TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So I stayed up too late night, so... it's like the entire day I've been sort of groggy, getting in gear, I have a headache. So I was driving over, I thought, you know, "So what's going on? Let's talk about it." And of course, that is often the thing, right? That's sort of going on.

So driving, women who I've, who was out sunning themselves, I was thinking, "Huh! What's that like?" Like, I used to do that. But it seems like, wow. It's like, now I'm taking one class, and I feel overwhelmed. It's like, I used to take four classes and I had time to do whatever.

THERAPIST: I know it. You got a, yeah, you have... (blocked)

CLIENT: That's right, oh, exactly. So it's like, man, what's this shit, you know? Anyway, so that was...

THERAPIST: You're pretty overwhelmed, huh? With the...

CLIENT: Well, no, like it's just, you know, it's a lot to do just the one, right? I'm thinking, you know, how is it that we used to do that, right? I mean (therapist affirms), how is that we, in high school, took seven classes, and in college took four or five classes? I mean, there is just... now, at this point in my life, I don't know about you, it feels like, "Oh my God!" (therapist laughs), I, there is no way I can do it! There is no way! (therapist laughs and affirms) I mean, I can think deeply about one thing. But the idea of jumping back and forth... (therapist responds) to different things. [00:01:28]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. I also think that you... you really jump into that. You really jump in there, the... it's complicated stuff, it's not... It deserves its own... yeah, time for just that. (client affirms) The way that you really grapple with it and think about it now.

CLIENT: Earlier on, yeah. I'm not sure. I mean, I feel like... (pause) Like, in college, I guess, I mean, it was just like, I chose things that I was naturally good at. And I didn't want to do things that I, you know, I mean, you know. I wasn't doing stuff that I didn't have a knack for. I don't know. Like, I could always write, you know? So you take classes, you take philosophy, you take social theory classes, and you know, you read a lot of books and you write a lot of papers and that seems like a piece of cake, right? It wasn't a piece of cake, but it felt like that's, that was in the wheelhouses (ph) of mine. [00:02:40]

So, this class, so prior to the lecture itself, in another classroom, he has office hours. So that's an hour, right? But then, right after that, you know, you have to be waiting outside, they were coming in, and they're doing Victorian Literature. But of course, all of our math stuff is already on the board, right? Now I had this sense of like, as they're walking in, in their... You know, it tends to be an older crowd, right? So, retirees and so forth who are willing to take classes, genuinely edifying. Now I have the sense of like, when they walk in, see all that stuff on the board, are they perplexed, or disappointed, or put off, or... anyway. (therapist responds) [00:03:40]

(pause) Because I'm sure that I... I don't recall any specific feeling, but, you know, I'm sure that it... that has happened, where I was taking... I don't know; whatever I used to take and then walk into a classroom and see those sort of things and that feeling of... worry and not comprehending, at seeing that stuff on the board. Whereas now... (pause) I don't know. Now I feel like if I were to walk into a classroom, and see a bunch of nonsense on the board, and strange symbols that were some sort of math, I would be slightly intrigued, maybe a little disappointed that I didn't quite get it (if it was something I didn't understand), but the feeling of like, well... you know, if I work hard at it, I can figure it out. (therapist responds) As opposed to feeling... you know, whatever that feeling is. [00:05:07]

THERAPIST: Like some amount of intimidation?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's it. Intimidation. (therapist affirms) Yeah. (pause) Anyway! So then, you know, I went to class and... I'm watching him teach, you know, and I sort of... I feel like I was getting everything that was going on. So, the class sort of reached this crescendo, where it's, you know, it's... the point of, well, A cannot, A cannot B point, but A (ph), a very handy feature of later algebra, is that then you can do calculus in a more focused, powerful way, particularly differential equations, which is, you know, useful for modeling a lot of interesting things.

So I was very pleased. I felt like I put in a lot of work to really think about that. So in class, I was sort of watching, and I was appreciating him as a teacher, because you know, evaluations are coming out. And so, as he was talking, I was sort of making a note to myself, what is there to capture, like something about him in the moment, as opposed to being distant from him and sort of thinking about the class from my desk; I want to be in it, thinking, like, "How can I review him as a teacher?" [00:06:30]

And I thought, what I like about him is that, it's sort of what I try to be and perhaps am, which is if I get good feedback, perhaps, like... I want to be... (pause) You know, that's what I remember about him. There is something very kind and generous about at least trying to make it accessible and yet it is difficult. So he does it with humor and it's high level, but it's proof-y (ph) and it's very fast, and yet he always tries to somehow cut to the chase. So, he describes all this stuff and it's a little overwhelming, I mean, but... you know, then, he starts like, "But then you can do this." [00:07:20]

So you could take three vortors (ph) of work and just solve the problem using one vortor (ph) of work. And there is energy, there is excitement, and there is a sense of perspective and self-deprecation. He's always, there is often a smile, there is something very keen and... (pause) I don't know. It feels like we were sort of involved in some project, (therapist responds) as opposed to, I suppose... I mean, I know I'm tired as I'm, my full affect is very sort of tired and careless, I suppose, but...

It's different from sort of the... image that I perhaps used to have. It's interesting, I don't know. It's funny. As I walked in today, I wasn't thinking about any of this. In certain ways, I guess I'm just rambling, but... You know, this previous notion of... that sort of analytic-like thinking of it being humorless and... yeah, very conservative, in a way. Yeah. [00:08:51]

Anyway, so... (therapist affirms) (inaudible) directions are sort of free associations, I was walking and there was this Chinese kid (one of the many Chinese kids) and he's wearing a shirt. It had sort of like, big sort of like starburst, crazy like, batman sort of thought bubble; and it said, "Engineering: it's like math, but louder." (laughs) I thought, like, when I was in high school, I would have thought, "That's clever! That's funny." I wouldn't have been averse to it. I mean, you know, my friend Jimmy went on to become an engineer, so it's like, we talked about that stuff. You know, we each did our coursework and I wasn't... You know, that closed to the science and math weren't completely anathema to me. (pause) I don't know. Anyway, stuff that I found kind of amusing. [00:09:52]

THERAPIST: No, but, I mean it's almost a, I guess what I was thinking of is less "ivory tower," kind of precious or special or exclusive, more humorous or sort of ... I don't know.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, and also, just the idea of... (pause) Maybe there are, maybe it... Well, first of all, it's intriguing me, that I simply often return to this idea of thoughts about this sort of type of thinking. Clearly, there is something going on there. (therapist affirms) I don't know what is, but... I don't know, maybe it's... Yeah, some part of myself, I don't know. [00:10:52]

You know, I mean, it's some part of me, like they represent some part of the world that I have misgivings about, I don't know. Yeah, so, there is a sense of like... People who are very focused and keen, and maybe you know, close to autistic in the sense that they're like really, really focused on just being logical, you know? And they're not people who you want to hang out with, and they maybe are of the type that they either have no "oomph" to them in any other way, or they're (inaudible). It's like the comic book guy, The Simpsons, right? Just sort of completely into science fiction (therapist affirms) or some related thing that... which, you know... (pause) well, I don't know, like, I don't generally get, and I don't like it. [00:12:08]

I don't know, I didn't play Dungeons & Dragons, I had no interest in Dungeons & Dragons, and yet there are people who just play Dungeons & Dragons. They're thinking, "I don't want to be here." Like that, around that, and if they're doing nerdy stuff, that's not my cup of tea, you know. Because it felt, it's like this weird, hyper... weird, machismo in some way, right? It's like, who can know more in some weird realm. You know, so it's not leavened (ph) by any sort of figure or perspective.

So anyway, to bring it back to this idea of all this stuff on the board, for the office hours, and then people who are studying Victorian Literature walking in. So I turned to the guy behind me, who was, you know, probably, you know, late 60s... and I said, "What class is this?" He said, "Oh, it's Victorian Literature." And he said, "You know, once a week we have, we watch films." So there is the class, and then there is the, they watch films once a week, so they have a viewing. So it's where they watch flicks, they watch movies. [00:13:34]

THERAPIST: They go there to watch the movies?

CLIENT: They go there. And everything is very affable, people are, you know, engaged, because they're going to go and watch a movie, and they're happy, entertaining (inaudible) that is interesting them. And I said, "Oh, that's very interesting." I said, "But I'm sure it's probably more interesting than the stuff you see on the board here." And he said, "Yeah." He goes, "I think I used to maybe know some of that!" (therapist laughs) And I looked at him and said, "Yeah, I wish I did! I wish I knew it now!"

(pause) But the thing is, I do get it! I mean, I do understand what's on the board and I do like it, right? And it wasn't really true, in some way, to say that (therapist affirms) "I'd rather be taking a literature course." I feel like I've done all of that! And now, from the "sitting in the literature chair" perspective, thinking, I'm kind of trying to relate to what they must think, looking (therapist affirms) at the board, the fact of the matter is, I know what it's like sitting there, and I know what it's like to read that and write papers on literature. [00:14:47]

THERAPIST: And look up at the board?

CLIENT: And look up at a board like that. I mean, for right now, and... And I'm not someone who's like, being geeky and doesn't like, "Oh, my God, I don't want to study literature; I just want to do math, math, math!" No! It's, there is somehow the same thing in some way... in terms of it being satisfying, of there being something emotional about it, or broadening; maybe more broadening, maybe. It's not... I don't know. It's not perhaps confined to the Zeitgeist of Victorian times, and limited horizons, and trying to look back and do the whole "intention of the author" thing, and literary theory, and blah, blah, blah; blah, blah, blah, blah, right? [00:15:51]

Instead, this is something which is true for all time, right? (therapist responds) And it's refreshing in that sense. And one does not have to be looking for... go down these just circuitous, endless conversations about intention, and who's right, and who's got the status in terms of, you know... That very critic has more pedigree in some way, and so we should take them more seriously, we should look at from Marx's point of view, I mean, it depends on your professor; no, no! It's math! Right? You don't have to entertain, you don't have to be reading derry-da (ph) to talk about Anthony Trollope. [00:16:50]

(pause) You know, so it's sort of equal opportunity. (therapist affirms) As long as you sort of keep challenging oneself and build me up. There is a sequence to it, and it's nice, right? You sort of just keep building up, up, up, up, up! Whereas, literature, I don't know. Or any of the humanities, you know? They're sort of... I'm not sure, at least that's my experience. It wasn't a "step one, step two, step three." It's all in some ways... and it's that, this perhaps is disappointing, I mean, this is what I'm getting at. It's all equally confounding and equally open for debate, no matter where you jump in. And you could have taken many, many, many courses in literature and yet still... there might be more increased sophistication among students. But still, it always goes back to, just sort of how one feels about it, essentially. That's how it works. How do you feel about it? (therapist affirms) Then you can spin all kinds of ideas from that. (therapist affirms) [00:18:25]

So yesterday, so I had this sort of remarkable sort of moment, right where I felt like, "Huh!" See, it's been awhile since I've written. So yesterday, I taught at the German school until 1:30, so 8 and 1:30 and... which was fun.

THERAPIST: Where did you do that...?

CLIENT: So they have these, they have these Career Days. Not Career Days, they have things like Health Fairs, that's what it is, Health Fair. So this German International School, over in Waltham... So I go and I teach First Aid, then I teach CPR (therapist affirms) and so I did that last year and so I did it again this year. It's a lot of fun.

THERAPIST: I remember you talking about that last year, for some reason.

CLIENT: It's a great school, it's very cool. I really like it. Anyway, and now that I announce, they, I guess they know me a little bit better, but... Sometimes people will just start talking to me in German. [00:19:27]

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Oh, I could see that (inaudible).

CLIENT: (inaudible)/blocked. (therapist affirms) It's not obvious that I don't speak German. Anyway, so it's fun, you know? So, it's fun, so anyhow, I was teaching third, fourth graders and then sixth graders. So, after that, so I'm teaching that and of course I'm talking about CPR and of course, what's implied in that is that people are dead, right? So, there is the issue of, you know, talking to young kids and you want to convey the importance of this and how to do it, but you don't want to frighten them, right? But it is talking about dead people, right?

And you also want to tell them, you know, you don't want to practice on each other! Don't be pushing each other's chests! Don't do that! You see it on TV, there are actors, and they're always bending their elbows and... You know, but you get these crazy kids, they have these really fun sort of questions, which are innocent, but like real. Like, "One time I saw a man on an airplane and he looked like he was dead, but he was... looked like he was really tired." (therapist stifles laugh) "And should, can you do CPR on someone on a plane like that, if they look like they're just really tired? And maybe dead?" [00:20:52]

So then, you know, the teacher is in the room, and says, "Well, sometimes people are afraid of flying, so they might take some medicine to relax them, and sometimes that's what happens." And I sort of look at the teacher and like, (laughs) like that knowing look like, "Sometimes I take a lot of medicines, sometimes they all meant that I was slow (inaudible)." Anyway, this woman's like, "Wonder where did that come from?" the kid, right?

"What if somebody gets shot in the heart? Can you use CPR on them?" (therapist responds) And I would say, "Yeah, you'd like, assess the scene, right? Make sure it's safe to approach." He raises his hand and said, "What if they have made a trap for you and it looks safe, but then you go in to a trap?" (therapist laughs) And I said, "Well, that's possible, but not likely to be the case here, in the United States. You have to sort of be aware of the situation, so if you feel like it's a situation where people are making traps, that's real; but usually, you know, what happens here in this country, you don't have to worry about that." [00:21:58]

I said, "Well, there are bad people in the world, we all know that, because of what happened in the marathon." (pause) And then you get these like, little smart kids, right? They're, it's like, "So when you exhale into someone's mouth, what percentage of the exhalation actually has oxygen?" Well, I thought, that's very true! It's an interesting, it's a very good question. So it's 18% is the answer, but it's funny...

THERAPIST: Is that right? [00:22:34]

CLIENT: ...because that little kid was... yeah, yeah. So breath in 21% and you exhale 18%. We only use a small fraction of the oxygen you breathe in. Most of what we breathe in is nitrogen. So anyway, so third graders; wow! (therapist responds) (pause) Anyway, so I taught that and I did (inaudible), and then I had to go over and I was going to meet with Miriam, who is one of the two teaching fellows for math. She's been extraordinarily helpful, although she's a little eccentric and odd, but I like her. She's very helpful. She's really good at math, and she's also the partner of Elliott, who teaches the course.

THERAPIST: Oh, you talked these two, yeah. And then there is the other guy who's the other, who's the more helpful, at least at that point.

CLIENT: At that point, yeah, John. He's, you know, he's only, he's 20, he's a senior. So he's a good, solid guy. But he's just, he's got his own stuff to do, right? So he always tries to be helpful, but he's distractive, you know, just limited time, because he's (inaudible) senior. So anyway, I met with her, and then afterwards, you know, she left and I'm sitting there, I still have a couple of hours before class begins, I'm sitting there. I don't know if you've been in the new Amherst Library, the new part of it? [00:23:56]

THERAPIST: I mean, I know it, I haven't been inside, but I've seen...

CLIENT: So, it's beautiful on the outside, the architecture is just fantastic and then... So, Miriam and I were there. So, I really like being there, just a great space, just so great. And, of course, because (inaudible) library, it's at Amherst, it really feels like the U.N., in all these sort of really positive ways. So, in after, like 3:00 in the afternoon, you've got all these sort of kids who are in some ways, sometimes I look and think they're there because it's sort of safe; parents want them to be there. But then, you have a lot of kids who are just doing their homework and there are these, you know, these students who really want to do well, and so they're studying for their AP classes and so forth. [00:24:50]

So, you've got all these tables, and people are huddled around, and people can talk. So it's really nice, since it's a library where in certain areas of it, you can just sort of talk, so it's like a coffee house. So, I'm sitting there and watching this, and you know, they're sometimes being goofy, but more, you know, basically they're studying. And there is this table, and there is this pair of girls, probably, you know, born in Africa, 14-15 years old, have the headdresses on, you know, conservative dress, and so it's like, yeah. So, these Muslim girls, 14-15, and they seemed happy and so forth. And then I noticed and they sort of, they looked at the magazine, and they're reading Cosmo, right?

And I thought, "Isn't that just great?" Right? I'm thinking, "What a touching, touching thing," right? And I really thought, this is just a beautiful thing, thinking they're curious, they're giggling, they're looking at it seriously, they're sort of slightly furtive about it, but it's like, they're at the library, Mom and Dad aren't around and there is all this information. And for them, wearing all their gear, looking at Cosmo. And so, of course, with Cosmo, there was some blondish woman on the front, I could see from a distance, and then in yellow letters, it said, "Sex, positions that drive him wild," right? As Cosmo always has... [00:26:29]

And I thought, isn't that interesting? Like, you know, back in their own country, they could be stoned for this, right? And here, it's like, that's the great thing about America, right? They have this freedom! They still could belong to this religious sensibility and have this family structure, and that's... possibly (inaudible) all kinds of positive ways, and yet they also have this ability to be looking at that, and sort of finding their way, right?

Anyway, so I was really charmed by it. I was just absolutely charmed by it; isn't that interesting? You know, so they like, put it down after, you know, whatever, ten minutes. And then they got up and like, got their backpacks and left. And then these Chinese girls, who had been studying something, they got up and they walked over to the table, they took another magazine, a fashion magazine. And they were like, going through it, and then the one girl said, "Oh, she's so pretty!" Then they put down the magazine and went back and they got their books and she was studying again. [00:27:39]

Isn't it interesting? Sort of like this giant living room (therapist responds) of people from all over the world and an interesting sort of, a commonality, right? You have Chinese students, or whatever we think of Chinese students doing something you know, math-y or science-y, I mean, they had calculators out, doing their thing, right? And you have the Muslim girls, whatever we think about Muslim girls, and you have both groups, looking at these glossy magazines. (therapist affirms) Be pretty and be attractive, and sex... Isn't that a very interesting thing, this sort of fundamental...

And in looking at it, it was all, from my perspective; it was just this very innocent good thing. It was like, people are people, people are good. (therapist responds) You know, like, so I'm sitting there, you know, off 30 feet from this, going through my math, and then beside me there was a group of people and they were... I don't know whether they were MIT students or whether they were... I think they were, because it's close, I think the MIT students just go to Amherst Library, just to get away from campus. [00:28:58]

They were, I think, preparing for like a poetry slam. So they were going through and reading poems. And then there was a guy there, who wasn't much older than they, who was their teacher. And he was like, coaching them on how to perform and how to use a microphone and each of them were giving positive feedback on each other's poems they were reading. So this one woman, I don't know, she was, I don't know like, 19-20. Now I'm right there, I'm writing and my pen, 16-prong, so it felt like (inaudible) everything for that week. And first of all, I thought, so I know what that's like, too, right? I know what that's like. I know what that's like, to do poetry, to be in that realm, be storytelling, and have that be the thing you want to do. [00:29:58]

But then I also think, we were there, there are always been like five, six girls and then this guy who was this... I think I know, but I know what that's like, I know what that's like to be a male teacher and have all these female students who... whatever is going on, they somehow like the attention, they like to be listened to, he is aware of that, he also probably likes it, but he's also trying to be the teacher. There is sort of like this awkward thing, and I'm thinking, "Hmm, I know kind of both sides of this in some way," right? And he's not making, he's not really that cogent.

Anyway, so this girl, she reads this poem. (pause) Anyway, something had to do, how she could somehow take the constipation of her heart and purge it from her anus. And that was like a repeated sort of idea throughout the poem. And I thought... "Wow!" Because they're all taking it very seriously, and they're all listening very intently. And I thought, "It's an interesting idea in some way," right? But, you know, as it's written, there is a self-consciousness about it, it's strange, like people are putting great meaning into these words. [00:31:32]

Somehow, maybe it was the distance, or being older, or I thought, "Yeah, it's kind of a young thing, in some ways." It's sort of an awkward expression, and it's over-loaded perhaps, and I thought it's interesting. I'm sitting here doing like, differential equations (therapist affirms), and I'm listening to poetry. I'm thinking I could very easily be sitting there as an English teacher, listening to that, and getting that, and how do you somehow facilitate that sort of conversation and be complimentary, but also try to... give constructive feedback.

And I thought, man! She really feels this a lot! I mean, what's going on inside her, that makes her want to say that? Because it's so evocative of something... It's a very odd image, it's a very strange image, that she was trying to develop. (therapist affirms) Anyway, so also here again, you've got these young women who are really pouring their hearts into these words. Yeah, and they go around, so I'm listening to all these poems. I think, "How would I handle that?" And he's not handling it super-well, but they like him. [00:32:58]

THERAPIST: He wasn't being kind of clear or, with his comments, or...?

CLIENT: Well... (pause) He wasn't being sort of professorial and he was being, he's wanting to be encouraging, and I think he didn't want to offend. Yet somehow it got personal, like somehow at some point. They asked, like where he went to school and he said, "BC." Then the one girl said, "They're all, they're mostly black!" said the one girl. They said, "Oh, are you Jewish?" And he goes, "Yes." And they're like, "No way!" And they're like talking about, "Oh we thought you were Italian!" "Oh, no, he looks like he's from South America!" Like, "Yeah, you've got dark skin!" Like, they had a little previews of like, as was already intended, to be honest. (ph) [00:33:53]

But he's like, then all of a sudden, like attention is on him, that he went to BC, that he's Jewish. I'm thinking, "It's okay to act in those situations, right?" (therapist responds) So (inaudible/blocked) all of a sudden, they find out something about you personally, and there is this weird sort of thing, where you feel like, "I don't want to talk about me!" And all of a sudden, it's really this uncomfortable thing. "I just want to be the teacher in front of the room, and I don't, I'm not wanting to be your guy's friends, and yet you guys are learning, you want to learn how to be adults." (therapist affirms)

There is this weird sort of thing. So, uh-oh, now he's talking about more than BC and being Jewish and they thought he was Italian or Peruvian. (pause) Anyway... So I thought, it's very interesting. I was just thinking, okay, here I am, watching the teacher feel awkward, and I'm watching students feel whatever energy they're feeling, and putting great meaning into, this is really their life, it seems, writing poems. I'm thinking, "We've all gone through, or at least a lot of us have, gone through that phase," right? Where we want to be understood, we want to somehow put things into words. (therapist responds) [00:35:14]

So they got up and left. And then I saw these Muslim girls. So then I looked, right. I wrote a poem and also, I took the pressure off thinking, "I'm not doing this, I'm not doing this like I would used to do it," where I'm putting great meaning in this, thinking this is really going to be something, right? And keeping a journal and keeping track of this stuff, thinking, "No, it's okay. Doesn't have to be perfect, I'm not, I don't have to put any pressure on myself, it doesn't have to be great. I'm just going to try and capture an image, that's it."

I'm not going to have to make every work perfect and make it really tight. It's like, "No; just get the idea there." If I am feeling later on like I want to refine it, great. (therapist affirms) But, yeah, this is good to remember, just remember these two girls sitting there, which I just was absolutely charmed by. And I was. [00:36:20]

THERAPIST: Wow, yeah. (pause) Well, yeah, and he, I guess with both the math and in some ways the poetry... I was thinking how you're trying to get at, you know, there are these kind of... in each subject, there are these ways that can be... I guess the way I was conceiving it, based upon maybe what we've spoken about in the past, that there can be kind of like proving grounds for a sense of like, kind of... belonging and (client affirms) are you a part of the club in some way.

In a way, it seems to me, with the math, is that you've been trying to get at something more essential about it for you. Yeah, obviously, it being not unimportant that you feel... you feel like some kind of collegiality, as opposed to a sense of being... I don't know, estranged from the group that understands, but... Now that you're in, you feel like, trying to get at the essence of things. And I was thinking about the poetry, too, in that way. That, yeah, it would be like... How do you want to sound, and how is it coming across, where are you trying to go, but... I was thinking about your poem being about just trying to get at the essence of what poetry is, which is to describe something, describe something the way... Don't worry about the words, what it sounds like, necessarily. I mean, not that there is not importance to that. [00:38:13]

CLIENT: Sedaris was on Fresh Air.

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: David Sedaris was on Fresh Air a couple of weeks ago. I was sitting in the parking lot before going into the grocery store, listening to him. So I sat there for a long time, listening to the interview, because I didn't want to not listen to it. He's come out with a new book and it's more serious, in the sense that he's written some things that are less complimentary about his father, who always comes off as being gruff, but now it seems a little less friendly.

Like, today was Sedaris was talking about how his father would look at him as a kid and go, "You're nothing but a big zero!" And Terry Gross said, "Wow!" Of course, they introduced Sedaris as this, high-pitched voice. He goes, "You know, I didn't, at the time, I didn't feel like he was being that mean. You know, he'd also say, too," he goes, "You know, you should play guitar. Everyone loves someone who plays guitar. You go to a party, and play guitar, everyone loves you!" He goes, "And of course, I heard that and of course, I never wanted to play guitar, because my dad suggested it." And he said, "What I realized in retrospect is my dad realized that I was this completely socially awkward strange person with all kinds of tics, and I was just an odd bird. Back then, it didn't even occur to them that anybody could be gay, but they knew I was weird," right? (therapist affirms) [00:39:48]

"So it was my dad's way of thinking, 'David's got to somehow face reality and also have some sort of skill that he can make it in the world and be liked, because he's a weird kid! Let's just face facts! He's a weird kid!'" And so David Sedaris then went on to say, you know, "So, sometimes, he wasn't that nice." But he said, "I think you only really need one loving parent, and my mom was really loving. So she was plenty kind to me." (pause) How interesting, right? And I thought, that's really fascinating to... You know, as long as you have parent who's really loving, you can afford to have one that is really critical, as long as it's being critical in a way that is not abusive, I guess. So he was honest... [00:40:42]

THERAPIST: Destructive in some way...

CLIENT: Right, right. But, I mean, I'm not going to, I mean, I'm sure that there is some sort of indelible aspect if your father's calling you a big zero. (therapist affirms) But further on, he went on to talk about how he's (inaudible) journal since 1978 and... or a diary, a diary, because in a journal, somehow is this idea of ideas, right? You write ideas. He goes, "But a journal, rather with a diary, it's like your hopes, your desires, and you lock it up and don't want anybody to see it." So I can get a diary, right?

And so he says, "So what I do, is I go up in my room and I just take notes, you know, throughout the day, and the next morning, I'd wake up, and I will write in my diary, based on notes from the previous day." (pause) So anyway, I thought, "That's interesting," right? Just taking notes, which, you know, I have gone through large periods of life where I've done exactly that, when I just start taking notes. But here, seeing someone who has this routine of taking notes and then waking up and then writing, based on the previous day, as opposed to being (inaudible) and doing it, right? Except when you're reflecting back and putting it in the diary. [00:41:58]

Anyway, so as I was writing this yesterday, I thought, "Yeah. I'm (inaudible) the idea of perfection, enjoy the process and really, it's like taking notes. It's like taking notes. And I like, I like that. I thought, this is closer to the real me, right? Because math is entirely in my head. There is a gut-level feeling about like, the act of doing math. But writing and expressing things, that's like being alive in the sense of observing and paying attention to the actual moment and making a memory. I don't know. So, I mean... It's not anything that hasn't been discussed before, but is a whole level of discourse into the nature of... the two realms of thinking. [00:43:09]

THERAPIST: Well... but, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you started, I guess, by saying like, that it's been hard to have an area, I mean, given like... how much work goes into the math and the way just, that your mind works these days, it's hard to have room for anything else, to switch. I was just thinking about how you've been talking about this, this way that, kind of a... writing and poetry and romanticism in some ways has been entering into the scene. And not, it doesn't sound like taking away from, you're not taking away from.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so. It's somehow... Well, I guess I... yeah, maybe it's more integrated in some way. It doesn't feel like they are completely too different circles and there is no overlap. (therapist affirms) I mean, there is overlap in a Venn diagram, and it's okay. One could live in that little one. One could go back and forth, right? (therapist affirms) There is a conduit or... (pause) I feel like I've rambled for an hour! I feel like, you know, (therapist responds) I'm just tired and I just like... [00:44:55]

THERAPIST: We're going to stop in a minute, but what about it?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. I feel like, okay, I'm going to leave here, I'm going to make photocopies of my homework (because I always make photocopies because, God help me, if it gets lost! So I make photocopy of my homework, which is always, you know, many pages. So, you know, that's four bucks, making a copy). And of course, Science Center drop off, job done, head back home. And not really feeling like going back home, but I guess I will. And then, thinking, "Well, there is the hockey game tonight." But being too tired, I wouldn't be into it. (therapist responds) Yeah, so I guess it's one of those days, right? Just low energy, low energy. And that's just comes from staying up too late. Because after class, then you're just so revved up, you know. [00:46:00]

THERAPIST: How do you feel about, this feeling of rambling? What about...?

CLIENT: Yeah, the feeling of rambling, well, it just feels... like it's not me actively doing any sort of synthesis, where I'm actually putting ideas together, necessarily, in a very focused way. I mean, this energy is quite different from being engaged in something painful or problem solving. It's very different from the energy of earlier, before coming here, actually creating a vector field for a particular problem (therapist affirms) and doing a lot of calculations and working, working, working on that, thinking, "Well..." That energy, or that skill set... I don't know, I mean, I'm not even, I mean, I feel in code (ph) right now, I mean... [00:47:10]

THERAPIST: It's like you're not bringing that in, that kind of... that disappointed that you're here today?

CLIENT: Yeah, well, also it just feels like, you know, I have not, even to, for some reason, not even been able to grab words, you know. In fact, I can't string sentences together and any sort of coherent way. You know, and I know I have strong opinions. Like I was reading, I was before in the waiting room, I was reading about, you know, this prisoner being buried in a Muslim cemetery. And, you know, people are, this whole foment, right? Protesting and so forth, about him being at the funeral home and I'm thinking, "I don't feel it. I get it, I appreciate it, I get the politics of it, I get the rationale perhaps of why they didn't intervene, because it's somehow useful in some way." Actually, it's very interesting to observe people not wanting to have someone who's a terrorist buried somewhere, and anyone could very easily stepped in and had him buried somewhere; they didn't on purpose. [00:48:14]

So appreciating that and appreciating both sides of it and then he's finally buried and... reading that and not being too, you know, I had strong feelings about it, but thinking, now he's in the ground and... I don't know. Just sort of watching, it's like watching, just sort of watching that. (therapist affirms) It's sort of not feeling in, not feeling riled up and appreciating all the sides of it and (therapist affirms).

I don't know, but you know, but that painting (ph), (inaudible) like I'm not feeling... well, I guess that's a new gloss on that, right? So she could be sitting there, sort of happily being rather tired, maybe she just got finished, you know, creating another vector field (chuckles), right? And she's just sort of like, tired and she's like, looking out the window and watching the world and she's just sort of like tired and... room (inaudible) at her house. (laughs) Yeah, she's just chillin'. I don't know. But usually that's not my opinion of her. Usually, I feel like she's, like intense. [00:49:26]

THERAPIST: Intense? That's interesting!

CLIENT: Intensely considering something of great magnitude.

THERAPIST: Huh! Huh!

CLIENT: And she's in her own inner world and she's really... in that realm of considering memories, the past, the future and existential crisis, and disappointment, and all that. But yeah, I don't know. Maybe she's just like... happy and relaxed (therapist affirms), I don't know. Maybe, I don't know, maybe you can't see her hands, maybe she's drinking a Budweiser, I don't know! (laughs) Not of aluminum, right? She's really, she's just, I don't know, maybe she's drinking a Pabst! That's right, we used to get it low gravity (ph). (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I remember. One of those pony bids? (client laughs) (pause) All right! See you next week! Yeah.

END TRANSCRIPT