TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Did you get my e-mail?

THERAPIST: I did, yeah, I'm sorry if I-

CLIENT: Was I late?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you were. Usually I just do them every month.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So I wasn't thinking that you had already paid for the ones for July.

CLIENT: Right. Because does that make sense, [unclear]. Let me give this to now then so that we're all up to date.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then I'll just give you each week a check.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because I might forget if I don't do it [unclear].

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It's easier for me to just do it. So that's for the remaining. So that's including today.

THERAPIST: That's through today. Yeah, okay, great.

CLIENT: Yeah. So if you find anything off just let me know.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So my brother never e-mailed me back. I e-mailed him. I don't know if I had mentioned that. I don't know if I e-mailed him already before I was here last week.

THERAPIST: I think so. [1:00]

CLIENT: All right, who knows. I mean, it was kind of hard, but at the same time it was basically like, you know, "I wanted this to be helpful for you. If it's not going to be helpful for you then I do think it's better for you to be in a less expensive place elsewhere," blah blah blah. And, you know, like said like, "I love you, and I do support you if you want to open this business, I just don't think it's good to not-you know, I wanted to show me a least after-you know, before the trip when your room was a mess." You know, all this stuff. "And you didn't show me," and da da da. "So I think I have to find a roommate," blah blah blah, "please get back to me."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I told him, I'm like, "I'm writing an e-mail because I think that you have-it's hard to talk on the phone because you really are very sensitive to-you know, you're very defensive," and he thinks everybody is just yelling at him, and I just thought I'd be able to get my words out better. So he didn't write back. I think I called him either the next day or later that afternoon, and he basically answered and said, "I got your e-mail and I'm going to respond, but I just I can't right now." And I was like, "Okay." And then he never responded. And I saw him at dinner, we went to dinner with my dad. Jesse just got back from camp so we wanted to go to dinner, and then tell us about his smart kids camp. It's like a camp at Columbia, like whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [2:10]

CLIENT: And they like stay in air conditioned dorms, and like he did engineering classes. But he likes it. It's just so weird to me. Like, and this has always been like his kind of camps. And it's just so like-but he likes it. He's like one of these gifted kids, and I like wonder what's going to become of him in high school. Like is he ever gonna be cool, or is he always going to kind of be awkward and like teetering on Asperger's?

THERAPIST: Oh, he's like that now.

CLIENT: I don't think he's like really-but like all of Tracy's family are kind of like that a little bit. To a certain extent Tracy is. I mean, she's like OCD at best, so like she has her own combination, doesn't need Asperger's. But he's just-yeah, he's awkward I think. Or he's like a dork maybe. Maybe that's what it is. Like he's like dorky, and me and Michael were kind of always like cool.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [3:00]

CLIENT: But I think that goes hand in hand with the fact that me and Michael were like trouble makers, and like didn't do our homework, and Jesse's like, "More homework please." Like, oh, do this extra homework that's like trigonometry. He was like, "Some of the trigonometry I didn't understand," talking about the engineering course. I'm like, "You'll be over it if you want to in a day." He's like, "No, I don't think so." And I'm like, "If you set your mind to anything. Like you were doing multiplication when you were two," like let's get real. Anyway, that was not relative to what I'm trying to tell you.

So we like fought through dinner, and Michael started like freaking about what to decide on his dinner. And I said-I looked at him, I said, "Michael, this is the smallest decision you're going to have to make today and actually probably like for the next three months, so just fucking make it." Then he orders a salad. And then he's like, "Oh, I should have gotten soup. Should I also get a soup? I don't know what to get." I was like, "Don't get soup and salad, choose one and move on. Everybody will share, we're all-" So whatever. I drove him back to my mom's house. He did not say a word to me about anything. And there were a couple times I was like [unclear 4:15]. And then I was like, no, you know, [unclear]. Like really? Like I have to now [unclear] the conversation that's already like shameful and awkward and like uncomfortable and hurtful and whatever?

So we get back to my moms and he like almost immediate-well, he came and hung out in the living room. My mom pressed pause, she had just come back from a wedding. Which it was funny, I guess I hadn't received one of her texts. But it was like, "Well, here I am on my way back from West Bumfuck. Slightly further and more curvy roads than East Bumfuck that we were in earlier," you know, for the other wedding. Because she went to this wedding. And actually it was funny because it was in the Appalachians. And the hotel we stayed at for the wedding in Florida was where "Dirty Dancing" was filmed, and "Dirty Dancing" is set in the Appalachians. [5:00]

THERAPIST: In the Appalachians.

CLIENT: Isn't that funny? So anyway, and she said it was even worse. Like curvy roads, dark, awful. And I was like, "Oh, I wish I could have come with you." I mean, I wasn't invited to the wedding so I guess we just didn't really like consider it. And she knew I wouldn't want to leave and whatever. But then I was like, "Oh my." And she's, "No, it was fine." But it was like hike a mountain, and the ceremony was like in the middle of the woods. And then like a food truck. Like you had to wait in line for a Chinese food truck, like starving. This was the wedding. She's like, "What is with these fucking weddings?" And I was like I feel like if I ever get-you know, when I get married eventually, like we need to do like a really good Boston wedding to like show people how it's done. [laughs] Like, "This is always convenient for people everywhere in Massachusetts." Like, "This is how you serve a meal."

Anyway, so we're like chatting. And my brother's sitting in the living room like playing Bejeweled on his phone or something while [he chats aloud? 5:51]. Then I told him to go out to the car and get the leftovers because mommy was hungry and I chose a good dinner. So he got the leftovers, then went in his room and proceeded to smoke pot and whatever. And I was like-and she was like, "How were him and dad at dinner?" And I was like, "I don't know. Why?" And she was like, "Because they got into it big time today." So I was like, yeah. And I was like, "Oh no, I had no-"

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like yeah.

THERAPIST: She's like, "This fucking family, that's what everybody does, you just push it under the rug and move on and act like nothing happened and then nothing gets fucking solved." And I was like, "Well, yeah, that's what Michael's doing to me right now." And then I told her, you know, I can't ask him for a response. Like I'm asking him for a response by writing originally. And she's like, "I agree. And I tried to talk to him and he said, 'I don't know what's wrong with me, I'm catatonic.'" I'm like, "I'm not sure you know what that word means, Michael. Like you're not a schizophrenic. That word is-am I right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like it's not-you can't just say, "Oh, I'm catatonic." Okay, then go check yourself in. And my mom is out of luck. And I think she's at the point where yes, she got all tough and all, "Well, he's out September 1st," and blah blah blah, but that is not going to happen. I can see already, I can tell already from just the way that she's talking to me. I mean, she doesn't have the wherewithal to do it, and my father's not going to facilitate it. And so she's now just kind of more concentrated on what she could do to help me if anything. So like her whole tune changed. She might have felt some sense of appreciation because apparently this wedding was full of dysfunctional children. I mean, like just horrible tattoos, and the other daughter creating a controversy with the black boyfriend, because the Jewish grandmother, even though they're half Chinese anyway, the kids, so it's like she got over that. The person who was getting married marrying a woman when she's never been a lesbian before and they've only been together like a year or two. Like having a million tattoos. So there was one set of siblings that one of them was the boy and one of them was the girl, but they're both in tuxes and they couldn't tell.

THERAPIST: I see. [8:00]

CLIENT: So I think maybe she was feeling some sort of appreciation for the normalcy of her children despite their issues. And again, she had mentioned this to me before, but she really just felt like Mallory, her friend-who's her very good friend, you know, the girl I stayed with when we were younger, we lost touch-but she said Mallory was visibly like uncomfortable a lot of the day and she felt like she was really like forcing it, like faking it a little bit. And I think my mom also is feeling like relief at the prospect that perhaps that's not gonna have to be the case anyway because she felt like that really wasn't the case if I had married Franklin. Then she would have been in that scenario of kind of faking it and dealing with the weird family. And she said-you know, anyway. So now she's just kind of like, "What can I do to help you?" And I basically was like, "Well, really the only thing that you can help with is like helping me go to the container store and like Target and get the last minute things I need after I move in, and help me with decoration ideas and where the pictures should go and how to hang them." You know, stuff that she's really good at that I could use help with.

So I put up the ad on Craigslist and I've gotten a few responses. Some of them I've just clicked directly away from, like the one-liners. Like, "Still have room to rent? Interested, e-mail me." Like wrote about myself in the thing, I'm clearly not like just room for rent, it's like looking for a roommate. So I just deleted those and didn't respond. And then a couple of them I responded to, one of which hasn't replied back yet, two of which are hesitant to really even meet and start talking or get anything going because I don't have pictures of the room. Which I should, but Michael when we visited he was like, "What do you need to take pictures in the bedroom for? You can eyeball it." I don't know what the fuck I listened to him for. And so I'm going to see if I can go back this weekend. But I'm in an awkward situation, because I can't bring a million people to the apartment, the tenants are still in there. I need to get pictures, but even some people are still not going to want to do it with just a picture. [10:00]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Because who knows, and whatever. And so I have concern over that. Now, Stephanie-it's just so much fucking work that I have to do this, so much that I have to put in. So then Stephanie had the thought that since Michael fucked me over I should just tell the landlord-like I should do this anyway, that she said as soon as I'm done with her. Like I was talking to her on the [ringer?], she's like, "When you're going to have your appointment just call the day and just explain to him the situation. Your brother lost his job, you don't feel comfortable blah blah blah blah. You'd like to find a roommate that you find suitable and how does he feel about that?" So to make him feel like heSo she's been just like I tell the landlord anyway. Fine, I can do that.

But my concern is that if I am not able to find a roommate by August-okay, no, here were her two suggestions. That in order to not have to rush it and not have to have the whole apartment to show, and just have pictures, and possibly end up with a sketchball that's okay with moving into a place without having seen it in person, that I should just move in by myself on the 1st, Michael pays-the deposit was first and security, so that's already taken care of, and he takes that hit because he sucks. Or my father supplements it if he wants to, whatever. I get settled in and start looking for a roommate for October 1st. I mean, because I did express-like when she thought of that idea I was like, "Oh god, how nice would it be to be able to get settled by myself, make the apartment how I want it, then bring somebody in. But then I have concern over being even less good people available for October 1st because leases typically end August 31st. So then there's that thought. I mean, potentially I could-I don't know. I don't know what the roommate search would look like in September as opposed to August. Who knows if there are still people that are just like subletting that couldn't find a lease.

THERAPIST: Right. [12:15]

CLIENT: So I am going to tell the landlord just so that it's all out in the open and he could decide what he wants to do essentially. I mean, which-Stephanie's like, if he tries to do something sketchy like don't worry, we'll get involved like legally. But hopefully he'll just trust that this is okay and whatever. Like, you know, then it's up to me to decide if I want to try to look for somebody for August or if I want to wait for September but risk less inventory of people I guess.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And like how to balance, like well, what's it worth to me, like in terms of having the month living alone? Like how much is that worth? Is that worth maybe having a little bit more difficult time finding a roommate? I mean, I could be totally off base. There could be equal amounts of people looking for rooms on any given month. I have no idea.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But that's something that I have to think about. [pause] I mean, there's also the fear that a month by myself I'm going to be like, "Fuck, this is lovely, how can I make this work?" You know. Which I cannot, unless my father's going to pay the other half of the rent, which is absurd and he would never go for. [14:00]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: [pause] But there is something to be said about getting the cats oriented to the space without somebody moving there and without other strong stuff, and making sure that they can put their smell on all of my stuff in the new apartment. You know, building-you know, making sure-because I'm also looking up like tips on relocating your cats to a significantly smaller space, living area, because this is significantly smaller by a long shot in terms of like places that they can hang out, and lay in the sun or run. Like the hallway is going to be a big loss for them. This has a little hallway, but they like running up and down it. They chase each other up and down it and it's something they both-you know, it's always been there. So anyway, so that's the other thing I'm thinking about and the fucking getting them oriented, and where I'm going to put the litter box. And quite frankly I don't want input from anybody else about where to put stuff, and I don't want somebody that wants to bring their like glass TV entertainment center and like put it in the living room. And like maybe that's-I don't know, I have no idea. Because then also moving in and then finding a roommate is just extending this period of me feeling like I'm constantly like on and like-

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm at a loss. I'm really angry at my brother, I'm angry at my parents for making me think this would work, I'm angry at myself for thinking that it would work.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [16:00]

CLIENT: I'm angry at him for saying yes even without really thinking about it and without really considering it and without anybody really looking at his finances. And that he's not looking for work, that he's catatonic. I mean, I know he didn't create his depression. I mean, I think he worsens it by smoking so much pot and like bathing in his depression, but I know he didn't create it. But a lot of these other problems he creates for himself just by giving into the stuff that he can't really control without medication and without real concerted effort. [pause]

Or maybe I just tell my parents, "Well, since you guys convinced me that this was okay then you're going to cover the bills while I take my time finding the right roommate." Similar to what I almost did with Franklin actually. I almost did that with him, like cover theBut then I was like so close to being ready to just be done with him that I was like, "Hm, no, no, no." And I'm glad I didn't. But in this case I can't get away from them anyway so-you know, because that's another option. And just guaranteeing my landlord that, you know-at the very least he has two month's rent right now. So if he really feels uncomfortable in October if I still don't have anybody he could always kick me out. I mean, I don't know if this option is like reasonable, I'd have to ask my family. But... [pause] [17:45]

I mean, but this is what I do with everything though, whether it's like buying-you know, like when I lived in the car, or like buying something at a store. Like I'm always thinking like, if I decide now, what if there's something better later? Or if a don't decide now, what if this was the best and then all the rest are worse? And I have a really hard time-it's like a buyer's remorse kind of thing. Like I literally always have buyer's remorse, almost always, like to a certain extent. It doesn't always make me like return things. Sometimes it does. But like I almost always like doubt my purchases like for at least a couple days after. Like, "Ugh, did I really need this? Does it sit the right way it's supposed to?" Like, "Am I really gonna use it?" Like whatever.

THERAPIST: Well, I guess [I/you? 18:37] do have the sense that all the options seem kind of impossible.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Well, I don't mean-I'm not making a comment about reality.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Which I'm not making any claims to that. More how it seems to me perhaps to feel to you like kind of impossible to deal with it right now because you can't show them the apartment, but also it's kind of impossible to wait because then what if you don't get somebody, you'll be fucked financially. Unless somebody else picks up the slack, like your parents, which may or may not happen. And Michael's impossible because you can't reason with him, you can't talk to him, you can't depend on him in any way I guess. [pause] I guess what you're saying now about the [prior remorse? 20:07], I guess is [unclear] too, it's not like it was just okay to have got whatever you wanted. It was a bad idea, or it cost too much, or you didn't want it, or something else would have been better. [20:20]

CLIENT: Maybe they have it cheaper somewhere else and now it's too late. All of that, yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. [pause] Yeah, that's how I would say it, is like the things that-somehow it seems to happen a lot that the things that you have or want or get, like either they don't happen, or they do happen but don't work they way you-I don't know. There's something going on. I guess I feel like I'm not quite [unclear 21:13].

CLIENT: Like I perceive it to be that way, or that like seems like actually what happens?

THERAPIST: Well, I don't really know. [long pause, over one minute] Yeah, it is. So it feels like... [pause] [Is there somebody? 22:53] like undermining yourself, or maybe setting yourself up a bit, where you kinda can't let yourself-okay, yeah. Where I think you kinda can't let yourself feel at ease with what you get or do for yourself. And also it's very hard to feel at ease I think and not at fault when bad things just happen to you. So here's an example. I think you probably feel, as much as you're pissed at Michael and your parents-and clearly describing how you're pissed at Michael and your parents, not like that's a secret-I think you also feel kind of responsible for what happened with him with the apartment. Maybe I'm wrong. But like even though you know in your head in a way that like, you know, you didn't necessarily like make an irresponsible decision, or you couldn't have seen this coming, I think you probably feel like you should have seen it coming.

CLIENT: Mm hm, yeah. [24:10]

THERAPIST: And that really Michael was never gonna be able to change or get anything together or make this happen, you know. And you should have known how your parents were gonna be about it and they were gonna waffle and this and that. And if you've gotten fucked over it's at least significantly your fault. And-right, I guess that's the buyer's remorse thing maybe a little bit too. Like for some reason it's hard to just feel good about whatever it is that you got, or just enjoy it. You know, you describe to me this worry that accompanies it, or the sense that you were irresponsible and shouldn't have bought it, or it isn't quite what you wanted. It's got to be like sort of spoiled a little bit. Like it's hard to just tell yourself, "Have it," I think.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And then again even with the [unclear 25:17] how to handle the stuff with the apartment, I don't think either of those-maybe that's really more than it feels impossible. That it either feels [unclear]. Like I don't have the sense you feel at ease with either option.

CLIENT: Right. And Stephanie earlier said something that pissed me off, which was exactly what you're saying, like I feel guilty about it like internally, which I do. Actually Lucas said it to me also in a conversation I had with him last night. Last night I was saying to him how I felt upset at my brother, and that he's fucked me over. And Lucas was like-and Lucas can be really tactless and like idiotic and not think about things that he says to like his friends. Because he comfortable-like if we can't feel comfortable with each other. And was like, "I mean, you say your brother fucked you, but I mean, you created this by asking him to move in." And I got so upset and I started crying and was like, "That's really hurtful." I didn't. Like I do feel guiltAnd then he of course apologized, and then called me back like five hours later to apologize again, like felt really bad, and was like, "You're right, like you didn't-and like I'm sorry." [26:20]

And then but Stephanie said something similar today, where she was like, "Trina, you're kind of to blame for this, so like just-what the fuck is wrong with you? Like just you have to find a roommate, like figure it out, tell the landlord, da da da da da. Like you're partly to blame for this too so just fix it now." And then I told her felt me, and she said, "Well, it's my opinion." [pause] I mean, there's a certain amount of I think accuracy to the fact that-or I don't know. I mean, so I should feel bad for having faith in my brother? Wow, I shouldn't have put this pressure on him? Like what, you know? Is that really what that is coming from in terms of like Stephanie and all of them kind of saying like similar things? Like that if I know him that I should have justOr maybe it was, maybe it was just me being selfish, that I didn't want to live with a roommate and I couldn't afford to live alone, so like forced my brother to do it. But it didn't feel like that, because I asked him. You know, like I asked him, I didn't tell him.

THERAPIST: So I'm going to blame you a little bit for something but it's a different thing. And I'm sort of speculating here. I actually don't think you're necessarily responsible for what happened with Michael. I mean, when you started this your parents had made some noises about like backing him up, and he had a job that he had been at for like not a week or two but-

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I don't remember how long but-

CLIENT: Nine months, or more. [28:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah, for a while.

CLIENT: Longer than he's been any recent job really.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And I sort of recall like your parents being encouraging about the whole thing, and at least as I heard it your having the sense that they were gonna kind of have his back financially.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Or at least helping him budget himself, if not helping with money.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right.

CLIENT: For sure.

THERAPIST: And yeah, my suspicion is not that you saw coming what was going to happen to him. He really hadn't been like this as I've heard it in the last six or nine months, as kind of incapacitated as he seems now.

CLIENT: Mm hm. I mean, mainly because of work. I mean, he was definitely incapacitated when he was not working.

THERAPIST: Right. But the work seems to have pulled him together, and he seems to have followed through. Like it wasn't, you know... He didn't get fired because he was just blowing off work.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or staying home getting high. Like he had some kind of person [unclear 29:25]-

CLIENT: It was a thing with the company, right, yeah.

THERAPIST: -this other person was getting promoted, and whatever. I have no idea what that was about. But it was not just that-

CLIENT: He sucked or he was not doing his job, or he [unclear 29:35] after being told he couldn't be late like the taco truck driver.

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah, yeah. So the thing that I think that you might do is there's somehow your own self-doubting it comes across I think in a subtle way. And I think there's something about the way you talked about it to Stephanie and to Lucas that led them to say, "Well, it really was your fault and you should have seen it coming." In other words, there's some way that I think you sometimes feel that way or believe that probably contributed-because really they're only getting this from you. I mean, they're not talking to him, they're not talking to your parents, you know what I mean. Like I suspect in some kind of subtle way-

CLIENT: Yeah. [30:25]

THERAPIST: -it could be that you gave them the impression somehow that you were at fault. Which is, you know, something in some ways I think you thought you are and in other ways you don't. So I think that may be your part in it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, in the case of Stephanie she knows Michael. Like she knows how long he's had these-she's known when he's [unclear 30:46].

THERAPIST: Yup.

CLIENT: So I think hers is coming more from that. Like you should have known that this wasn't a good idea. I mean, my uncle is saying the same thing to me. You know, "If you had asked me for my opinion, which you didn't."

THERAPIST: Yeah, but... [pause] They weren't part of the conversations that happened or you had around this decision. And... it's not as though you don't know what his history has been.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And I remember when you talked to me about it you were-yeah, you hemmed and hawed.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Like you weren't sure this was a good idea. [32:00]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: You considered the possibility-I mean, in other words, the way they tell it it's as though you obviously should have seen this coming-

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: -and you really set yourself up. And that would suggest that you were kind of denying Michael's history and-

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And I mean, I've heard you talk about it and you weren't.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. And like I mean there's something to be said about, you know, like-there's something to be said about the fact that there could have been at any point where he's laying in bed all the time, where he's smoking cigarettes in the house, whatever, where people said, "You should have seen this coming."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And where I would have been more a little bit agreed. But there's no way I could have seen coming that the worst possible thing that could happen-him losing his job and then becoming incapacitated and not finding a new job-would happen.

THERAPIST: Right. Right.

CLIENT: I mean, I was ready for yelling at him in fights about cleaning, I was ready for smoking in the house, I was prepared for that.

THERAPIST: You were squabbling with him over him wanting to put his art-

CLIENT: Art table, right. I mean, there was stuff that I-yeah, that I could see coming. There's no way that I could see this coming, that he just completely went like 50 steps backwards.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And so yeah, I don't feel like I'm to blame for it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I do feel a little frustrated with myself for having put faith in him I guess, but to the same extent I don't think that that was the wrong call either. I mean, he's my older brother, I've never been ready to write him off. You know? So... I mean, Stephanie's right in terms of what she's saying about like you do need to just, despite all of your feelings and how upsetting it is, you do need to just get on with it kind of thing. It's just hard, because I'm finding myself getting really emotional every time I'm like talking about it, or like writing back to these people, or on the phone just being [on? 34:07]. You know, like let's meet, like apartment. And I'm having a hard time not getting emotional at those times and feeling like I'm like at my breaking point, you know. It's just like I don't want to [unclear 34:26] I'm making decisions or something. [34:30]

THERAPIST: I imagine you're also I think very upset about having a brother who's like marginally functional.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: So sometimes, less so other times.

CLIENT: I mean, I wish yeah, I could have a relationship with him, and that he could be my older brother.

THERAPIST: I have no doubt you do. I imagine it's also really disturbing that he really can't.

CLIENT: Yeah. Really. And like people-like my friends and I tell him. It's like, "I don't get it." Like why can't he get out of bed?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And like I don't know.

THERAPIST: Right. He's not schizophrenic as far as I've ever heard.

CLIENT: I don't think so. I think if anything bipolar, but-

THERAPIST: Right. And if was going to be like-in some ways he's not all that much more functional than some people who are-

CLIENT: What do you mean? You mean non-functionWait, what do you mean? Like his problems aren't such that he-

THERAPIST: He's not functioning a whole lot better than somebody who's like a stable schizophrenic. [36:00]

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. That's true. And this is why my mother has been telling me for years, "You just have to think of your brother as having a mental illness. You have a brother who's mentally ill." Which I don't accept, because like if he's mentally ill then what does he have? Severe depression? Is that a mental illness? And why isn't he going into actual in patient then, as opposed to some bullshit voluntary out patient that he signed himself up for then quits three days later? [pause] And both of my parents have said the words a homeless shelter, regarding like what he's gonna do. But it's not gonna happen. Our whole family is shrouded in fear of suicide because of my aunt, and Michael's always been the like strongest candidate in terms of like carrying that torch. So I'm sure there's not a homeless shelter in his future. But I feel like there should be hospitalization. And maybe he does have like something more severe than-I don't know, I don't understand. Maybe he does have bipolar, or schizophrenia even.

THERAPIST: It's certainly possible. I mean, I certainly have seen people who-

CLIENT: That it appears late in life?

THERAPIST: No, no. You know, it could be sort of like a messy combination of like anxiety, depression, personality disorder-

CLIENT: Addiction.

THERAPIST: And addiction, yeah.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: I mean, sometimes that happens.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, it's not schizophrenia, it's not bipolar disorder. It's like this kind of messy nebulous combination of this other stuff.

CLIENT: Mm hm. [38:10]

THERAPIST: And, you know, because partly personality disorder is the kind of thing where, you know, a person can't get out of bed for weeks or months on end to go to work, but if their friends are getting high around the corner they can get out of bed.

CLIENT: Mm hm. Or just meet them at the bar, or whatever, a band's playing.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So it's kind of maddening, because if it's just straight up depression you don't usually see that kind of-

CLIENT: No, you don't have any joy, you're just sort of in the-

THERAPIST: Right. So I'm not trying to say that's what he has, never having met him, I'm just saying that is something that exists out there in the world.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I've seen it. And usually it's the-yeah, the personality disorder part mostly, and then like the anxiety and depression part secondarily. And then addiction stuff that causes-

CLIENT: Yeah, the claustrophobic shit.

THERAPIST: Yeah, pretty much.

CLIENT: And then I think of that character from the movie, the Bradley Cooper character, "Silver Linings Playbook." Did you see it?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: You should, I recommend it. But he basically like went undiagnosed like severe bipolar until like one day that he walked in and found his wife in the shower with another man, he like snapped and like almost murdered him, and had to go to in patient, and then was like all fucked up almost permanently because it just like triggered and then switched and then he like had it. And then I always think of like-you know, I thought of Michael of course, and like, well, is something like that going on? Like if there's something like underlying that is gonna just like[40:00]

THERAPIST: Probably-

CLIENT: Probably not.

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like that.

CLIENT: It's been-

THERAPIST: Probably based on his-you know, his age and the level of stress he's had so far.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And like I would never put it on like a family member, like a parent to be able to diagnose their own kid.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: But the signs and symptoms of being like bipolar and schizophrenia are usually clear enough that with something like that-

CLIENT: I mean, and especially my parents.

THERAPIST: Yeah, exactly. They would have said-you know what I mean? Like the signs are the sort of thing actually frank enough that-

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I mean, he's totally-I mean, he's been in therapy since he was like eight, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I just-again, it's like what you said, like it's just like I don't have an understanding of why he can be so depressed, and just like laying around all day, but then like his friend's band is playing or whatever and he goes and gets like drunk.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it can be kind of [unclear 41:08] disorders are.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: [unclear] And... yeah. [pause]

CLIENT: Anyway, but all of that aside I do have to deal with the situation. [42:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think you're going to have to deal with it.

CLIENT: No, no, I know.

THERAPIST: Only that I think yeah, you do tend to feel pretty responsible for it, and like you should have seen it coming, even if you can also sort of stop and think it through and say, no, I couldn't have predicted quite what happened.

CLIENT: Yeah. [long pause]

THERAPIST: We should probably schedule for a couple weeks out.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I'm away the rest of this week, and then we've got next Friday. And I don't think we have a second time this week.

CLIENT: No, next Friday-wait.

THERAPIST: You don't have next Friday-

CLIENT: No. I'm only here Monday and Tuesday of next week, and then I'm not back until Sunday.

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