TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

CLIENT: Can I let you know about Friday, if I can come in tomorrow, or is that -

THERAPIST: Yeah, what are your thoughts? My schedule is very, very tight, so -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, what are your thoughts about Friday? [00:00:58]

CLIENT: I was just wondering. I have a paper due on Friday and a project, and I just, I'm struggling with both of them. So I just wondered if instead of coming here, I could just work on that. But hopefully I can help my progress today and tomorrow, so. You said 11:00 for Friday, right?

THERAPIST: I have you in for 10:00.

CLIENT: Ten, okay.

THERAPIST: I could double-check, but I think it's for 10:00, yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. So is it okay if I let you know tomorrow, or no?

THERAPIST: No, you did I need to know today. I would definitely need to know today, because yeah, because my schedule is so tight, and I have people waiting.

CLIENT: Oh, okay.

THERAPIST: So if you don't need that. I mean, I'd like to see you and we could talk about it, but if you don't need that time, I'd really appreciate not last minute notice. [00:02:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Okay. I guess I could come in. I just, this week, I guess I feel like I want to focus more on work for just a couple days because that's all I have because therapy kind of does in a way make me very self-conscious. (laughter)

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: I am conscious about everything. Like I interact with people, so I get, I guess, I'm conscious about my interaction, so. But hopefully I won't interact with that many people. (chuckle) I always say that, and then I seek out company. So (chuckle) [00:03:09]

(pause)

THERAPIST: And do you feel like your interactions in general make you less able to work?

CLIENT: No, I just seek them out instead of sitting and working, but then, yeah. So I don't know. Yeah, I guess, I mean I do set targets, but then I don't know how realistic they are, and then when I cannot meet them and I feel like, oh, no, you know. What am I doing? And then I just have to get over feeling bad, and then make new targets. (laughter) So, I don't know. I've never done this before so I really don't know how it's done, you know. [00:04:25]

(pause) It's new for every person, which is weird, you know. The human experience. (chuckle) Like, you're supposed to have your own original feelings about everything, and that. And last night, or I think it was this morning, I was having a dream. It was weird. It wasn't weird, just a mild event. Like, what was it? I can't remember all of it now, but I think we were all at a reading or something, or maybe it was a workshop, but Victor (sp) was there, and he was reading, and the understanding was that he's so much better, or he is just as good at writing, and then I woke up, and it's like, huh. He's beating me at my own game, or you know. Like it only took him a few hours to focus, and then produce something really good. (laughter) [00:06:13]

So I was wondering why I have that that I think that way. Maybe everyone thinks that way, like they feel like, you know, other people will surpass them, but they already know someone else's success directly means your failure, you know. I wonder why I have that kind of equation. [00:06:55]

I mean, I just wonder if it's peculiar to me, or if everyone feels that way, and they're just going to gloss over it, or if I feel that way more than usual. I think it's kind of related to my sense of deprivation or something. I only have very little bit so how can you take it? How can you have it too, or this is mine. I don't know. Maybe I think that I have it in abundance, you know, like it won't run out. (chuckle) Then I'll be generous to myself and everyone, you know. [00:08:01]

(pause)

THERAPIST: What made you think about asking my permission?

CLIENT: For what?

THERAPIST: To not come on Friday?

CLIENT: No, I just, I wanted to know if you had some sort of a notice I should give you. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And, you know, if, you know, by tomorrow it would be too late, and it's too late. (chuckle) That's all. I mean, I could've just said less truthfully, "Oh, I cannot come on Friday," sorry. But I don't know if you would've gotten upset. [00:09:17]

THERAPIST: And what would I be upset about?

CLIENT: Well, cancelling. Don't people get upset when people cancel on them?

THERAPIST: Do you feel upset when people cancel on you?

CLIENT: Yeah, all the time.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know.

CLIENT: You know? (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Sorry, I don't -

THERAPIST: You take it very personally.

CLIENT: Yeah. I was I have this e-mail from nine years ago, when Chris and I first started talking, and a couple days before the day before my birthday party, he said, "I cannot come. Sorry." And I was like, you know what, I made all this vegetarian food for you, and this and that, and I've never celebrated my birthday. But my birthday's were full of mom trying to get me a cake or something, and my dad finding an excuse to ruin the whole day, and this and that, and it hurts you're not coming. (laughter) [00:10:27]

So I was just wondering what made me think that way, like immediately. Disappointment or rejections immediately made me run to my past, or if not just the past, then just have this narrative of deprivation, like I haven't had this. Like, I couldn't think that I may have lots of birthday parties in the future, you know. And every year well, not every year, well, most several years I've celebrated Chris's birthday. His and my birthday are seven days apart, so I always put on a big show for him, invite all his friends, and plan days in advance. Oh, god. I don't have anything. I have to do something for his birthday. Oh, shit. It's a few days away. But, yeah, so you know, I'll send an e-mail today. [00:11:32]

But, yeah, so what was I saying? Yeah. I always do a big thing for him and when he's like, "No, it's your birthday, too. You can cut the cake with me," this and that, and all of a sudden I get very coy, or something. I'm like a martyr in the room, like no, I don't deserve it. I don't like to celebrate my birthday, this and that. And, yeah. So I, kind of, hide away and let people celebrate his birthday. But I don't know why I do that. I don't know why I put on this almost like a martyr, like oh, yeah, you know, it's all for him. You know, I'm not going to take anything, and I don't want anything. (laughter) I don't know why I do that. [00:12:26]

Now I'm thinking, well, wait, I like to have fun, you know. I like to laugh at people, you know. I'd like it if they came to my party, but maybe I'm just so scared that they won't come that I just make it all for him. You know, it's all his. If people don't come, it's because they don't like him, or you know, but mostly they all come. Sorry, did I interrupt you? You were saying something about I take it personally.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know why, but -

THERAPIST: So when asking about cancelling, it's like you're saying I'm doing something to you, and I'm worried about it. [00:13:25]

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle) Which is why, I guess even if I had stuff to do, and I said to someone I'll be there, and do this, I have a hard time cancelling. Like yesterday, I really just wanted to go home and work, but I went and visited these people because I had said I would. And I had cancelled or postponed once I felt, you know, can't keep doing it. (chuckle) Because I take things personally, so I assume others do, too, you know. And if they don't, then that bothers me, too. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: I don't know. It's like, how can you remove yourself from things? I don't know.

THERAPIST: What are they removing themselves from? [00:14:26]

CLIENT: Well, I just said they weren't invested in it as much in the first place. I don't do it all the time, just sometimes or most of the (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Then it sounds like you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't. If you care, then, you know, you're sort of imposing upon you an expectation that you can't fulfill, like coming in. And if they don't care, well, it's like, "How can you not care?"

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle) Yeah, I don't know if there is a way out. (chuckle) I just want people to care. (chuckle) Like, I understand people can't be caring every single minute. They would go crazy. I am right? No? [00:15:38]

THERAPIST: So am I supposed to feel, oh, you can't come? Awesome. I wanted that time free anyway. Or should I feel, I can't believe she's not coming. Doesn't she take me seriously?

CLIENT: Well, I was afraid you'd feel the latter. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: But not the former?

CLIENT: I have no opinion on that. (laughter)

THERAPIST: I'm sorry?

CLIENT: I have no opinion on that. I mean -

THERAPIST: You don't have an opinion?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: I didn't hear what you said. You said you have no opinion on that?

(pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I'm just scared of disappointment, and so I am scared of disappointing other people. Especially people I have known for a while, right, so [00:16:56]

THERAPIST: Well, there's this other piece of obligation and feeling obligated, and sometimes feeling angry at feeling obligated.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Feeling like that's inhibiting your freedom.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know why I think that way. Yeah, like yesterday when I was waiting at the station, these people, I'm like, what the hell am I waiting? Like, I could be doing X, Y, and Z right now, and well, or maybe working on my paper. I'll be back and getting ready and this and that. They're just going to feed me all your food, and I'm going to get fatter, and say ahh. (chuckle) Yeah, I felt inhibited, yeah. (pause) So is it possible to have interactions in which you care, but not feel obligated, and like [00:18:27]

THERAPIST: I mean, obligations are part of life, for sure.

CLIENT: But like so what's I'm creating an obligation.

THERAPIST: No, I didn't necessarily say you're creating an obligation. You have feelings about feeling obligated. You don't like it, and a lot of times, you want to push back against it.

CLIENT: Yeah, and -

THERAPIST: You tend to fee imprisoned by your obligations.

CLIENT: Yeah. Most people don't? Or -

THERAPIST: Imprisoned? No.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Why do I feel imprisoned? I don't know. (pause) You don't feel imprisoned?

THERAPIST: Do you think that's a general human experience to feel imprisoned?

CLIENT: I don't know. [00:19:59]

THERAPIST: I mean, I'm wondering if that's you feel most people just feel imprisoned during their lives, I mean, throughout their lives.

CLIENT: Probably not. (chuckle) Is it because they know and see that they have other options, or -

THERAPIST: I guess that's a part of it. (pause) And I guess also you think about that obligation is not the same thing as sacrifice.

CLIENT: What do you mean? [00:20:56]

THERAPIST: Well, if you feel part of the way of feeling imprisoned is that your obligations involve self-sacrifice versus these are your obligations, and sometimes you may not even always want to do them. They're not necessarily self-sacrifice.

CLIENT: So I equate them as self-sacrifice, or they're actually -

THERAPIST: I think you feel like you're sacrificing a lot for your obligations.

CLIENT: Hm. So like yesterday, I could've just said, oh, I have a final paper due, guys. I cannot meet.

THERAPIST: That's actually not what I meant, but I guess you could do that, too.

CLIENT: Well, what did you mean?

THERAPIST: That you'd go, but you wouldn't feel like it was sacrificing something.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: And that you're aware of doing something is taking away from something else.

CLIENT: Yeah, I went and I said I won't stay very long, and then hopefully I can work when I get back home, which I did for a little bit. I mean, it could've been longer if I was living by myself. (chuckle) But I guess in bigger scenarios, like my mom, like by giving her money and by helping her out in whatever ways, I don't necessarily have to feel that I'm sacrificing a lot. Or I can get, yeah. I don't know. Is that? Yeah. [00:22:40]

THERAPIST: I'm confused.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

(pause)

THERAPIST: It seems like you came in here feeling like you were going to tell me something that was going to somehow hurt me or upset me like because how you started the session before you got here in terms of your own, sort of, thinking and feeling. [00:23:54]

CLIENT: I acted like that?

THERAPIST: No, that you were feeling that way. You were going to say something to me that you imagined would upset me.

CLIENT: Oh. No, it's that thing about playing hooky on Friday.

THERAPIST: And that sounds like a little girl.

CLIENT: No, I just mean, like -

THERAPIST: Playing hooky is a Sunday night kid does to get away out of something that he or she should be doing, and skirting authority.

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: It's not in the framework of an adult woman who is asking for session in therapy so she can make a better life for herself.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Yeah. [00:24:57]

THERAPIST: I am also aware since it was something that came from me, even though you brought it up again, that I don't want the third session to become about something that's for me and not for you. It's a recommendation I had, and it's something that you can feel free to go along with or not. I think we're doing very productive work twice a week. I don't think like, oh, my gosh, this isn't going well. We need to do something different. But it's important that it feels like it's for you, and that's something that you want, and not something that you're doing for me, and that maybe you can get out of sometimes.

CLIENT: No, it doesn't feel like that.

THERAPIST: I understand. I wanted to put that out there, though.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, no, it doesn't feel like that. I guess I phrased it that way because, you know, I don't know, I assumed, you know, that it mattered as much to you as to me. I don't know. (chuckle) So like you would personally feel bad if I didn't come in, that's all.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, that I would?

CLIENT: Yeah. But -

THERAPIST: Because I would see it as a rejection? [00:26:07]

CLIENT: Yeah, rejection of your work or something (laughter) of your recommendation. So but yeah, I know it's for me, you know, but -

THERAPIST: I was thinking, but there's a difference between my saying, you know, what do you think about coming in three times a week, and you're saying, "No, I'm not doing that," or, "Yes, I'm doing that," but then as the day approaches, "Oh, I don't think I can come." So because I feel like the latter's more you, like signing up for something you don't always necessarily want or feel like you might be doing it for the other person, not you, and then feeling annoyed by it and wanting to try to get out of it. You're not saying no early in the process. You sign up for it it looks like you're signing up for it but then you pull out. [00:27:10]

CLIENT: Yeah, I've done that.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Why, does that make the other person feel cheated, or what?

THERAPIST: I had never thought about that, but that's clearly on your mind about how the other person might feel and imagining they would feel cheated. It certainly sounds like an experience you've had.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Feeling cheated.

CLIENT: How?

THERAPIST: You don't think that's something you felt?

CLIENT: By my dad, or -

THERAPIST: I don't know. It feels like something as you said, it seems very true in terms of how you feel in a lot of ways.

CLIENT: Hm. But not by lovers so much as, like -

THERAPIST: Life.

CLIENT: Things in life, yeah.

THERAPIST: Like Victor with this woman in his passenger seat. It seemed like you felt cheated out of that seat or cheated out of rewards. You know, you feel that way, someone has gotten something that's really yours.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't feel that way anymore. (chuckle) [00:28:24]

THERAPIST: You don't feel it anymore?

CLIENT: About him.

THERAPIST: About him? Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, you know when I said I had never felt it was about Victor to begin with.

CLIENT: Yeah. That narrative about -

THERAPIST: I always feel like well, you said you don't feel that way about him anymore, and I mean, I would imagine maybe in the future you might, but that it's about the narrative, not about who he is.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I'm confused. We're talking about many things at once it seems like. (laughter) That I am (pause) Yeah, I do sign up for things without just because I feel obligated and then I pull out. Like, how do I say no upfront? What would it be? So I should just come in and cross my leg and say, "No, Doctor, I do not think I can see you on Friday (laughter) and have a third session until August when I have better control of my financial situation." (laughter) Isn't that the adult-like no, I'm not mocking, I'm actually being serious.

THERAPIST: Yeah, when you come up with these scenarios, and then you ask me whether they're okay or not. [00:30:11]

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: You don't say, "I have no idea what that would like." You say, "I have an idea of what this would look like," and then you say, "Is this okay?"

CLIENT: (chuckle) No, I'm, you know, imagining it out loud, so. (pause) Yeah, part of it is, you know, like having unreasonable, kind of, idea of things, like my time, and my work, and stuff. Like, oh, I can stay up and do it, so I should just sign up for this one thing because the other person is, you know, insisting so much. But I've tried. I'm starting to say no to things.

THERAPIST: Yeah, my first thought when you're saying that someone is insisting so much that you do it to get someone off your back. (crosstalk)

CLIENT: Well, don't we all?

THERAPIST: Agree to things to get someone off our backs? [00:31:21]

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle) I don't know. Like part of the reason I went to Ohio the other weekend was because I felt scared of disappointing that guy and getting him angry, which is weird because at the end, he did get very angry. Like a no-win situation. If I go, I'd probably would make him angry. If I don't go, I'd probably make him angry. But I didn't realize that I could make him less angry no, I don't think so. I think that guy is just weird, you know. He probably would've broken up with me, even if I didn't go. He probably would've just snapped and said, "Oh, you're blah." (chuckle) But I guess we're not here to analyze him. And I felt very obligated to go. So I would do anything if people made me feel obligated, I'd probably, you know, sleep with them and whatever. (laughter) [00:32:36]

THERAPIST: That's a problem.

CLIENT: Isn't it? Yeah, it's a problem.

THERAPIST: Well, do you think it's not a problem or you (crosstalk) -

CLIENT: Yeah, it is, it is. Like being a doormat, yeah.

THERAPIST: But it's being an angry doormat.

CLIENT: (laughter)

THERAPIST: I'm serious. Being a doormat is a problem in itself. I'm not saying that that would be good, but then the added thing is it's an angry doormat.

CLIENT: Well -

THERAPIST: It's like, "I'm laying here. How dare you step on me?"

CLIENT: Well, I have definite visual. (laughter)

THERAPIST: What did you have? What was your visual?

CLIENT: You know, like an angry door. You step on it and it bites your leg off. (laughter) And I have to hop inside. An angry doormat. I like that. I'll remember it. (laughter) No, this was really good because I feel bad when I think of myself as a doormat, but you've made a big improvement in the picture, and, you know, I mean in real life, I'm actually an angry doormat. That gives me an agency.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: A power. (laughter)

THERAPIST: It is a power, but it's sort of a very -

CLIENT: Self destructive. [00:33:47]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and sort of subversive. It's not a power to say no, it's like you have to say yes, but then you'll get something after.

CLIENT: Yeah. So my goal is to go from being an angry doormat to what, a wall hanging?

THERAPIST: Hm, a wall hanging?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Someone who's, sort of, an inanimate object, and it hangs out on the side. That's not participating in anything.

CLIENT: No. I mean, it could be the center of attention that gets talked about for a few minutes.

THERAPIST: It's not interactive, I guess. The wall hanging is not an interactive although, I guess if people are staring at you, then it's still not interactive.

CLIENT: But I thought we were still in the realm of inanimate objects, so -

THERAPIST: That's right. So then how would you create an inanimate object? How would you use an inanimate object, use that as a way of sort of thinking about a healthy relationship. I don't know. That's a good question.

CLIENT: I guess I could be a coffee table. That's interactive, right? No? (laughter) I'd get used. That's sort of the doormat. I'm confused. [00:35:09]

THERAPIST: I mean, an angry doormat is, sort of, part of a victim's narrative. You don't have the power to say yes or no, but after the fact you can make someone feel guilty or bad about it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I have to change that. The hardest one to change would be my mom, like my interaction with her. She definitely is entrenched in her like [doing stuff] (ph) and -

THERAPIST: Mm, uh-huh. She really is.

CLIENT: That's why I, sort of, I avoid the are we done or -

THERAPIST: No, we still have and I was, sort of, a few minutes today, almost ten minutes. [00:36:04]

CLIENT: Oh. I mean that's why I avoid her because it's like she can't go there with her feeling like a victim, so and it's hard for me to be on my guard and catch her all the time. It was funny was that on Mother's Day? Yeah, it was a few days before Mother's Day, just meeting. It was a day after I, kind of, not really screamed at her, but like, kind of, maybe a little rudely said, "So what are you doing about a job?" and this and that. The next day we met, and we're just walking around the square, and she saw a sign at a shop that said now hiring, and so she's like, "Should I apply there?" Well -

THERAPIST: She said that with you?

CLIENT: Yeah. And earlier, that would've, kind of, depressed me or maybe even really depressed me because I would've thought, oh, how bad for my mother. At every shop she goes to, she is going to look at that sign, and that she's going to take any menial job just so I could have my own place. I mean, I could've fallen in that trap, but I didn't and, you know, maybe I don't know. And I thought, yeah, so what? So what if she I mean, this looks like a decent shop. You know, like she could work here, you know. Why should I automatically feel bad about or lowly about her working here?

THERAPIST: You got a sense of she was wanting that to make you feel bad a little bit? [00:38:06]

CLIENT: Yeah. But I didn't fall for it. Well, I did, kind of. I said, "Don't worry. You don't have to jump at the first sign you see. It's okay. It's all right. You can finish your exams, pay the rent this month. And, you know, finish your exam and, you know, we'll see."

THERAPIST: Like a mom. You did eat your dinner tonight, so you will get a little treat after. But tomorrow -

CLIENT: (chuckle) What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, "Is it okay if I don't get a job? Oh, well, yeah, you get to have some chocolate because you ate." It's like a little kid talking to their parent.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Hm. But -

THERAPIST: It's not a woman with a an adult woman responsible narrative.

CLIENT: Wait. For me or -

THERAPIST: For her in that case. You know, is it okay if I well, actually for both of you. I mean, you're the parent saying, "Oh, it's okay. I'll take care of you just another day." She's saying, "Please, please, please will you take care of me one more day?" I really think for you I can't say for her, I don't know what her growth potential is, but for you, it's such a destructive pattern. [00:39:20]

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: This whole pattern between you and your mother about this, sort of, child. I mean, not destructive like it's going to cause you harm and you better get out of it immediately, but as an ongoing thing, I think it's so bad for you to, sort of, feel like in this role of her as a child and you as a parent, and you're scold her, and you're feeling guilty for scolding her, or maybe I've scolded her too much today.

CLIENT: Hm. Why is that destructive?

THERAPIST: For a lot of reasons. First of all, because you replicate not actively, but in all your relationships where you're sometimes the mom and sometimes the daughter, like with me, "Is it okay if I don't come to school on Friday?" And it doesn't allow you for a voice, and, sort of, the freedom to just interact with people outside of this dynamic. You do this with Victor, too. You know, with you're being the child. All of your energies are tied up in it. You've got other things to do with your life. [00:40:24]

CLIENT: Do I? (laughter)

THERAPIST: I think you do.

CLIENT: What is it?

THERAPIST: Does it feel like you'll have nothing left if you break free of this?

CLIENT: No. I would like to have a different narrative. More things, yeah. But I mean, can I not just have one separate, kind of, interaction with my mom, and separate with others?

THERAPIST: Are you saying is it practically possible?

CLIENT: Well, yeah, whatever. You know, practically, emotionally. Can I not act like an adult in my other relations, and well, adult as in equal, and then with my mom, I get a little more mother-like. [00:41:16]

THERAPIST: Which is funny, because the way I think about it is with people with their parents, even if they are not like those other relationships, can be somewhat regressed with their parents. What's interesting is regress with your parents is some ways as being the opposite of regressed, because you're not regress means child-like, and there is something, a regressive pull with your mom, but you're the adult, at least a lot of the times, certainly. Kind of screwy.

Do I think that people can be regressed with their parents in a way that they're not with other relationships? That it's something unique to their parent that pulls that out, pulls that from them? Yes. But it's just sort of ubiquitous right now, and it's so strong. I mean, the issue is not whether your mother gets a job or not for you. The issue is whether you pay her rent or not. If you don't pay her rent, it's her decision whether she wants to get a job or not. I mean, these are not the same thing. You see them as the same thing. You guys are separate. Your issue is whether you can or can't, or want to or don't want to pay her rent. What she does about that, whether she gets a job or doesn't get a job, or whatever she does, they're separate. [00:42:28]

CLIENT: Yeah. I have a hard time seeing that.

THERAPIST: They're very separate. I mean, she could get a job and still not pay her rent. I mean, there's a lot, you know. I understand it's not a crazy connection you're making, but in terms of your own responsibility, it's different. Because then you're also saying you're giving her responsibility that's not hers. You're saying it's your responsibility to get a job or else I have to still pay your rent. No, you don't. That's your responsibility to decide.

(pause)

CLIENT: Well, you know, the thing that makes me say that is I think it's her understanding is that I wanted this. I wanted us to live separately, therefore, I must pay for it. You know? So it's not her rent, you know what I mean? [00:43:43]

THERAPIST: It is. And -

CLIENT: That thing is my desire to not live with her.

THERAPIST: So you have to pay for that desire?

CLIENT: Yeah, my independence.

THERAPIST: You're paying for your independence, but the question is, is it really independence after all anyway?

CLIENT: Well, it's, kind of, very political. Like, you pay taxes and they, you know, go into all these kinds of, you know, initiatives that, kind of, keep you safe and, you know, this and that so yeah, you do pay for independence, right, in the civil society. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: It's a very good argument. I'm not so sure it translates exactly to the microscopic level, but in a sense, it all speaks to obligations you know, we're not fully independent of others. We do have obligations. The question is how deep do those obligations go. Maybe it's more quantitative in that sense than qualitative. I don't know. We're going to need to stop in a moment, so next week, I'm here Monday, and we'll meet Monday, Wednesday. I'm not here Friday. [00:45:00]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And then the following week is Labor Day Memorial Day, so I'm not here Monday.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So we only meet Wednesday, and then you're gone, so I just want to make sure, so next week, Monday and Wednesday, and then the following week, just Wednesday -

CLIENT: Wednesday.

THERAPIST: And that'll be that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So what are your thoughts about Friday? I'd prefer to know now.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'll come.

THERAPIST: Okay. Okay, very good. So I'll see you and I have you down I definitely have you down at 10:00.

CLIENT: At 10:00, okay.

THERAPIST: Okay?

CLIENT: Sounds good.

THERAPIST: Great. I will see you then. Bye-bye.

CLIENT: Yeah. Have a good week.

THERAPIST: Thank you. [00:45:28]

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