TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in!

CLIENT: So for the previous couple of months there is a balance, (inaudible 00:00:28] 30?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I did look that up when you left.

CLIENT: (inaudible) (pause; sigh; ripping of paper 00:01:55)

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: So, I think from last time, I'm basically really hurt by your words. So... it's, like, it's ridiculous trying to, like, defend, you know, myself for that little point. So, yeah, I guess we should not talk about that or, like... yeah because you said, I think these were your words, you said something like, "You wouldn't buy my bullshit." (chuckles) So that was just like, you know, the daughter, my friend talking. That's the tone she took. You know, she's like, you know, "You're a fucking liar," and, you know, like... you know, just go over and die, basically (chuckles) [00:02:46]

So, like, it's really, like been very shocking for me to, like, get... like live with her, you know like, try and get over, um, the things that she said. So it's really just like, you know there are no point in, like, trying to like, talk about this. I mean, I don't really... I'm feeling the point of not telling people about this. I mean, it's just, you know... the damage, whatever it is, has been done. Maybe it's, there is no damage at all, I don't know. But, I can hardly just move forward with, like, feeling this way, you know, like wanting to defend myself in those situations, you know?

THERAPIST: Well, I certainly don't want you to have to defend yourself in here, because I don't want you to feel that you're accused of anything. [00:03:47]

CLIENT: Well, that's basically, that's what it felt like. You know, like you don't get out of there sooner and it's like, well I just... it's hard, I mean these situations are, this situation in particular was hard to know where to draw the line. Actually, I had left because the guy says, you know, "Sit on my lap," you know. I don't think so! (chuckles). Just, I mean, maybe if he was a total stranger, I would have. You know, first time (we're in ph?) the same room when he says something like that. Obviously, I'm going to leave the room if he's a stranger. You know, if I don't have any connection with him, but... In this situation, you know, someone that I really looked up to, sometimes walk out of there. Like if someone, in a position of authority and, you know, like, there are all these mixed feelings. (sigh) [00:04:40]

You know, so that's something I value, kind of maybe want to like give him the benefit of the doubt the first couple of times. So, um, I mean, I'm trying not to think like, every time I like think that, I think what that involves is just taking responsibility for some of my actions and... what I can take responsibility for is, like, I don't really know why (chuckles) like I said. I couldn't really rule out, um... and then (do I like seeing him and his wife a thousand times ph?) a total, like, fluke because I went 15 minutes after he said his wife would be there, so... It's really, you know, why I'm trying to blame myself, but...It was like, just really shocking to hear that you know, like her, like my friend talking, so... [00:05:40]

THERAPIST: Well, for starters, (Cecelia sp?), I am very sorry I hurt your feelings.

CLIENT: Well, I mean...

THERAPIST: No, it matters to me. It matters to me.

CLIENT: Well, I don't know why you said that I was bullshitting (chuckles) because, it was just like, huh! Am I really capable of that? Am I that low, as you know, as my friend said, I am a low-life, literally a low-life? Am I con artist, am I, you know, like a two-bit whatever? You know (chuckles)... I would certainly hope not, you know? [00:06:11]

THERAPIST: I certainly don't recall saying that about you.

CLIENT: No, no. I'm saying my friend said that (chuckles) so... I'm trying to, like, tell you that those two things are like conjoined (chuckles) in my head, so... I guess I earlier, like, I'm more hurt by her response, you know, than the thing with her dad, so...

I mean, I'm just like, I know you don't want to hurt me, so I'm just like, "Am I really that bad?" You know, like, "Is that what people think of me?" Because, you know, she said the worst things, so...

THERAPIST: No, I want to know more about what she said and how it made you feel, but I'm not making the claim about your being bad at all.

CLIENT: So, why did (ph you) say I was bullshitting?

THERAPIST: I never knew (blocked) that way. Because I thought, and I apparently misjudged the situation, I thought what you were telling me (which has happened to us before), where you're telling me something that you don't fully believe, and I'm pointing out that. And I don't mean it in that "You're bullshitting me (ph beeyatch) (Client chuckles) kind of like. I'm try... I'm... my intent is to, sort of, playfully talk with you about something that you both believe and don't believe at the same time. And that believing and not believing comes through to me, and I comment on it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, like, the reason why I don't want to believe it is because I don't want for it to be like this, that... I guess I'm trying to fight back the, like, those things, like, you know, "Oh God, you know, you took advantage of me." That's totally normal, what I'm saying. And actually, you know, at the moment when it was happening, and at the moment when I went back, I was, you know, feeling so many things and I remember thinking, "Oh, God. This cannot get out. I'm never going to tell anyone about this." Um... (chuckles) and then the next moment I call (ph) and he was the one who was totally shocked. He was the one who used all those negative words, you know. He was the one, like, weeping, you know? [00:08:20]

But, I'm not ready to say that he, like, this is his narrative, but, like, you're allowed to say you've been through something, and you're like, whatever just happened and then someone else who hasn't been through that, like, reacts and is shocked, and then you're like, "Okay, maybe this was really shocking." So I've always tried to downplay these things, I don't know, like, if you remember me talking about, like, when the (inaudible at 00:08:50) happened in my childhood, I'm always like, Yeah, well, what I'm trying to do there is, I think, is like just saying that this, that doesn't have power over me, or I don't want it to have power over me. And that situation when I was a child, I guess, I couldn't defend myself. Here also I feel like I tried, like, and you know normally when you know, you did those couple of things when I pulled myself, managed to pull myself away from that, from him physically and from that whole situation, the only thing that I did that I regret was to tell his daughter, you know. [00:09:27]

And even that was just as civil as I could make it, I just said, you know, there are inappropriate things. I didn't say, "Your, you know, fucking pervert dad, you know, shoved his tongue in my (inaudible 00:09:38) mouth," and you know, he did this after calling me his daughter. Which is exactly what I felt like, you know, like, I feel like I cannot compare this situation to any of the previous situations I've been in, like sexual situations, because no one, like, I feel like, manipulated me like this. And I know that when you say manipulate, you're giving agency to the other person, to the manipulator. But I feel like, you know, there is... that's what I feel, you know? Like, there is this narrative that was created around me, this waif of a person, you know, no family, no friends, no money. You know, it's just like, totally, like a person anyone could attack, right? So, and I was trying... [00:10:28]

THERAPIST: ....and the note, the narrative, no family, no money, he was saying that about you?

CLIENT: Yeah, they were, yeah. It was like... and I was trying my best to make a change. I said "No, I'm fine. No, I don't need no love (company ph? 00:10:44). No, I have friends." But then really, I wasn't really very convincing, I guess. (chuckles) But I think that's because, like, I would maybe laugh it off or I'd look like I am emotionally needy, so... I guess I want to work on that and like, be very confident in myself first that, yes, I am fine (chuckles) and then, you know, once I've convinced myself, I'll be able not to work so hard to convince, for convincing other people. But like, yeah, this situation is just so totally weird, because no one's ever done this kind of, like, preparation on me, you know? For like weeks, like winning my trust and then like doing something that is totally like, no, I don't want this, you know? [00:11:35]

THERAPIST: I think that's happened to you a lot in your life.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Hmm. I don't see that, but...

THERAPIST: I think you feel that way with (Orney sp?). You described him exactly like that.

CLIENT: As what?

THERAPIST: Someone who sort of gained your trust, and then turns on you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And your dad...

CLIENT: Yeah

THERAPIST: I mean, I'm, not this particular unfolding, but...

CLIENT: Yeah. ...I guess this was like the most egregious because it happened in such a short time. Yeah, I mean, like I don't want to feel like a victim, I don't want to feel like I didn't look out for myself and that's why this happened, because, like I said, it's just... didn't really know when to say, "This is enough" you know? (chuckles) [00:12:30]

THERAPIST: Well, maybe that's an important thing for us to, you know, work on.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When do you say that. ...But it becomes all the more complicated when you feel you need someone, and you need this particular person, and then a sort of how much would you put up with? I guess one of the things that we have been talking about (and I perhaps have not very effectively talked about on Monday), is your perception of how much you need people, and the extent to which maybe you might need a lot less from them than you think you do, or at least feeling like you need something from someone, but you don't realize that you have options.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. (pause 00:13:23-00:13:52) I don't know... I don't really know about options right now (chuckles). (sigh) (pause) I would like to try and work on that, I guess, try to see, try to tell myself I have options in some respects, I guess. (pause 00:14:31-00:15:09)

There was another person, kind of, made a pass at me (chuckles) in that same place. That unfolded very differently (chuckles). This was the gardener who used to water the plants. Again, like, in the balcony. So I just went out and talked with him a couple of times because I like talking to, like, just, you know, normal ordinary people, just to learn things. I guess, again, you know, like, I end up bringing meals and then we just... just because I listened to him a couple of times he thought that, you know, he had a chance with me or something (chuckles). So he started, you know, coming inside, which was really weird. I just offered him water, you know, just to be, you know, kind. And then he started talking about, "Oh, yeah, let's..." And he, you know, started making overtures.

And then one time he tried to kiss me, and I just was like... you know, "Bye!" And then the next day and then the next day, he came and knocked on the door. I just, I didn't open. And I didn't tell anyone or anything because... I felt a little unsafe with him outside banging on the door, but, you know, I felt like, you know, that was, me not opening would send the right message. So, I feel like that was totally not as shocking as, you know, the other thing. So... so I guess I'm thinking when it becomes like... I'm trying to, like, understand if I can, if I can negotiate and defend myself in these situations, maybe some of them I can. [00:16:53]

But you know, that's the thing. Like, we all need people. So, I guess it's okay to kind of put that out there, that, you know, I'd like to talk to you and I'd like to be your friend, but there is that line that people do cross and think that just because you're talking to them, they can do whatever they want with you and... (sighs) I guess I have to learn to articulate, say it, like "No!" to that, you know, like... (pause)

THERAPIST: Why do you feel so vulnerable, you feel like you don't have no choice, if someone is willing to give you something, you can't say no, I'll just get it from somebody else? [00:17:43]

CLIENT: No, I think I'm learning to do that. And actually, this, I think, I hope, turns out to be a big learning, you know, a big lesson in that regard. Like, I feel like in a way, my world is shattered (chuckles) Sounds very dramatic, but like... At least my, a certain perception has been shattered. Like, I used to look up to this woman a lot, like I hoped to get, not get things from her, but like, you know, like her being so influential, I thought. And she already does do this, like she introduces like influential people to each other, and like you know... to like the up-and-comers and all, like she likes, that is her idea of the world, that she moves in the circles that she moves in, you know, like... She basically builds these ladders that people can climb and get to where they want to. [00:18:43]

I used to think, you know, that's the way to do it, you know? (chuckles) Like, you write an article somewhere, and then you know, like, you post it online and you know, like you drum up as much publicity about it and you know, that's how to live. Now that that's gone and like... feels like a vacuum, a little bit of a vacuum but... You know, like now I just know people on the ground, you know? I know real people and, you know, like that world is such a sham, you know, it's superficial in some senses and it's purely, um, you know, hypocritical and very classist. So, like, if something like this happens (chuckles) you know, then you're like... you know, they're not (inaudible) (sighs) like live up to any of the principles that they write about, you know? So now I feel like I can say or actually learn to say no, enough to say, "You know what? Thanks for all the connections that you have, but I can try and do it the hard way, alone. You know (chuckles). I'll do it my way, I'll take it slowly and accept the challenges that are unique to my situation, and I won't be so desperate." (chuckles). [00:20:14]

"After you've taken away whatever you are going to give me, that's fine, you know? I'll learn to live without them." (chuckles). So... That's what I'm trying to, like... that's what I'm trying to do. (pause) Does that sound, like...? I don't know... Does it make sense? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You're wanting to know my perspective on it?

CLIENT: Well...

THERAPIST: It sounded like you were upset with me...

CLIENT: Yeah, I was... (chuckles) [00:21:05]

THERAPIST: Angry.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Angry.

CLIENT: Well, yeah because you know, like I was at first, I was like, Oh my God, she's here, that you know, that friend is here, she's talking through you (chuckles), so... Yeah, I was like, you know, there are two people who said that I'm bullshitting, (what are the choices ph? 00:21:27) and that's not acceptable (chuckles), so... Because, you know, because if you say bullshit and she says bullshit, then, you know, maybe you'll also say some of the other things that she said (chuckles). (pause)

THERAPIST: Was she saying, "Bullshit," that it didn't happen? Is that...

CLIENT: Yeah...

THERAPIST: I see; that's very different. She wasn't saying to you that what happened didn't happen.

CLIENT: Yeah. But maybe, what I'm saying, if I read in between the lines, maybe what she's saying is, "Okay I don't want to know whatever happened, whatever you want, you can't accuse my dad of whatever. You're the one who's always seducing or whatever, whatever dirty thing that happened between the two of you, you know. Don't put it on me, it's all your fault, whatever." You know? Maybe that's how it should be, but you know, I don't know. [00:22:27]

Yeah, like people who actually, that you know, they were like, you know, she's a) in denial and b) she's just, you know, being irrational and is character bashing and just make sure you don't speak about this to people. Like, you know, scared me into shutting up. Which is fine, I don't really want to, like, talk about him, like, Oh my God, look what happened to me, or ... that's not what I want.

But I do, I don't want this situation to make me feel bad about myself, which is what it is doing. You know, like because of the e-mail and then, you know, when you said (chuckles), so I was like, Oh my gosh; am I total basket case? I don't know how to take care of myself and I just walk into these situations and then, you know...So I hope that's not the case. [00:23:40]

THERAPIST: There are situations that tap into particular vulnerabilities that you have, where you don't take as good care of yourself as you can. I am not at all saying that, because I think badly of you. I'm saying that as your therapist, who wants to help you with these things.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I should work on those vulnerabilities and not feel so vulnerable, or if I do, then I shouldn't put that out there so much. [00:24:12] (pause)

I think that's, like I said, that's what I want to learn from the situation, that we all need people. And, you know, the same way people, maybe I need people even more. Like, you're not just like... appear like that or give that impression all the time, because you know, that will get me into trouble (chuckles). (pause)

I guess I'm trying to learn to be happy with what I have instead of like... shunning it and throwing it away. I think that's what I have to do. [00:25:08]

THERAPIST: Well, you feel angry because you feel that some people have so much more.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's your perception, and so you feel that you can feel better about that if you can get access to some of the things that they have, like (ph she). And it sounds like maybe she is someone who likes to flaunt, you know, what she has and sort of, want to project herself as someone who has power over you because of the access that she can gain you. That's her perception.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that's what I'm saying. Like, now that that perception, I can see through it. I can see the ugliness behind it. I don't want it. I do, I know, I remember feeling this with it: "Oh that person has more than me; why? That person..." Every time, I've so stopped doing that because, I'm going to take, I'm just going to pause and look at what I have and, like, feel flourishing in that, you know, like flourishing in that.

I have things, you know, like, I have good taste, I have, I love to think about things, and that can sustain me for hours, you know. I care about people, I'm a good conversationalist, (inaudible at 00:26:26), I cook well... (chuckles) That's, you know, a good set of whatever, skills and values to have. And I have, I don't have the best family, but I can tell a million stories about them, so... (chuckles). In that regard, I feel like I have a good family, (inaudible) really good material for perfect, so, you know... I don't want to, like, spend any more time than I can thinking about other, what other people have and feeling bad about myself. (pause) (sighs).

THERAPIST: What happened to you when you were a kid? You never talked about this very much.

CLIENT: As in when?

THERAPIST: When you were molested. [00:27:32]

CLIENT: Well, so my mom knew these people. I think they were like friends of my aunt. They had like a huge bungalow, and I remember all of the time, when she would take me there and... I just, I don't remember this very clearly, but I think I was like five or six at the time, but there was this boy who was like much older than me. He would just like, I don't know, like, our parents would be elsewhere, this was a huge bungalow, it was like, you know... yeah. You can, you know, get away from, you know, very conveniently, very very far away room, and they would, you know, take them like ten minutes to come to you or something like that, I don't know. (inaudible) the bathroom was bigger than this room (chuckles). [00:28:27]

THERAPIST: Were they wealthy?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess they were like, they had been in certain businesses for seven generations or something. So... But yeah, their son, yeah, I guess their son, much older than me, like he and I would nap and get through to his room, and easier to just, like he'd tell me to like pull down my underwear and, like he would just like bite me in my vagina. [00:29:01]

THERAPIST: Bite you?

CLIENT: I think so. I don't remember (chuckles) that really clearly, but I remember, I definitely remember feeling pain (chuckles). Like he would say, "Don't tell anyone, or else" you know, like. And I always remember feeling very very scared about it and, like, feeling I was carrying like a giant stinking fish or something, you know, a very heavy fish.

THERAPIST: You felt that way about him?

CLIENT: Well, just that secret, that burden of like feeling pain and then not being able to tell anyone about it, and feeling shame and, you know, like... just shame. I don't know... Because if you feel pain, you know, the first thing you want to do is scream, to let people know you are in pain (chuckles). But then that pain is mixed with shame, you're like... it's mixed, because you feel the pain and you won't shout, but you're suppressing that (sniffs) hurt and that makes it, I don't know, almost like a double... whatever, so... [00:30:10]

Finally I did tell my mom and she was totally shattered (chuckles). She was like, I'm so sorry, you know, I'm not going to take you there. And she had the talk with me (chuckles). So...

THERAPIST: Do you remember anything else about what happened?

CLIENT: No...but, yeah.

THERAPIST: But you thought he bit you?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know what he did down there (chuckles). It was just like... I don't remember, but I remember feeling pain, so... So yeah, I guess I do have like major intimacy issues and feel, you know, like I have a bad body image and... That's one of the reasons why (Chris's sp?) and my relationship is like... and he's now, like, pushing for therapy (chuckles) so... But one of the things was just anyway, don't really feel like being intimate and... I can remember (playing ph?) once a month without feeling, like anything, feeling anything. [00:31:23]

THERAPIST: Do you know how long this went on for?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: The molestation, like how...

CLIENT: The (ph?) thing? [00:31:35]

THERAPIST: When you were a child.

CLIENT: Oh. How long it went on?

THERAPIST: Yeah, like was it a couple of times, did it go on for a matter of months...

CLIENT: I think it went on for a while, like a few times, like... I think it was habitual.

THERAPIST: Do you remember feeling scared, going over there? Or upset?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I didn't really want to go, but, I couldn't tell my mom. She seemed, I think she seemed to really enjoy meeting them herself. (pause 00:32:12-00:32:25)

And sometimes I didn't want this thing to be like that, you know? I guess that's what I wanted to tell myself, that I am grown up and I won't let the "grown up me," like, put the "kid me" through that (chuckles). I couldn't fight back then, so I guess I was trying to fight back now. I'm like, I'm taking myself out of the relationship, and I'm telling the person in charge that you're, like... this was not right. [00:33:04]

THERAPIST: Do you remember how much older he was?

CLIENT: Um... I don't know. Really, like, several years, maybe four or five years, maybe more. He was definitely still, like on the cusp of... teenage or something. (pause)

Yeah, I guess I would (never ph?) thought that this had an effect on me, the childhood thing, but maybe it did, because now that I think about it, like, even the thing with... that happened in (India ph?), um, even that has just made me, like cringe and feel like bad about, like, intimacy, definitely, like I don't have, like, people touching me. [00:34:09]

It's literally two months, but still, you know? No a month, sorry. Yeah, a month. So like (I'm unhappy ph) people like touching me and, you know, I have like a bad body image. So I guess, you know, now that I'm aware of my feelings, I see this obviously bad thing probably had impact on me, so... I definitely find, you know, sex yucky or something (chuckles). I don't... At certain times, you know, like most of the time, most of my life, that's what I, that's how I'm thinking, so... It was like a (ph? thief) from nowhere, I think I had a healthy opinion, but I just, it's gone away right now. (chuckles) [00:35:18]

(pause) It's very scary, still, you know. I find it scary. I don't know why.

THERAPIST: It; sex?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Like for now, I met this stranger and they, like, kissed me or something intimate, I just wouldn't, I don't know (chuckles). Lock myself up in a cupboard, or something (chuckles). (long pause 00:36:04-00:39:06]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: Nothing (chuckles). (pause) I sometimes understand what it is that I don't like about intimacy. I guess I feel like, pressure, like if... like unduly pressured when I don't want to do something, and they're asking me for it... Or that maybe I think that they'll take something away from me, you know? That I don't want to give, you know? (chuckles) (pause) Is that what people think about intimacy, that it's like giving something or... does that sound familiar? [00:40:17]

THERAPIST: In general?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think... Why would people ever want to have sex then?

CLIENT: What, isn't it like, so you have your space, and when someone comes close to you, they are in a sense invading that space, right?

THERAPIST: That's from the perspective of not being, if they aren't welcomed. You feel invaded if someone isn't welcomed.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't feel like welcoming anyone! (chuckles). (pause) Maybe that's what it means to not be physically attracted to someone? I don't know. That is, if you're even thinking in those terms. Most of the time, I'm not, I'm like... not really looking at people and finding myself attracted to them. I guess that's fine. [00:41:34]

(pause) Yeah, I guess it's hard for me to feel, like, think of these things, think, at least (inaudible 00:42:00) when I'm feeling really bad about myself. (chuckles) So, um... I think it will take a few months to get over that.

THERAPIST: A few months?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: By feeling badly about yourself because of...

CLIENT: ...because of this whole thing, I feel wretched about it. (chuckles) The break-up of friendship and maybe things she said and really have... And the nice things to think about, and that's, you know, that's good obviously, but like I don't really feel good about myself, you know, like, in terms of ... (but I'm telling her ph?), that's okay, you know, like I don't have to think about myself. I can just think of things that I like, so... Like intimacy and sex is related to feeling good about myself for some reason, I don't know. (pause) Something I feel good about myself, I can't really feel like I would want anyone to know (about ph?) it. [00:43:30]

THERAPIST: We certainly have more to talk about there. We're going to need to stop for today. So, 10:15 time on Monday and this time on Wednesday, I'll have this at least till the end of the month; I'll probably have it after that, too, but, I can let you know. But do those two times work for you?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, great. So then, I'll see you this coming Monday, then.

CLIENT: Okay. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. Take care.

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