TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: ...a little bit of worry thinking maybe all of my vexation and concern and introspection somehow I will find like a small paragraph that somehow summarizes it in a somewhat glib way, like, "Oh, this is what you're doing." Right? (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: And I'm thinking, "Really? That's it?" So I don't want to discover it. I don't want to actually open it up.

THERAPIST: Oh interesting.

CLIENT: It's like, "No." Whatever is going on with me is going to require many shelves.

THERAPIST: Ah, yeah. Many shelves. Yeah.

CLIENT: Many shelves over thousands of years of like people really thinking deeply about things, because that's where we are. Right? It seems... [00:01:01]

It's kind of a snapshot with what... It's almost like a snapshot of what people think about as opposed to a snapshot of actually what's really and actually insightful.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right. It feels like a, like a collection of Cosmopolitan (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. So here's the thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: We have been painting and all of that. I've been painting. I've been doing lots of stuff. And all the while, not, me not looking for work, which has been going on forever, me not looking for work. So then, on Wednesday morning, I get a phone call. But I don't recognize the number so I left to voice-mail. But I listen to the message later, a few hours later. And it's asking me to go in for an interview to a (ph) high school for biology. [00:02:03]

But here's the thing. I've never applied. (LAUGHTER) I have not applied to anything. I have no idea how they got my resume.

THERAPIST: Where is this high school?

CLIENT: Dorchester (ph). As it happens, (inaudible at 00:02:15) first public high school in the United States.

THERAPIST: Oh. I didn't know that.

CLIENT: But that's a historical footnote because the fact is that it's a completely inner city, on the verge of being a complete disaster school and it's not in its original site. So it's not august like in Waltham (ph). It's not this converted. It's been there for probably thirty years in its current location. It's a converted, sort of added onto this factory. So it's kind of a new building-ish, circa thirty, forty years ago. So when you walk inside, it's all primary colors. [00:02:59]

Like there's a blue floor, the green floor, the yellow floor, the red floor. Right? And it's all just sort of cinder block and it's completely (inaudible at 00:03:07).

THERAPIST: Great place, right?

CLIENT: Great place.

THERAPIST: Did you apply there?

CLIENT: That's the thing. Right? So when I applied when I was actually... (PAUSE) Yes. So when I applied to Shrewsbury (ph), I applied to Red Bank and I was offered a biology position at Red Bank but also at Shrewsbury. I chose Shrewsbury because I liked the headmaster at Shrewsbury and also Shrewsbury, it seemed, even though it's a massive, massive complex, it felt more spacious, whereas Red Bank... And somehow, also there was this, there was sort of this do good feeling. Like it felt like there were all these things they were wanting me to do in addition to being a teacher. [00:03:59]

THERAPIST: At Red Bank?

CLIENT: At Red Bank. That's how it felt. And there was this principal who... At the time, I did not know this. I found this out... Like because it felt sort of military like, the school. It turns out he was in the military. He was Portuguese. You know, he's gone. So anyway, fast forward. So Wednesday I get this call and I'm thinking, "I've never replied to anything." (LAUGHTER) So I'm thinking, "Well, maybe they found my resume from five years ago or something like that." So I call back and I said, "I'm happy to interview. I'm delighted. But I honestly did apply. So I don't know how you got my resume." She said, "Well, let me double check." And she said, "Brandon Remmington (ph)?" And I said, "Yes." "Yes. Nine o'clock tomorrow morning if you want to come in." And I said, "Sure. I'll be there." Alright. [00:05:03]

So I thought, "Well, this is interesting. This is totally backwards, you know, as opposed to applying for a job. You simply get a call." And I'm thinking, like, part of me feeling this, "This is kind of it," and also feeling this feeling of real sort of relief and serendipity, thinking, "Oh, the big road block to a job is like the whole looking, looking, looking, applying, going online and filling out these long applications." Now it's like the whole point of that is to get an interview. (inaudible at 00:05:39) Perfect. That's easy. I love it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I... (PAUSE) So my mindset was, you know... I had my normal dress clothes from when I teach but I needed some new dress shoes. I will literally put my best foot forward. Alright? So I will get some dress shoes (inaudible at 00:06:11) [00:06:11]

I didn't have time to send my shirts off to the cleaner. Even though I had plenty of dress shirts, they're all blue and grey and pink and sort of boring. And, since it's a billion degrees and I've got the air conditioning not working, you have to wear white shirts and if you sweat, they'll see it. So my white shirt, I (inaudible at 00:06:33) wash it and I'll actually iron it. So I did that. I'm thinking, "So, I'm all ready." And I go in and I'm waiting. Of course, I'm taking notes, right, in terms of... Like the day before, I went to the website looking at Red Bank and sort of... But not too hard. This is easy. Right? Because there's no stress. It's not like I applied. It's just like... Whatever. [00:07:01]

I thought, "I should actually look at the website and familiarize myself with what's going on." And then, it's not like I haven't been thinking about teaching in terms of my theory.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So... And then I'm reading this book about math and so I think, "Oh, that's a good idea." So I'm writing down little notes just to have buzz words in my mind. I have just the amount of coffee. I show up. It's air conditioned so I'm able to wear my jacket and I feel like I'm looking good. I know what I'm doing. She comes out, the headmaster. I go in. And for an hour it was just this terrific interaction. And she was just... It was a feeling of like, you know (inaudible at 00:07:55) And, you know, first...

THERAPIST: (inaudible) [00:07:59]

CLIENT: I've never had an interview that long.

THERAPIST: Oh. Is that right?

CLIENT: Yeah. So... It usually is sort of like a half hour. The interview was really a half hour. And then after that, it was just sort of us talking.

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: It turns out, she happens to be the headmaster but she also wears two hats because she's the assistant superintendent. She's in charge of all high schools in Waltham.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: But... And so the deal is Red Bank... And sort of this is it's last chance. This is like... So, on a scale of one to five, five being the absolute worst, there are five schools in Waltham that are a four and there are a couple that are five. Red Bank is a five.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: So basically, if they can't turn around this year, the oldest school in the United States, public school, that's it.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: They'll turn the charter. This is the last chance.

THERAPIST: Is it based on what? Like MCAT (ph) scores or something like that?

CLIENT: There's various metrics. But, yeah, that's it.

(PAUSE) [00:09:00]

THERAPIST: So this is the...

CLIENT: So here's the thing. So I felt like, you know, I really liked her. I felt like she liked me and I... While I'm doing it, I'm doing it with the idea of, the idea of teaching. Right? So I was very genuine in my responses and it felt like... I felt like the responses I was giving were the right ones, in the sense that she responded very favorably. Then when she started outlining her goals for the school, it's like, "Oh that happens to be in sync with what I just said." You know. And I asked her about being superintendent and the superintendent was stepping down and all the politics... (inaudible at 00:09:57) like what it means to be in charge of all the high schools. That's a big thing. [00:10:05]

And then she was showing me around the high school (inaudible) So then, I'm walking around. I actually walk into a classroom.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And all of the sudden, not exactly PTSD but pretty close. (LAUGHTER) That feeling of like, "Oh boy." And then leaving one classroom and going to another, there are these two black kids and the guy who was showing me around who's the... He's called the dean of culture. He's this, I'm sure (inaudible at 00:10:41) summer time. He was wearing basketball high tops. He's a black guy. So high tops, shorts, T shirt... You know, I would not have thought he was a dean in demeanor and look. But he is. And so it's good I didn't assume he was not. Right? [00:10:59]

I said, "Oh, what do you teach?" He said, "Well, I'm actually the dean of culture." Which I... Basically, I think that means (PAUSE) provide discipline, et cetera.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: It's not culture as in go to the opera.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:11:21) (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) Exactly, exactly. Handy dandy (ph).

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So there's these two black kids and he like lays into them and, of course, they're insolent. Right? And they talk back. And I'm like, "That's it. That's what I can't stand." It's like you always have a kid or two like that in your classroom. It's like I don't want to do this. I don't want to do it. I do not want to do it. Here I have this fabulous interview. I like her. I like the idea of teaching. But seeing that classroom and seeing these two punks... So, of course, you know, I speak favorably and it's nice and laughs and blah, blah, blah. It's perfectly fine. So it's a normal cinderblock school. [00:12:09]

And so I go and I get in the car and I have this feeling of like, "Well..." Part of me feels like, "This was easy." I feel like I am likely to get the job. Right? And there's a feeling of relief (inaudible at 00:12:27) She said, you know... She said... She said, "So..." She said, "You actually have to apply for the job." I said, "To be honest, I have no idea how to even do that." She says, "Well, you go to this website and you fill this out." (PAUSE) So... Alright. This is completely backwards.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Which... So then, I get home and then I... You know, of course it's hot. So I go into the bedroom where it's air conditioned and I take off my clothes and... [00:13:07]

You know, I put on shorts and then I call home and I tell my dad like I have mixed feelings like all of the sudden. It's like, "I think I might get this and yet I haven't taught in a while and the idea of being inner city..." So he was sympathetic to that but in his mind essentially is it's a job which I totally get and this coming from a person who, as sensitive as he is, he's done a lot of work for much of his life that he did not like because he needed to do it to support a family and I have deep respect for that and I can't know what that's like, what he has done. So he passes the phone to my mom because they have the air conditioner and the air conditioner guy's there. Many things were going on. There was the bug guy coming. All the sudden, various people were showing up at the house. [00:14:05]

So he had to go tend to the air conditioning guy. So my mom's talking and I explain this to her. And she said... She says, "I bet you're hoping they don't offer you a job." And I said, "Yeah." She said, "I understand." She goes... And she goes, "It wouldn't be bad if they offered you the job to turn it down. You don't have to do that." She goes, "I know..." She said, "Your dad doesn't know it. But I know what it's like, how difficult and all-consuming and demanding and stressful it is." And she said, "Is it possible that a job like that..." She goes, "It's not how good you are. But it's how much you can put up with. It's that sort of job." [00:15:03]

I said, "Yeah." She said... She goes, "You want to educate and you feel like you are up there completely exposed as a baby sitter of people who are big enough and angry enough and to always catch you off guard because they're not kids. They're fourteen, fifteen, sixteen and they're smart enough to screw you up." I said, "Exactly." (PAUSE) Anyway, so that was that. I thought, "Well, I guess I should actually look about how to apply." So I go to the website and I'm like, "This is painless." I said, "I don't know why I didn't do this before. This is easy." Right? I mean... [00:16:05]

THERAPIST: And you do it, is it for the whole city?

CLIENT: The whole city. Right. So you go and you create a user name, you create a password, you upload a resume, you click on jobs, you fill out your little profile. It's really not difficult. So anyway, this is sort of this activating thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's the silver lining in all of this.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Well, actually, more than the silver lining. It's a huge thing. (inaudible at 00:16:25) So all of the sudden, the reality of possibly having a job put the fear of God in me and it made me realize that I need to figure out an alternative. (LAUGHTER) Right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's what it made me realize. Like I've got to figure out what the hell I want to do because if I get offered this job, morally I feel like I have to take it. Morally, because I feel like Barbara (ph) does this very difficult job and doesn't like it. And it's like who am I to reject a job when I absolutely need a job even though I know... I mean, it's not the end of the world either way. Right? It's not... You know, I know that I can tell myself (inaudible at 00:17:05) I'm thinking about this much more than the kids are going to think about it. [00:17:07]

I'm thinking about it more than the superintendent's going to think about it or the headmaster is thinking about this. I'm thinking about this a lot more because I know what it's like to be in a classroom and I know how stressful it is and I know how infuriating and exhausting and uncertain it is. Right? There's no control, it feels. There's no control and yet I am the symbol of (inaudible at 00:17:37) Right? There's no one holding your hand. There's not like anybody helping you teach. You're it. You show up on day one and you have to know everything. New school, new everything. There's a whole new system because the school's on, like, you know... It's under scrutiny. There's a whole new way of doing things. So you have to like have... Your lesson plan has got to be down to the minute so that when kids need to come back, they know exactly where you are. That's not how I operate. [00:18:09]

I... (PAUSE) There's a lot of administrative stuff that I don't like that is going to be expected. I'm thinking if I was...

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Like normally, you walk into a classroom, you have a general idea of (inaudible at 00:18:25) and you teach.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: There's a little more to it than that. But you have a mental plan and you have things that you create. But here you have things that every day, there's something and it's sort of like this, you know, over fifty minutes, sort of every ten minutes what you're going to be hitting. I have no clue. Who knows? I mean, that's hard enough to do with a completely well behaved lecture hall where no one raises their hands, let alone a whack a mole (ph) situation where you've got behaviors popping up left and right...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:19:01]

CLIENT: ...where you're also trying to, you know, explain (inaudible at 00:19:05) to people who don't speak English. (PAUSE) Anyway, so I went on, I filled out the thing, I sent her my... I have like actually generate references. So I found my old references and modified them and made them... I sent them. I e-mailed them to her. And then I went on BPS (ph) and I'm looking around and I'm thinking, "Physics teacher?" I'm thinking, "Yeah. Not at Red Bank." (LAUGHTER) I don't want to get anything at Red Bank. And then I thought...

THERAPIST: Why? The physics position was also at Red Bank?

CLIENT: No. It wasn't. But I saw physics and I thought, if it's just another high school. It's in WPS. The only school in WPS that we have students who are actually capable of learning...

THERAPIST: Greek.

CLIENT: ...is Greek.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:20:05]

CLIENT: And that's on the other end of the extreme because they're all... You know, it's essentially this fancy private school. It's free.

THERAPIST: What do you think... Do you think you would like that?

CLIENT: Here's the thing. Right? That's also irritating. I feel like (inaudible at 00:20:21)

THERAPIST: Well, no. What...

CLIENT: You know, kids that are not motivated and are angry, one on one, you can figure out. When you have a whole group of them, you can't... You have to somehow manage all behavior so that everyone is capable of working. Right? So you can't... You have to be instantly quick and right in order to settle down group dynamics and it is... (PAUSE) It feels impossible because you're not going to have kids on any given day who are... (PAUSE) They just put their head down. [00:21:03]

Maybe for a good reason. They're homeless. They haven't eaten. They're tired. Maybe they... It's their fifth class. They can't read. They're tired from not being able to read and being yelled at and they're just shutting down. So kids put their head down for good reasons often.

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: Right? And yet, the fact is, you can't have a kid put their head down. Right? Administrator walks in, you can't be teaching at Red Bank with kids having their heads down.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Right? So you're letting that kid take a nap?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, you have to bear so much. It really is something.

CLIENT: So you've got to play this game. It's like... So, yeah, you've got to... Somehow while you're teaching biology, you have to somehow say, "I know you're really tired. If you could just look at the board." But that might be inflammatory, in which case, all of the sudden, it's this big thing and meanwhile you've got to be teaching. Right? [00:22:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So what do I want? Right? Because it's not teaching biology at Red Bank.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Although, and I... She said she would contact me on Friday. So cell phone in the pocket on vibrate and I'm feeling like... Part of me feels like I don't want to be offered the job because then I don't have the... I don't have the moral (inaudible at 00:22:29) because I am going to feel morally for Barbara, like to turn down a full time fully benefit job... But the part of me feels like if I'm not offered the job and the interview went really well, then what's that say about me. So it's two sides to this.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You want to...

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:22:55) or decide, "Well, I need a job. I don't like it. I know what it's like. It stresses me out. I'm going to want to not do it. I'm going to have to prepare. All of the sudden, the month of August is going to be feeling like, 'Oh shit.'" [00:23:19]

THERAPIST: Knowing what you're kind of going into battle...

CLIENT: Knowing... It is. It's a battle.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So anyway, it's Friday. Right? And... (PAUSE) Anyway, so there's that. So then... I go onto WPS, right, looking at these various jobs. And there's jobs that are interesting but I'm not qualified for and I know I'm not qualified for and I don't feel too badly for it. Like Waltham Greek needs a head of the math department and I know how bad one particular math teacher is because I've been dealing with this math teacher for half of the year because (inaudible at 00:24:01) has her and she's just arbitrarily...

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. [00:24:03]

CLIENT: Right? So I know that Greek needs some revamping. In fact, Ashley (ph), (inaudible) mom, she sent me the job.

THERAPIST: Is that right?

CLIENT: She found out about the job. She sent it and there's this whole Greek parents group and they're like, "We've got to solve this problem because math sucks at Greek. We have to find somebody." So I was given... Ashley e-mailed me (inaudible at 00:24:25) But I didn't look at it. I just saw it and thought, "Oh, I'm not qualified."

THERAPIST: Just not qualified.

CLIENT: I looked at it and thought, "That's interesting. I'm flattered that they think I can do it..."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "...because I can't even pass the math intel (ph)." I can't even teach math.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, anyway, so then I am looking through the various jobs and then...

THERAPIST: Would you want to?

CLIENT: Well, if I were... Yes, absolutely. The problem is I'm... (PAUSE) I'm not quite math (ph) enough yet. Right? [00:25:05]

I mean, to be, you know in charge of math at a place like that, you would have to have taught math for a while, which I have not. And that means something. Not just in terms of credentials and experience but, in real terms, I mean, it's one thing to study math and think about math. But it's another thing to really know it well enough to teach it. So I presume that if you're going to be head there, you should have taught all different types of math, including AP Calculus. Right? You have to really know and have taught math to be in charge of all people who are teaching math. And yet, I feel like I could be a real sort of (LAUGHTER) advisor in some way. Right? I feel like I could be some sort of math consultant like... It's like (inaudible at 00:25:55)

THERAPIST: Yes. [00:25:57]

CLIENT: Right? So there's not that particular job. Anyway, so I'm looking around and jobs and so the (inaudible at 00:26:03) So for people who have aged out of regular high school but still want to finish their diploma, they can go at night to this (inaudible) at Shrewsbury. That's where the academy...(inaudible at 00:26:27) It's all connected. And so it's a stipend position. You teach Tuesday and Thursday nights, math. It looks like part time teaching math, get my feet wet teaching math, love it. Right?

THERAPIST: Cool.

CLIENT: I could still go to school. I could teach so I actually learn math a bit better. I could be making money that's stable. I could then segue that into something else full time until I actually finish this master's math.

THERAPIST: And you've got more or less people that are wanting to be there, right? [00:26:59]

CLIENT: No one's twisting their arm. They don't have to go to school.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Exactly. But so I... You know, there's five sort of mathy positions, some part time, some full time. So I click click click click click, you know, and I submit, submit, submit. And, of course, here's a thing, "Do you have the license?" Well, I don't have a license in math. I just have the license in biology. So, of course, you know, there's a feeling of, "Maybe I don't have..." They're not even going to look at me because I'm not licensed in mathematics. (PAUSE) Which I don't feel too badly about. But I feel like, you know, it would be better if I were. That would be handy because I have (inaudible at 00:27:41) study for this math test.

THERAPIST: How is that... What's the test like?

CLIENT: Well...

THERAPIST: How much preparation do you need?

CLIENT: I feel like, yeah, I really need to devote a couple months because I feel like I've got lots of gaps in my math knowledge. Right? [00:28:07]

And also you've got to be fast. Right? So... (PAUSE) I don't know. Like it's not the GRE. The GRE seems like... I don't know. Somehow that seems completely straight forward and fun. Right? It didn't seem hard. This is like... And the biology intel, right, that was like (inaudible at 00:28:37)

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: So fine. But I don't think of myself as being someone who really is naturally good at math.

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: I think it's because I've gone to later on where it just hasn't... I don't have that (inaudible) And also, it's like I look at a problem and I can sort of sort it out. But it's always like me looking... I don't like... [00:29:11]

Maybe it seems I should not teach the GRE mathematics (ph) which I don't want to. You know, you think about high school algebra class and you think of... Like all the various rules for, you know, second degree and third degree polynomial and how you do synthetic division and all these things you learn in algebra which I... In the context of calculus or some other class, I sort of think, "Oh," sort of like, "Oh, I wish I knew that sort of algebra." And then I sort of sort it out. Like I play around and I do, do, do, do, do and eventually, I do it. [00:30:01]

It's not like I look at it... It's not like I'm an algebra whiz. I do it. You know, you have to. Right? There's an adage saying, "You need people to take calculus so they'll actually learn algebra." Which is true. You spend so much time doing the algebra with calculus. But anyway, I find no joy in like the very quick high school version of algebra where you sort of look and you think, "Oh, it's a third degree polynomial. Woo hoo!" I don't think that way and I don't care it's a third degree. I just look at it and think, "Well, alright. This is what you've got to do and blah, blah, blah," for some other purpose which is to actually solve some other problem.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Not to do some third degree for its own sake. Anyway, bottom line is to take the math test to become a math teacher means to do a lot of problems very quickly that are the sort of problems a way that you can actually be teaching. [00:31:11]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, so it's not like you're doing abstract algebra or teaching philosophy of mathematics and writing essays and thinking about math. No. It's just...

THERAPIST: Computation.

CLIENT: It's just computation, computation, computation, computation, computation. And that's not what I'm good at. Although, GRE that's fine. Right? GRE, it's not that hard. But that's not what this is. Right? This is actually for math teachers. So I need to somehow get into this sort of, you know, MCAT (ph) mode. I'm like, "This is a lot of information. I've got to be fast, fast, fast, fast, fast." And I really just go nuts. Like being competitive and being fast.

THERAPIST: Is it that kind of dull or is it that it raises some anxiety about what that means to be fast/good at it or not? [00:32:05]

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, there is the anxiety of... There is the anxiety of... (PAUSE) ...feeling like something that I know should be relatively simple because it's a high school algebra thing. I don't find to be simple at all. And yet I know that I know much more than that and I know if I look at it long enough, I'll figure it out. It's just that I don't look at math like (inaudible at 00:32:43) Right? And...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So there's certain language. Right? You know, it's like an equation. When I see one, I know what to do with it. But the language of it... Right? [00:33:05]

So I have to tell myself, "Okay. It's called quadratic. In Latin quadra means square. So there's a square and it's referring to area." And I have to sort of tell myself the story because just the word itself has been ingrained for so many years. "Quadratic equation is like (inaudible) Right? That's the feeling of quadratic even though I know... But it brings me no joy. Quadratic is just like... It really. (LAUGHTER) It's the first year of high school, right? Or eighth grade. And just the word of it bores me and makes me feeling like, "Who likes that?" Why would anybody want to do that?

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah.

CLIENT: And actually, if it wasn't called that, if it wasn't called quadratic, I would look at it and think, "Huh."

THERAPIST: That's interesting. [00:33:57]

CLIENT: If there was a story along with it, then like (inaudible at 00:34:01) and play with it and draw a little picture and draw a little square.

THERAPIST: It's the same thing you described... I mean, it goes all the way back to that story of learning the days of the week (LAUGHTER) like the arbitrariness of it and you playing around with it in some way. "Why does it need to go in this order?" It's so strikingly similar and it also just... There's something so much in like the meaning of, "You're supposed to get it this way." The anxiety that was raised at that time and still today about like quadratic, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, it's so... And this feeling you had back then of, "Why don't I get it this way? Why doesn't my brain kind of go, 'Okay. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and that will work and you don't think about it.'" Something to that. And it's powerful. It just really does. It kind of makes you question your... Even back then, describing this kind of feeling. "How is my mind working? Is my mind working?" [00:35:09]

CLIENT: Well... So yesterday I cleaned out the garage and did this under a hornet's nest which I am waiting to get rid of. So there are hornets zipping around and I am cleaning the garage and it's hot and I've got my utility knife and I'm slashing pieces of carpet and I'm rolling up (inaudible at 00:35:55) I have leather gloves and I have all these tack (ph) strips. Did I tell you the whole story with the carpet?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So there are tack strips, tack strips, tack strips. It's breaking into pieces and getting all these nails and there's tons and tons and tons of this stuff. There's bags that I'm putting these in and I'm waiting for the trash man to come. Bags, bags, bags around the house and I'm wondering whether the trash men are going to take it. [00:35:59]

And all the while I'm thinking, "This is so much more preferable, I'm sweating, wearing leather gloves, dealing with lots of nails, having hornets buzzing around me than being in a classroom." I'm thinking, "This is fun." There is no joy being in the classroom with people who don't want to learn.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And I'm thinking, "If I get stung by a hornet, that's going to hurt. But it will pass." In biology, well, the next day, you go back and do it again.

THERAPIST: Go back again.

CLIENT: And you know you're going to get stung, you know you're going to get stung, you know you're going to get stung.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: No matter when.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: It's sting of the heart, a sting of the brain, not a sting of the arm.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I'm doing that and then later on, I go outside. I want to paint. But it's too hot to paint because the paint dries too quickly. So I'm waiting for it to cool down. So the next week I'll paint. [00:37:01]

And later on in the day, I'm ruminating and I talk to Ethan about this stuff and he appreciates this and he tells me, "You know, I've Never told anybody this." He goes, "My last year at Francesca (ph)..." He said, "Every morning, I would cry for ten minutes."

THERAPIST: Oh gosh.

CLIENT: "And then I would go." He said, "You can't go back to teaching."

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah. I didn't know that but I thought... I mean, in retrospect, I get it. I didn't cry. There was this feeling of dread, of just dread.

THERAPIST: That's so sad.

CLIENT: And he was talking to somebody else who was a geologist. He's a geologist and she's a geologist. She said, "Yeah, my first year teaching, every day on the way home, I'd cry." What is it about this? You're staring out adolescents who are a reminder... Like they are this... What's implied is you're teaching young minds and somehow they are the future and you look at them and what's implied and what's sort of under the radar is that these angry people are going to outlive you. [00:38:17]

You're expending your own life energy for no clear gain because they're not caring and, in fact, they're making your own present life more difficult. So it's like... It's not like the sacrifice of a parent for a child. No. It's thirty strangers and their own parents don't care. No one cares. Right? So there's that.

(CROSSTALK)

CLIENT: You can't heal it.

THERAPIST: You can't heal it. And they can't take what you have to offer those kids that you're talking about. Because it's so clear. You know, you teach these CPR training classes and you feel rejuvenated. You feel alive. You feel like you've done something.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:39:11]

THERAPIST: And it's such pain to go into that classroom, not only I think to see those kids, you know, not with and bear the brunt of all that trauma and anger and like hate (LAUGHTER) that they feel towards the world and you're the representative of (inaudible at 00:39:29)

CLIENT: Yeah. That's right. The white guy. Yes.

THERAPIST: But something painful about not being able to do what you love, you know, teach... I mean...

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: So this issue of math... First of all, I was getting to like... I (inaudible at 00:39:55)

(PAUSE) [00:40:00]

CLIENT: So surrounded by hornets, sweating, and feeling happy with it all, feeling like, "I'm cleaning the garage. I love this. It's great." And I'm waiting for the trash men. I'm wondering when they're going to take all this stuff and eventually show and I help them load up the trash truck and I offer them drinks because it's hot and they say, "Next time. We're in a hurry. But next time. Thank you." They left and I'm feeling like, "I'm being a good guy. People appreciate my help. I clean my garage. I didn't get stung. God's smiling on me."

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: And then later in the day, Evelyn (ph)... So actually Evelyn has a new association in my mind. So she's sixty and she's a lesbian so she goes to (inaudible) we share the same backyard. Well, they have their backyard. We have ours. But they have these flowers and little chairs and so forth. And they're always out there and they have cocktails on Friday evenings. And so we'll go out around five and they'll have beer and wine and chips. So it's nice. It's this nice thing. I really like them a lot. [00:41:03]

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:41:07)

CLIENT: So Marlene (ph) is a... There's the same age. Marlene is this really fit, tan, tiny, really energetic, feisty woman from South Beach (ph) who has been a mail delivery person. I can't say mail man because she's not a man.

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: I can't say mail man because she's not a man.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: So mail delivery something. Whatever she is. A mail woman.

THERAPIST: Mail person?

CLIENT: A mail woman (inaudible at 00:41:29)

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: She does that. Right? She has her route and she hikes. Right? She hikes. So she's in really good shape. So she walks all day for her job and then on the weekends she like goes and climbs mountains. That's what she does. Evelyn is taller. She bikes to work. She's a biologist. So she does research on epithelial (ph) cells. [00:42:01]

She was out yesterday around 5:00 reading a book. So I was outside and I saw her and I spoke. I went over and we sat and talked and I was sort of conveying my turmoil to her also realizing to her that I can't fully disclose not wanting the job because I can't let that get back to Barbara. If I get offered this job, Barbara can't know that I got offered the job because I cannot reject the job. (PAUSE) Anyway, so I say, you know, I said, "You being in a lab it's monastic. Right? You have... You work with colleagues and that's an essential part. But you have sustained periods of time, an hour, two hours, maybe more a day and then this adds up over the course of a week or a month where you can think deeply about something and there's a long term problem that you're considering." [00:43:07]

And I said, "To teach biology in high school is exactly the opposite." And I said, "You know, what you do..." I said, "Existentially, epistemologically, maybe even metaphysically what you do sits in some doubt. Right? You don't know what you don't know. You're using a body of knowledge that you think you know, that people generally agree upon but aren't completely certain about and you're trying to sort things out. Whereas, in a biology book, a fourteen year old looks at it or a college student looks at it because it's a survey course and the person can go throughout college and have this experience and will after, the feeling of, 'This is written by experts. I am not an expert. I will never be an expert. This is the complete body of knowledge. I will never know this and so there are experts. There are people who are better and different and this is impossible and so... And knowledge is pretty complete and these are the people who write these books.'" [00:44:19]

And there's no mention of the notion of doubt or uncertainty or the massive amount of stuff we don't know, the same with mathematics. Right? So quadratic. Well, it's not an expert thing with quadratic. That's historical. Right? But there's a sense of a kid...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yes.

CLIENT: ...hears that and they think, "I don't know why it's called a quadratic. But somehow the teacher thinks it's important and I have to do twenty of these problems and I have to be fast at it and this is really difficult and so the word scares me. In fact, I have no idea what it means and no one's ever taught me what it means. And yet somebody knows. It must mean something. It must have... But I have no idea." And it's full of language like that. [00:44:59]

And in all of science and mathematics that the words aren't explained. And so it is by definition foreign inaccessible.

THERAPIST: Yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No. I remember this... I was in (inaudible at 00:45:17) this guy taught some, I think it was a neuroscience class, a neuroanatomy class or something like that and the first thing he did... You know, people had been in the field for years or whatever. He was like, "I'm going to... Every name in the brain, I'm going to tell you what it means, why they got the word." You know? Like amygdala is chestnut or something like that.

CLIENT: Interesting.

THERAPIST: You know, because it's shaped like a chestnut. You know, like... He would kind of go through all of these things to demystify all of the language. And...

CLIENT: Fantastic. [00:45:55]

THERAPIST: It was really... Yeah. It was really helpful. It made you feel...

CLIENT: Excellent.

THERAPIST: ...yeah, it's not this something like this book of knowledge that gets (LAUGHTER) you know, somehow bestowed upon you. No. It's got meaning. There's reasons why. I was thinking about the days of the week, the reasons why there are days of the week. Although...

CLIENT: They don't tell you...

THERAPIST: They don't tell it to a five year old. Well, listen, I better stop though. Hey, but this time is workable for...

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:46:31)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So before I leave, I don't know whether (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Nothing?

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't know what to do.

THERAPIST: (SIGH) Hey. Give me a call if you want to talk about it before (inaudible at 00:46:49)

CLIENT: Thank you. I'm reaching for my (inaudible)

(PAUSE) [00:47:00]

CLIENT: I owe you more than this. I feel like I'm always in a constant state of owing but it brings down the whatever. So I set that on your couch.

THERAPIST: Okay. Thank you. (PAUSE) I'm sorry. Hold on one second.

CLIENT: That's okay.

THERAPIST: Hey. Be there in just a minute. Yeah, the other thing I was thinking about just was the fact like... I don't know if you feel like this woman would be of any help in this manner, but like it would be helpful as an advisor in this. But what it you told her exactly what you were talking to me about, your reservation, what you kind of looking for and, "Hey, this is why I haven't worked in a while and I would like to teach. I don't like that part of it." [00:48:03]

I don't know if she would be a good advisor or not but if you decide not to take it, what do you risk by talking to her about your dilemma and seeing if she has any advice. I don't know. I don't know if she's the kind of person who would be helpful in that regard but she's...

CLIENT: I think she could be just as a person but also she's, I mean, extraordinarily well placed. (LAUGHTER) She would know. Right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: She's the boss of everything.

THERAPIST: I don't know. Yeah. That's what I was thinking. She seems like a helpful person.

CLIENT: She's...

THERAPIST: It's a real dilemma. What do you... I mean, that's real. It's not like you... I mean, I guess you could even say, "I could do this for a year if I have to..." Not, I mean... "I can do this. I've done it before. But I really want to do something that feels better for me long term." You know, something like that. I don't know. That's... (PAUSE) Because it would be helpful in some ways. [00:49:05]

And it's not something to be ashamed of either. (LAUGHTER) I mean, it's not for you, that particular kind of classroom, kind of teaching. I don't think it is for anybody though it seemed like.

CLIENT: Yeah. It feels like there's none. I mean (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm not sure. But I think my mom is right. There are some jobs it's just a matter of how much you can tolerate.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And that's one of them. Anyway, well, thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:49:55)

THERAPIST: Just text me if you want to talk. Okay.

(PAUSE) [00:50:00]

END TRANSCRIPT