TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So next Monday I might... I'll be in Ohio, so...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Could we... do you have any other slot I can (inaudible at 0:00:13)?

THERAPIST: Sure. Do you want...? I have... I probably have at least one time on Tuesday. Let me take a look. So that's Monday the sixth.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: We'll be back in the afternoon, so, if you have...

THERAPIST: I don't have anything in the afternoon unfortunately.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But I do... I could do Tuesday. I have a 10:15... a 10:30 on Tuesday. Is that a possibility?

CLIENT: I'll be (inaudible at 0:00:46) Tuesday.

THERAPIST: I see. What is your schedule for school?

CLIENT: I'll be back after 6:00 (chuckling).

THERAPIST: I have a 5:15, but I don't have anything after. [0:00:59] What about Thursday?

CLIENT: Oh, 5:15? I could... I think I could do that because...

THERAPIST: Could you do 5:15? So I can... okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So okay, so I have you in for 5:15 on the seventh.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay, great. Did you...? I mean, yeah, did you want to talk about adding another session? What do you think?

CLIENT: Yeah, sure. On Friday morning?

THERAPIST: I think the only... I can do that. The only thing is Fridays in the summer I'm sometimes away.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't like scheduling someone regularly and then having to cancel it, but I value sort of giving you a time that's yours. So that's my only...

CLIENT: Yeah, I'll be away in the summer actually (ph).

THERAPIST: Oh, that's... when do you leave?

CLIENT: End of May, so I'll be gone June and July (sneezing). Excuse me.

THERAPIST: Bless you.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Oh, so you're here only through May? [0:01:59]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you're... then June and July you're gone, and then you're back in August sometime?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that should be fine. So we're really only looking at a month of scheduling Fridays (crosstalk).

CLIENT: Yeah, and then again in August.

THERAPIST: Right, okay. So right, a month for a few months. So I could do that. In terms of fee, what I feel okay about-and let me know if you can afford this-is 70.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Then I would charge the 70 which I've been... which was before...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that something that you can do?

CLIENT: I can look at my (chuckling)...

THERAPIST: Take a look at it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If you need something lower... that's sort of what I would prefer.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If you need something lower, let me know, okay?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I'm committed to making this treatment the best it can be for you, so that's okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: The only thing with Fridays is my Friday schedule in May is a little irregular.

CLIENT: That's fine.

THERAPIST: So I have to... we'd have to do a little bit... I definitely was thinking in the morning, but there's... my times are... like, for example, this Friday I could meet at 11:10, ten after eleven? [0:03:08] Could you do that?

CLIENT: I'll see, but my finances (chuckling)...

THERAPIST: Oh, you want to check that, okay.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, tell me. Look, I really want to meet with you, so...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Let me know if you can only... if you can do less, you can do less.

CLIENT: Well, I mean, I want to respect what you want, but I know that 70's a bit... I mean, right now...

THERAPIST: What were you hoping for?

CLIENT: I don't know (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Well, you... I mean, I imagine you weren't thinking $5...

CLIENT: No (laughing).

THERAPIST: So clear... right, so clearly there was something you had in mind.

CLIENT: I didn't have anything in mind, but, I mean, 70? Because then [they pay us] (ph) monthly, so...

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk) right.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So if you paid 70 total a week, 50 for that session and then 20 for the other two...

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:04:01] I think yeah, maybe...

THERAPIST: You think that...

CLIENT: Because that's four weeks, right?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Four is... how much is that (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: 70 times 4 is 280? Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it will work.

THERAPIST: Can you do that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Let's do that then.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And so do you want the 11:10 time this Friday? Ten after eleven?

CLIENT: Not this Friday (chuckling).

THERAPIST: So you don't want to do this Friday.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, so we'll look at the... I think... let me... I'll e-mail you about next Friday.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. And I'm actually (chuckling)... we're not going to have that many times...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because I'm away the last Friday of May. I think it's the last Friday (inaudible at 0:04:47), like the Friday before Memorial Day.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I could do something tomorrow if you'd like to meet then. This Thursday.

CLIENT: Tomorrow, probably not (laughing). [0:05:00] It's the end of the semester, so I'm trying to write a grant application. And my professors are kind of busy, and they have events. And they want me to go to school tomorrow to attend them. So tomorrow I'm not even going to have time to work because I'll be at school (chuckling), hopefully not for the whole day but definitely in the afternoon. So it kind of is weird because something's at 11:00, then you have to get ready and leave by 9:00 and then stay there until 1:00 or 2:00. (Chuckling) And that's the day, pretty much. So... (Pause) But yeah, I guess for next week it can...

THERAPIST: I think next... I'll let you know. I think I'll have 11:15... 11:20. [0:06:04] I need to double check, but I think it's 1120 I have next Friday.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I could do that.

THERAPIST: So we're only meeting then two Monday... two Fridays because there's the tenth and the seventeenth, and then I'm gone the last Friday.

CLIENT: Okay. Where are you going (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Going to Pike's Peak.

CLIENT: Where's that?

THERAPIST: It's in Colorado. It's a national park, like hiking and stuff.

CLIENT: Wow (chuckling). Very nice. Do you have family there, or...?

THERAPIST: Hm-mmm.

CLIENT: So you're going with friends or...?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: That's nice.

THERAPIST: Are you curious what kinds of vacations that I take?

CLIENT: No, I just... I know this is professional, but, I mean, sometimes it feels odd because you know pretty much everything about me (laughing). [0:06:57] And [it reminds me] (ph), it gives you a lot of power (laughing). So...

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, you know everything, and I don't know anything about you (laughing). So that imbalance of information is...

THERAPIST: Feels like an imbalance of power?

CLIENT: Yeah (laughing).

THERAPIST: What could I do with that power?

CLIENT: I don't know (chuckling). Judge me.

THERAPIST: You have less to judge me on?

CLIENT: Totally (chuckling).

THERAPIST: You could not like my clothes, for example.

CLIENT: No, I like your clothes.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: (Laughing)

THERAPIST: But I guess that's not quite...

CLIENT: Yeah, it's not in the same level at all (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Do you feel that I judge you?

CLIENT: No, I mean, I don't know. But (pause) yeah, no (chuckling).

THERAPIST: You're not sure.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) I mean, it's possible, right? I mean, because people have preferences, people have opinions. [0:08:01] So... (Pause) (Sniffing) But I think what you said last time kind of really helped me (chuckling), so (sighing)...

THERAPIST: What are you referring to in particular?

CLIENT: Just the thing about how Victor (sp?) is part of a narrative for me, so I felt... I mean, I became conscious of ways that... and started to kind of at least try to think differently about not seeking out something that feels like a rejection, that just feels like deliberate torture (chuckling), deliberate punishing myself. [0:09:05] I mean, I'm not conscious when I have been doing it, but now I'm trying to be conscious that... and you said I think about him when I'm feeling low, right? So I guess I'm trying not to seek that out. I think... yeah, if I feel low, then I seek out stuff that makes me feel even lower (chuckling), something like, oh, yeah, I didn't get this. Well, there's another thing, that huge thing that I didn't get, and that's so sad. And so I try not to... you're climbing down the stairs, and then you take... you jump down even further (chuckling). So instead of jumping down at least just stay there, and then climb back up. [0:09:54] Climbing back up would be the next step, but at least not going further down. So, I mean, it's tempting to think... it's really, really tempting to think about him and make myself feel low. But I try not to, I guess. And I guess what you said last time... I guess we'll have to talk about love, but I suppose we can do that in the future (chuckling). But (sighing), I mean, just...

THERAPIST: In the future? You don't want to talk about it now?

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Well, you know, if it comes up, if it's something that's... I mean, yeah, I'm trying to think how much of a priority it is in my life. I started saying things like, I don't believe in love (chuckling). [0:10:57] (inaudible at 0:10:59). I said yesterday something like, I believe in God, but I don't believe in love (chuckling). But... (Pause) Because earlier before the whole Victor episode I didn't really think about love. I didn't invest much time in thinking about it in my relationship with Chris (sp?) because we were on autopilot. And we both had our dreams to achieve and work on. So that relationship bit was just kind of there, and living together makes it actually harder to be a couple, right? [0:11:58] Because, I mean, I guess that's what Victor made me aware of. He wouldn't see me more than once a week, and earlier he would... it seems like he invested a lot of time thinking of what to do and how to have a good time with someone you're romantically involved with or even just fooling around with (chuckling).

So we didn't do much of that. We busy, busy, busy, and then Chris would say, let's go away. And we'd go away, but we'd take our heads with us. So we would both be preoccupied and miserable. We'd do something like go watch a movie at the... during the vacation. And we both would hate it and just pile on (chuckling). So we don't really think about how to make it better and that I certainly wasn't happy. [0:13:05] And Chris, I guess he wasn't happy, but he didn't care. Like, it's not a priority to him that things feel a certain way or look a certain way or make him happy, you know? Maybe it does. I don't know. But it doesn't seem like that from his behavior, right? That he would judge an experience on the basis of how it makes him feel, at last in the relationship. So (sniffing)... (Pause) I mean, I guess with my first boyfriend I had moments of (chuckling) feeling in love. [0:13:54] Like, your first love is always like that when you remember it. I'm glad we were in the south, and we had sunny days (laughing).

THERAPIST: It doesn't feel like you have sunny days here?

CLIENT: Not this year (laughing). It's so cold! But I don't know, I just... I guess it makes a difference. For me it makes a difference, having a campus... having had a campus and having lived in it for four years and away from my parents, oh God (chuckling). So (inaudible at 0:14:35) skipping classes and could instead and just hanging out, [me and Jeremy] (ph) (chuckling, sniffing). So...

THERAPIST: That was his name?

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling). [0:14:57] Yeah, I mean, things got messed up because of my parents, but, until they did, it was all right, I guess? (Pause) (Sniffing) I mean, I wonder if I have, like my dad... I have a roving eye (chuckling). I'm kind of concerned about that also. Even when I was with Jeremy, I mean, if another guy looked at me or expressed interest, I was intrigued by that. And I was... I mean, Jeremy was too jealous, and he would throw a tantrum (chuckling). [0:15:56] So that kind of made me not explore what was the other possibilities. But actually I did one summer. I was... I had an internship, so (coughing) I had moved to a different state (sniffing). Yeah, and this guy in my office, he was better-looking or taller or stronger (chuckling). And I had no friends and no other community, so I kind of had a crush on him? So... but nothing happened because he wasn't attracted to me (chuckling, sniffing). So... but Jeremy got wind of it and got very upset (chuckling). [0:16:57] So then I just was like, why can't I stay faithful to Jeremy in my heart (chuckling)? (Pause) I guess I wasn't... because we were in the south or because we were part of a church, I didn't really think (pause), like, it's time to move on. We've exhausted that relationship, so we... I should move on (chuckling). I felt tied to Chris... Jeremy. (Sighing) And he was... (Pause) Because he taught me to drive, and he was like a father figure (chuckling). So it felt like I couldn't really break off with him, even though I guess I may have wanted to. [0:17:59] (Pause)

It just seems like... yeah, so, I mean, that was my earlier... earliest experience of love (chuckling). I mean, but I guess with Victor everything was just very different. And another thing that keeps... that makes me think about him is my friend at school (chuckling). She is having this kind of relationship right now, and any time she talks about her boyfriend, which is all the time (chuckling), really reminds me of Victor because of the things that she says, you know? I never felt this way about anyone else, and (chuckling) I invited her to a picnic on Sunday. [0:19:01] And she merrily sends me an e-mail saying, we woke up at 1:00, and we don't feel like going out at 3:00 (chuckling). And I was telling Chris, what is she doing? Why is she so proud of the fact that we woke up late together, woke up at one (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Why do you think?

CLIENT: I don't know. Being in love and spending an awesome night together, I don't know (laughing). And being lazy and decadent and (sniffing) waking up is quite an achievement (chuckling). For those of us how have... stick to routines, go to bed at 12:00 the latest and wake up at 7:00, right (ph)? [0:20:01] (Pause) I guess I'm just (sniffing)... with Chris it's just, like, the innocence is there, and I really just... I actually treasure it. I value it just because I think that's what makes you young or... as an artist that's... that childhood innocence makes you see things. (Pause) Otherwise you get jaded (sniffing). So I value that, but (blowing nose) I guess now I'm wondering, just how important is chemistry and just how important is that thing about staying up all night and waking up at 1:00 (chuckling). [0:21:00] I only did that with Victor (sniffing), so I'm not sure if it's important to me. And I do think about him when my friend talks about her boyfriend. And I guess maybe instead of analyzing what I felt about him I just kind of call it love? But maybe it's not love if you're saying he's part of a narrative that is put in place to make me feel bad about myself (chuckling). So I'm not making a lot of sense (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Really, you don't feel you are (clearing throat)?

CLIENT: Yeah, my thoughts usually look (ph) disjointed. I don't know if all that I've said as a thread. It just feels a little awkward (chuckling). [0:22:01]

THERAPIST: I think it's confusing.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is confusing (sighing). (Pause) (Sniffing, chuckling) I mean, love is complicated, right? So there're so many aspects, there're so many ways it can go wrong. So... and you change over time, so when you go back (chuckling), it's not even linear. So just... I don't know. (Pause) [0:23:04] I guess we can... I can put it in a question form (chuckling). That's the... it seems to me, the form that I'm most comfortable with here... or one of the forms. So my question would be, do you think I love Victor (chuckling)? I mean, it's not even important, I guess, because he's out of the picture, I suppose. But I guess a conclusion or resolution, and the answer has to be no, so (laughing)...

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: So it's not a question.

CLIENT: No, it is a question.

THERAPIST: But there's only one answer.

CLIENT: Yeah! [0:23:56]

THERAPIST: So it's not a question...

CLIENT: I mean, you can say a different answer. I just will say you're wrong (laughing).

THERAPIST: I see. So, if you have a sense of what the right answer is, why do you think you need to ask me?

CLIENT: Because I still think about him (chuckling). I have to tell my friend, don't talk about your boyfriend (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Because it reminds me of him. (Pause) (Sniffing) [0:25:00] (Sighing) I mean, do you see a pattern? I guess there is a pattern between Jeremy and Chris (chuckling). And I feel like maybe I have a way of destroying relationships (chuckling) by depending too much and by making them my father figure, even if they may not be. (Pause) [0:26:00] [0:26:56] I guess maybe it's hard for me to distinguish need from love. Like, I'm thinking... I mean, I'm looking for apartments and not really feeling too strongly about moving out (chuckling). And I'm feeling like, can I really live away from Chris, and just the meaning of that statement, if it's... there's probably very little romantic connotations in that statement, but more about (sniffing) the need for companionship, the need for the intellectual grounding, the need to have my finances taken care of (chuckling). (Pause) Yeah. [0:27:57] But, I mean, if you say this out loud to someone then you say, wow, you love me, if you're saying I cannot live without you (chuckling). Then, if you tell him no, it's because I need you to pay the bills (chuckling), I need you to make me work, I need you to... I need to eat with someone, cook for two people instead of one, I need to feel safe at night.

THERAPIST: So maybe the question is, do you need him as a child, or do you need him as an adult?

CLIENT: What's the difference?

THERAPIST: Does it not feel like a difference?

CLIENT: No, I just mean, like, what do you mean by an adult?

THERAPIST: Well, a child needs their parents [as their parents] (ph) to survive...

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:28:54]

THERAPIST: To take care of them in a very basic way because they're unable to take care of themselves.

CLIENT: Hmm (sniffing). And what's the other one? (Pause)

THERAPIST: They don't need them to survive (chuckling).

CLIENT: What do you need them for?

THERAPIST: I don't know, what do you think?

CLIENT: I don't know. (Chuckling) Companionship? I don't know (chuckling). (Pause) (Sniffing) So how much of it is me being a child and him being the adult? And how much of it is both of us being adult? I guess that is (sighing)... [0:30:01] (Pause) [0:31:00] I mean, if you say a child needs to be taken care of because he cannot do it himself, that makes me kind of feel bad because maybe I want to be childlike in my innocence or curiosity about the world. But I don't want to be childlike in the sense that I cannot take care of myself, you know (chuckling)? (Pause) (Sighing) [0:31:53] But... (Pause) I don't know, I feel like there's been different... things in my life have required me to have to play different roles, maybe?

Like, when I was a child I couldn't be a child because of my dad, because he was a child. So I had to put up with his tantrums. And suddenly... maybe I wasn't an adult, I didn't have an adult-like demeanor. But I had to have adult-like understanding and patience. And then I could be a child again when it was just me and my mom. And then when we came here to the US I had to be an adult again and get a job and be responsible and teach my mom how to drive and take care of her. [0:33:09] But then I could be a child again in some scenarios where a father figure boyfriend would step in and teach me driving or take care of me, you know? So I feel like, yeah, when people accuse me of being childlike or behaving childishly (chuckling), I feel I put up a defense, and I say things in my defense. No, but I was responsible. I came here 15... when I was 15, and I had to take care of my parents. And that must mean... that proves that I was an adult. Then they're like, no, but you throw these tantrums. That means that you're a child still. You haven't grown up. [0:33:59] So I'm like, okay (chuckling), I guess in that aspect I am a child. So I feel like there hasn't been a uniform progression towards adulthood (chuckling). So (Sighing) I guess that reflects in relationships. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, I think people see you as a child at times because that's how you present yourself.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I think you present yourself in that way. I don't think... I think that's why they see it. I think it's about how you present yourself.

CLIENT: How...? I'm just asking, how do I present myself?

THERAPIST: I don't know specifically...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I imagine it has something to do with it, not that they're just saying you're childlike. [0:35:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think it's something that you put out, and I'm not... I don't know how to define it specifically. But that's what I imagine.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I wish I could be aware of what I'm putting out, so I don't put it out (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Well (clearing throat), but there's a part of you that wants to be childlike so you're taken care of. So part of you wants to put it out that way.

CLIENT: Well, that's what I'm wondering what... like, maybe I can change that. Maybe I should try out not wanting to be taken care of (chuckling) and see how I do. Maybe I don't need to be taken care of. Do I put... like, not just in our conversation, but generally do I put that out? Like, do you see it? [0:35:54]

THERAPIST: Do I see it in here?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yes, at times. When you ask me questions, they feel... there's a question, there's sort of an innocence. Well, what do you think? How do I feel?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There's a childlike quality to that, yes.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: And then also the way of-this is related at times-not taking yourself seriously, assuming the adult... with the questions, assuming that the adult in the room has the answer. And I'm the adult in the room. There're not two adults in the room.

CLIENT: Yeah, hmm. (inaudible at 0:36:30). Why do I do that (laughing)?

THERAPIST: I should answer as the adult in the room?

CLIENT: No (chuckling), just someone who's farther away from my head. (Pause) Is it because I lack confidence and I'm insecure, or something else? [0:37:01]

THERAPIST: I'll answer that. I think there's a piece of it that's true, and I think there's a piece of you that is longing to be taken care of, that feels very sort of gypped of your childhood and that you want pieces of it back.

CLIENT: I mean, that's not a good idea, right?

THERAPIST: It's a terrible idea. It's absolutely terrible.

CLIENT: And, I mean, it ruins relationships, right?

THERAPIST: It destroys them. Everything is purchased at a price, you know? So you get that, but there's a price that you pay. And everything is a trade off.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think you're aware that giving up on this... I mean, I don't know, I think adults can act childlike. I think we have childlike parts in us for sure. But giving up on these... or not even giving up but lessening your attachment to them... I don't think they go away. [0:38:02] I think you're aware of what you'd be giving up, and you're not sure it's worth it.

CLIENT: I'm not even sure if I understand (chuckling), like, being aware of being childlike. I'm not aware of it (chuckling).

THERAPIST: When you ask me questions like, what do you think? What is love? What is your feeling at the moment when you ask those questions (clearing throat)?

CLIENT: I don't know. Just curiosity, like, I want to know. I want to add to my knowledge. I want to know what your experience is. I want to see the world through your eyes. I don't know if that is childlike (chuckling). (Pause) [0:38:56] But yeah, other times, when I ask other questions, I do have that feeling that I'm completely lost and help me, throw me a flashlight please, or just pull me out (chuckling). Maybe that's too needy and too unadultlike, when I can rely on my own eyes and ears to do the work. I mean, I feel like maybe it's not just childish. It's also like loneliness in the sense that yeah, I mean, I want to see it through your eyes. It's not necessarily about I don't trust my eyes. I just want to be part of yours, to be part of what you see.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: So it's childhood loneliness, maybe (chuckling)? [0:39:58] (Pause) I mean, I guess I see that people, adults, they're more certain of themselves, and they know what they see. And they know how to evaluate it, and they don't ask that many questions. But I don't like some of that. I mean, I find the confidence and the ability to analyze sexy? But I don't think I necessarily like the idea of not asking any (ph) questions.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I was thinking about that, that children have a curiosity that I think is sometimes lost unfortunately in adulthood, a particular kind of openness to the world...

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:40:59]

THERAPIST: That we call childlike because it's more prevalent in children, but I think it's something that is sort of very unfortunately lost. And I can appreciate why you would value that.

CLIENT: I mean, I value it as an artist but also in my... with my... Chris and I usually value that. We... his uncle, he's, like, 60-something years old, and he's very curious. He's an intellectual, and an activist. And he's very curious. He's always asking questions of young people about the world, and... but, I mean, he doesn't come across as childlike (chuckling), and neither does Chris. But he really cultivates curiosity. So I just have to figure out how to cultivate it without coming across as a child (chuckling, sighing). (Pause) [0:42:00] Yeah, just... I don't want to be jaded and give the impression that I have everything, that I've seen everything, that I don't want more. No thank you (chuckling). I'm very... yeah, I'm apprehensive of that kind of a stance. (Chuckling) I mean, it seems sexy enough. You shut your door, and you go in, and you're by yourself. But I feel like... yeah.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Cecelia (sp?), we're going to need to stop for today. So I will see you next Tuesday at 5:15 on Monday. [0:43:00]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay, great.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Have a good day.

CLIENT: You, too. Have a good weekend.

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