TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. (pause)

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you. (pause)

CLIENT: So I was wondering about what we discussed last time on Friday. I guess instead of saying I got what I deserved, maybe I should say I got what I wanted. (laughs) Like I think subconsciously, or maybe not even so subconsciously, like one part of me is quite aware of what I'm doing and perhaps, you know, wants to do what I'm doing. (sigh) [00:01:38]

And the other part is so ashamed of that, you know, the part that's maybe more real and judgmental is kind of taking the first part to task.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (laughs) A little bit. (pause) Yeah, I mean I guess in the back of my head I wanted to kind of, you know, explore. And let me know if I'm making excuses again. (laughs) But like I guess I wanted to explore like what it feels like to have like a Bohemian friend. (sniffs) You know? And a friend who was, you know, only interested in sleeping with me instead of anything more than anything else.

And I'm interested in all the other stuff. You know, the buildup before that, because that's the bit that I don't get from Chris (ph). So maybe I'm, you know, aware. Maybe I'm not that naive. That I know that, "Okay, this guy, you know, he wants ultimately that. But, so we'll see if it gets to that." And it didn't. (laughs) You know, because he sabotaged his own seduction by being so negative. Right? [00:03:02]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I wanted that. I wanted to be taken out and like (sigh), yeah. And I guess I also didn't care if it ended badly.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I mean I guess I knew the worst that would happen is that I would lose this friend. I mean, of course I didn't want that to happen, but I think I stopped caring for Graham long ago. Like he hurt me. Like when I first met him he said he had a crush on me but I had a boyfriend at that time. But I could just pick that this is not a guy I would want to be with. You know, because he was ten years older and all that.

And I was much younger then, so it's like But I still knew like, and I think I was starting to have interest in him and he was just kind of was flakey himself, even though he called everyone else flakey. Anyway, I'm getting away from the So, I guess what I'm thinking is I knew I wanted this and I went ahead and I got it. [00:04:12]

And then, you know, I'm like, (sigh) I guess last week I was a little surprised and shocked when he did break off the friendship. You know? (sniffs) Do you think it's helpful to say, "I got what I wanted," instead of saying, "I got what I deserved?"

THERAPIST: I'm trying to think of the helpful part.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They each speak to a particular kind of psychological state.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And they both have truth to them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I was commenting on your saying that about, "You got what you deserved," not because I didn't think it was helpful. I was commenting on a particular kind of psychological state.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where that was your retribution for having done wrong.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that was a psychological state you were feeling. And today it seems like you've, or over the weekend also, you reflected on what it means what you did, and maybe there was a part of you that wanted that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so it speaks to that psychological state. [00:05:18]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean like, yeah. You're putting it very nicely. (laughs) Yeah, so the part that wants retribution on myself I think infantilizes me a little bit and makes me feel a little helpless. Right?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So I'm wondering if I just get the two parts of myself, the wild part and the judgmental part to talk to each other (laughs) and be, you know, kinder to each other.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And not have a wall between them. And like, well one part doesn't know what the other part is doing. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So I just wondered. Like and stop lying to myself a little bit. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: That would be, it's help that's probably Then I'll stop obfuscating and like be a little clearer in my head. (pause) Yeah. (sigh) It's nice to be on your own. I mean, (laughs) I was on my own this weekend. So like I didn't make much progress with work, but like it gives you certain clarity. You know? It makes you like come to terms with certain things. (sniffs) [00:06:46]

And like so I think from our conversation last week, the thing that really makes me want to explore more of this with you. It's like, you know, the reasons why I hate Chris (ph). (laughs) Like this tissue (ph) is really bad for my back. (laughs) Yeah, the reasons why I hate Chris (ph). Like that is the reason why I don't want to move forward with him.

And, I mean, like Sorry, I'm trying to (inaudible at 00:07:39) (laughs, pause) Yeah, so what you said that, you know, he's more successful than me. Right? Or superior to me. And I feel jealous or I hate him because of that. (sniffs)

THERAPIST: I never said he's more successful than you. You feel he's more successful than you.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's what I feel. I think you said he's superior.

THERAPIST: I think I used the word superior though. You're right.

CLIENT: What did you mean by that?

THERAPIST: You feel him to be superior. I guess successful goes into that. But then superior has also some other connotations besides successful.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: He's better than.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Superior intellect, superior motivations, superior discipline, superior status.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I just wondered like if I could get over that. (laughs) I'm becoming very much like that. I feel like anyone I meet and then I ask them personal questions, and then if I find something they have that I don't I automatically feel something inside me go, "Oh! Okay." You know? "You're better." (laughs) [00:08:58]

Like I take this stance of rebellion slash judgmental. Like I have to prove myself that I'm better. Or I have prove that your standards don't apply to me. You know, if you're richer than me that just means that you're, you know, a horrible capitalist. And like, you know. (laughs) Yeah. You know?

It makes it hard to like people. I have to like bring them down a little bit. Like I have to humanize them. I have to find that story in their life that makes them seem human. You know, like so Chris (ph) had cancer as a child. So I keep thinking of that story to make him and his mom look less. [00:10:02]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know, they look vulnerable and like people I can relate to and feel sympathy for. Because I feel like I can't sympathize otherwise. You know?

THERAPIST: What kind of cancer did Chris (ph) have?

CLIENT: Oh just a tiny like tumor. He was like eight or something. (sniffs) But it was found quickly and taken care of and Why?

THERAPIST: I'm just wondering. You never mentioned it before. I didn't know how much of a part of his childhood it was.

CLIENT: Maybe like a year or so. Yeah, you know he lost his hair because of chemo.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So, (sniffs) but that was a short amount of time. He's very humble about it. He's like, "Oh, yeah, my Mom had to deal with all of it." (laughs) "I didn't really have to." But I keep thinking of that and like so I can sympathize with him. You know? (laughs, pause) [00:11:18]

Something you said earlier that everyone has experienced sorrow. I don't have like a specialty (sniffs) in having experienced sorrow. You know? That's not my expertise. (laughs) So I was wondering if I could stop thinking in those terms. You know? Deprivation and like not having had stuff and what not. And that makes me act like, or feel inferior and, therefore, rebellious. And therefore -

THERAPIST: Jealous.

CLIENT: Yeah, and jealous.

THERAPIST: You can experience jealousy very acutely. They have something that I want.

CLIENT: Yeah. (sniffs) (pause) I don't know what the solution is. Maybe just feeling pride in what in what I have. [00:12:37]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Right? But I don't feel, I don't feel it. Like Chris (ph) was saying yesterday that he derives a lot of sense of worth from working. I really don't think in those terms.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't think in terms of worth. What is worth? What does it feel like? I don't know.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Do I really not know?

THERAPIST: Maybe you don't. I don't know.

CLIENT: Have I ever spoken about in those terms? Like worth? I don't think so.

THERAPIST: You think about what that could mean.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You don't always refer to it to yourself. Although you think about treating yourself more generously or with more generosity. I think that is related to worth.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Why would you be generous to something that's worthless?

CLIENT: That's true. (sniffs)

THERAPIST: But you're wondering about it. Like this concept feels a little different.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like I don't have experience with it. [00:13:52]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I feel, this may not be worth, but like I feel a sense of power a little bit. And when like guys like me or express interest in me. (laughs) So, yeah. There's like that high you get for like a few minutes or maybe longer. (laughs) I don't know if that is worth. You know? (laughs)

And I think we've talked about how I feel very uncomfortable when people compliment me. So if that might be related to not knowing what self worth means.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (pause) I feel like I don't know what to do with, you know, when people, "Oh, you did this well. You did that well." And I immediately look for excuses and say, "Oh that's nothing," this and that. And I guess it's good to try to be humble, but I don't know if I'm actually humble. (laughs) [00:15:17]

THERAPIST: Mm. What do you think you are actually?

CLIENT: Confused and messed up. (laughs) Wanting to get attention and then when I get it I don't know how to behave. (laughs, sigh, long pause) I guess worthy means something like you earn it. [00:16:34]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Right? If you're worth something that means like it's an equation. Like you equals something. Or if someone is given If I say, "You're worthy of that." That means that you earned it. Right?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You put forward certain effort and that equaled what I give you. Right?

THERAPIST: I have to I'm thinking. I'm processing it. I guess that assumes though that worth is based on merit.

CLIENT: It shouldn't be?

THERAPIST: I don't know what it should or shouldn't be. (laughs) I'm trying to understand your way of thinking about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But then the question is, what does it mean if someone just has intrinsic value? Is it that they've merited that value or do they just have intrinsic value or intrinsic worth? [00:17:41]

CLIENT: That would be talent.

THERAPIST: It's still very performative of a definition.

CLIENT: Well, it's Chris's (ph), it's not mine. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Are we here to work on Chris's (ph) definition of things?

CLIENT: No, we're here to work on mine. But mine are coming from somewhere.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)

CLIENT: I can see that I said that because I'm familiar with that. Like I've heard people say, "Oh you're talented," and this and that. And I've been okay with that because it's something intrinsic. It's something that I'm lucky to have. But it also at the same time makes me feel like, "Oh! You know, I could go either way. I could not realize my talent or I could." [00:18:44]

And, you know, that is too scary to think about. So it's just like, okay, I'm just like I have talent and I don't know what to do with it. (laughs) You know?

THERAPIST: What about the woman who made you pie?

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: It sounds like she has intrinsic worth in her ability to make other people feel good.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: Is that a talent? A talent sounds so performance based.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: A talent is something that can help you to do something well. It's performance based. Whereas her worth in making other people feel warm is not quite a performance. It's something more intrinsic.

CLIENT: It's not performative? I mean she has to work, like has to do those things. She has to make the pie or buy it and put it on the plate and say those things.

THERAPIST: Right, but maybe someone could make pie and not give you that same feeling. I don't think it's about making the pie. It's about I guess I'm sort of wondering whether we could think of value as something more intrinsic to the person. [00:19:58]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And not simply something that they can then do something with in order to accomplish. Your definitions are still very accomplishment based.

CLIENT: Mm. So you mean they run the risk of -

THERAPIST: I hadn't thought about it running the risk of. I guess if we put it that way, I guess it runs the risk of sort of having an extreme evaluative aspect to it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Then your value has to be evaluated in order to determine if it's really value.

CLIENT: Like if you don't do something then you don't have that worth?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. From your definition if it's all performance based.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're either, you know, performing well, exceeding expectations or under performing.

CLIENT: That's actually how I judge people.

THERAPIST: I know.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I mean is being a good person a talent? You know, for example.

CLIENT: Being a good person very complicated. (laughs)

THERAPIST: It is.

CLIENT: But like I think it depends on what you're doing at that moment or that week. [00:21:13]

THERAPIST: Maybe you're just being a good person.

CLIENT: (laughs) That's not useful, you sitting around being a good person (laughs) in your own home. Right? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Useful to whom?

CLIENT: To the society. To me.

THERAPIST: Well hopefully you're ready (ph) to be useful to other people, but you're also doing for your own I have to sneeze. (sneezes)

CLIENT: Bless you.

THERAPIST: accommodations.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: You know, acclamations and so forth. So if you're doing something for your own, to be acclaimed or appraised, is that useful? It's useful to you. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm just begging, I'm just sort of looking at the issue of, well, what if you're not being useful? There's a lot of things that you would like to do that are not necessarily useful in and of themselves.

CLIENT: I want to scream right now! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Chris (ph) is in my head! (laughs) [00:22:18]

THERAPIST: Chris (ph) is in your head?

CLIENT: Yeah! Take him out! (laughs)

THERAPIST: What made you think of that at this moment? How is he in your head right now?

CLIENT: Well, the whole thing of being useful or not, it's totally his! Like I've started judging people like that!

THERAPIST: Why do you like this?

CLIENT: Did he come out? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Like, you know, if you shake your head like kind of you're getting water out, maybe he won't be stuck in your head. Maybe he'll come out your ear canal.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: No I think he's really entrenched in there.

THERAPIST: He's just lodged in there a little better than that.

CLIENT: (sigh) Clingy fellow. (laugh)

THERAPIST: Sorry, what?

CLIENT: I said, "Clingy Fellow." (laughs) No I was just thinking of my Mom when you said that. And like that's how I judge her. Like, "Okay, so what have you done this week that is worth my liking, you know, you?" or, you know. Like it felt weird yesterday. Like it was it was Mother's Day and then I'm thinking, "Pfft."

You know, she hasn't been a Mom to me for a while now. (laughs) Forgetting all the nice things that she does. And, again, like this performative thing that you're saying. I should celebrate her just because. You know? I bought her flowers and stuff and it was like so weird and like unemotional. Like just handing it to her and like, "Okay." (laughs) [00:23:46]

But the person I did feel who had mothered me was, you know, the pie woman and I wrote her.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I made her a little card, bought her a little card and I wrote her stuff. But then again, that's a very performance based thing when I'm like, "Okay, who's " I mean, obviously I should thank that woman. But it shouldn't be like this comparative thing. Right? Like with my mother who hasn't been able to be what I think is motherly. You know?

Like, yeah, it makes me unhappy when I judge people like that. I see what you're saying about like just sitting and being a good person. I do see those people and I like them just because I like them. Like this other friend of mine with whom I had a fight and made up with. I know she doesn't like me as much as I like her. And, again, I shouldn't think this way. [00:25:01]

So, I mean I just like her. She is a sunny person and, you know, I like seeing her. She doesn't have to do anything. She doesn't have to give me anything. And I sometimes fall in that trap where, you know, I was like, "Hey, let's go to the mall next weekend. I'll be done with my finals and we can hang." Because she's been wanting to go to the mall. And she said, "No. I'm busy."

And that kind of hurt me for a little bit. And then I was like, "Wait a second. Why?" You know? Like she has her own thing. You know, it's okay. (laughs) So this whole need based, performance based thing, I feel is a trap that I don't want to fall into.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I do all the time. (laughs) And I apply that same standard to myself all the time. Where, you know, it's like, "Okay, so I didn't get as much done today. I am a hopeless, worthless person." (laughs) [00:26:07]

THERAPIST: Yes. Right. It's about your being good or bad or valuable or not, based on performance.

CLIENT: Yeah. How do I change that? (laughs) How do I try and be kind to myself and to people even though they haven't done anything to deserve that? You know? (long pause) So I guess I do derive a sense of worth from working. I just don't know it. I mean on days that I work well, I feel good. That must be worth. [00:27:21]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Right? (sniffs, laughs)

THERAPIST: I think you do. I think in lieu of that, when you feel like you haven't had a good day, then you feel terrible about yourself. So the worth is entirely, you know, performance based.

CLIENT: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm sorry to be pointing fingers, (laughs) but I feel like it is Chris's (ph) kind of. Maybe I shouldn't say that. (laughs) Maybe it's entirely my own.

THERAPIST: You weren't sorry about pointing fingers before. You were very happy to point fingers.

CLIENT: (laughs) Now I feel like, "Okay, maybe I should stop." Maybe I should stop blaming him. I do that a lot. (laughs)

THERAPIST: But in it being Chris's (ph) fault it's as if you're helpless about who does or doesn't influence you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're just like a little kid who could easily get influenced, so it's his fault. He influenced you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I do get easily influenced. That's always been the case from the beginning. (inaudible at 00:28:32) like, wait, I have my own judgments and I'm very stubborn. So shouldn't I use that to weigh my influences and take what I like? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: (sniffs) You know, this performance based thing is totally so that I can work faster or, you know, like be more dedicated. So I mean I have adopted that so that it's of use to me.

THERAPIST: How do you mean so that you can work faster?

CLIENT: Well, like having a goal to work every day and basing my self worth on that so that I can be more productive.

THERAPIST: I think that is an illusion.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I think it's an illusion to feel that if you have zero worth and then you gain worth by working, that somehow that's the motivation you need to work. And without it you wouldn't have motivation. I think that's an illusion.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: You could also feel that you have intrinsic value and whatever stems from you and grows from you and is created by you has a value. That could be motivation to work too. [00:29:56]

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: You don't necessarily need to be at a zero sum and then try to up your worth.

CLIENT: Yeah. You mean the work itself has value.

THERAPIST: Well, no, actually that you have value.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: And that What you're saying is that if you don't feel like you have any value and you have to earn it, then you'll be motivated to work.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that's a vary sort of one definition of motivation and one idea of motivation.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: As if if you didn't feel really good about yourself all the time I don't know if anyone feels really good about themselves all the time. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But if you didn't feel good about yourself all the time, you know, that somehow you wouldn't be motivated to work. You'd just, I don't know, sit around and stare at the paint dry or something.

CLIENT: Hm. (pause) I mean I think we've talked about it before. It's like I guess I don't do it all the time. (laughs, pause) [00:31:08]

So is this related to the jealousy bit? Like self worth is performative and some other person performs more than me, you know, has more worth and it's, you know, comparative, then obviously I'll feel, or maybe not so obviously, I'll feel jealous.

Instead of feeling that I have self worth too even though I may not have worked as hard. You know? (sigh) I just wonder. (long pause) Yeah, because basically like it's like I feel like at the heart of my issues with Chris (ph) is that I'm just very insecure. (laughs) So I guess I want to try to understand that. [00:32:52]

THERAPIST: Yeah. How do you feel that that's at the heart of your issues?

CLIENT: Because people have observed this about me and that's the word they use and that's what they say. So I feel like, "Okay, that validates (ph) it." (laughs) You don't think that of me?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: No?

THERAPIST: Mm mm.

CLIENT: Oh!

THERAPIST: Actually, I'm not sure what that even means, "the heart of your issues." Does that mean that that's what creates problems in your relationship, that you're insecure? I guess I don't know what "the heart of the "

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: You know, I'm not sure what that means.

CLIENT: Mm. Our biggest issue?

THERAPIST: I don't know. Biggest problem? Like if you were not insecure you would have a great relationship?

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: Do that way to be true?

CLIENT: I don't know. (laughs)

THERAPIST: You've also said the opposite. That if you were more secure you'd realize you don't need him and you'd go pursue something that might be a better match for what you want and need. So you've said the opposite too. [00:34:00]

CLIENT: I'm totally confused. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Are you saying that in general or are you confused about what I just said?

CLIENT: No, in general. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I see what you're saying and I'm like, "Oh God!" This is like unresolvable.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Well that's what people see and I'm like, "Okay, that must be true." Then I'm like, I don't know. (pause) I guess they don't see the whole picture. They don't know that I've said to you that if I was secure then I would realize I don't need Chris (ph). (laughs, pause) But it is true, right? I'm very insecure. (laughs) I don't know! (laughs) [00:35:20]

THERAPIST: I'm very cautious in here to not define you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: To let you define you.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: Facilitated by my thoughts and ideas, which I guess provides some sort of definition. But -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm not here to tell you who you are. Which is what you sort of fear and feel with Chris (ph). That he's telling you who you are. That it makes you do things because Chris (ph) is inside your head.

CLIENT: Hm. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That he literally is defining you and shaping your brain.

CLIENT: Yeah. But sometimes I like it when he defines me.

THERAPIST: Absolutely. Which is why you do it with me too.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I mean you seek that out. You seek me to put my ideas in your head, lodge them in your head.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: And define things for you and tell you what kind of person you are. You absolutely seek it out.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I mean there's a part of you that seeks it out absolutely.

CLIENT: (laughs) Well it feels so good and validating.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because he's like, "You're such a " You know, "You're talented and you're doing important work. Go do it." And that makes me feel really good. [00:36:30]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know? (laughs) Like having it come from outside it's like clear. You know? It's so clear.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Because there are so many things inside your head and you lose track, you lose focus. I mean everyone seeks that out, right? Everyone finds that validating.

THERAPIST: Sure. But about ten or fifteen minutes you were very upset that Chris (ph) was stuck inside your head.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You were very upset.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You said, "I got this whole evaluation and performance based value from him and he's stuck inside my head."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "And that's why I hate him."

CLIENT: I didn't say I hate him.

THERAPIST: Well you said you hated him last week, but maybe not for that.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, for having more than me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don't know if these two are connected though. (pause) Are they? (laughs)

THERAPIST: We'll have to find out. [00:37:39]

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs, pause) How do we find out? (laughs) No, what bit should I explore? What thought? (pause)

THERAPIST: What would happen if there wasn't someone telling you what to do next?

CLIENT: I'd panic and I'd sit around and waste some time. And, you know, do things that everyone who is lost does. You know, sort of the way I am with Chris (ph). And then I'd find some inspiration and then I'd chase it down.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: That doesn't sound so bad.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. You said, "If no one told me what to do," right? [00:38:44]

THERAPIST: Yeah. What would happen if no one told you what to do? Because I was just finding specific things in the session. You said to me, "How are these two things connected?" You know, "How should we figure this out?" Which I translated as, "Tell me what to do next."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I said, "Okay. What would it be like if someone wasn't telling you what to do?"

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean there'd be some getting lost in the beginning and then you find a thread and you pursue it. (pause, sniffs, pause)

THERAPIST: I think Chris (ph) feels lost too.

CLIENT: Oh?

THERAPIST: I think Chris (ph) holds on to these particular sort of ways of defining himself in terms of his career, his profession, and sort of just the structure and rigidity of his life as a way not to experience feeling lost. Like I think he hangs his hat on a lot of sort external structure. Because I imagine that without it he would feel lost as well. [00:39:57]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, he says right now he's just so busy and doing things not because he likes them, but otherwise he won't have anything to do. Which is pretty scary for him.

THERAPIST: How are things staying busy for him as a type of distraction?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But he said that. I mean he said what you just said.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) And I mean he realizes that it's kind of bad, actually. It's just like, "Wow, I made progress this weekend. " [I should realize that] (ph) being busy is actually bad for you. Because like for me wanting to be creative, you cannot be I mean I'm realizing, that's why I'm hoping this is some sort of an answer, you know, like my way of doing things. [00:41:03]

But I cannot be busy, I realize. I cannot be judgmental, i.e., like have a performative definition, because like for ideas, good ideas, creative ideas to come and go they have to feel, there has to be like a looser space. And there has to be a lot of down time where you're just sitting in front of the river and just staring. You know?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I think. And everyone needs that. Chris (ph) needs it too. (laughs) He's just realizing that. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

CLIENT: Right? (laughs) I have to take a poll and make sure that what I've just thought of is not ridiculous. You're nodding so I guess it's not that ridiculous. [00:42:13]

THERAPIST: I think it's a nice way of putting it. I like the imagery of a looser space.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because busyness creates a lot of static.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Static like on the TV when there's static.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: It's sort of a lot of noise that's distracting, but you can't hear yourself. There's no clarity.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I feel like a nonjudgmental space is what is required for the flow of ideas. But I mean judgmental is necessary. It's just like, it's I guess that art just feels like the two sides always competing. And without the judgment you might produce crap. And then you'd be like, "Oh, this is so great." (laughs) But with the judgment on all the time then you won't produce anything or finish anything. I don't know. [00:43:31]

I guess I see that but I don't see the bit about not feeling towered over by Chris (ph). (laughs) That piece is still there. (pause) I mean if you feel like someone is above you, why would you want to get close to them? Right?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Right? (pause)

THERAPIST: Unless you feel you'll be sort of pulled up in their orb and you'll get status through your association. But that's not exactly closeness though.

CLIENT: What is it? Climbing?

THERAPIST: It doesn't seem like the motivation is to be close. It seems like the motivation is something else. You know being with someone above you gets you to feel a certain way about yourself. It doesn't seem like you want to be close to that person, you want to get something from that relationship. [00:44:42]

CLIENT: Yeah. I think that's what I'm doing with Chris (ph).

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: I mean over the years I've grown to love him. But I just don't know if that is (laughs) Yeah.

THERAPIST: [What are those phases?] (ph).

CLIENT: Like, "Oops." (laughs)

THERAPIST: Oops?

CLIENT: (laughs) Eek! But -

THERAPIST: Well "oops" is like, "Oh I spilled a little milk."

CLIENT: Trivialized. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's like a little mistake.

CLIENT: I trivialize myself I guess. (laughs, pause) Mm. Yeah. But like don't all relationships You know -

THERAPIST: Just a second. We have another minute.

CLIENT: I mean all relationships start this way where you feel like you can get something from that person. (sigh) [00:45:55]

THERAPIST: I guess it depends on what "get something from them "

CLIENT: Hm?

THERAPIST: I guess it depends what you mean by "getting something."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What is it you're getting and what's the something. It depends on how you define that, I think.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: But, yeah, we do need to stop for today. So I'll see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And I have you down on Friday for ten.

CLIENT: Ten.

THERAPIST: Alright. Take care.

CLIENT: You too.

END TRANSCRIPT