TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(Silence)

THERAPIST: (inaudible 01:52) how are you?

CLIENT: Good. How are you?

THERAPIST: Good. I'll be with you in just a moment. (inaudible 02:10)

(Silence)

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

CLIENT: Did you have a good summer?

THERAPIST: I did, thank you. How are you doing?

CLIENT: I'm okay. Yes, quite a long time, I guess. Two months, right? (Laughter) So just got back last week, so I'm still, like, adjusting to the U.S. (Laughter) Old routine and stuff. It's always, like, a big adjustment for me because the two places are so different. Yeah, I've always had a hard time. Like, even when I first moved here. So it's like trying to reconcile these two worlds. It's very hard. (Laughter) It makes me kind of schizophrenic or, like, a liar or something. So now, I'm, like, I'm trying to hoping for some maturity, you know, in terms of, like, deciding between the two places. I don't know. Like, (inaudible 04:38) everyone struggles with, so it's not like it's, you know. I don't have to, like well, like, everyone has (inaudible 04:49), like, you have everyone faced with the same problem, but you have to figure it out for yourself. Like, someone else's solution won't really help you. So...

But, yeah. Like (sighs), I mean, like, in terms of deciding where to live long term, I, like, philosophically, the two places are very different. Yeah. And there is good and bad aspects about both. And I feel like I've seen the bad aspects of Nepal up close a lot. (Laughter) So I'm hoping to see some good, although, you know, you have to be there to see that. You have to make it happen. You can't just sit around and hope that good things will happen to you. I guess that's true for both places. But yeah, I think I'm thinking these things because of what happened this time around in Nepal. Like, so, and I'm, like, so caught up with trying to understand the meaning. And then, like, you know, I don't have to think about what it means, because it's like that'll just, you know, depress me or something. So I was molested (laughter) and this is a very weird situation. So I just, like, I keep thinking, "Well, why did it happen to me?" And then I'm like, "Well, it happens to everyone." [00:06:42]

THERAPIST: What happened?

CLIENT: Well, so, like, I wanted to go there and work, you know. So I didn't just want to hang out with Chris (sp?). Like, 50 percent of the time, that's what I did, but I just was at his place in Istanbul with his parents and him. And it was raining a lot in Istanbul, so we couldn't really go out. So basically, that's what we were doing. But the other 50 percent of the time, I actually tried to find places to go to where I could be by myself and work. So Chris (sp?) asked this woman who was on his dissertation committee. She's, like, this big shot. She's an author herself and she was a scholar and all that. And, like, she used to live here and that's how they know each other.

And I was a little skeptical, like, taking favors from her, because I've always looked up to her, you know. And, like, I've always felt very and people I look up to, I don't really have, like, an equal relationship with, you know. That's just how I am. Like, I feel I'm beneath them or below them, (laughter) which is also something I should work on.

So she said she had I could stay at her old apartment, which is on top of her parents' house in India. And she said, like, that she has a tenant there, and he was going to go away for, like, a month. So I just had to pay later, really, and pay for the (inaudible 08:26). I could stay there for three weeks, and that's what I did. And I was getting work done. I was by myself in that apartment. Her parents are really nice. Her mom especially. And, like, her dad was old (ph). He was 80-years-old and he was, like, a very famous poet and, like, he's won awards. And so, he has a name. you know, a following and stuff. [00:08:54]

So he was very affectionate, and I was kind of surprised. I was like, you know, like, this 80-year-old famous poet is taking such a personal interest in my, you know, comfort. And so it was very hot. Like, really, really hot in India. So, like, there's only one room that had AC in it, but I couldn't really sit in that room. It was a bedroom. I couldn't sit in there and work, so I was working in the living room that, like, opened into a balcony. It was kind of shut. It was a glass door. And there was a cooler. I don't know if you there's no such thing as a cooler in the U.S. Like, there's wood shavings it's like a it's a big fan and there's three panel that have wood shavings on them that have via a motor. If you put water on them, it gives cool air. (Laughter)

Anyway, so they wanted to get that fixed for me so I could sit in the room. And, like, he would come upstairs to check on the machine. And I would see his little face, like, from the balcony. Like, I'd be working and I'm seeing him, like, you know, two feet away, behind that glass and, like, bending down, looking at the cooler. And I would be, like, "Oh my gosh," you know. I felt very humbled and, you know, very (inaudible 08:54).

So he would just, you know, ask me personal questions. Like, you know, "My daughter says you don't want to commit right now because you're working or you want to finish your project." I said, "Yeah." Then he was like, "Give me a hug." First he was like just a handshake, then he was like, "Give me a hug." (Laughter) I was a bit weirded out, but I was like, "You're a little (ph) 80-year-old man, harmless and, you know, my friend's father." Or, you know, not my friend but, you know, in some sense, is my friend.

And then, yeah. So, like, one evening, like, his wife was away and she was actually visiting the daughter. And, like, he and I it was raining heavily, so I went upstairs and got an umbrella. Soon as her car was pulling in, but before that, he was like, "Yeah, just sit with me." And at one point, he said, "Sit on -" Because there was only one chair on the balcony, so he said, "Well, you can sit on my lap." (Laughter) I was just like, what? You know, so I just ignored that. I was like, yeah, he's, you know, 80. He can't really mean what I think he might mean. It was, like, a flag and I didn't want to react on it, because I was like, I'm the one who's a pervert (laughter) because I'm thinking he's up to no good. So I ignored that.

And then, that night, he pulled out, like, an astrological chart and stuff and asked me about my birthday. And told me things and, like, tried to predict my future and all that. Then he asked certain questions that, again, you know, I was like, okay, this perversion of my own, (laughter) if I'm thinking he's a pervert. Because he asked me, like, "Do you crave a man's touch?" I ignored that. You know, just, like, this is ridiculous. [00:12:20]

So, you know, we didn't see each other that often but, like, sometimes I would see him on the balcony. So I felt, like, obligated to go out there and talk to him. And that one evening his wife was away, like, I saw him on the balcony, and I went out and talked to him. And, like, he was (inaudible 12:40) "Give me a hug," and this and that. And then, like, he came in, into the apartment. And he was like, "Is there a freckle on your chest? I've seen it on the chart." (Laughter) I was just, like, completely weirded out. And I was like, no. (Laughter) And then I looked for it. I was like, oh yeah, there is one. It's, like, it's on my breast, you know. It's like but that was a bit embarrassing.

So I was just like, what does it mean? Does it mean I'm going to have breast cancer? You know, what does it mean? And he didn't answer. And then he looked all sad. And he was like, "I wish I had a daughter like you," you know, like, "I wish I could take your pain away. You don't really have a dad. I wish I could be your dad. Your mom is very depressed, isn't she? You're doing this thing. You have no friends and no money." I was like, wait, wait, wait. (Laughter) You know, like, my mom is fine. I have friends. And, you know, I'm fine. I'm not asking you for financial help or anything.

So, you know, it was, like, a weird thing. Like, weirdly (inaudible 13:45) and all that. But anyways, so, like, so he said all that, then he went away. And then I'd lock the door, but I guess I must not have. I'm not sure. Because, like, he came back in and he said he was crying or something. And he said, "Please don't tell anyone about this. I don't really show my wounds to anyone." I was like, okay, I don't really understand what you mean by this. But I ignored that. And I said, no, and I said, "Oh, don't be silly. I don't you know, of course not. I won't even tell your daughter." I felt, you know. I just felt like I couldn't really analyze the situation. My head was elsewhere. Like, I was truly focused on my work, and maybe I shouldn't have been (laughter) so focused on that.

So, I mean, I didn't really want to spend time thinking and analyzing what was happening here. I just thought, you know, they were taking such nice care of me. And the father being such a, you know, poet and stuff, maybe he was, like, taking an interest in me, in my comfort and all that. I didn't really know what to do with the thing that he said.

But anyway, so I felt like, you know, I should do something. So I went down and got presents, but that was earlier. So I said, you know, like, "When Mami comes back, I can come downstairs and we can have tea." And so I asked him what time she was going to come back, and he said, like, 6:30. So at 6:45 I went downstairs, and there was no one there except him and the dog. And I had this ridiculous thing of knocking on his bedroom door. Because, like, their door is open, so I just went in and I went into his room. And he was lying on his bed. Like, his shirt buttons open and the AC on full blast. (Laughter) It was so cold.

And he just immediately got up, soon as he saw me walk in. And I gave him the gift I'd got for him. And he was like, "Oh, you're always bringing gifts." And he said, "I'm crying." I'm like, "Why?" He's like, you know, "I'm lonely. You're lonely. My daughter is lonely." And then he started, you know, hugging me. And, you know, like, caressing my face and kissing my face. Before I knew it, he was shoving his tongue into my mouth. And I just I didn't even know what was happening, so I didn't, like, push him away. I didn't, like, say stop. I did not say stop or no, the two words that I really should have said. [00:16:30]

So, you know, he did that a couple of times, and then he reached for my breasts and was trying to pull it out. And I was just like, what is he doing? Is he going to bless my freckle so I don't have breast (laughter) it was like your mind is, like, playing weird games with you at that point. And then I'm like, "No, no, no." I was laughing, being silly. And I said, "No, don't do this. Let's go outside. I'll make tea. You know, let's wait for Mami." And, you know, he just (inaudible 16:58) he kept doing what he was doing. So then finally, I, you know, like, wrestled myself away from him. And he's 80, I suppose, so he doesn't have all that much strength. And I just said, you know, "Look at the present. It was made in the States," and all that. And then I ran upstairs. (Laughter)

And then I just felt so grossed out. You know, I couldn't get the taste of the onions from my mouth. He must have eaten something full of onions. I was brushing my teeth. And then I just locked myself in the bathroom, and I called Chris (sp?), then I told him what had happened. And he was very shaken up. He was in a different part of the country, on a conference. So he took an early flight and came to India and, like, took me away from that place.

But I was quite shaken up for, you know, the next few days. Because I was like I just felt so betrayed because, you know, he just five minutes ago, you know, 15 minutes ago, that I want to be your dad, you know. So he earned my confidence in that way, you know. And I just let my guard down. I was like, it's okay to hug an 80-year-old man who wants to be my dad, you know. (Laughter) But, you know, obviously, it's not okay, what he did. That's why I was, you know, betrayed. I felt betrayed. [00:18:22]

So, like, a couple days later, the daughter sent both Chris (sp?) and me an e-mail like, "Why did you leave so early and all of a sudden?" You know, "This is not done," you know, la, la, la. And I was just shaken up. I was still in the city. I was still in India, but staying with Chris (sp?) and his friends. So I just was like, you know, fuck this. You know, like, why should I lie? Because I was really petrified when this had happened, because I feel very, like, subordinate to her. And I feel like, you know, she's so influential and this and that. As well as the back of my head, I was hoping to get favors from her. Favors like this (ph) or favors like introducing me to, like, other artists or something. I don't know.

Like, it seemed like when you meet someone influential, you don't want to mess it up, right? You don't want things to be bad between you. You want them to like you, this and that. So I was very I was terrified when that had happened, but then I was like, you know, this is not my doing, you know. I guess I felt mad at the guy. So I just kind of wrote her a very civil e-mail, like, you know, something inappropriate happened between your dad and me. But, you know, it's like, I want to put it behind me and this and that. And, you know, I hold you in high regard.

And she wanted to live at Chris's (sp?) place. Because she was coming to the U.S. So I said, yeah, I'll give you the keys and stuff. So then (laughter) she said, you know, I was like, this is, you know, like this is not "I can't believe this, and let me talk to my parents." And then she sent another e-mail just to Chris (sp?) saying, "Maybe Cecelia (sp?) has psychological problems. It's really hard for me to believe this about my dad, who is 80 and has been married for the past probably 50 years. Maybe Cecelia's (sp?) been traumatized as a child earlier, so she whatever," you know. [00:20:31]

And then she sent both of us an e-mail, which was, like, the worst e-mail (laughter) worst hate e-mail I've ever gotten, you know. So I guess I should show it to you because, like, you know, it's out there, and it's on my head. (Laughter) It's like, you know, I want to get exorcised from it. But basically, you know, like, all your worst fears come true because, you know, you want to make a life as an artist, and you want people to like you. Especially people like her. And like, they say that they hate you. (Laughter) So it's just like, wow. I was then, you know, kicked out of the place that I wanted to be in, you know. Like, the circle. So I guess the e-mail hurt me much more than the actual thing that happened. I went and spoke to, like, a couple counselors in India. Like, a friend suggested I do that.

THERAPIST: Why wouldn't you call me?

CLIENT: I don't know if that was possible. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: We Skyped before.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I did think about it. I thought of Skyping. I thought of writing to you, but I guess I didn't know if that would work out, so I just kind of thought that I would talk to you once I called back. But yeah, these people, you know, they deal with such cases of violence (inaudible 22:14) and all that. So, I mean, it was good to talk to them, and it was, like, interesting, because Chris (sp?) was sitting next to me, and he was the one who was crying. He was actually crying. I've never seen him cry. (Laughter) Because he felt responsible, you know, and all that.

But yeah, so they had, like, a Nepalese perspective on it. I mean, they were like, you know, this is bad. You know, don't blame yourself. It's his fault, and it's not your fault. It's not his daughter's fault. It's not Chris's (sp?) fault. But they did say, you know, like, so if you had been bought up in Nepal, you would have picked up on those signs.

THERAPIST: Oh, come on Cecelia (sp?). (Laughter) You don't think in the U.S. people know how to pick up on those signs?

CLIENT: (Laughter) That's true.

THERAPIST: Do you know why you didn't call me? Because you know I would have called you on your bullshit.

CLIENT: My bullshit?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Because, you know I mean, I am sorry for what happened to you. It sounds like a bad situation.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you didn't take responsibility for yourself.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Oh, I ignored this. I ignored that. I ignored this. It sounded like a situation you should have left well before it happened.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But you wanted things from her, and so you let it go. But that's your choice.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, you know, like, I feel like probably you knew I wasn't going to buy into the victim narrative, and maybe that's why you didn't want to call me.

CLIENT: No, it's not like I have choices. I thought that the choices I had was to ignore what was happening and just avoid seeing him, you know.

THERAPIST: But it didn't sound like you avoided seeing him.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I didn't, like, seek him out.

THERAPIST: Didn't you go downstairs for tea with him?

CLIENT: Well, to have tea with him and his wife.

THERAPIST: But that's still not avoiding him. I mean, I know that it's also his wife, but you could avoid them. [00:24:14]

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't really know. I honestly did not read the sexual signs at all. (Laughter) So I don't yeah. I guess that's what I'm surprised by. Like, why not? Because, you know, someone saying, "Sit on my lap" is not exactly not sexual, you know. I don't know why. (Laughter) And I didn't want to run away because I was making good progress. And it was a good setup. Like, I really liked the city, and I had a routine. Like, I would work in the morning, and go out on the train and, like, explore places on my own. So I didn't want to, like, mess that up. I mean, it was only for, like, you know, three weeks. So I didn't want to jeopardize that neat little setup. Yeah. I guess it didn't really occur to me that I should leave. And just because he'd said, "Sit on my lap," you know.

THERAPIST: Well, like you say, I mean, also there were other things you liked about being there.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I guess if I had picked up on the sexual thing, I would have just said, "Okay, this is serious. I should avoid him. I should, you know, just not see him until my time here is up. Because this could get really bad. Because if he makes a pass at me, then God knows what I'll do, how I'd react. And then just ruin everything that his daughter and, you know. Ruin things for me and for Chris (sp?)." And, you know, like, if I had picked (laughter) up on the sexual signs.

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like you didn't pick up on it even when he was kissing you, because you didn't push him away.

CLIENT: Yeah. I thought, okay, this is a father's love. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Really. Like, really. I mean, people say Chris (sp?) said, "You should have your head examined." Like, well, I am. (Laughter) I don't know. Like, I really didn't.

THERAPIST: Well, what point then did you feel differently? [00:26:28]

CLIENT: When I went upstairs. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: And what about that changed? What do you think changed in that time?

CLIENT: I don't know. I just (pause) I guess I had somehow let out of that whole, like, cloud in which I was in. And I was able to see everything. I mean, I wasn't able to see everything. I mean, it took time because, like and Chris (sp?) says, you know, that's how, like, predators and perverts work. Like, they earn a child's and, like, he sees me as a child in the situation, I guess, because of the age difference.

THERAPIST: But that's where it's really almost perverse, because he's the child. He is this old man. He may not even have all of his brains about him. He may not even know what he was doing.

CLIENT: That's what I thought. You know, giving him the benefit of the doubt. But I failed to be an adult in that situation too. I mean, an adult is someone who knows about sex, right. They know about, yeah, people's I don't know why. I've always been like this. Like, I just don't pick up on this. Maybe because of the childhood trauma. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Well, that's what I started to think about. Because even when you said molested, usually adults don't use the word molested. They get raped.

CLIENT: Yeah, but this isn't rape.

THERAPIST: It wasn't rape, but there's not or they say assaulted. I guess if you get inappropriate sort of sexual contact.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, this was inappropriate, right. It's not in my head.

THERAPIST: Right. But you wouldn't use the assault. That's what I'm saying. That's why there's a confusion, because you're trying to use a child descriptions that you would prefer to a child to an adult, and there are no equivalent. There is no equivalent really.

CLIENT: What do you mean? Between what?

THERAPIST: There's no molestation equivalent to an adult. A molestation applies that someone who's sort of physically unable, you know, and someone who gains the trust in the way that you can gain a child's trust, but not an adult's trust. [00:28:44]

CLIENT: But this is exactly what happened here. I mean, he gained my trust.

THERAPIST: Right, but it didn't happen that way, because you're an adult.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: It didn't happen that way, because you're an adult. That's why it makes less sense.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know, because I am an adult. (Laughter) But he infantilized me also, I feel. I'm not saying it's just him. I may be infantilized myself anyways. Like, if someone comes up to me and says, you know, "Oh, you poor -" and these are his words. He always called me "you poor baby. Oh, you poor baby," you know. And then he would caress my face. And then I would just be, like, a little weirded out but, you know, like, still, like, open to that interaction. Because maybe if you don't have a father, you always do have this open wound. You allow people to, like, physically touch you and metaphorically, you know, touch you and get close to you.

It wasn't as though that I was, like, really needy. I didn't walk into the maybe I did. Maybe that's the impression that I give, or maybe that's the impression that I gave at that time. But, you know, I wanted to get my work done and I did. And I just wanted to be grateful and not be all, you know, like, "Oh," you know, like, "I'm young, so I'm just going to do what I want to do." Which is actually (laughter) what I should have done, you know. I shouldn't have been at home that evening, even though it had gotten to be boring to go out by myself every evening, you know.

I used to pride myself a lot because I was able to connect to people not my age. Like, older people and younger people. Well, mostly older people. So I thought, you know, like, you know, his daughter would like, we hear about these (inaudible 30:50). When she lived in that apartment, she would always fight with her parents because she would stay out late and, like, they would get upset. And I never did that, you know. So I was like, hey, I'm the good daughter, you know. Like, you know, I respect their curfew, and I care about them. And I had, like, older men, like, much older men, like, when I was 21 or something. I had I guess I was seeing. I don't really know. A professor who was, like, 60-something. But it had only turned sexual one time, and then after and that, I mean, he kissed me under the mistletoe and on Christmas. It wasn't he didn't infantilize me this weird way that I feel like Nepalese men sometimes do, you know. [00:31:47]

Maybe it's not just Nepalese men. But his wife had passed away. And I used to come help him with his computer, because I used to work at this place in the university. I was an undergrad or I'd just graduated and, like, he was one of our clients. And I would go and meet him in his office. I had lunch with him and his wife once, and then, a few months later, she passed away. So I guess we just started hanging out. Like, he would take me out to places and museums and, like, plays and things. I met his grandchildren. (laughter) And, like, a couple times I went to his place. It was just us. And he made me dinner. And then one time, he tried to kiss me. I didn't feel unsafe in that situation at all. Like, I felt like I had all my wits about me, you know. I was consenting. I did want to hang out with him. I did want that experience. And when I was uncomfortable, I walked away.

But here, it just was a very weird situation because, like, I feel like right off the bat, he started turning me into a victim, like, saying, "Oh, you don't have friends. You don't have family. You don't have money. You know, your mom is depressed. You don't have a father." (Laughter) I was really weirded out by all those things because I don't I mean, I think in those terms. I think in negative terms sometimes, but on the whole, I'd like to project a more positive image of myself, you know. I'd like for people to think well about me, not to pity me, you know. [00:33:36]

THERAPIST: But part of you must have liked that pitying.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Part of you must have liked that pitying.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. But it wasn't a part that I appreciated. I mean, I guess I was like, oh, I guess he understands me. But I didn't want those things, like, repeated, you know. Yeah, okay, so sometimes the things you said are true. And you're being kind to me because of that. That's fine, you know. Let's move on. (Laughter) But I don't know. He didn't really want to move on. He didn't really want to look at me differently. He wanted to look at me that way. I was a little uncomfortable by that.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm still confused about how in the end you felt you were a victim and you wanted to do go to a victims of violence program or counselor.

CLIENT: Well, I didn't. Actually, I postponed the flight to go to this place, just because Chris's (sp?) friend really, like, pushed it. Pushed for it very hard. He was like, "If you don't make [a mark] (ph) right now, things might escalate." I mean, it was like, we were all kind of upset by this. So [we were giving in that] (ph) I should even lodge (ph) a case. So I don't know. I mean, I guess they thought that it was I didn't deserve that kind of, you know, like, treatment. But you don't think that? It wasn't serious enough?

THERAPIST: Not the way you told it. The way you told it, he tried to kiss you, after being confused, and then you left. I don't actually even understand the violence part. It didn't sound like you were trying to it didn't seem like he was attacking you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I don't actually understand that part.

CLIENT: Well, I felt violated, you know. Like, it was like, I feel like, a great breach of trust, in the sense that, you know, he said, "I want to be your father." So I put my, you know, body in his hands, basically, at that point. And so, him shoving his tongue into my mouth was, I guess, violent in that sense. Not in the sense that, you know, I was physically hurt by that. But, you know, mentally and psychologically, I was. You know, emotionally. [00:36:28]

THERAPIST: Yeah. But I guess as adults, people do things in relationships all the time. They make promises and they renege on them. Or, you know, they tell you one thing and then they do another. But, you know, in a love relationship or whether it's just I guess people would be calling the police nonstop. I mean...

CLIENT: I don't know. Like I said, you know -

THERAPIST: Like, "I want to take care of you baby. I'll do whatever you want." (Laughter) I just want to take care of you, if you would just let me have sex with you." I mean, I don't know.

CLIENT: Well, like, in the U.S., I think it's also the context. I don't know why I think that, but I think you know, like I said, with that professor, I felt like I was in control, you know. He did kiss me, and I didn't think feel like that was violent because, you know, because he knew, I think. I'm pretty sure he knew that the age gap was ridiculous and what he was doing was a little silly, that I didn't really that I wouldn't sleep with him. I wouldn't be comfortable with physical intimacy and that I was hanging out with him purely for, like, emotional reasons. But he was vulnerable and I wanted to, yeah, be there for him. Even if this, like, social way.

But in this situation, I feel like it was different because (pause) yeah, I don't know why. Because (pause), yeah, I don't know why. I didn't feel as much in charge of my own that I had all my wits about me.

THERAPIST: But that's not his fault.

CLIENT: No, it's not his fault, at all. [00:38:28]

THERAPIST: Well, but that's what prosecuting someone is, saying, "It's your fault that you did this to me."

CLIENT: No, no, no. It's my fault because if I had all my wits about me, I would, you know, react differently and I would be able to get myself not necessarily out of that situation prematurely, but at least, like, guard myself from things progressing. Getting to that point. I don't know. Like, I've never really thought about it in the way that you're putting it. (Laughter) It isn't that, like, scary to think that it was my fault. (Laughter) But yeah, it is, I guess, if I try to think about it objectively, it is interesting that you say that. (Laughter) (Pause) So you're saying I could have prevented this whole thing?

THERAPIST: If you were feeling uncomfortable at the beginning or feeling that the boundaries weren't good or having someone ask you for hugs, you know, you needed to get out of that situation. You didn't want to get out of that situation for a variety of complicated reasons.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, I understand how you're using fault. I think about it more as responsibility and not as fault. You know, a point you have responsibility to take care of yourself. I mean, if someone comes up to you on the street and, you know, smacks you over the head and rapes you, was it your responsibility to do something differently? I mean, there's nothing you could do, right? You were assaulted.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So there's, like, that extreme case. So, yeah. I mean, they'll be all sorts of people to exploit you in life, if you let yourself be exploited. They're everywhere.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, not to sound paranoid. It's not like they're everywhere, everywhere. But the part of it that you I mean, the, you know. (Pause)

CLIENT: [The part] (ph) what?

THERAPIST: Well, what you're talking about is all these ways in which you're vulnerable to certain kinds of things that, you know, especially around him talking about being, you know, your dad and, you know, you needing a father. And you feel that vulnerability. And I appreciate that, but ultimately, you're still also responsible for your own vulnerabilities. You know, about understanding them and appreciating them. And I guess the thing that strikes me the most is the way you tell the story isn't very convincing from the point that you're supposedly trying to prove. And to me, that's what's most interesting. It's like you don't buy it. I feel like I don't buy it because you don't buy it. [00:41:17]

CLIENT: Well, I don't want to sound like a victim. (Laughter) You k now, that's why I'm telling it the way that I'm telling it. I am taking or at least trying to take responsibility of where I should, you know, feel responsible. Because if I was trying to sell you a story, I would say, "Oh, you know, he constructed this narrative. And he completely, you know, infantilized me, and he completely "

THERAPIST: But that's not I mean, people in live will infantilize you. You're an adult.

CLIENT: Yeah. But see, like, in the Nepalese context, it is different, because you don't just get up and walk out of a famous person's home, you know. You don't show them the finger. You don't, you know yeah.

THERAPIST: But then why did you when you did? I guess -

CLIENT: I did well, I waited until Chris (sp?) had come back, so he could go downstairs and give the money to the people.

THERAPIST: But it seems like you left earlier because you said that, you know, it's just the situation wasn't working out for you, [you made it] (ph) another reason. You could have maintained a nice relationship. I mean, it seems like if the goal was to not be in this, there are other be in the situation where your relationship was destroyed. And also, that, you know, if you were more powerless, it seemed like you would get out earlier, not later.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Silence)

CLIENT: Well, I don't know. I mean, that's why I think that I shouldn't have taken favors from her because, you know, this power imbalance, really, I don't know how to negotiate that. I mean, it is my head, maybe. You know, like, there is a way in which you interact with people who are supposedly more powerful than you. Either that is true or that, you know, you stop thinking of people as being more powerful than you. (Laughter) You learn how to stand up to them, and you learn how to speak up for yourself, and you learn how to, you know and all that, like, will translate into you taking responsibility of yourself.

THERAPIST: Well, she's also more powerful than you because you wanted something from her. I mean, you couldn't come to the States and have her be able to get have you imprisoned. All right. She doesn't have that kind of power. She could (ph) get you imprisoned in Nepal. I mean, she doesn't have that kind of power, a power over your life. She had power over you to the extent that you gave it to her because you wanted something from her.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think that, for you, is a complicating factor. When you see people having power over you, it's a perception based in part of your own desires and what you want from them.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Sighs)

THERAPIST: And it sounds like if you left earlier and said, "Look, this is actually probably a bad situation. It could get worse or it just could stay like this, but I'm uncomfortable." You'd feel really upset about all the things you weren't getting that you really, really wanted. [00:44:30]

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. Well, in a way, I felt nice that I had connections, you know. (Laughter) That I could stay, you know, in India, of all places, for weeks, and just work.

THERAPIST: And that's one of the things I think is important. Because I feel like I can see from your vantage point, you're feeling like you've been jipped from so many things in life, that you're going to get this. This is a promise to you, and you're going to get this. (Laughter) You're not like, all the other things that question whether you can have that this summer, those are going to go away, because you just want this, and you deserve it. Because you've been deprived.

CLIENT: Well, I'm trying not to think that way, you know. Like, I'm trying to earn my keep, you know.

THERAPIST: I wasn't commenting on a way you should or shouldn't feel. I was commenting on a way you might have felt. I think (inaudible 45:34) that I know how you felt, in terms of other situations too.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Where you get something that you really hoped for. You will have it work out, even if there are indications that things might be crumbling underneath.

CLIENT: I guess. (Pause) Well, I mean, I like that slightly more than you saying, you know, I didn't take responsibility for myself. (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Well, you didn't.

CLIENT: Well, you know, I guess -

THERAPIST: And I mean that in a very general sense. I'm not saying you invited him to kiss you. But you didn't. I mean, taking responsibility for yourself is taking care of yourself on a basic level, to feeding yourself, keeping yourself safety. I mean, I'm talking about a very basic level. Listening to yourself if there's something that doesn't feel quite right.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I guess it's good to know that I didn't do all of that because I wanted something (laughter) that I thought was more important than or getting it was more important than other things. I don't know. (Laughter) (Pause) Yeah, but, like, not to convince you or anything, but, like, anyone I mean, whoever I tell this story to in Nepal would (inaudible 47:09), like, refer me to a sexual violence counselor.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I have to understand more about that. I don't...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If you're staying in someone's house that for weeks made you feel uncomfortable, they would tell you it was good that you continued to stay? I don't understand.

CLIENT: No, no, that's not what they say. I mean, the point being that they'd say him doing, you know, those two things was wrong, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I guess from my vantage point is beside the point.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, that's great. I mean, that, to me, seems like a political statement. Not a psychological statement.

CLIENT: Yeah, and it's important to have. I mean... (Laughter)

THERAPIST: Perhaps I need to but I'm your psychologist too.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly.

THERAPIST: And a political statement is also not about you. It's a form of exploitation too that you become a symbol for something else that may not be about you at all.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm not implying that people are intentionally trying to exploit you. I'm simply saying it's not a psychological issue.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I don't know. I guess I should have taken care of myself. (Laughter) That is what people do, even when they go to, like, strange places and they I guess especially when they go to strange places. They have (pause) they're more, like, in tune to what they're feeling.

THERAPIST: I mean, the other part of it that I mean, it wasn't clear that he felt he could have felt that you were leading him on. I'm not saying you were, but I could understand his vantage point, that he thought he was engaging in something consensual. Like, he may not have even understood. So it's hard for me to see him as a perpetrator from that vantage point.

CLIENT: Well, I don't understand. Like, so, how could you see me as that? Because he wanted -

THERAPIST: You were hugging him. You were putting (ph) -

CLIENT: But he said, you know, "I want to be your father."

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean, we can talk about that too, that you -

CLIENT: But how can he see me as a consenting adult when he knows the age difference and he himself has created that narrative of I'm a baby and he wants to be my father. I mean, this is the sort of thing fathers do? Like -

THERAPIST: No, but -

CLIENT: Have, you know, like, sexual relationships with their daughters?

THERAPIST: No, and I realize I'm sort of focusing far more on the concrete. But it also speaks to some level of senility on his part. Confusion.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, you know, you're sort of trying to parse out the logic of it. I mean, my sense is he's not a particularly well man, but I know that to be true. But there's a lot in this that we're not I feel like I'm staying very much in (ph) the concrete. There's a lot of multiple levels about this you (ph) need to understand. We do need to stop for today, okay Cecelia (sp?)?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So I can on Wednesday morning, I have a time free at 8:00. I'm sorry, 9:50.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Would you be available for that one?

CLIENT: Yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: You want to do that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. So, great. And also, I think for I think you didn't pay the copay before you left.

CLIENT: Yeah, because I'd wanted to, and you said it's okay if I don't.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, that's fine. I'm just saying I just wanted -

CLIENT: Yeah. Should I pay you now?

THERAPIST: You can. (inaudible 50:59). Let me see if I have it. Yeah, no, no. I didn't that wasn't an indication that you should have. Let's see. (Pause) Do you still have the statement? I actually don't.

CLIENT: Okay. Yeah.

THERAPIST: I can find it. Let me know if you can't find it, and then I'll find it. It'll be somewhere.

CLIENT: Okay. It's probably in my e-mail, so I'll just have the check ready for next time.

THERAPIST: Okay, that's fine. So I will see you at 9:50 on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay, sounds good.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care.

CLIENT: Yeah. Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT