TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(No activity 00:00:00 to 00:02:10) (door opens)

CLIENT: It's been a while! (chuckles) I guess I was a little busy last week or so because I was looking for, like a second job. (chuckles) I don't know why. Well, I know why, but... yeah. I had a couple of interviews with like a staffing place and you know, to find me a jobs and stuff. Then independently, I had one on Monday morning.

I was quite tempted to take the one that I interviewed for on Monday, just because like, I could see myself... First of all, it was like Mondays and Wednesdays only, so it was just two days a week and then I could see myself doing something that would make me feel really good about my skills, you know, and just would be appreciated because it would be like design work and stuff. [00:03:25]

(pause) Another one had advertised at a much lower rate and then after she met me, she was like, she was willing to, you know, give me $5.00 more an hour, just because she thought I, you know, because I was over-qualified and all that. But, so then, yeah, that feels good that she was willing to do that and I... Yeah.

(pause) I just thought that it would bring me a lot of confidence and money (chuckles), a little bit of, you know, extra cash. Well, both my professors (and I also) spent a day thinking about it and I don't think it's a good idea right now. (chuckles) Because it would take away two whole days of writing and right now, I just feel like I have to like shift to a higher gear and really go at it, you know? Because I'm going to do another workshop outside of school, at this place. So it's kind of... Yeah, so it will be like a lot of writing, so I feel like I shouldn't distract myself, just try to be (inaudible) and try to not get distracted. [00:05:06]

I don't know. But it's you know, it's tough to say no to money and I keep getting confused, because I'm like, "Well, maybe feeling good about my, you know, design skills will make me positive and help me write." (chuckles). It's always like over-thinking, so... But I have to say no to that person, so... (pause) What do you think? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: About what?

CLIENT: Should I take the job or no?

THERAPIST: You want my advice?

CLIENT: Sure, yeah.

THERAPIST: How could I help (ph) with anything?

CLIENT: Why not? I mean, you know... I mean, you don't have to have... I mean it's not advice, it could be opinion.

THERAPIST: But that would assume I would know something about what would be good.

CLIENT: Well, I just told you (chuckles).

THERAPIST: What would my opinion be based on?

CLIENT: What I told you. [00:06:03]

THERAPIST: Well, what you told me is you are confused. (client affirms) Okay. So my opinion is, you're confused!

CLIENT: That's my opinion.

THERAPIST: Well my opinion is that you're confused.

CLIENT: (chuckles) You're just taking my opinion.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no I'm serious. I don't know what you're asking. What do you think you're asking?

CLIENT: What do you think? Should I take the job or not?

THERAPIST: (pause) I don't... How would I know that? How would I have an opinion on that?

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know. Both of my teachers did. They were both like, "No, don't do it!" (chuckles)

THERAPIST: They don't have to buy food! Are they buying you food?

CLIENT: Well, but they are, you know, they've been writers for a long time. This professor, he was like, you know, "I was very poor, poor for a long time. I bounced checks at grocery stores, so, you know, if you're asking, that means you have a choice, and so, you know, if you have a choice, then I would recommend not doing it. If you need the money, of course; go ahead, but if you don't, then don't do it." (chuckles) [00:07:17]

THERAPIST: That sounds like a balanced opinion.

CLIENT: Yeah. So... Like, for me it's just like a little, because my mom just got a job at a grocery store and like a few years ago, that would just totally like be... Well not a few years ago, even a few months ago, that would make me feel so guilty, that I was just sitting around on my ass, while she was working hard. But I'm hoping that I can see it in a positive light, that, "Hey, it's a job and every job is good," you know? Well, obviously... you know, in the market, not every job is equal (chuckles), but every job ought to be respected. So it shouldn't be like, "Oh, no! She's working at a grocery store!" It shouldn't be all like depressing and negative and guilt-inducing; it should be uplifting and positive, that hey you know, she's taking care of herself, she's meeting her rent and you know, she's somewhat, most of it (chuckles). [00:08:28]

THERAPIST: Can't it be both?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Both those views?

CLIENT: Not right now. I don't want to see it in a negative light. I've had negativity, I have so much negativity that I would like for a lot of positivity to just like... and then I can reach a balance, maybe later?

THERAPIST: But where's reality then?

CLIENT: (pause) It has to take a hike right now (chuckles). I know. I just, I live in a fantasy world. A lot of things are going wrong because of that. But I mean, it would be... I mean, it's there. I just am not making me feel bad about it. I mean, I'm concerned about her wellbeing, obviously and you know, standing for so many hours and I keep asking her, you know, "Are you okay?" You know, this and that. [00:09:33]

Yeah, so... And you have to, like when you're doing something as ridiculous as writing (chuckles), you know, it's always, you have to create bubbles, you have to kind of shut out reality for a bit, or either modify it. I don't know. That's what I think. We'll see. But, yeah, I think I should say no and, we'll see. (inaudible) gotten paid in three months and I'm just like, really? Does it look like, I don't like this!

THERAPIST: Paid, (inaudible), you mean this...

CLIENT: School, yeah, school only pays for like, gives me a paycheck nine months, nothing in the summer. [00:10:27]

THERAPIST: I see. What do you live off of?

CLIENT: Well, I didn't, I'm not paying rent, well I just paid for my, I found a place in Inman Square.

THERAPIST: Are you going to take it?

CLIENT: Yeah, I took it. I signed the lease. I was already living there (chuckles). Didn't I tell you that I found it?

THERAPIST: You told me you found a place, but you were not sure about whether to take it. (client affirms) That was last week.

CLIENT: Yeah, so last week itself, that same day, that evening, I signed the lease. (therapist affirms) You know, it's like three months of rent and so that, I guess I paid through my savings, but... I'm like, hopefully in a few days I'll get, I'll start getting paid from school. (sighs) But, yeah so I wasn't paying rent until now. I guess I was paying my mom's rent, and I was getting, before the summer, when I was getting paid. Then I don't pay Chris (ph). [00:11:32]

(pause) I have, I'm moving, I'm going to move today itself now because Chris (sp) and I are not (chuckles) at all like, in a good place, we're not talking, because of my own foolishness. I'm just like so weirder out. Well, not weirded out enough, I guess. I'm just like, coming from a family like I do, you know, with my dad, you know, sleeping around with everyone. Shouldn't I be like petrified of that whole thing? Shouldn't I like hate cheaters and like be completely faithful and all? Why am I like that? Why am I a cheater, you know? Why did I turn, I feel, turn into my dad, you know? Why has that happened? I don't like it.

(pause) I mean, Chris has been nothing but overly kind, overly generous, overly forgiving. Why don't I appreciate that, you know? (pause) I mean, things are okay, kind of, you know whatever, and he's busy. Then yesterday morning, I said some things, so stupid. Now it's just like, now he won't talk to me. [00:13:09]

THERAPIST: What did you say?

CLIENT: (chuckles) (under breath) So stupid! (regular voice) I don't know. Playing this classical music and then, and like understanding classical music and he... I don't know, I was just saying in the morning (I had just woken up), and I was saying something like, "I love this guy, but some of his like, (inaudible) write night songs I don't like, or you know, I'm getting over it because, you know, your friend used to put it on and then have his way with me."

I don't know what (chuckles) it is. I could have slapped myself for saying that to Chris, you know? Just how stupid do you have to be to say something like that? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Angry. You're angry?

CLIENT: No. It was like stupid, that filter. I should have bit my tongue instead of saying something like that, you know? (pause) (chuckles) So... Just before leaving this morning, he was like... "What are we doing? You know, like, you want...?" I'm like, "You know, why don't you talk to me?" He was like, "Well, you want to make things okay with me, so you can go and date other guys." I'm like, "Well, he's pretty right." (chuckles) [00:14:41]

But then I'm also like, this angry child in me is like, "Oh, so, last weekend or whatever, two weekends ago, when you were all like, you know, hugging me and being my friend and you're having drinks, you were all like, (sighs) 'Yeah, go ahead. Take care of yourself, you know. Go on a dating site and have fun, but be careful, you know.' But what was all that about, you know? You were just saying that because you were maybe a little horny and you wanted to have sex later, you know?" (chuckles)

(pause) I don't... I'm just like, I know I made this mess and I wish I could clean it up, or understand it or figure out what exactly I want. (pause) [00:15:40]

THERAPIST: I feel like when you say these things, you not only degrade Chris, that you degrade yourself. It's like this act of self-degradation.

CLIENT: (pause) I feel like the whole thing is degraded or depraved or something.

THERAPIST: How do you mean, the whole thing?

CLIENT: This whole idea of, you know, love or whatever, you know? (pause) I don't understand it. It just baffles me that... I could love Chris and do anything for him, but then also at the same time, feel that I intensely have loved his friend, you know? In a very different, and physical way. I mean, I feel like that is what it is and I feel, you know, ashamed and embarrassed (chuckles), but... So I feel that's degraded, it's a depraved situation. (pause) I don't understand it. What would have made it not so depraved? Like, loving Chris in that physical way and not his friend? [00:17:28]

THERAPIST: No, I'm saying even just that statement. Like I feel that statement is beneath you.

CLIENT: Beneath me? What do you mean?

THERAPIST: To make a statement like that. It doesn't, it's not a dignified statement.

CLIENT: What state/stops/... Oh, what I said to Chris?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's not a statement that comes from a place of dignity.

CLIENT: No, it didn't. I felt, I guess I felt angry, well... I guess the way that I said it made, maybe I was trying to say that, you know, your, you know, friend was horrible (chuckles), you know? I guess that's what I meant, that, you know, on such a beautiful piece of music, and he kind of ruined it for me. At that time, I thought, "My God, this was like, this elevates it beyond, you know, even the singer's imagination and so, you know, beautiful." At that time, I thought so; but now that, you know, it's like I have Chris's friend's face in front of me, you know, and it really, it's like... yeah. It's depraved and degrading. The same exact thing, the same experience, the same music, you know? [00:18:44]

I mean, I guess that's what, you know, love is, you know, when it's good, it's beautiful and when it's bad, it's the ugliest thing. I'm just, not ugly, it's painful. When Chris is not there, the same piece of music is just painful. I mean, it's still beautiful, but it's painful. (pause) I don't understand the, what exactly I want from Chris and what I don't want from him, what's right and what's wrong. (sighs) I'm sure I know what's right or what's wrong, but I'm just using it for my own convenient purposes (chuckles). [00:19:45]

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: (pause) Well, what's right is to be committed to one guy, you know? What's right is... Okay, even beyond that. What's right is to take responsibility for what I've done and what I do, and to understand what hurts him, and not do that. That's, you know, right. And I don't know where these fucking statements come from, but they're totally wrong, you know? Totally... I shouldn't be saying those things, I shouldn't be hurting him. (pause) It's funny like, because he's the last person I want to hurt, but I hurt him the most (chuckles). [00:20:41]

THERAPIST: (pause) I guess, I think about it as, he gets the brunt of the feelings you have both towards your mother and your father.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Uh-hmm. They get displaced. Not only. You also have feelings about him that are negative also.

CLIENT: Yeah. What feelings for my dad get transferred to him?

THERAPIST: I don't know. What do you think?

CLIENT: I don't know. Need for care? I don't know. Need for life. Affection? Or... like platonic affection, I guess? But (inaudible) every like, adult relationship must have, right? I don't know.

[pause 00:21:56 to 00:22:26]

THERAPIST: I feel like part of why you do the hurtful things to Chris is that somehow you feel like he should be giving you what he's not, and so you'll get it elsewhere. Like, he's not meeting a certain set of expectations, that that gives you permission to get it elsewhere, you know, as if he's falling short of expectations.

CLIENT: You mean, like sex?

THERAPIST: Not only that. I mean that maybe, but in a lot of ways. The passion, the emotional understanding... (pause) You can feel quite deprived by him.

CLIENT: That used to be the case, yeah. I feel like I've changed, my interaction with him has changed.

THERAPIST: So you feel less so that way? [00:23:17]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's funny like, when you said emotional? For some reason, I just want to say, "No, no, no, I don't want that!" (chuckles) It's just weird.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) him, or in general?

CLIENT: In general, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is weird.

CLIENT: I'm probably lying... to myself, but it feels like I want to say, "No, I don't want emotional support." How can that be? (chuckles) (pause) I don't' know. (pause) I feel like I understand somehow (and not just like cerebrally understand but like, experientially understand) that, what I can get from Chris is, you know, companionship, intellectual stimulation (sighs) and you know, trust and faithfulness and just you know, that whole thing, the life that we have. (pause) And I know I cannot get passion and you know, excitement and... from him. I mean, I get somewhat of an emotional support from him in the sense that, you know... just the fact that he's there every day is, I'm learning to see that it is emotional support, you know? [00:24:58]

THERAPIST: But he's not there every day now.

CLIENT: Well, he won't be from now on, yeah. But the fact that he's there is what it is. I mean, I could be feeling insecure, I'll be like, "I'm so insecure, oh, this is..." You know, hopping all over the place. He's not going to say anything, he's not going to... He might, you know, depending. He might say, you know, "It's okay. You know, every writer goes through this," and la la. So he could do that. But you know, he also probably won't entertain... that too much, you know?

Plus I have like other women that I can talk to now. But... (pause) It's also like what he gives has also like, been poisoned, I feel. Maybe back (ph) my head, but probably what I'll say in my head itself. (pause) It's just a constant comparison that I keep making between him and me. (chuckles) (pause) It's weird, I feel like I have this need to like, chart my own path, feel like that gives me strength. [00:27:00]

Like the, my childhood memory that, the time that I remember feeling most alive was when my mom had left my dad. Like, there was a period when they, we were all living together in one place and something had happened; I guess they fought or she must have found out about one of his affairs. She packed her bag and my clothes and her clothes and like toothbrushes and we went back to this place where I was born and where she was born. No one used to live there, but it was a different house in the same city. I just remember that clearly, like waking up and brushing my teeth and like looking to her. She seemed so strong and that she could do anything, and like we'd be totally fine. I'd go to school and come back and, you know, she'd be there and... [00:28:00]

I don't know, I just felt very... energized and positive. (chuckles) So my tendency is always to think like that, like in the back of my head that is my model for... yeah, striking out on your own and that's why I feel like I can never get married. (chuckles) Because of that one image! It's like, dependence on a man, you know, I don't know...

THERAPIST: How it was a degraded dependence.

CLIENT: Why was it degraded, how is that degraded?

THERAPIST: The way your dad treated her?

CLIENT: Well that's, well, his doing doesn't degrade her! (pause) I don't' think it's degraded her. I think it's quite bold. There is a sadness to it, but I wouldn't call it degraded. [00:29:02]

THERAPIST: To stay with a man who treats you so badly?

CLIENT: No, I'm saying to leave the man.

THERAPIST: Yes. No, no, I'm saying, I guess what I was confused then. I agree with you. You're saying it wasn't as dependent, but you were saying that it's bold to leave that dependence, and I said, "Well, it's bold to leave a degraded dependence, not inter-dependence." (client affirms) You were saying, well, that's why you think about, you know, that it's been hard for you to imagine getting married, but it's only under the condition that your mother was married.

CLIENT: What condition?

THERAPIST: That your dependence for that person would be a degraded dependence and not just an inter-dependence. (client affirms) You're sort of just lumping them in one category.

CLIENT: (chuckles) But I want that. I want that moment, over and over again. I want to repeat it.

THERAPIST: Do you think that's what you're repeating with Chris?

CLIENT: Maybe. Yeah.

THERAPIST: What did that moment feel like? [00:30:03]

CLIENT: When I was... a child? (therapist affirms) Liberating! I mean... like jittery, almost, you know? Like anything was possible, like the sky was... I could see the sky, you know, from my old house, apartment. There is no one cursing me, beating me, you know, putting me down (chuckles). I was comforted. My mom was right there and she was this woman who could walk out and do anything. She made a little fridge (chuckles) out of... yeah. She made a little fridge! Out of grass and water and metal... Because there was no electricity there. [00:31:01]

(pause) I always want to be that powerful. Maybe not always... (chuckles) But, you know, I'll keep re-living that. (pause) I mean it hurts me to know that I've hurt Chris, but (sighs)... (pause) but I want to depend on him and I don't want to. (pause) Yeah. I don't want any of the things that that woman said to be true (chuckles), you know. (pause) I want my own kind of identity and I want to be known as who I am, and not like, Chris's girlfriend or something. [00:32:25]

(pause) He's too much, you know? Like... who does that? Do you know of anyone else who has two PhDs? (pause) How can you not compare, you know? Standing next to him, obviously I'm going to compare.

THERAPIST: (pause) Why is it obvious?

CLIENT: I don't know, it's obvious to me (chuckles). It was totally, well, maybe it was not totally, (chuckles) but it seemed fine when he was a student, you know? And I was working. It was very bad, because I wanted to write and not work, but if we had, and we did, like for a year, when I was at MSU, I was a student and he was a student. I felt equal. (pause) Now I'm a student and he's a (chuckles) professor.

THERAPIST: What's funny about that? [00:33:52]

CLIENT: It's like totally like that! It's not easy being with a man like that. A lot of couples have this issue.

THERAPIST: (pause) What issue?

CLIENT: The issue of inequality like, you know, like such things as corporate wives and maybe there are such things as academic wives and, wives of sportsmen and...

THERAPIST: And what's the inequality? What part of it is unequal?

CLIENT: Well, he's a celebrity and she's like a stay-at-home whatever, mom or housewife. Like he shines, but she doesn't shine... in the same way, in the same kind of milieu (ph) or platform. (pause) I don't think that's right (chuckles). [00:35:02]

THERAPIST: Sorry?

CLIENT: I don't think that's right!

THERAPIST: You don't think what's right?

CLIENT: This inequality.

THERAPIST: I'm not sure what that means. A person gave up their job, then? Like, what do you...? Why do you say it's not right?

CLIENT: They should be both equally brilliant people.

THERAPIST: How do you know the stay-at-home wife isn't brilliant?

CLIENT: (pause) Well, I mean, obviously then you can say that, but you know, like she's brilliant in what she does or that...

THERAPIST: What if she was professionally brilliant, but she decided to raise kids? (client affirms) Is she lesser? (client affirms) So she's lesser because she's lesser in the eyes of other people? And that's what matters? [00:36:08]

CLIENT: She's probably lesser in the eyes of her husband, which is really bad. And her own eyes, which is the worst.

THERAPIST: Would she feel lesser then because of the choices she made?

CLIENT: Or maybe she didn't have a choice.

THERAPIST: She was forced to? (client affirms) By whom?

CLIENT: I don't know, by society... parents...

THERAPIST: Society doesn't allow two people to go to work?

CLIENT: (sighs) Um... it does, but... I guess the choices for women are kind of, for some women it could be more restricted, I guess.

[pause 00:36:54 to 00:37:35]

Well, when I'm doing my work and you know, he's doing his and we talk, it seems fine. I absolutely don't mind that he knows so much more, and I learn so much when he speaks, you know, when we're discussing something. I actually love that, you know? I mean, when we're cooking and you know, like he always appreciates my cooking, you know? So I feel like, "Hey I could do a few things that he cannot," you know? Care of the house, you know.

But when it comes... As soon as we start letting in other people, I just absolutely freak out. Like, go crazy! (chuckles) Because they're mostly his friends. And obviously they look up to him so much more. (pause) The larger society looks up to him so much more because he has so many things to say. And I shouldn't just say society, I mean like, academics and people who like academics. [00:38:58]

(pause) But if I'm hanging out with my friends, you know, if we're hanging out with my friends, it's a totally like, a complete wall, you know. Because he cannot... because he's analytical and he's standing in one corner, like having a miserable time (chuckles). Because he's not emotional or fun or, you know... so... That gets to me, I guess.

(pause) What's important to him, I know, is work, you know. That's it. So I feel like, "Why am I bothering him?" You know? I should just realize that it's... only going to work under these conditions that (sighs) you know, we can... stay together and be you know like, we're going to have children and you know have a decent home; but yet our engagement, our attraction is going to be very cerebral and it's going to be about work, which is, you know, fine. But I have to curb my enthusiasm, I have to kind of build a very, very thick skin for when his friends come over and hang out with my friends outside, you know? Or not have my, not have friends of my own, cultivate more friends who are slightly more intellectual and let go of people who are like, you know, who are not... um... and... [00:41:18]

And yet, and become like a nerd, basically, you know? Like... become that. I feel like I'm at a point where I could be a lot of things, but to make things work with Chris, I have to change and like go towards him, like and his... what will, you know, work out well with his personality. And I've done that, and I could do that, if that, if he's that important to me. But then you know like, when I'm insecure and this and that, when I'm in the rebellious mood, I'm like, "Why do I, why do I want to do that? Why don't I like slice off pieces of myself and my personality? Let me chart my own path, let me find people who work well and the way I already am," you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, I think in the end, you're rebelling against your own mind. (client responds) It feels very much like an external struggle, but I think it's an internal struggle. [00:42:28]

CLIENT: Yeah. How do you mean like, rebelling against my own mind?

THERAPIST: In terms of what the expectations are, what you think other people's expectations of themselves are, and what the expectations are of you. People have expectations, but they're probably very different kinds of expectations than you have. (client affirms) People can think of intellectuals as people who don't know much about the world, and they're not very bright. That's certainly an opinion some people hold. It depends on your vantage point. (pause) But there is a very strict hierarchy in your mind.

CLIENT: Of what?

THERAPIST: Of just sort of intelligent people and better, higher status people on down.

CLIENT: (raises voice) It's his thing! He put it in my head ten years ago! He said Eleanor Roosevelt said something like that, that people who talk about other people, and they're the lowest. The people who talk about... shit, I forget the middle (chuckles)! Something like... and then there are people who talk about ideas, and these are the greatest.

THERAPIST: People who have a spouse, they don't believe, they don't agree with what their spouse says all the time! So what if Chris thinks (inaudible).

CLIENT: (whining) I'm not there yet, I can't be that strong with him! [00:44:08]

THERAPIST: See, I don't think it's a matter of strength. I think it's a matter of your actually having the same values as him. It's not like you're having to contort to his values; they're already there.

CLIENT: Meaning?

THERAPIST: That's what I mean! He's not offering you this hierarchy that feels very alien, but you're forcing yourself to be different. You feel the same way he does, and that's... so...

CLIENT: So then we should work out perfectly, right?

THERAPIST: You might!

CLIENT: If I like?

THERAPIST: If you'd like to, it's up to you!

CLIENT: Then why am I rebelling against myself?

THERAPIST: That's a great question!

CLIENT: (chuckles) (pause) (sigh) (pause) I don't know. [00:45:12]

THERAPIST: Maybe it's even scarier to think that people don't have an opinion.

CLIENT: Yeah. In what context do you mean that?

THERAPIST: I don't know. I was just, I didn't, I mean, I didn't say it with a particular idea in mind. It was just kind of... sort of a "toss it out and see where it goes," but like even the woman who has a position or an academic who decides to stay at home, and you were saying, "Well, she's less than." I think a lot of people just don't care!

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, that scarier, obviously.

THERAPIST: Like, whether you work or not, I don't care! (client chuckles) I mean, I care that you're happy, and I care that you're doing what... whether you do that or not, I don't care! It's your life! It has nothing to... that decision has nothing to do with me. (client affirms) (pause) It should matter a lot to you, because it's your life. (client affirms) And it seems like the weight of that responsibility is just so much sometimes.

CLIENT: My own life?

THERAPIST: Yeah. That people might have opinions that may or may not be relevant, and then some people, they have no opinions.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I can, I can hear that (chuckles). People have opinions. They have preferences. [00:46:47]

THERAPIST: Oh, preferences, sure! For themselves! (client affirms) Sure!

CLIENT: Let's go with that. People have preferences. Everyone has preferences! They will always make decisions on who to hang out with, people to talk with.

THERAPIST: Sure. (pause) But you crave (ph) for the sense of right and wrong, and better and worse and this particular kind of structuring. And you're always appealing to that structuring, and when it's not there, you try to do things to put it there.

CLIENT: (pause) This is too abstract! (chuckles) I don't know what...

THERAPIST: The structure of who's better or smarter or who has a better life or who's at a higher status or you know... these sorts of structurings, you know, status and what's good, like as if they're objective measures. [00:47:47]

CLIENT: How else do you understand the world and people?

THERAPIST: People have different values that can be quite unrelated to each other.

CLIENT: That's why I feel totally alienated if I cannot see them through my eyes and my understanding.

THERAPIST: You can't see others?

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel alienated like, it would make, I would like for things to make sense.

THERAPIST: Hmm!

CLIENT: I'm lost! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know, I got a little bit lost, too. We're going to need to stop, but, will you be able to come to that Friday session?

CLIENT: Friday? At what time?

THERAPIST: It was 10:15. (client confirms) Oh, yeah, no, it was originally was 10:15. Actually, I think it was 10:20. 10:20! (client confirms) I mean, does that work? (client affirms) I'll see you then on Friday.

CLIENT: Okay, see you. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure!

CLIENT: I have a...

THERAPIST: Okay! Take care! Bye bye!

CLIENT: Bye! (door closes)

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