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THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

CLIENT: (Breathing heavily) [I had to run here] (ph). (Pause) [0:06:00]

THERAPIST: What happened that you had to run?

CLIENT: (Chuckling) I just lost track of time. I took too long in the shower. I was working out, and I didn't estimate (chuckling) properly. (Pause) I'm out of shape (chuckling). [0:06:59] I was thinking about what you said, that I get into this mode of... like, when I don't think? And I think we were... I mean, I want to understand that comment a bit more obviously. But I was... because you said this in reference to me going to see a counselor in India, right?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm, partly (ph), yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, so, I mean, I remembered that I actually was very divided about going to see a counselor because I... my first thought was, well, I already have a counselor. And, you know, granted that she's faraway, and I'd have to... you know, I was figuring out how to get in touch. I was thinking maybe e-mail, maybe Skype, maybe phone. [0:08:00] But then the guy whose house we were staying at, he was very... and (inaudible at 0:08:10) was very respectable, come from a very famous, respectable family. (Chuckling) So I was feeling a little conscious of that. But he'd worked with women in worse situations, and I just wanted to... I guess from more out curiosity? Like, anthropological curiosity? I was like, huh, I want to see what the center is like, what kind of services they provide. And so that was kind of my thinking or non-thinking behind the decision to go and check them out. [0:08:56] I was just curious why that concerned you, going to see a counselor and...

THERAPIST: Well, it didn't concern me. I just thought it was... I mean, there was some meaning to it, why you'd think someone who's a stranger to you would be more helpful than me.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I didn't understand... I didn't think that they would be helpful if... like I said, it was more out curiosity? And then I did think, this guy has... is really insisting that I go see this person. So maybe he knows a little bit more about these situations than I do. I don't know. The whole thing was weird, and I just didn't know how much of it to expose to other people and how much of it not to, because after (inaudible at 0:09:48) e-mail came, I was little bit... because she'd also tried to psychoanalyze me and stuff. Like, she'd said to Chris, maybe she has a problem with authority figures. Maybe something happened in her childhood, and she's just projecting on... projecting it on my father (chuckling). [0:10:09] And I was a bit weirded out by that, and I was actually... maybe part of me was buying into it. I was like, huh. Maybe... am I blowing this out of proportion? What is the mature way of handling this? What would other women do? Would they just shrug it off and pretend that it never happened and just move on? And I was like, why can't I do that (chuckling)? Why am I so bothered by it?

And then I saw other people participating in it, like, it was bigger than me, you know? Like, I saw Chris was very shaken up. (Exhaling) And then I was telling it to his friends in this place we were staying. [0:10:56] And they were... they had opinions on it. So I had an out-of-body experience almost (chuckling), watching myself tell these people, and they were all... they had concerns (ph), opinions, and thoughts and ideas about what I should do. And I just was like, I don't want to do anything (chuckling). I kept telling that friend, I don't want to do anything. I don't want to see anyone. I just want to forget about it and put it behind me. And he was kind of laying out all the scenarios, like, if this happens, then she'll do this, if that happens she'll do that (exhaling), because at that point...

THERAPIST: She'll... I'm sorry, who's she?

CLIENT: The friend, the woman whose (ph)...

THERAPIST: She'll... but how was she...? She'll do what? Why was she in...?

CLIENT: Well, I don't know. So I told them about the e-mail she sent, and they were all concerned that she might actually come out and harm me in some way, because she sounded very pissed and (inaudible at 0:11:54).

THERAPIST: What did you write her? [0:11:58]

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: What did you say when you wrote her?

CLIENT: Do you want me to show you the exchange?

THERAPIST: You don't... I mean, I'm just wondering what you wrote. I didn't...

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I have... I mean, [in a way there's a] (ph) gigantic hole in my heart. So instead of me... I mean, I've already summarized it to you. But I won't look at it, so (chuckling)... because it's very disturbing to me, but...

THERAPIST: What you wrote?

CLIENT: What she wrote, yeah. So I'm not going to look at it, but (pause) I'll just let you look at it because it's just (chuckling)... (Pause) [0:13:00] (Exhaling) I thought I'd [stop panicking, but I look at her] (ph) and (chuckling)... (Pause) So... (Pause) So this is what I wrote to her. She'd sent an earlier e-mail asking, why did you leave?

THERAPIST: Would you be okay reading it to me?

CLIENT: Oh, sorry (chuckling).

THERAPIST: No, that's okay. You don't have to apologize, I was just... it would make more of an impression on me if you read what you wrote.

CLIENT: Okay. And then I won't (ph) read what she wrote because (inaudible at 0:13:34).

THERAPIST: Whatever you'd like.

CLIENT: So I just said, hello. I feel terrible about leaving suddenly, and I really did want to help your mom with her iPad. I feel worse about that because she'd been so kind to me. My time at your place had been sufficiently productive, and I am grateful to you for opening your apartment to me. I feel I can no longer keep this to myself, so here it is. [0:13:57] Something happened between your father and me which I feel extremely uncomfortable with. It was very inappropriate. After that I did not feel safe or comfortable to stay in his house. Chris had to take an earlier flight and come right away. I don't... I know I'm burdening (ph) you with this ugliness. But none of it was my fault, and I refuse to take responsibility. All I can do is to distance myself from it, try and forget it happened. I will probably fly back to the US. This is very unfortunate. I'm shaken up. But [here it is as it] (ph) seems we are not to tell you why I had to leave all of a sudden. You know I hold you in high regard, so I had to say something. You are more than welcome to stay at our place when you come. I will be visiting my mom, so there will be plenty of space. This is to say that there is nothing weird between Chris and you and me. So... (Pause)

So then she replied, When I... well, I don't know what to make of your... of what you are saying. It does seem weird that you would leave so suddenly and without informing us or saying goodbye or giving anyone any notice at all. [0:15:01] So it seems implausible if not impossible to me that my father would pose any kind of threat to you or your safety. I will discuss with my parents (inaudible at 0:15:11). I was only trying to help you out, and so were my folks. I'm not sure why things would go wrong in this bizarre way. And then I didn't reply to that. And then she wrote this e-mail.

THERAPIST: I see. So that's what you just told her, something about your safety and so...

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you want to read this or not, but (chuckling)...

THERAPIST: I'll read whatever you'd like to share with me...

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Or... yeah, no...

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't want to read it out loud to you.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: (Chuckling) It's very disturbing to me.

THERAPIST: What's disturbing about it?

CLIENT: Well, if you look at it, you'll know. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, I don't understand. I mean, someone could call you a crazy lunatic. That doesn't necessarily... disturbing. [0:15:57] So what's disturbing to you about it?

CLIENT: I don't know. I feel like she's (inaudible at 0:16:02), bashing me. And I don't like that (chuckling). (Pause) It's like trying to reopen old wounds or, in this case, a wound that is not quite old yet (chuckling), because we, I guess, were friendly. So it hurts to lose a friend. And I know people keep saying, she's a bitch, and she's not worth it. But I still... I didn't think any of that. I still thought that... I wanted her to respect me and like me (chuckling). So that is all. So I'll just put it away (chuckling). (Pause) (Exhaling) [0:16:59] Yeah, so I (inaudible at 0:17:07). (Pause) [0:18:00]

Yeah, I'm just... I've been wondering, did I blow this out of proportion, because he is 80, and he is weak, and it wasn't that terrible, or, you know, it could have been worse? So I'm just wondering if I handled it incorrectly, like, if I got too dramatic or... and then I also don't like that people can do this to me. When I feel something strongly, why should I worry about whether it's valid or not or correct or not? It's what I'm feeling. And if you don't like it then you can... you don't have to stay friends with me (chuckling). [0:18:57] I don't know. (Pause) [0:20:00] I just hate that I had to accuse her dad of whatever nasty things I was accusing him of. I don't know. [0:21:02] (Exhaling) I mean, I can quite see the picture without that one thing happening, him being all weak and fragile and watching after me and taking a personal interest in my wellbeing and then saying all those sweet things, but then sometimes saying weird things like, sit on my lap (chuckling), and some of the other things that he said. [0:21:58]

So I don't know. I just feel like women are made to feel like, oh, something's wrong with me. I invited that kind of comment, or I invited that kind of attention. But I couldn't have been more sober, soberly dressed. And I couldn't have been more asexual that whole time in the sense that I was... because of that big age difference between him and... the parents and me. I kind of... I don't know. It's like, why...? And then again (ph), why the hell to I have to analyze his senility, his whatever, (inaudible at 0:22:50) whatever? Why the hell should I have to think about, well, one moment he calls me baby, and then the next moment he's saying other weird things? It's like, it's his problem. [0:23:04] Why should I deal with it? And...

THERAPIST: You chose to stay. That's what's... it's his problem, but you... something was... you chose to stay.

CLIENT: Yeah, and I feel like it was a totally practical concern. Yeah. I mean, I kind of feel like, why should I have to give up something just because of someone else's weirdness? And it wasn't even that actually. So, if I think about it, I guess I chose to ignore it because it was just bizarre, and I was like, whatever, just... I was more dealing with a... I feel like I've had that kind of interaction before, it seems like, where I'm... and not just with children, but mostly adults actually. [0:24:06] They're like, okay, that's nice. You're being nice. Now don't do that. Keep being nice, and that is what I want. Just don't say those weird things because, I mean, that was kind of my mode of interaction. You want to interact with someone, right? And they say certain things that bother you, but they're still... overall you think that that person's worth interacting with. So... or it's just the time, and there's no other option or that there's... you're required to interact with them, for example. So that's kind of what I felt like. [0:24:54] He was always around in the house, and so, if I had to see him, I would be polite and just hope that he wouldn't say weird things, you know (chuckling)? (Pause)

I don't know, I feel like... I don't want to relativize it too much, but it's like, maybe it is a cultural thing. I feel like in Nepal you can't just walk away from people that easily, even people who are kind of strangers. There is so much weirdness or personality, I guess. You just kind of find ways of dealing with that or tolerating it, so... but not stuff that really made me uncomfortable, not like that. [0:26:09] I don't know, maybe I should stop talking about this (chuckling). I guess closure will just come with time, and... but I just want to not feel like I was wrong in my assessment or... yeah. And...

THERAPIST: In your assessment of...?

CLIENT: Well, the situation and the way that I handled it. And everyone that I talked to, they're very supportive, and they're like, yeah, just don't care about her, and she's not a nice person, and none of us liked her anyways (chuckling), and they try to be supportive that way. [0:26:59] Not that I'm seeking them out to say bad things about her, but just... I guess I feel uncertain, and I just... what I seek is more like approval or confidence, which perhaps should come from inside me and not from other people. And it does come from inside me. I keep... I do hear myself saying that it wasn't... you couldn't have handled it any differently. You couldn't have moved... you wouldn't have moved away any sooner than you did because you kept giving him the benefit of the doubt. You kept thinking, oh the things that he's saying usually (ph) is weird stuff. And you're not going to be around him. You're going to try to avoid him.

And then that one moment when he was... took advantage of the situation, you know, his wife wasn't there and this and that. And that was completely wrong, and that was when they were like, okay, no more. [0:27:58] Even if this incident doesn't go any further I'm not going to stay here because I dislike this person now. I have no respect for them. I don't want to be in their house and... because, like Chris said, if I'd stayed on after that point, it would have been like, oh, you know, it's okay. And even if was senile, even if he didn't know what he did, that thing would come back to him, and my leaving would let him know that that was... I did not like that. Even if he doesn't think it's wrong in his universe, I think it is wrong. So, I mean, whether... even if his daughter has completely lashed out at me, they'll remember this. And then they can deal with it, whatever ugliness has happened in their past or with this particular thing. [0:28:55]

Why should I spend so much time and energy thinking about this (chuckling), because I could have moved out earlier. But I chose not to for whatever reasons, selfish reasons or practical reasons or whatever. But still... the fact still remains that he kind of betrayed my trust, and... yeah (chuckling). I mean, yeah, I could say that I gave him the opportunity to betray my trust, but that's just going... pulling hairs apart or something (chuckling). I don't know. (Pause) [0:30:00] (Clearing throat) [0:31:00]

THERAPIST: You don't want to talk anymore?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm just... I just want to get away from it. [0:31:58] But talking about it is not the way (chuckling). (Pause) I guess I want to know how someone else would have handled themselves in that situation. I understand that people would have left early, but what if they didn't? What would you do (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Well, what else do you think they would have done besides left earlier?

CLIENT: If, like me, they chose to ignore those remarks and, like me, they did go downstairs and find themselves alone with the man and he did that to them, what would they do? Would they ignore it or not tell the daughter or...? [0:33:02] (Pause) Did I make it out into a bigger deal than it was, or (chuckling)...? (Pause) [0:34:00] I guess to me the thing wasn't actually just the physical assault of the... what he did. It was more the meaning of it in the sense that... you know, the construction of that narrative, oh, you don't have any friends, and your mom is depressed, and you have no money and no family, and... you know? And me trying to negate all that and say, no, this is not true. [0:35:01] That is not true. It's not that bad.

And then feeling like they are doing something so generous and kind to me, someone who has nothing and has nobody (chuckling). That was what... because I kept saying, I can pay rent, I can pay rent. And they had me pay for the utilities and the maid, so... but I could have even paid the rent. So that's not... I didn't want to stay free of charge. I didn't want to be like, please, burden me under your generosity. I didn't want that to be there. And then just feeling completely abused or misused or disrespected by all the things that he said. [0:35:58] And so you really just don't give a shit about me. You're just pretending to give a shit. I'm nothing but a piece of flesh to you. It's like, just because I don't come from an important family or anything, you can just do this to me. I guess that's what I was more upset by.

And I didn't want to be under his thumb or her thumb any more. And now I feel like, you know what, maybe I constructed that thumb to some extent. It's my perception that they're so above and beyond. But the more I think about it the more I realize it's really harmful for me to think it's all my perception and it's all my doing, because there are certain things that are way above and way beyond me. [0:37:06] These are social constructs. These are histories. People who don't... like, the friend that I was talking to doesn't feel like she is under her thumb and like, oh, so when you go to Nepal where do you stay? She's like, yeah, in these two places. And I'm like, do you have friends, family there? And she said, yeah, I have family. So it's like, there's a reason why you don't feel pressured by these people because you have your own material things. You have a network. You are... you have all those things that I really don't have (chuckling). It's not like these are things that are my perception. These are actual things that are there and not there. So it's well and good for me to understand that most of it is not my doing, and these are actual material facts that I have to accept. [0:38:07] And after accepting that I have to realize there is certain potential in me, and there's... that I need to work on to get things that I want. And people who have more than me, there's a reason why they do have things.

So maybe in that sense my perception can take this into account and not feel like, oh, she's so great perhaps because of certain personal achievements but also because of the head start that she's got because of her family, because of money and stuff, because of their social positions. So really there is no point in feeling bad about it and comparing. [0:38:59] If anything, maybe I should be emboldened by the truth of things, the history of things. Yeah (chuckling). I don't know. (Pause) Maybe some people are able to do that and others maybe not so much. But I just feel weakened by this knowledge, and I don't want to be weakened any more (chuckling).

THERAPIST: By the knowledge that people have things you don't have?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, so their grandfather worked hard or inherited more than my grandfather. And so... and similarly with their moms and dads and my mom and dad. I mean, it's all generational and all. [0:40:04] But I feel weakened by that for some reason. And I want to change that. It's very tiring to keep going and looking at everyone's... or thinking about everyone's houses and bank balances (laughing), reducing people I really like to just that and feeling (pause) like I have less or I matter less because of that. Why does that have to be important? I just wish I could... I guess when I feel really insecure I start thinking this way (chuckling). I stay in this pit for a while (chuckling), and it's hard to pull myself out once I start thinking this way, once I start looking at what people have. [0:41:03]

THERAPIST: Well, it makes you envious.

CLIENT: Is it envy? You think it's envy?

THERAPIST: Jealousy?

CLIENT: It's more like fear.

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: Of not mattering, of not amounting to much, and of constantly feeling like this (chuckling), and of this being the biggest hindrance in getting anywhere, my own feeling of inadequacy or... (Pause) What I felt after this happened was, if I had family place to stay, this wouldn't have happened. I would be legitimate in that house, and I would be welcome. [0:42:01] (Chuckling) People are like, no, that's not true. Women get... attract unwanted attention anywhere, everywhere, so...

THERAPIST: Yeah, but you know you were there because you didn't have that to go to in your own family.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. What do I do with this goddamn (inaudible at 042:22). (Chuckling) Just... it doesn't go anywhere. It just sits there. I want it to be... either get out of my way so I can do my stuff, or resolve and become something that I can run with or leave or something (chuckling). It just has not shifted, changed. I just feel like pushing everyone away when I think this way, because everyone I tell it to, I'm thinking, oh, what kind of place do they have in Nepal, like (inaudible at 0:42:55)? [0:42:57] Do they have a place (chuckling)? And that makes me mad. It makes me want to do a lot of crazy things (laughing). But ultimately it only harms me, so...

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: Well, pushing people away and (pause) pushing things away that I care about and being destructive emotionally and... yeah. (Pause) I just want to find someone like myself, someone in my economic condition or someone who's had a disastrous past like me (laughing), you know? [0:44:00] And there just doesn't seem to be anyone like that. So... and it's funny because I'm saying this because... I mean, I'm really insane, because there are so many people much worse off than me everywhere. (Pause) I just am not part of their circle and their world, but they're out there. So...

THERAPIST: You don't seek them out.

CLIENT: Yeah. I should, shouldn't I?

THERAPIST: I don't know what you should do (chuckling).

CLIENT: (Laughing)

THERAPIST: That was more of a statement of fact.

CLIENT: Yeah. I seek out stable people, right? And then they become brick walls, and I can just smash my head against them (laughing). I don't know. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Why do you think you need to smash your head? [0:44:59]

CLIENT: Because I feel angry and... yeah. (Pause) (Exhaling) Oh well, anger is not productive. I mean it can be, but... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Cecelia (sp?), we need to stop for today, okay?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: All right. 10:15 is it?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Yes. Very good.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Take care. Thank you.

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