TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Come on in.
CLIENT: Nice dress.
THERAPIST: Oh, thank you.
CLIENT: Is it like a bandage dress, or -
THERAPIST: I'm sorry a -
CLIENT: Is it like a bandage dress?
THERAPIST: I'm not sure what that is.
CLIENT: Oh, okay.
THERAPIST: What is a bandage dress?
CLIENT: It's, I guess it's tighter, it's more like form hugging, but it kind of consists of like bandages. [00:01:01]
THERAPIST: Oh, like spandex?
CLIENT: No, no, it's, it's bands of fabric stitched together so it looks like the body has just been wrapped in a bandage. (laugh).
THERAPIST: Oh, I don't think so. It's not that type thing.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I've never seen them. It sounds like spandex though. Like the -
CLIENT: Yeah, it does have spandex, but it's called bandage.
THERAPIST: Oh, I see. No, I think this is silk.
CLIENT: Oh. (laugh)
THERAPIST: But I see what you're saying because it goes like this.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: So this is the second to the last time we meet before you go to Nepal.
CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh)
THERAPIST: What do you think it will be like to not, well we, well it seems like we're going to try to talk a, every so often. But what do you think it will be like not to be here for a few months?
CLIENT: Nice. (laugh) [00:02:02]
THERAPIST: Yeah?
CLIENT: Well, I don't know, because like I feel like we've kind of reached somewhat of an impasse. Like you know you've identified (sigh) like certain problems. And you know even made recommendations, you know. (laugh) And I have to like implement them. Or think about them, you know. So in terms of you know relationship with my mom and Chris, so I guess (sigh) yeah. [00:02:42]
I have to figure out how to bring about changes because I see when you're saying I'm stuck in many things, so. I guess I have to figure out a way to get unstuck. (laugh) Right? [00:03:05]
THERAPIST: Well I'm taking what you're saying, because I certainly have thought about our work as being at an impasse, so, you know, I guess I just -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yes. I'm surprised by you're saying that.
CLIENT: Well I think it's from last time, or don't you think like all the conversations have been building up to this, that you know I'm unhappy with Chris, or the way that I talk about him, I don't seem to be happy. So I feel like that means that okay, here's your problem, now go fix it, so. I'm like okay, let's see (laugh) how I can fix it. [00:03:47]
THERAPIST: I'm not aware of like we'll fix it part.
CLIENT: Yeah. Hum.
THERAPIST: That you're in a sense feeling like I'm telling you to go do something?
CLIENT: Yeah, well, you know when you say like you have choices, and the only problem is you don't see them. So, this is distracting, (laugh) so I thought maybe that's what you're trying to say. That I have, I have to, right? I mean you're saying look, you have choices, and I'm yeah [00:04:20]
THERAPIST: Yes. I'm definitely saying that. I'm not aware of, what I'm aware of doing in that, I'm saying that -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Is to sort of help you think about things differently.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: What you choose to do with that new framework is up to you. I don't have, I don't have a sense of either you should be doing this, or you should do that, or that's at least not my intent, my conscious intent.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:04:46]
THERAPIST: Which is different. I mean if you feel you have choices, you may then decide to do something differently. I understand it's not just a different thought. But it's different then saying okay, you know, you're at an impasse, let's see what you'll do with it kind of thing.
CLIENT: Hum. Yeah, I see. But as far as conversation goes, I feel again, it's my brain thinking, like totally I feel like okay, now get it done already, you know. (laugh) But maybe that's not at all what you're thinking. And I'm thinking then that's what. [00:05:20]
THERAPIST: I think yes. I because I think that, I mean that's the, sort of I think one of the reasons I felt surprised is I thought gosh our work is so productive. I don't feel like we're at an impasse at all.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: So it's important that we're talking about this. Because obviously that feeling you have is coming from somewhere and I want to know where, but.
CLIENT: I feel that way about a lot of things. Like I'll have a negative reaction ready just to protect myself from disappointment. (laugh) You know. I do that with everything. Like with the independent study I did, like (sigh) you know I have a negative idea built around it that you know my advisor thinks I'm completely dumb and you know, no good. [00:06:10]
So I had that reaction at the girl. So if she does think that way, or you know leans towards that, well then I already know. (laugh) But she might you know, like you surprise me and say, you know, oh my gosh no, you made so much progress and it was fine and all. So that would be a very nice surprise. (laugh) [00:06:29]
But you know since we will never have that conversation, this is moot. But I guess it's kind of, I'm trying to see you know, I always have a negative (laugh) reaction ready. And I probably do that because it will save myself of the disappointment. (laugh) [00:06:45]
Because like when I interact with people, or you know for example with you, you know and I hear you say something that you've said before, I feel like you know, you may be getting impatient and you're saying, I've already told you this seven time, why can't you get it, you know. (laugh) And you might not feel impatient, or you might not feel a great impasse, but I kind of think that just to, in case you have already thought it, so I can tell you that I've also thought it. (laugh) [00:07:17]
THERAPIST: Because if you weren't thinking that and I felt that way, you'd feel disappointed?
CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Of course the drawback is that you can convince yourself that it's true and then you go around thinking well I'm at an impasse with therapy and that's what your therapist thinks too. So then that becomes the way you think about it. And that's a downer.
CLIENT: Yeah. That's, I keep myself down just so it's, you know (laugh) it's not the other person then doesn't surprise me. [00:07:53]
THERAPIST: Like a government who oppresses the masses.
CLIENT: (laugh) Sure. (laugh) I'm quite a dictator. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: But I mean it's good to know that you think we're productive. I think we're productive too. But I feel like some of the things that I've been talking about that I bring up the same things maybe? Maybe it's not true. [00:08:16]
THERAPIST: I don't think it's, I don't think it's the same things.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I think that we learn new things all the time. But I also think in this work, that's my expectation. It takes so long to think and feel differently and I feel like you know, it could take -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Hundreds of thousands of times about thinking and talking and feeling. I don't have any, so I don't feel impatient, I don't have an expectation.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: That you're going to come in here and just all of a sudden alter your life and your mind.
CLIENT: (laugh) Well I would like to. I'd like to -
THERAPIST: That might be, but that's a different. And I'd like to hear your liking that, but that's not coming from me and my set of expectations.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:08:59]
THERAPIST: But you'd like to?
CLIENT: What?
THERAPIST: You'd like to just be able to alter your?
CLIENT: Yeah. Because you know I am impulsive. Well, but not impulsive in this regard where you know, habitually thinking negatively and obviously be the last thing that changes with an impulse you know. (laugh) Obviously that's not true. You can change everything in an impulse. But you can't change your head in an impulse. [00:09:37]
THERAPIST: No and you can only really change things temporarily.
CLIENT: Yeah, because that, like this thing, and the thing that governs everything, like a government. It is, this is a government. You know? (laugh) So it can change a long time to topple the government peacefully. (laugh) Without a violent coup, so. [00:09:58]
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: So. (sigh) But there could be a revolution in place. But you know if you go by non-violent methods, that takes a while. A couple of decades or something. But yeah, like to answer your previous first question, (sigh) I said I mean you didn't mind me thinking (laugh) it would be nice in a sense that I'll try to not keep thinking about the same things, you know like mom, rent, Chris, job, live on my own. So, these are like the boulders that I keep shuttling with every day now. (laugh) [00:10:56]
So I guess I'll try not to struggle with them for a couple of months and then you know work on my craft. Because you know that is also, that will be the source of all (laugh) anxiety and insecurity, so. (sigh) [00:11:20]
THERAPIST: It sounds like recess.
CLIENT: Recess, yeah! Recess from life you know. That's what a vacation is. So. (sigh) We shall see. But recess not from, in recess I will you know look over my notes from therapy and think about things. (laugh) And, yeah. [00:11:56]
THERAPIST: You're getting back the first week of August, or when -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah, we'll figure I'm away the first week in August, but back the second week.
CLIENT: Uh-huh.
THERAPIST: I'm just be away for a week.
CLIENT: So we can I guess, via e-mail, make appointments and stuff.
THERAPIST: Yes. And you can also, when you have a sense of, if you want to Skype or whatever, you can certainly let me know. I don't, aside from that, week in August, I'm going away until next Wednesday, I'll be back Wednesday in the office. I don't think I have any other trips planned.
CLIENT: Okay. How about writing a long e-mail (laugh) Will that work? [00:12:32]
THERAPIST: That you'd write a long e-mail to me?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And I would read it and respond?
CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh) You've never done that right? (laugh) [00:12:41]
THERAPIST: Not really.
CLIENT: (laugh) It would be like a case. A mini case history or a weekly session or something. (laugh)
THERAPIST: You like that idea rather than speaking.
CLIENT: Well it would be different. I mean I'm curious about how that will go. (laugh) So. I guess we can think about it. (pause) (sigh) I'm here on Monday with the last time we met was Chris's birthday. [00:13:37]
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: And I was quite busy that day. I was trying to finish up and (sigh) my finals and I took him to dinner and it was kind of (laugh) we were so, we were sad the whole time. I think I just was sad and I couldn't snap out of it because I was thinking about what you'd said. But yeah, so I feel bad that you know, I was, you know I didn't give him a happy birthday. (laugh) Anyway. (big sigh) (long pause) (sigh) [00:14:38]
THERAPIST: What made you feel sad?
CLIENT: Well. Well just like where I conversation ended was you know like you saying I provoke him and you know me saying maybe. Like I provoke him to get something from him. But then you know, maybe he doesn't really have what I'm asking him to give. I don't know, I just talked to everyone about his and my problem you know. And just like it shouldn't be that hard. (laugh) [00:15:15]
And then yesterday like I just kind of said to him like, I think I was just subconsciously I just kind of came out and I said I love you and I don't usually say it to him. And I was surprised by that. (laugh) It's just you know that affection you feel for someone you've been with for so long. But also you know that steadiness that you get from knowing that they have been there for you, you know. No matter what you've done. (laugh) Like a parent. (laugh) Really. [00:16:01]
And so. I mean you don't want to disappoint them or hurt them. So you want to be a good kid. But like (sigh) what was I going to say? Umm (laugh) (long pause) I was also thinking that if I could somehow see that I have other options, like he's just not my be all, end all and like I need him for everything, then I'll stop hating him so much. (laugh) You know, but that doesn't mean that you know, things will be you know peachy between us. [00:17:38]
I don't know, I mean I'm analyzing it from like a social standpoint. I know it's like it seems to be a classic case of you know, I feel like I'm the wife of some you know like (sigh) very busy intellectual or very busy scientist, you know. (laugh) You know like the wife of Stephen Hawking or something. (laughing) You know who's you know not really available in many aspects. You know Chris is available in far more (laugh) aspects of course. But you know it's kind of like that. [00:18:16]
THERAPIST: That's an interesting association.
CLIENT: I don't read too much into it. (laugh)
THERAPIST: That's my job.
CLIENT: No. Don't even go there. He's not, you know.
THERAPIST: He's a mind with a body that doesn't work very well.
CLIENT: Yeah, but Chris's body works. (laugh) A little bit. (laugh)
THERAPIST: A little bit.
CLIENT: (laugh) Yeah. But you know, I mean we, he and I have joked about this. Like you know he is a mind, just a mind and not a body. But he's changed I think. (sigh) He's more you know physical and stuff, so. But (laugh) you know I'm just saying, that's an extreme example. But there could be others where you know like the scientist is quite you know (laugh) it has a body and stuff but it's just dedicated to his work, so. (sigh) [00:19:19]
And then you know the wife feels like she's under, well actually there is a lot of parallels. (laugh) Stephen Hawking's wife, I think she, well she was there with him for you know a long time and all, and then only like late in the marriage did she start having an affair with one of his friends. (laugh) And then she got like a PhD. And I don't know if they're together now, or if divorced or something, but. Does he have children? [00:19:55]
THERAPIST: Can he have children?
CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know.
THERAPIST: I don't think so.
CLIENT: I think they could have adopted. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Maybe.
CLIENT: But yeah. I mean just because you are a social type doesn't make the problem go away though, right? It helps you understand it, but -
THERAPIST: The problem being?
CLIENT: Well you know just whatever I feel, you know.
THERPAIST: I'm not sure I understand the problem.
CLIENT: Like me not being sure about Chris is the problem. And understanding it in the sense that you know like all of all other wives of academics or scientists, that understanding doesn't help me see things differently, or feel differently, or resolve my issue that I'm confused by Chris. [00:20:57]
THERAPIST: Um-hum. Which is often you're go to. Well other people have this problem too. Don't other people feel this way?
CLIENT: Well yeah, it's like how do they take care of it I guess?
THERAPIST: Stephen Hawking's wife left him.
CLIENT: (laugh) Yeah. So. She couldn't change him huh? (laugh) (pause) I don't know. (very very long pause) [00:22:47]
I'm going to have to figure out how, where I'm going to stay in Nepal and (sigh) with whom and so, just like don't just end up staying in Istanbul for two months with Chris's parent. (laugh) Yeah, and then I can kind of think, but I mean you know like something of by myself. So. (laugh) I still feel kind of silly just like getting tickets with him without really making a plan, but you know you live and you learn. Maybe next year it will be different. [00:23:43]
I mean it's not always been the case that I've gone. Like one time in Ohio he'd gone and I'd given him money, but I hadn't gone because I had a job.
THERAPIST: He goes to Nepal every summer?
CLIENT: Yeah, pretty much. I think one summer he didn't go because he was finishing up, but. (very very long pause) (clears throat) [00:25:07]
THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?
CLIENT: This, it being out there. (laugh) Different people and what they feel. (laugh) And how scary it is to be single and be you know out there. It's like them being on a river just on a raft. (laugh) [00:25:45]
THERPAIST: Hum.
CLIENT: I'm just wondering like just how secure people would have to be to do that. You know if it doesn't work, it's hey, it doesn't work out. I've had some disappointments too in that regard, you know, so. (long pause) [00:26:17]
Well I guess I want to make myself that secure. That you know things don't shake me so much. I want to get there, just (sigh) have to see things differently. Like yesterday my mom came to study with me and I'm just helping her with like the exam she has to give, or take. It's like some English grammar and stuff. So I was thinking you know, like my life sucks. I have to teach this to my mom and it makes me feel so insecure that you know my mom is taking this exam for the third time. [00:27:13]
And then I was like it's okay, you know like it's a tough exam for her and you know like at her age and you know people's parents, you know they've had different lives and they've had you know maybe they were lucky and they got (pause) you know they struggled, and they got and the result of you know good fruit for their struggles. But my mom maybe wasn't so lucky for whatever reason you know. (sigh) And she's still struggling, so. [00:27:48]
But that's okay, that shouldn't depress me you know, it shouldn't make me feel insecure in front of all these people who have everything you know. (laugh) [00:27:56]
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: You know I have theory, I know all about class conflict and this and that. So that should empower me, you know, that should make me feel like okay you have whatever you have. The extent of this misery, (laugh) and you know. And I don't, because of these miseries and you know I have other things, or so what if we're not equals. So what if I know less, or have less. [00:28:27]
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: You know, it's okay if you don't think much of me. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: You know I have, I can go back to my books or something, or you know (laugh) and feel secure, you know. And hopefully it is some people also who care about me and you know. (laugh) People in the community, so. I mean (laugh) (sigh) [00:29:05]
I mean like I will still continue to try to be nice and try to do nice things and all that kind of, like comfort like knowing that I'll be the same in that regard. I don't know. (laugh) I know that's enough to give me like a strong core yet, but maybe I'm getting there. [00:29:29]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: (laugh) (long pause) (burp) Excuse me. What do you think? [00:29:59]
THERAPIST: I don't. What I'm hearing is a different voice apart from Betty.
CLIENT: Yeah, a rational voice. (laugh)
THERAPIST: Well you would say a generous voice.
CLIENT: Yeah. It's my own right? It's not got imprints of Chris or anything, right?
THERAPIST: What makes you say that? What were you responding to inside yourself to ask that?
CLIENT: I don't know, just like I've been kind of aware of leaning on Chris, and looking to him for judgment and approval. I want to stop doing that. I want to have my own standards. Because I don't like his, so. I feel like you know, I've learned a lot from him. But some of the judgments that he's passed have kind of been a little damaging. [00:30:53]
THERAPIST: Um-hum.
CLIENT: Where you know he really just values intellectual (sigh) you know strength and I don't. (laugh) And I saw more people around me who think that way. (laugh) So. But. (pause) Yeah, I just want to find my own kind of standards and not be swayed so much, because I think I spent most of my life until now just being swayed a lot. (laugh) It's taken me to interesting places and I was seeing some very interesting people. Spent time with them because of you know that, those winds. But now it's like I want to get rooted in myself and kind of, yeah. [00:32:01]
(long pause) But it's fun being swayed. That's like, it's been like my (pause) the only way I can experience fun. (laugh) [00:32:33]
THERAPIST: Do you feel swayed?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: How do you mean?
CLIENT: Well like you know getting to know Graham, or Victor, you know like not saying no to them when I could have or should have, or wanted to you know. [00:32:56]
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: But not saying no just to experience that. And then you know getting burned. (laugh) Maybe with Graham it's not so much, but with you know Victor it still, and I am still suffering. (laugh) My birthday is coming up and I'm like will he wish me (laugh) I was wondering if he wished Chris, so I was like looking at his page, and you know looking, when he was looking in his e-mail, I was looking over his shoulder. (laugh) [00:33:33]
But. (pause) Chris and I are going to Istanbul first and then to Nepal.
THERAPIST: Have you ever been there?
CLIENT: No. Have you?
THERAPIST: Um-Um.
CLIENT: I'm kind of nervous about it. (laugh) Nervous that you know he will be in his head all again. And I'll have a miserable time. (laugh) Maybe I won't. (very very long pause) (sigh) [00:36:07]
I should ask you what to do with this thing. (laugh) I don't know if I told you what Graham took me, we were just walking back to his place and we noticed this estate jewelry shop. And we went in because he wanted to ask the person about some gold or silver he had or something. And I saw a necklace there and it was like a 19th century English made. And it was really pretty. And Graham just bought it. It was like $400 bucks. (laugh) And you know that whole thing that we talked about last time, transaction and all that. [00:37:02]
Well, I don't know why he bought it. Probably for that reason. And it seems since he didn't get any, he was you know pissed and he's ended our friendship. (laugh) So I should probably send the necklace back, right? I'm just so pissed at him that I don't even want to look at it and worry about it and whatever. But keeping it is probably going to make me feel worse. And make him think the worse of me. Right? (laugh) [00:37:37]
I guess I'm concerned about it even though we've ended our friendship. I'm still concerned about what he thinks. (laugh) It's just silly but. (pause) Maybe I could return it to the jewelers and they can refund his money. (laugh) (sigh) (very long pause) [00:38:59]
But isn't, wasn't that a weird thing for him to do? Like just end the friendship? Because it had taken this you know sexual turn and he wasn't getting it, or wasn't satisfied, so. [00:39:15]
THERAPIST: Well I'm not sure what you mean by weird.
CLIENT: Well like you know we were, like I guess, or you know we were friends for ten years, so and you know that involved us you know just hanging out platonically and talking about books and you know everything else. So that, well he didn't want to continue doing that, or what. (laugh) I'm just trying to understand like his approach to dealing with with things, you know. [00:39:48]
I'm just trying to understand why he did what he did. And I don't think I do. I mean at first I was like I don't care. He's weird, you know. But now I'm like hum, why? (laugh) Why just break things off like permanently, you know. [00:40:06]
THERAPIST: Hum.
CLIENT: (pause) You know it's just because I would never have done something like that so. But I have breaken, broken things off permanently with my dad. But you know that was an extreme scenario you know. It was years and years of abuse and manipulation. So. [00:40:46]
Am I manipulative? (laugh) Like do I use people? Like Chris and ? (laugh)
THERAPIST: Sounds like that's on your mind.
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean. I don't know. Because you said I'm using Chris. So I wondered like is that is how I treat other people (laugh) so. [00:41:15]
THERAPIST: It sounds like my saying that had an impact on you.
CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I am kind of aware of it, but I also know that you know that I have helped Chris out previously on many occasions. And it's not completely you know using him, because we have an affection for each other. And it is kind of a relationship even though it might be messed up a little bit. (laugh) But you know. (sigh) Plus like that whole like last, this weekend when I felt like it was a transaction and all. I think not just what he said, it was actually within the context of him buying shoes and me feeling that I had accepted something from him. [00:42:07]
There's more that I think. Or you know that equation is set up. Because if I paid for the shoes myself, I would not have felt so bad about it.
THERAPSIT: Hum.
CLIENT: Like I owed him something. So. (pause) I try to buy stuff as even when I can like things for him and stuff. I mean paying for dinner and groceries. So it doesn't all completely feel like he's taking care of (laugh) me, and I'm you know under his stuff. For me that makes like a big difference if he was paying for everything. (long pause) [00:43:41]
Well like when I think I have to have my own values and my own standards and I have to be grounded. That's all well and good, but what if my standards are wrong. You know what if I become a bad person. (laugh) So. [00:44:01]
THERAPIST: So then Chris can keep you in line.
CLIENT: Uh, if you know other people. Not just Chris, maybe you know they can tell me you know you're using me, or you're being manipulative, or you're you know not being nice.
THERAPIST: Okay. We're going to need to stop right here, okay. So I will see you next Wednesday.
CLIENT: Next Wednesday, okay. Have a good week.
THERAPIST: Thank you very much. Take care.
CLIENT: You too. [00:44:45]
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