TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: It's a little chilly in here.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: Because, you know, I'm like in a dress.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. All right, I can turn it up a bit.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Well, I'm really glad it's like almost the long weekend already. This week has been really difficult to be at work. Just because it's like every day I'm like, what's the point?

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And also because I just keep feeling like I'm having these like fragmented periods of vacation, that they're like super disjunct or connected or whatever. So I was going through my wallet the other day, because I carry around all sorts of crap in it and it was like heavy and I couldn't close it, and I'm like, what going on? So I got rid of a bunch of stuff. And I found this that I had been carrying around still in my pocket—I mean in my wallet—that was a list of stuff for me and Franklin to work on, like we each had a list. And like these fucking lines are like, "Okay, this is what we can do together." And this is so characteristic of our entire relationship. And I like carried it with me to work because I wanted to tell Stephanie about it or somebody, and then I almost threw it away, because I was like, who cares, why do I need to show somebody how this is so characteristic? But then I just found it in my bag just now and it was like, oh, I'll show you. [1:30]

But okay, so mine are pay off—so we should pay off my bills and save money, work on not getting angry, work on not biting my cuticles, work on not sleeping in, work on my frustration, work on not giving up, and work on picking at my skin. Also learn and practice also: attempt breakdancing, exercise, do all the projects I put off, and work on my study skills. Okay. And then his are getting up on time, going to bed earlier, saving money, working on his looks, and making his own lunch. And to develop his languages, wardrobe, work, health, cooking, study habits and dance. And I looked at it and I was like, why do I have so many more things on my list that are like super—like not—like these are all like—his are all like more—I don't even know how to explain it. Like mine are like frustration, not getting angry, not giving up, not picking my cuticles, not doing all whatever. He doesn't have anything like that. It's just like, oh, I should work on my fucking looks? Like you loser. And this is so characteristic of our entire relationship. That's what I felt when I read it. [3:00]

THERAPIST: Are you thinking in part that what's frustrating is this stuff is a lot of the stuff that you had been working on, not all of it, but some of it would have been for him?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And a lot of the stuff that he would have been working on on his list would also have been for him.

CLIENT: Mm hm, exactly. That's exactly what it was. I was like, this is all him. I was reading one of those, like this is not how I would prioritize these things, like at all. And I never wanted to attempt breakdancing ever. Looks? I read that and I was like, what does that even mean? Work out? Buy more clothes? I don't know? Like take more weird pictures that you post on Facebook? And I went out with Stephanie the other night, and it was all right, it was kind of a bust because both the places we went were like lame crowds and like a million girls. But we ended up at a bar where this guy that we—that DJs that went to high school with us was there and was playing songs that we like and whatever, so it was fine, we danced it up. But at one moment I got really annoyed because I thought to myself—like I have this feeling when I go out, what if I see Franklin and a girl or something, you know. And then I was like, no, of course I'm not going to see them at a fucking place like this because why would any couple that's enjoying a night out go to a loser club? That's how I felt about it. And I got really angry and was like, fuck you, I have to know if this is what this has come to. Which I mean it was stupid, and it passed quickly because I was like, who cares, I'm hanging out with Stephanie like real cute. It wasn't a big deal. Nobody was hitting on me, which is good kind of because I didn't have to like field losers hitting on me, but also I was like, really guys? I look pretty good. Like nobody's trying to talk to me? But it was fine, it was fine. But I did get that feeling of like, oh, I probably will never see Franklin anywhere that I'm going because he's in a couple and doing couple stuff and I'm like on the prowl, and don't want to be. [5:20]

So that's how I feel about that. I signed my lease. Oh god, the drama surrounding the fucking— Okay, whenever I was talking to Tracy all week e-mailing her, and then she finally has said to me, "Tell them you can sign the lease whenever you want. If dad hasn't called you already he will call you soon to discuss, you know, the deposit and grandma's money and the whole thing." Okay, so I'm like, great. So in the meantime I call my mother, "Hey, can you get Michael's money," because she's the only one that can authorize it. "We're going to sign the lease at 10:00 am on Saturday, can you get it by then? If you're having any trouble just let me know and maybe we can work something out with dad or whatever." — "Okay, okay."

So then I meet up with my father on like Friday night. Yeah, he was at Jesse's—it was Jesse's last day of school and then he had his last game. I don't know, whatever. So I went to meet up with my father there. He doesn't even—he hasn't—now, he never called me, by the way. He never—whatever. Just—he then texted me like, "You want to go to dinner?" Like at three hours before—whatever. So I met him at the park. I wasn't going to dinner, but I met him at the park to talk to him. And so we decided to take a little walk— No, first he doesn't even say anything about—or I'm saying anything about it—he's like old and fat, and like it made me hate him a little, and wearing like shorts with sandals and socks. It's nothing different than how he's ever looked or been or done, but I just like—it was like, I hate you. Like, I hate your outfit, I hate that you can't not be a dork like 100% of the time, and an asshole. Anyway, he's not saying anything about it—

THERAPIST: [chuckles]

CLIENT: I'm totally ashamed of him. I've always been ashamed of my parents though. I guess I've never talked about that. [7:25]

THERAPIST: Well, we should.

CLIENT: But I am definitely more of him than anyone. Definitely more than my mom. I'm not—well, my mom is linked in to—like my feeling of shame about my mom is linked in partially to her having gained so much weight, you know, during my adolescence, and now throughout my 20s. But it was more linked when I was younger to her drinking and like feeling different because my mom drank and nobody knew and whatever when I was younger and the whole thing. But anyway, so he's not saying anything to me. He's like, "Oh, let's take a walk around the track." And I was like, "Great." Because we're at a town's field. And I'm like, "So we're signing the lease tomorrow, so Tracy told me that you were gonna talk to me about what we were doing about the money." He had no idea what I was talking about. I mean, he was just like, "What? No, Tracy didn't talk to me." And I was like, oh my god. He's like, "How much? What? [inarticulate imitating rapid speech]." You know. [8:30]

THERAPIST: This is the grandmother money with the money for the first and last security or whatever?

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which I've gotten angry at Tracy and finally have been like, "Here's what we're doing. Stop giving me $200 a month and we'll just you help me out. And the money for the deposit will be you can—I'll take that as like a loan against myself from the $4000 to come in and then you give me the difference." Right? That was because I was like, "Fuck you guys," basically. And Tracy was like, "I understand, sounds good." Like yeah, you stupid whore. But apparently she didn't talk to my father about it. Or I don't know what the fuck. And then I—first I tell him—I'm like getting upset and I tell him how I felt really upset, that I felt like he kept pushing this off, he wasn't calling, I didn't know what was going on, I wasn't sure why he wasn't calling me back. And it made me feel like way less than any kind of priority when I've been agonizing over this all week and really concerned and working really hard on it and whatever. And he said, "Well, I just—I've been flat out, so don't take it personally." I was like, "How much more personal does it get right now, dad?" Like, "You're my father, I'm your only daughter and struggling." It was like, "Really, you don't want me to not take it personally?" What does that even mean? Like, I take it extremely personally. I don't care if you're flat out. You're not flat out enough that you're going and doing stuff with your son and wife. And she's not saying, "Oh, have you called Trina?" Like what is going on in that fucking house? [10:00]

And then he says to me, "Well, wait, wait, wait, wait. Why are you signing the lease two months before you would move in?" I was like, "What?" Like why wouldn't I want to and why wouldn't you want me to secure a place? Like, "What are you talking about, dad? Where were you during our conversation and what I've been writing to Tracy that she had to have [unclear 10:24] with you about how difficult this whole process has been and how there's not much out there? What is going on in your brain that you would say such a thing?" So it was like, "Sure dad, I can hold off. But the person that applied behind me that has a check ready will get the apartment and then I'm stuck searching again for the summer." He's like, "Oh, is that how it works?" It's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Maybe—no, you know, he doesn't have early Alzheimer's, like he's just a retard. So then he's like, "Well—" getting all upset about me and my debt and the money, "Well, we already gave you $200—" No, one thing he said to me, "We already give you $200 a month, what else do you want from us?" And I was like, "To give me a large amount so that we're not burning both of our money on interest, like literally lighting it on fire." And he's like, "Well." And then I mentioned—no, this actually happened the next day. [11:20]

So I get all upset. Oh, and then I'm all upset telling him how—oh right, talking about like, "I don't care if this is money you would spend on my wedding, at this point by the time I get married we'll probably be paying for a lot of it ourselves. This is more important to me right now than anything that you would use this—" And then he gets all upset. And I was like, "Don't tell me in an argument that I have a million dollars if you really are just like—don't have it or whatever." And he's like, "Well, I don't know. I mean, that's in my retirement and I don't know what it will imply with taxes. Are you going to pay the taxes?" And I was like, "Yeah, I will. I'll roll that into a monthly payment to you. It's better than interest. Or if you can take a loan against your retirement, and then I literally pay you interest that you're paying—" And he's like all freaking out about it. I didn't want to go to dinner. He said come over to the house later we'll finish the discussion. Meanwhile I wanted to slap Tracy when I found out that—

THERAPIST: He hadn't said anything like that.

CLIENT: Or whatever, or it hadn't been made clear. So okay, I don't go to dinner. I guess Jesse got upset at my father because I didn't end up at dinner.

THERAPIST: He wanted to see you.

CLIENT: Mm hm. And I feel a little bad, but I also am a little justified in the fact that Jesse understood this is our father's—like this is dad's fault. I saw him like giving him a hard time, you know. So we're over there, Jesse's playing on the computer doing whatever, and I started a question with my dad. He starts asking me to write down all of the credit card debt, or send in the statements. I'm like, "Listen, all I need right now is actually the $200 from June because I'm broke," and blah blah blah," I literally had no money at that moment, "and then we can call it quits. And the check that I'm taking as a loan against myself." So he get all angry, like scribbles a blank check and throws it at me. Tracy's like standing there. [13:30]

Mind you, her actions made me almost as infuriated—no, I mean, it was like the way that she was behaving mixed with her outfit I was going to go insane. She was wearing—I mean, she always wears literal like mom jeans, but like pulled up above her belly up to her fucking boobs, no bra, no deodorant. Like, I have a huge problem with this woman. I mean, for years—I don't know if she does because I don't go with them as frequently, but when we would go to Chicago she brings like a paper bag, like Trader Joe's paper bag, with like underwear and socks. Like, first of all, why don't you bring an overnight bag, this is so weird. Secondly, you wear the same outfit the entire fucking weekend and you don't wear deodorant. And your hair—and whatever. But then she had these sandals. Okay, they're a socks and sandals kind of family. They're huuuuuuuge dorks. I've kind of come to terms of that in terms of not being able to change that. But not only does she have literally orthopedic—like she wears orthopedic—she's 50-something, she wears shoes that are for a 70 year old. Orthopedic sandals that are like duty brown color with thick white tube socks said "Asics" on the front. And when I saw that I was already infuriated with her and I was almost like, "I hate you both." Like, "Get out of my life with your awful style." Like, "Ugh, spend some money on that instead of paying off my debt, please." But instead she was standing there, literally standing there watching the conversation, I'm like crying and screaming, Jesse's in the other room being traumatized. Not really, because he's been around this for 13 years already. But she's like looking at us—you know, and she reads us because she's deaf. She's a therapist.

THERAPIST: Right. [15:30]

CLIENT: So first of all dad said to her, "Well, what did you tell me?" And then we both look at her. And she's like, "Well, um, uh." She's like fumbling. Like, I don't think she fucking said a word to him. Or if she did it was something like, "Trina needs to talk to you about money." Because she's like fumbling, "Well, I mentioned that you didn't—and then the lease and the grandma's money." And I was like, "All right, whatever, it doesn't matter. I'll tell you now, dad, this is the deal. X, Y, Z, no $200. I'll take care of my debt, you guys aren't willing to help me any further, fine." So then he gets all upset, that's when he scribbled the blank check. Like he felt that— She's still watching the whole time. And so finally I'm like crying and explaining how I'm agonizing over this and that I literally feel like I'm imprisoned by my former relationship because of this money situation. And how— Oh, and at one point in the conversation I said, "You know how it's frustrating that—" Like literally the shorts I was wearing, you could have fit another person in them. I was like, "I'm losing weight and at a weight that I feel comfortable with, which is fantastic, but none of my pants fit me and I can't even afford—like I don't have money for pants," I'm putting it on a paper. He's like, "Well, I don't know, then shop at the Salvation Army." Like, that's not a solution. What are you talking about? You know? [16:55]

So we're going back and forth, I'm all upset, I'm saying this and that. Then I'm finally I'm like, "I don't understand why you can't give me money." Like, "I don't care." And he's yelling about taxes again. And I'm like, "I will pay those. But you don't understand, we're burning money, we're throwing it down the toilet, this is absurd." And then he starts back at me, he gives me a blank piece of paper to write stuff down. I'm like, "I'm not writing shit down for you." Like, "If anything the $200, whether or not it was going to any credit card debt, was helping me because I fucking had a shitty relationship and you were able to help me. So fuck you with that. You can't see my statements, no."

And so then finally he looks up and he goes, "What do you think Tracy?" And she literally, standing there the whole time watching our conversation, "You know, I'm sorry, I don't hear very well so I didn't hear all of it." I was like, wow, okay. Like you use that when it's convenient for you, Tracy. Like I tried to communicate— And then I said to her, "This is hard because I tried to commun—you know, I was told that it's not easy to communicate with dad so do it with Tracy via e-mail. I did that, and she told me she was communicating with dad and didn't.

THERAPIST: Right. [18:00]

CLIENT: And then he starts getting upset that he's sick of writing bills and he sick of paying this and he's always working and he's always doing everything. I was like, "All right, join the club." And of course he got really mad at that. And I was like, I mean, I'm not trying to be disrespectful, I know you've been in this club a lot longer than I have, like you're way old. But you also chose to get remarried and have a kid, so you could probably be retired right now if it weren't for that. And sorry your kids are messes, but this is the fucking card you were dealt, this is card we were dealt. And what the fuck are you talking about? You have a wife, she's standing right here, she works and makes a living and has a retirement herself. And he says, "Well, yeah, Tracy does some days." Which I don't know what that even means. I think that maybe—I don't know how they deal with—because if he's feeling all this way I don't know what the fuck is going on in their marriage, and I don't really care. I'm not sure how either of them tolerate each other, or anybody tolerates either of them for too long. I don't know, I'm so angry. So then the next morning I'm like, fine, I have this check, okay.

THERAPIST: You know, like a huge shit show. [19:10]

CLIENT: Huge shit show. It gets shittier. Because the next morning I call my mom and I say, "Okay, I have my check and stuff, I'm going to do a couple errands and then come by, pick up Michael and his money." "Well, I don't have all of it, I only have $600 of the $1500." I was like, "Mom." "Well, I can only take $600 out at the ATM and I can only take it out of the ATM because of X, Y, Z, I don't know what's going on with the account." And I said, "What the fuck?" I said, "I spoke to you yesterday and I said if you can't do it today that's okay we can push it to later, but now it's an hour before the fucking signing and I've got to inconvenience everybody and change it. What are you fucking doing?" And then she says, "Well, I can get the other $600 and then maybe dad can loan the $400 still remaining, but I have to do it after swimming so not till like 11:30 or 12:00." It's like, "I just told you the signing is at 10:00." "Well, you didn't tell me what time the signing was." "Yes I did." I don't understand why I try to make things happen in this family that like work and flow, like with the Tracy and the e-mailing and the—and everything gets fucked up. And then everybody's like, "Well, you didn't tell me," or, "How was I supposed to know," [unclear 20:17] to explain myself when I've been the one staying organized and taking care of shit, you know. So I ended up having to fucking go to my father's house, get extra money—no, no, no, I had to end up talking to my father on the phone and getting him to agree to a $3000 check instead of $1500. Luckily it was blank. [20:30]

Okay, fine, we go sign the lease, whatever. I wait for mother to give me the rest of the money. I have to go then straight to my father's house to give him the $1500 cash because he doesn't think that he has it in his bank. Which I don't know, maybe or maybe not be true. I don't know, that's probably plausible. To deposit that money and also deposit a bunch of checks. And then I have to bring him to go deposit the checks, because Tracy's going grocery shopping, to deposit the cash in one account so he has a— And this all could have been avoided, all of it, had people been responsive, had people listened to me, and had people been respectful of me trying to stay organized with something that maybe they don't give a shit about but that I do give a shit about and that's really important to me. And since then I haven't had any further discussions with him about anything, besides him calling me to ask me if I could do something for him. Oh yeah, in the meantime I was like, "Yeah, I do appreciate your help, and I'm willing to help you with stuff if you feel so overwhelmed." He's like, "You want to help me? Fine. Come by the house tomorrow and dig out the plants on the side of the house because they're bringing ants in the house. It'll take about an hour." I was like, "That's what you're going to ask me to do right now?" Like you have a 13 year old, digging in the dirt sounds way more up his alley at his house. I'm talking about organizational stuff, helping you keep—you know, doing stuff that I'm good at that I can— It was so absurd and so disrespectful.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [22:00]

CLIENT: Like, you want to help me? Come fucking slave like you're 12 again. And then he got all mad at me because I'm like the next day I couldn't do it. And I was [unclear 22:07], it was hot out, I was wearing a mini skirt and like a tank top and sandals. I was like, "Dad, I'm not going to dig in the dirt, I have better shit to do, sorry. If you want me to come help you do something more important, like take you to the bank, sure." It's just a total shit show. And it was so stressful during the whole week, and I felt some sort of kind of [unclear 22:28] when Tracy was like, you know, "Don't worry, sign the lease whenever, we'll—" blah blah blah, to have it all blow up in my face again. So needless to say, not really a relaxing weekend.

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like it at all. It sounds like you had to struggle and be humiliated to try to get anything you wanted. [23:00]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Like with the part about him wanting you to dig up the plants by the side of the house as sort of, you know, capping it off, but it was kind of like that the whole way through.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I think at least [unclear 22:21], having to kind of ask for stuff which you hated to have to ask for in the first place about fifteen times in fifteen different ways and to different people, and ways that made you I think feel like you were being sort of disorganized and shameful and irresponsible. Which stepping back I think that you weren't, but it was as though you were made to feel that way I think—

CLIENT: Totally.

THERAPIST: [unclear 22:58]

CLIENT: Yeah. And I mean, part of the worst things was my father is—when he's sitting there asking me to write all my stuff down. Even though I got mad and I said, you know, "I e-mailed Tracy about this all week and she can probably show the e-mails.' He's like, "Well, I'll find the e-mail," you know. So she starts to say, "Well honey, have you looked into if work has any kind of financial," blah blah blah? And I was like, "Yup, we work with credit counseling. I've worked with them in the past, work on a budget, and then I have fallen off because now my budget is different because there's no Franklin. But yes, I should probably get back in touch with them." But it was kind of like, really? So then I get all upset and tell dad the proposal about the retirement money, or, you know, part of my inheritance earlier, and that I'll take the—whatever, or the wedding, anything.

THERAPIST: But it's always like you're [unclear 24:52] and you're like really upset and emotional and I think feeling kind of like a mess dealing with this. I mean, there's screaming, there's crying, there's like a lot of that kind of stuff, which you're sort of like alluding to a little bit, but it sounds like that was how this all happened.

CLIENT: Totally.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was a huge amount. And I was very mad at Tracy because I'm sitting here proposing the thing and her response is to say, "Well, you know, I'm a step by step person. So I think the first thing to do is see if you can consolidate them on lower interest cards."

THERAPIST: Right. You're saying, I've e-mailed you, I've been on top of everything, you've told me you were gonna come through for me. Like, you know, I've done financial plans, spreadsheets, and credit counseling and tried to organize all of it, and look for apartments, this, that and the other thing. You're sort of blowing it off and not doing what I'm asking you to do to help me, and what you said you'll do to help me, in terms of making this easier and talking to my dad. And instead you're going to sit here and treat me like a kindergartener who's never had a credit card and ask me if I've thought about credit counseling or making a budget.

CLIENT: Exactly, exactly. Like fuck you. I've sent you my budget, you stupid bitch. That's how I felt about it, like that angry.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And like the part about the—she was there sending, "Congratulations, good job finding a place, it looks like it matches all of the things that we talked about." Like, "Really good work, honey, I'm so happy for you." But then my father is wondering why I have to sign the lease already? Like where— And it makes me not want to see them.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I feel bad for Jesse. Of course Jesse heard all that, and then was so sweet and gave me a nice hug. I had yelled at him earlier in the day because he gives the most awkward like not hugs.

THERAPIST: A 13-year-old boy hug?

CLIENT: And I had yelled at him. And I'm like, "Jesse, you have to hug. I don't care what you do with the little girls but with me you hug."

THERAPIST: [chuckles] [27:00]

CLIENT: But then he gave me a nice hug because he was like hurt. And then the next day when I was dealing again the money, whatever, he was sitting there again and listening to my father and I discuss the bank and whatever. And I come in and I go, "Listen, enjoy it while you can." And he's like, "Okay." And I was like, "Do you know what I'm talking about?" He was like, "Childhood."

THERAPIST: [laughs]

CLIENT: I was like, "Precisely." I was like, "Do as much stupid stuff as you can do possibly, starting next year in eighth grade, go." He was like, "Okay."

THERAPIST: Yeah. Did you have much of a childhood like that? I don't think so.

CLIENT: Doing stupid stuff?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: More adolescence than childhood. Childhood I was more responsible and—you know, like up until ninth grade I wasn't so bad. But starting in ninth grade, I mean—and this was when also this was like pinnacle of my mom's drinking at this point.

THERAPIST: Ninth grade.

CLIENT: Eighth/ninth grade.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And so I started sneaking out of the house all the time and going with the senior—me and my girlfriends would go with the senior boys, and they would pick us up and we would go to like drink in parking lots. And, you know, I'd smoke cigarettes out of my window in my room. Yeah. So that, I did do that [unclear 28:09]. But no, there was a lot of—yeah, I had a childhood when I went to camp and I—

THERAPIST: Actually—you know, maybe I'm wrong about this, but I think that's a little different. I'm not saying you think it's a bad idea necessarily for him to do that. So but when you're telling him he should have a childhood while he can, while he still can, I don't think that's mostly what you have in mind. It's like—and maybe I'm wrong but—

CLIENT: No, I meant like enjoy not having to deal with money, and enjoy—and having to—

THERAPIST: Or responsibility.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: Like enjoy having people take care of you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Enjoy not having to be responsible for everything, enjoy—

CLIENT: Enjoy having two parents.

THERAPIST: —not having to fight for everything you get. Well, enjoy having two parents there. And I think all of those type of things you probably did not feel a whole lot of.

CLIENT: No. No, he's having a way different childhood than we did. You know, our parents got divorced when I was nine. And my brother was fourteen and that's when he went off the deep end. So no. I mean, it's a very different experience. And they go out to eat all the time. And they're always going on trips and day trips, and to museums, and to this and to that, and you know. Which is another reason why it's so easy to resent them for the way that they're treating me now about money.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, you never had it.

CLIENT: I mean, I—

THERAPIST: I know that he like bought food for you and put clothes on your backs, so like that—

CLIENT: No, but we went on some trips and you know, but not like as a unit ever really. You know, always got trips with mom and trips with dad.

THERAPIST: Right. [30:00]

CLIENT: We did not go out to eat nearly as much as these people do. I don't know, they go out to eat so much. Like at least seven meals a week I'm sure, between like weekends.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know, I think that—

THERAPIST: In other words, it sounds like this weekend and the stuff with the lease was kind of on the worst end of how things are with them, but it generally is kinda somewhere on a spectrum. Like in other words maybe this is like 7 or 8 out of 10 in terms of how things get.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: But there's always some element of—like some degree of the kind of thing that went on this weekend when you sort of want things, or interact with them about stuff.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Yeah, right.

CLIENT: Mm hm. And he like makes me feel guilty. Like I feel guilty like that I haven't lent in yet to help him with grandma's stuff and like that, I haven't—you know, whatever, I don't know. That I didn't dig up the plants. Like he gets me to feel guilty, and I think that's so fucked. Like I don't—I did, I have helped so far with grandma's more than anybody, so there's that. And I'm willing to help more than anybody. Like I don't particularly want to give up any weekends this summer, because it's the summer and I want to enjoy it, and then I'm moving and the semester and the whole thing. But I will give up a weekend to go do that with him if he needs it. [32:00]

THERAPIST: Do you know why he's so sort of—like as you describe it there's a feeling that he's very resentful of doing things for you or giving you things.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And that he's always going to make you pay for it in some fashion or other.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Or make you feel like shit about it.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Or at least if it feels to you like make you grovel for it. Do you know why?

CLIENT: Maybe it's like immigrant—I don't know, like immigrant parents. And he's also an immigrant too. Maybe it's that like immigrant mentality thing. Or like child of Holocaust survivor. I don't know. It's something related to his upbringing. My mom always felt that he never could communicate with women. Like the way that she saw him always communicate with his mother and his sister before she left away, and how he always communicated with my mom. And she said that he's just—the way that he communicates with women is to just like, "Okay, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay." Instead of really listening. Like because he doesn't ever really listen. So maybe that's the case with Tracy, maybe she did tell him stuff, I don't know. But there is—

THERAPIST: But that's not when he's there with you. He's not just, "Yeah, yeah, okay, okay, okay, okay." I mean, he may do that sometimes, which then leads when you sort of say, "Okay, well, you said okay, you said yeah, yeah, yeah." But to be resentful and surprised and, "Wait, what?" But—I mean, yeah, what you're saying, it's like he—he's going to make you grovel, and he's going to make you feel like shit, and he's going to kind of really take it out on you that you want something from him.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And sometimes I get you're saying you feel really ashamed of him and what a dork he is.

CLIENT: Mm hm. And Tracy.

THERAPIST: And Tracy. And what kind of it felt like assholes they both are.

CLIENT: Yeah. And, you know, I just was thinking about it. Like I had them over, I was like, you know, I get we're his kids and he's an older parent, so we should be able to help him with stuff. But also he's not by himself, like he has a wife who's much younger than him. So kind of like in being his wife she's assuming the duty of doing stuff for him. But then I was like, oh my god, is this whole thing about maybe they have some weird dynamic where like she just handles her life and Jesse and like leaves my dad and his brother and his mother and his kids? And then I was like, maybe that's it, maybe that's—because he had asked me to do something, like find out who wants to buy her furniture, my grandmother's furniture, I don't know, something like that, and I just felt like, why isn't Tracy offering to help him with this? Like she's his wife, she's 20 years younger than the guy, you know, why isn't she offering? Why is it falling on me? You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Am I being—like am I being just like, oh, I can't do it? Or would it kind of make sense for somebody's wife to want to help their husband with something that's been extremely stressful and is about his mother dying? Like I feel like she's not compassionate. [36:00]

THERAPIST: So it comes to me why you would assume that's stuff she would do.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Something else that I think is an important feature of all this current stuff is like everybody said… [pause] So wait, I feel like a lot of the—there's so much emotion and intensity around all of this, because like they're all packed up really tight like in a suitcase or something like that. And it doesn't really leave you much room to think or like step back from what's going on or what you're feeling. I'm not saying you sort of can't do those things in general, I'm saying that like… [pause] There's some way that it's very hard to tell what's going on. Or— I mean, because certain things are going on that you were talking about. But… You know, there's also a feeling of like… you know, those like those Rube Goldberg machines, you know what that is? It's like these are like really complicated [and secure? 37:36] machines, like a marble hits this and it falls like that.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: And then this other thing lights a candle.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: And that heats the balloon, and the balloon goes off and it gets—like this sort of complicated contraption.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Like this weekend it sounds sort of like that. Like it all just kind of got—unfold this way, and there was no time to really think about anything or anticipate how it was going to go, like you were just kind of going through the whole machine [overtalk]—

CLIENT: That's exactly how it felt.

THERAPIST: Like you're in desperation. [38:00]

CLIENT: Yes, exactly. [laughter] It was [unclear] that.

THERAPIST: And that that's often what it's like.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And, you know, there's no just say, "Okay, wait a minute. All right." And you would know this if you stopped, but you kinda like—because if I was having—I can't like, "All right, my dad's totally being an asshole in this way and that way. I can see what's going to happen when I walk into his house in one way or another." It's like, yeah, there's a sense of just kind of continuing through. Anyway, I'm not quite sure where that leads but it seems to me somehow important in what you're describing.

CLIENT: Totally.

THERAPIST: But we can stop for now.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So I have had a regular time open up on Tuesdays at 10:00, does that make it for you?

CLIENT: Um, yeah, I think for the summer I'd be—sure.

THERAPIST: All right. Well, why don't we start there and…

CLIENT: So why don't we—so I'll see you next Tuesday at 10:00.

THERAPIST: Yeah, like [coming from?] yesterday at 10:00.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. And then on Fridays at [unclear].

CLIENT: Cool, okay. All right, have a good holiday.

THERAPIST: Thank you, you too.

CLIENT: Thanks. See you next time.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT