TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Let' see. Your e-mail about scheduling.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Let's do this. Why don't we do next week now and then I'll be doing billing and scheduling stuff over the weekend? How can I charge your card, by the way?

CLIENT: I can't remember. I have to check.

THERAPIST: I'm doing billing this weekend and next weekend so -

CLIENT: Okay. Just let me know.

THERAPIST: I'll figure it out. When I'm looking over all that stuff I will e-mail you about subsequent weeks.

CLIENT: That's fine.

THERAPIST: So next week, let's see, I know that I've got so got Tuesday at 8:30, Wednesday at is Tuesday the 30th? Okay.

CLIENT: For next week?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Would you be able to do Wednesday at 9:30 or 10? I'm sorry, 9:15 or 10?

CLIENT: Yeah. Both.

THERAPIST: Okay. And do you want one of those if you want one of those, Wednesday is going to be a little easier for me (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah, that's fine one of those. So, Wednesday at 9:15?

THERAPIST: Sure. Wednesday at 10 if you could be here.

CLIENT: 9:15 is probably a little better.

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: That's Wednesday and that's for 7/3. Okay?

CLIENT: Okay. Great. What were we talking about last time? I don't remember. [00:02:35]

THERAPIST: Let's see. Well, what's on your mind at the moment?

CLIENT: Okay, so yeah, on Saturday I went to look at an apartment. I think I went to one Friday night. Yeah, I did. It was terrible though. Whatever I saw. And then on Saturday I went to an apartment in Dupont that I had really wanted to see and the guy had been like showing it at 3 of I could come, but then I called to see if I could see it earlier because it was a really good deal, $1650 a month. A five minute shot from my mom's house, near Whole Foods, near Stop 'N Shop, near the restaurants that I like. Like next to the Orange Line so I wouldn't have to deal with the Green Line and 1200 sq. feet. Like it looked really nice from the pictures. Hardwood floors whatever. And I went to see it and I loved it. It has no outdoor space, which I have to get used to. A really small bathroom but has a really nice, big, eat-in kitchen. There was quite a nice laundry in the basement but I could also just go to my mom's just down the street, on-street parking but that's fine. Big kitchen, pantry, nice sized second bedroom, big sized bedroom like I could have my king-sized bed, wouldn't have to get rid of it which would be really big for me because I owe money on it. And so I got all excited and filled out an application and then I went home and decided to ask my brother if he wanted to move in with me because I was like, because the guy because first of all I was having no luck with the roommate situation and was feeling just increasingly awful. And the guy was not like well, who would you be living with? And I don't think I would have gotten the apartment on my own.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because it's like this Dominican guy who lives on the third floor with his wife and four year old, owns the building, the three units. The people downstairs have been there for three years, a couple and their roommate and their dog. And the people who have been in this apartment have been here for a while. Actually, interestingly enough, apparently it was a girl and her boyfriend who moved in and then they had broken up and the girl stayed and got a roommate and then now the girl is moving out.

THERAPIST: That's really funny.

CLIENT: I know. I thought, well maybe it's a good sign. Like I'm a good person to be taking her place. But anyway, so he was really concerned with the rent. So I talked it over with my brother and my mom and we're going to try it and see how it works. I'm not uber-excited about it. I'm like more nervous. Like, for example I come over with the application, to get the application which he hadn't filled out, so he starts to fill it out because we both have to fill one and he starts like, 'why do they want to know my former roommate?' Or whatever, landlord. "Why do they need this -' That's how he gets.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like -

THERAPIST: Freaking out.

CLIENT: Freaking out. Like, 'I don't know, I don't know his phone number. And I'm looking at him. And of course my mom said, 'Michael. Just breathe, just calm down.' And I'm like, and I'm sitting there like, what the hell are you doing? It's a fucking who cares if you don't know his name. It's a fucking who cares if you don't know his name, just write "I don't know." Like, what are you freaking and then if we don't get it, we don't get it. What are you I was so irritated. I was like really, right now. This is if you can't fill this out then you can't live on your own. What are you a child? This is just being an adult. And he ends up being all angry. "Fine." And I'm like, 'what are you doing? Like I like screamed at him for something and then he was like and we talked later and he was like, 'well this is what, I'm really afraid you're going to like have temper tantrums and be freaking out and be screaming all the time and I'm going to like hate my life.' And I was like, 'well I'm afraid you're going to start crying when I tell you that the gas bill is a little higher because it's now winter.' Like I was like, 'look at that application.'

Like, 'what the hell is your problem.' You know? And he was like, 'oh yeah, I guess.' And I was like, 'well, you know the landlord lives above with a four year old so this means that a) you couldn't smoke cigarettes anyway in the house because I live there and am not going to tolerate that. And b) you just can't. I don't want to risk eviction. I'm not clear on if it's a smoking or nonsmoking but I just would rather have that not be an issue and I was like you're going to have to limit, cut down or smoke weed elsewhere and so am I. I can handle that adjustment, can you?' Because I don't know. Maybe the baby's room is the one above Michael's because of it being a who knows. I don't whatever. Assuming. But I just think it would be wise to not be smoking pot all the time in the house. I think that every once in a while in the window and some incense that's okay, not like as much as like cigarette smoke will stay in the house and all that, but still. So I'm really worried about that, like if he's going to be able to handle not smoking. Like I don't know what the hell he has free range in my mom's house and smokes cigarettes there like his job. She says that he has been going out a little bit more frequently but like it's summer, like to go outside to the stoop or whatever.

(Pause): [00:08:23 00:08:28]

CLIENT: But I mean I also don't want to there's also no porch, you know. But anyway, there are a lot of concerns. But I really didn't want to lose this apartment because I really think it's the best that I'm going to find, like in the time frame that I'm looking. I mean to a certain extent we both are on the lease. We both will be on the lease, so I don't know. Like would it I don't know. I just don't want him to fuck it up by like smoking cigarettes or something. (Pause) Am I being a little paranoid, maybe?

(Pause): [00:09:02 00:09:14]

THERAPIST: How many packs a day does he smoke now?

CLIENT: One? Two? Five? I have no idea.

THERAPIST: I mean if he like may be smoking most of the day and he's at home most of the day -

CLIENT: Well he's not at home most of the day because he's out with the dogs driving around.

THERAPIST: He's working?

CLIENT: Yes. Oh yeah, he's been working since January.

THERAPIST: Oh good.

CLIENT: Because he lost the Taco job in the fall and then he got this dog walking job.

THERAPIST: You mentioned it (inaudible).

CLIENT: Right. But like it would be a fair assumption that he would not be working.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So you're on track there.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: But he's actually kept this job and it's been good for him. And actually he takes some dogs on the weekends because they pay $40 extra a day if you want to board them. He can still do that, because this place is dog friendly. I mean the people that are in the apartment now have it, I mean we'll have to tell the landlord eventually, but it's a dog-friendly place so I don't see any reason to like -

THERAPIST: Right. The landlord said it's okay to have a dog.

CLIENT: I mean it said on the post, dogs allowed. The people downstairs have a dog and the people that are moving have a dog and I have two cats. So -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But it said, "woof," on Craig's List. (Pause) So that's good. But anyways, he's out and working and driving this van around and probably smoking cigarettes and joints all day long in the forest with the dogs, smoking all day.

THERAPIST: In the forest like he takes the dogs for walks?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's good for him I think. This job. And like pet therapy but he's still -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like when I first looked at that and was kind of like excited and it was a good possibility and maybe it will work.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He's like, 'I'm too depressed to even be enthusiastic. But yeah, I guess.' I was like, yay. Like everyone I've told is like, 'this is horrible. Like it's going to be awful.' Or they were like, 'who cares, maybe it's good. At least it's family if it is awful.' Which is true. Because now it's awful with Mindy and I can't bang on her door and be like get the fucking dishes out of the sink, you know?

THERAPIST: Not that you would enjoy it, but you can.

CLIENT: Right. I know. That's true, I could. Right.

THERAPIST: I mean with your brother.

CLIENT: Oh. No. I could with Mindy but it would be really awkward. But with my brother I don't necessarily want to have that relationship, but I can.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Right. And maybe our relationship will improve. I just am worried about like I mean I feel like with my mother he just got it's really bad because she hates it when I call her an enabler, but she's an enabler. You know, whatever. I guess they have something going though where she sequestering his fund so that he only has access to like a certain amount of cash. So she told me that with the house what she'll do is once I know how much the bills will be in my name and once we know how much that is per month, maybe even groceries, like in terms of general stuff for the house like pasta and whatever, she'll make sure that the rent is posted to my account on a certain day. This goes to that, this goes you know. That is a huge thing. I don't trust him to at all try to be able to do anything. So I may be she said she thinks he'll still want her to.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: And I'm like, 'well, let's make it not a choice.'

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It shouldn't be a choice. Like (unclear) for her, but honestly he won't he can't manage. I mean, and then he only has a certain amount he can spend on his pot, his beer, his whatever. And then it could make sense because you know, also he's been wanting to lose weight. And I'm like, 'you'll lose weight because I'm not going to be cooking like your mother cooks for you. They make like meals. Like he's eating steak and fish and fried chicken and homemade chicken parm. And expensive tomato sauce and I'm like you're going to be eating store brand everything and I don't really cook. But I think maybe putting me in charge of getting like general stuff for the house like groceries and then any additional snack things we'll have and then we'll have kind of agree upon things we can have in the house, but it's going to be way different. I live very differently than my mother does in terms of food and I don't buy as many fresh veggies and so either he has to decide what because I don't want to have to spend that kind of money on fresh stuff because I don't really cook it and then it goes bad and then it's a waste of money. I buy frozen veggies. I buy frozen meat.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Frozen fish and frozen meat, frozen meals and lots of dry goods. You're pretty near the store you said. Yeah, the Whole foods and the Stop 'N Shop.

THERAPIST: That's good. (Unclear) to make it easier.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. It will be really nice. But I don't know. We'll see how it goes. He's nervous and meanwhile he said I should be paying an additional $150 more a month because I have the bigger room. Which, okay, it is considerably larger and has like a little half a bedroom off of it that I could use as an office space or closet or space for the cats, whatever. Fine. But bigger rooms in these situations are going for $25 to $75 extra, tops.

THERAPIST: Oh really.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I decided to give him $100, which is generous especially considering I am bringing the whole apartment there and making it a home. And providing him with a home out of my mother's house that's not (unclear) for me which is why he's been at my mother's house for so long. His friends are paired off in two-bedrooms $600 would be okay if (unclear) $750. I'll pay $875, he'll pay $775.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: $1650 a month.

THERAPIST: I imagine overall like to be getting this apartment with somebody you know, like your brother, for $875, seems reasonable.

CLIENT: It is. Yeah. Absolutely. Because I was looking at maybe paying $900 or $950 for other crappy apartments so this is great.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know if he can afford it, but my mom is going to figure that out. So that's -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (inaudible). This is certainly cheaper than a lot of stuff and yeah, we're paying for not having to be in a five bedroom house with random hippies from Craig's List. We're paying extra for that, you know? But in the meantime I'm freaking out because I have this car payment and I have all this debt and this $200.

THERAPIST: You said $2000.

CLIENT: So it's like $17,000 between credit cards and the mattress and oh, not including a loan I took from my retirement which I pay back at $150 a month and consider taking as a distribution but it's too complicated because they can't like stop payment on my account and I'd have to close my bank account and that's way too much of a hassle and I'd be taxed anyway and I'm just paying myself back so it's like if I'm going to have a thing, this is what I'm going to have to keep. So anyway you know my father's been giving me $250 a month which I've felt horrible about, but it's been helpful. My mom is like, 'don't regret the car thing because it's like you'll have car payments irregardless of whether you're moving or not.' So just leave it alone. You wanted to do it. You were impulsive, You thought you were moving. Whatever. Get over it. You like the car? Just be happy with it. Just think about the other stuff. You know?'

First of all I feel frustrated because I know my father has $10,000 to $15,000 in a bank account that he could, without harm to himself or his family, give me as a loan or early part of my inheritance instead of a wedding because by the time I get married I'll be old and maybe able to pay for it myself or part of it, or whatever. Marry somebody that's older and has more money and will want to pay for it whatever the case may be. He could offer that to me. And I wouldn't be throwing money down the toilet with the interest and I could possibly have a couple of years to get myself in a better place, salary-wise and whatever and then start paying him back. There's all these things, right. But they're just not it's just not coming out of their mouths. And I'm now faced with the situation of this $250 extra a month because of the new rent, because I pay $675 currently, is significant in terms of my funding and how much money I have and the other bills and things like that. So what he did tell me was that Grandma has $5,000 that she's planning to give all of us and if I want it I can have it to help with some of the debt. And that's fine and that's great. But first of all, the rest of the $250, because they're being all weird and cheap and I don't know what's going on really. Why they wouldn't just like help me. Like anyway. Like I don't really want to have money from them anymore. It's like it's just that I'm going back to this place and saying, 'if you're not going to really do for me what would actually just be helpful which is not just $250 a month to help pay down this debt that seems to be taking forever, then I don't want anything. Secondly, I don't have money for the deposit, which is like $2,000 for this apartment, to sign, first, last, security whatever it is.

THERAPIST: First month and security.

CLIENT: It's like first, security and half (unclear) or (unclear), whatever. So that would already be like the $250 going towards that now instead. So I told them, stop giving me the $250 and that will by January paid off the deposit and if that's acceptable stop giving me the $250 altogether and we'll be even with the deposit and I don't have to pay you back. Give me the $5,000 from Grandma which will go towards paying down the two lower balance, but higher interest cards and I'll continue paying the minimum on the higher balance cards with the medium interest which is like 6.24 on that card that had like $10,000 on it because I had a balance transfer. And then I'll continue paying the minimum which at the rate it's like if you keep paying the minimum, this is how long it will take you. Twenty-six years. I'm like, awesome, like thanks.

Or, so I'm feeling frustrated and a little panicked because I'm really going to be like so tight it's going to be really difficult I can't spend money without thinking about it. Not that I'd necessarily want to be, but like I can't just say yes to like a sporadic drink or dinner or lunch with friends. Like I can't forget my lunch at home and have to buy it. I can't buy anything extra ever, and eliminate things I do that are extra. And maybe can't afford to do activities like I want to do like (unclear) classes which cost money and like coming to therapy more. And I'm feeling really frustrated and really nervous about it and I've been kind of up and down about it this week. Like some days I'm like just excited I'm getting the apartment and looking forward and all this stuff and I'm just so panicked about how I'm going to manage things and I'm feeling just so frustrated at my dad and Tracy.

My mom told me yesterday that apparently Tracy's father has stopped being giving, like he used to be giving, like he's always been like rich. But then he's stopped and he doesn't have as much money as he thought he did or something weird with that which is why Dad and Tracy have stopped giving and they think they shouldn't be giving their children money anymore. But like I said, I feel like hurt that instead of just kind of offering something like I know that they could, like I'm willing to say, 'forget about the wedding money' just so I can be a little happier now,' and like maybe have some sort of savings started for myself because I'm not putting money to the credit cards or whatever, you know? But if I ask I'll just get shot down because if they would do it they would have already offered it, you know? And I like feel like a brat saying that but like it would really be helpful you know. And Stephanie could even like bring up a promissory note of some sort, you know? Some sort of interest or something with me and my father. Like maybe you could give him that option. Like as a lawyer, I could come up but I don't think that he would. It just feels like it's like punishment for having made this mistake and having made mistakes in our relationship and making mistakes spending money and the money that we spent on teeth and I wasn't paying as much on credit cards back. And all this stuff and I feel like I'm being punished for it and I feel like I'm not going to be able to have the social life like I want to have and I'm going to be in a new apartment which is great and I'm happy about that and whatever, but like if I'm down still stressing about money, then what's the fucking difference?

I don't know how I can try to get that through to my dad and Tracy in any other way and they keep saying they understand. Yeah, I understand why that would be difficult. And like, oh yeah, it is going to be hard. Like what and they easily go out to meals, like I think like 10 times a week, you know, and do all these fucking activities and like do all this bullshit. Like I get it. You don't want to give your adult children money or have to be involved and you think it's too much already. But if you have it, why not help? People's parents lend them money for a down payment on houses all the time. I'm like at the point where I'm considering like selling some of my favorite things because I know that they can make me a little bit of money. Because I don't want to like I literally have no money. Like all the time. And even if I get a raise, like maybe $100 a month extra like goes in two seconds, you know. Like even if I am like eating in all the time, it's just like, I don't know, it doesn't feel good to not to feel like I'm facing a situation (crying) where like if Stephanie calls me and says, 'do you want to go have a drink tonight or go have dinner?'

I have to check everything and then be like yes or no. Or oh like, hey I ended up in the square after work like for drinks. We're having drinks. You want to come?' Or whatever. And I can't. I have like some extra babysitting money coming in here and there but like it's not, it's like sporadic, so it's not anything that I can count on, that's like extra money. And then I'm talking to my father and he brings up if I want to get in touch with his fucking friend who knows about translation services for the fucking courts. Like I don't even know, like it's a conversation we've had before where I've been like it would be difficult for me because there are so many native speakers that do this job. This is what I've encountered in the past whenever I've applied for this job. And I actually specifically told him like 'thank you for the suggestion. It's very sweet.' Like originally, 'very sweet suggestion, Dad, but I think that we can probably leave this off the list as a good -' but he fucking brings it up again. Like, you're such a dick. Like the solution that you have is for me to find a second ' I'm frustrated and I don't really know.

Tracy wrote me this morning that he's supposed to call me about what we're going to do about the holiday and he's finding out about the money from Grandma and it's like, 'okay, great. You guys are making it so that I get the Grandma money or whatever.' But I still, the situation hasn't changed in terms of my budget and paying the minimum on this card and but it still means I'm like strapped all the time. I just would love like a couple of years to get my salary up to a better place. I mean, because within a couple of years I can have a job that's probably going to be paying me $20,000 more than I am now. Because of just what I'm looking at in terms of the next step and what the salary grades are at MIT for those jobs. And I can manage maybe paying them back then. Even with some sort of interest. Way better than I can now. Not to mention that in two years, my lease will be over and I can figure out a maybe less expensive car option for next time, you know. That would be a really nice thing. But I don't know how to ask them that without it being like weird or them just straight up saying no, like why are you even asking, you know? Like kind of the option of living in their apartment that they just bought until they rent it out and hoping -

THERAPIST: What happened with that? I remember you mentioning wondering about that. CLIENT: Well maybe, don't know, for a couple of months while you're getting it fixed up, I could live there and help out a little on it was basically like, 'oh, that's a good thought, but no, we need to rent it out immediately.' I'm like, 'okay.' I mean, they're going to make a killing off of that place. Are you kidding me? I'm sure their mortgage is low enough for them to be charging at least $1,000 more for the place. I'm sorry, we're talking Brookline around the corner from the high school. And it's like a two or three bedroom condo. I mean they're going to be making money off of that apartment. It's not just covering the mortgage. Like fuck you, Tracy. You know? I'm not fucking wrong. They wouldn't have bought it if they were going to be just covering the mortgage with whatever they could charge for rent. It wouldn't have made sense unless it was a moneymaker. I feel like if I had that little extra bit of money that I wasn't paying to the credit cards, I could manage myself that much more easily, put a little more in savings every month even though it's a small amount, even if it's not consistent. At least get that ball rolling for myself and then have a little bit more money to play around with so I don't feel like the fucking hermit, single, 30-year old loser living with her brother.

(Pause): [00:30:55 00:31:04]

CLIENT: And I can't and their response is just like, 'yeah, that sucks.' And I'm okay, like I have a nice car and I have nice things and I have stuff to show for my credit card debt. Fine. Like I've bought stuff. And like yeah, I can manage without manicures. I can do it. But like even without that stuff I still am like just affording -

THERAPIST: Extremely tight.

CLIENT: Right. Like two meals out, maybe. Like and that's like not and the thing is, budgeting stuff for that stuff means that I am at zero at the end of the month after budgeting x-amount for groceries, x-amount for drinks, and x-amount for entertainment and then it's like I have zero for emergencies or for, 'oh I forgot,' I don't know. My fucking shampoo still that I need to buy a new one. Like -

THERAPIST: Random crap.

CLIENT: And that makes me really uncomfortable and they can help with that and they're not. (Pause): [00:32:23 00:32:34]

CLIENT: And I get it. They just bought a fucking condo and put a down payment on it, okay? But I'm sure they've probably made a nice sized down payment so like there's money. They have money. Am I being a fucking spoiled brat? I don't think I am because they have it. It's not like my whole family's poor and I can't do anything about it. They can fucking help me and they're just choosing not to because of some fucked up, "we've helped our kids too much." Or Tracy's dad might not help as much in the future or Ethan's not going to be eligible for fucking thousands in grants and scholarships based on his insanely huge brain. Like come on.

(Pause): [00:33:12 00:33:23]

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: That he's started college and he's going to get all sorts of grants and scholarships. It's not like they're worried, 'oh my God we're going to have to pay for MIT.' Like, no we'll get him half way free to MIT and his grandparents, regardless of what their money issues are, have money set aside for college. Like he has three functioning grandparents. I don't know. I just feel like if they do it then what it's just like I'm not going to learn my lesson? I mean, really?

(Pause): [00:34:02 00:34:33]

THERAPIST: It's like you're looking for some reassurance from me that you have a right to be so sort of hurt and angry with them. I think in part because you feel very sort of worried and ashamed that you're in this situation and you feel guilty about it. And at the same time you're pissed off. You feel like, look how my brothers get taken care of. And what the fuck?

CLIENT: And he doesn't even have any debt. Why do you think he doesn't have any debt? Because they were fucking helping him the whole time.

(Pause): [00:35:33 00:35:51]

THERAPIST: At the same time -

(Pause): [00:35:51 00:36:13]

THERAPIST: This may sound critical, but it's not (unclear) but to say it but at the same time I'm wondering why you're laying it all out to me in this way rather than laying it all out to them in that they're the ones you're upset with. And it's totally fine that you're laying it out I'm not I'm trying to understand that. I think particularly because you have misgiving towards that.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Doubt whether it's legit to feel the way you do about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I do doubt it. I mean part of me feels like but actually talking to my mother, she validated that I'm right to feel this way. Not by saying, 'you're right.' Because I think that she can't say that and she's hurt by the whole situation, too. On her (unclear) in terms of my dad sucking as a person, overall.

THERAPIST: I guess it also seems like if I don't sort of validate in the way that she did, it sort of maintains that sense of doubt that you have.

CLIENT: Well, doubtful regardless. The way that she put it was you know, people all the time, if their kids are in need will give their kids something and say well it's part of your inheritance that now you will not get eventually and change the will and give it to them then. And that was the way that she stated it. And you know, because she was like you know that you'll have an inheritance. So this is sometimes what people do. I mean I think that I am doubting it a little bit just because that they have helped me many times for many years at many different instances and recently just with the transition and giving me the money.

THERAPIST: I'm shaking my head, not because I doubt the veracity of what you're saying but because I think there are other reasons you doubt it. Such as (unclear) worth it. Or you feel that you've been irresponsible.

CLIENT: I do. I feel like I should be being punished. That I'm so stupid and I'm so fucking dumb, and I'm an idiot. Like I do feel like that. But I feel like my father is not in any place to be imposing any kind of punishment on myself more than I already do, like to me, like myself, which I do. Like if feel like shit all the time because of this money thing.

(Pause): [00:38:48 00:38:55]

CLIENT: But is it like going to be then what, so that I'm I feel like shit about it. I feel like I'm being punished about it. And I'm still going to be thinking about Franklin all the time in this new place because I'm here all the time and really go out and spend money on anything because of Franklin, because I made the mistake, because of the choices, because of the teeth, because of the you know and that's what I'm afraid of, like literally not being able to get over this relationship, like because I'm paying for it for 20 years. Like what the fuck. That's really what it feels like, like (crying) this credit card debt literally feels like I'm paying for the mistake I made of being with him and that really feels terrible, you know? (Crying)

THERAPIST: Yeah,

CLIENT: And they don't get it. And like when I try to explain it to them and the reason I'm laying it out to you and not them is because they don't get it and because I just feel like it's, 'well, that's not our problem,' kind of, 'well, that's ridiculous.' Like, 'we'd still pay for your wedding.' So that's not an option. Or, 'we don't know what your inheritance is going to be, so we can't say that,' or, 'that's a lot of money. We don't have that kind of money to give.' All of which, like -

THERAPIST: I guess I'm wondering if it's also the case that you're not laying it out to them this way because you're really ashamed about it. I don't know enough about your interactions with them to know -

CLIENT: What do you mean, 'ashamed of?'

THERAPIST: Well, that you feel, as you say, you blame and punish yourself so much for being in this situation. You feel so bad about how you got here, whether because of this stuff with Franklin, or I don't know, I don't know if there's other family stuff or not, but you're saying you're punishing yourself about it and you feel really bad about it and I don't know how much of it is a factor like I could imagine that would also make it hard to talk to them about it. However, I don't know enough about your interactions with your parents to know if it's also the case that as you say let me put it another way. It would be pretty cold if they said, 'well, that doesn't make any sense. Too bad, get over it.'

CLIENT: They kind of have already. (Cross talk).

THERAPIST: Okay. If you've laid it out like this and they've said that.

CLIENT: Well, I don't know if I laid it out like so specifically like this but like I have in the past said the issue, brought it into question if it's possible to like get any money that they had planned on spending on my wedding so that I'm not really tight every day and that has not been further discussed. And I also said it in an e-mail that I had an offer to come up with a promissory note of any kind of loans so that there was an agreement and Tracy also kind of just passed right by over that as well and didn't comment on it. So it makes me feel uncomfortable to be more direct with it.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I think it's already pretty cold that they are just not that they're not even considering that discussion with me, similar to not even considering a discussion about me living in the apartment for a couple of months until I find something good.

THERAPIST: Right. (Pause) What you're describing is kind of like them brushing you off.

CLIENT: Right. That's what it feels like. 'You'll get through it, honey. I know it's hard now.' But that's like really Tracy. (Pause) Oh, I know it's tough, but you'll get the Grandma money and then we'll figure out the deposit and then I know it'll be hard.' I mean what? I mean she did a PhD, so like she had help later into life because she was doing her PhD and you know, her parents had money and I'm not sorry, I know they we're giving her money into your 30s. I don't know. We'll see what my father has to say about what he and Tracy discussed last night regarding the grandma money and the deposit. I mean are you saying you think I ought to lay it out to them like that?

THERAPIST: No, no, no, I'm not saying that. I'm trying to -

CLIENT: Because if you're telling me I should, then I will.

(Pause): [00:44:13 00:44:30]

THERAPIST: No I'm not necessarily saying you should. It does seem to me you haven't laid some of it out to them as clearly as you have with me but I don't know how much they know and how much they don't.

CLIENT: About what?

THERAPIST: Well, about how tight things are.

CLIENT: They do. They know every single thing about my budget. Everything that's wrong.

THERAPIST: Then I guess you really have laid it out to them.

CLIENT: I mean my father knows exactly how much I owe on credit cards. He knows exactly how much is owed on the bed, exactly what interest rates for each card and the balances.

THERAPIST: That's a lot.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I mean, that's a lot of information.

CLIENT: Right.

(Pause): [00:45:13 00:45:17]

CLIENT: I mean they're actively avoiding a conversation about it and actively not offering any additional help.

THERAPIST: Right. I guess it was weird to me what you are now clarifying, the extent to which you kind of partially or indirectly said these things which I know is something people do when they're feeling ashamed, as you also have said you are. Do you know what I mean by and also right. So you are ashamed of it, but that's not what's going on if they have that amount of detail.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm not ashamed that I tell them I'm ashamed, like I'm ashamed that this is what's really going on.

THERAPIST: Yeah, then as far as my (unclear), as kind of (unclear) are two reactions that she places around this. One is that enters into these feelings, which has nothing to do with dollars and cents, per se, but with your feeling about your mistakes, about feeling crummy about yourself and it feels like punishment. It sucks. There's no question about that. But it's not actually punishment. You know what I mean? Like there's something going on with it feeling that way. And you know, I would wonder if there are, in other words, understand what contributes to your ending up with things being so tight.

CLIENT: And they just give, give, give, give, give?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I just spend, spend, spend, spend, spend? Like when I wanted to do everything for him like fix his teeth and take him to places that he's never been and do nice things together and do fun things together and go to nice meals? And it didn't seem like a huge deal because we were going to be together forever, so in the long run, who cares?

THERAPIST: We should stop.

CLIENT: Okay. So I'll see you tomorrow?

THERAPIST: Yes. Tomorrow and then Wednesday.

CLIENT: And then Wednesday at 9:15.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you. Have a nice weekend.

THERAPIST: All right. Have a good weekend.

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