

CLIENT: Really? Even when they have a need for it?

THERAPIST: Well, I would think on some level you would also feel entitled to it. Otherwise you, kind of by definition, wouldn't take it (chuckling).

CLIENT: Well, okay, so, I mean, maybe the narrative is that she took care of me when I was a child, so now it's my turn (chuckling). [0:39:00]

THERAPIST: Well, that might be. But, I mean, that would be a version of entitlement, right? Entitlement based on reciprocity, I guess?

CLIENT: Yeah. That somehow feels a safer way to feel entitled, right (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Yes. In some ways that's also the definition. That you're entitled to because you quite literally feel like you're owed something. You're owed in response to payment or effort or work. So that's actually probably the definition of entitlement (chuckling).

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: And I'm entitled to this because I did this.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I mean, I encourage that (chuckling) narrative, that feeling in her. I mean, I definitely do feel that she's done a lot and suffered a lot. [0:39:57] So at this stage in her life things should be a little easier (chuckling). And they might be a little hard for me, but I should be able to handle it because I'm much younger than her, so... (Pause) But yeah, I mean, it shouldn't turn into a pressure. It shouldn't turn into like, I owe her, and... which it does turn into. And I'm rotten if I can't fulfill this (chuckling, sniffing).

THERAPIST: You feel rotten?

CLIENT: I would, yeah. I mean, I would feel rotten. [0:40:56] Like, I saw this... an apartment this weekend, and it's in a good neighborhood. It's not a great apartment or anything, but I was like, what the hell am I doing? I'm not (chuckling)... I don't know if I can afford this, so I was telling my mom about it. And she didn't say anything like, oh, let me find a job, and then that way you can afford it. And I was telling her about my roommate wanting me back. And my mom was like, well, that place really reminded you of Victor, so you moved out. She didn't say, yeah, you had to pay for my rent, that's why you moved out (chuckling). So that made me feel... this makes me feel kind of rotten. Like, I wonder if I should live on my own, but I cannot do it because of the money constraint. And there are of course other psychological hang-ups about my fear of loneliness and all that. [0:42:00] But I feel like it has turned into, I owe her or else.

THERAPIST: Or else what?

CLIENT: I don't know, I can't think that far.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (Pause) What happens if you try to think that far?

CLIENT: I'm trying to think. I mean... or else I'm rotten (chuckling). That's what I mean about being stuck. Like, if I don't do it, I'm rotten. If I do it, I'm rotten (laughing). Like, a no-win situation. (Pause) Like, if she were to find a job on her own and be able to afford rent of her own accord, just stop needing money of her own accord, that would be like, aha! [0:43:04] (Chuckling) There's an opportunity. But I think it's also somewhere up here that opportunities, even if they're there, they don't seem like opportunities because I think in terms of negative so much. And I shut them up before they can even seem to be like opportunities.

THERAPIST: Because they'll be too tempting?

CLIENT: No, I guess I don't consider them.

THERAPIST: They don't seem like they could actually be real?

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) [0:43:59] I know you discouraged me from talking about Victor earlier (chuckling). Is that your way of helping me get over him (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Do you feel like I was discouraging you?

CLIENT: No, no, I just thought, oh, maybe that's what she wants me to do. Okay, I'll do that (chuckling). Yeah, I didn't mean it as a negative, but... so what you were trying to say is that I don't really love him, but it's just that he fits nicely in this narrative? [0:45:02]

THERAPIST: I don't... I'm... I don't have a comment on whether you love him or not because then it becomes a very complicated question of, what is love anyway?

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: But I do think... so there can be a lot of other... he's... maybe he is only part of the narrative. Maybe he's more than a part of the narrative? But I think at the very least he's a part of the narrative (chuckling).

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think that that in itself is something to think about. Whether he's something else, too, I don't know. That's for us to talk about. You know, we actually need to stop for today.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So let's talk more... I mean, about your e-mail and the logistics and so forth. I want to... yeah, let's talk about that more on Wednesday. Does that sound...?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. The thing is that you know about the Friday morning (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: You said that Friday was... let's... we'll talk about it. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Okay, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, very good. I'll see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yeah, see you...

THERAPIST: Take care.

CLIENT: You, too.

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