TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in!

CLIENT: How are you doing?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you!

CLIENT: I think the, what, some of the stuff you said last time, like... a lot of stuff. (pause) I think it's been a useful week, looking at things like my deliverance (ph). He said, (inaudible) just fighting with myself. It's very tiring, so... (chuckles) I guess, I think that's what I've been trying to kind of articulate, in the sense that, you know, being caught between two cultures and two ways of living. That just means, to me, entirely too different sets of things that I ought to aspire to; not to make it very, you know, larger than myself or political or anything, but... I don't know; like, how do I... Well, maybe, I mean, if I do make it larger than myself, then at least make it slightly, I think easier to deal with, because then I can say a lot of other people deal with this, you know, people who straddle two cultures and I can think about how they deal with it. [00:02:02]

THERAPIST: What... In terms of what I talked about, how do you see that as cultural? I'm not sure I follow.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I think when you said... I think it was in the context of, like comparing... not comparing, but like Chris (sp) being a certain way and me not wanting to be that way. I think you said, "Well, you are that way, and you're fighting with yourself, ultimately." So. I'll take another job somewhere, I think. (chuckles) Yeah, so it's like, these have become your standards, even though you don't think they are, or, so that's what my struggle is. They are my standards, but I don't want them to be, so it's kind of that perpetual struggle. I guess I'm just... completely extrapolating from that, because that is dead and that just kind of struggle, internal struggle and conflict was there in like other areas, too, you know. [00:03:13]

Like, in terms of being with one person, with whoever he'd been with for seven years. It's like, you know... I guess in my, in the Nepalese cultural context, it would just be, you know, of arranged marriage, that you don't give that up, you know? You make it work, you... (sighs) you know, you live with it and you try to find sources of joy, unless, but if it's really terrible. I mean, I'm not saying there is no such thing as divorce in Nepal; there is, obviously. My mom was divorced, you know. (chuckles) I know quite a few older couples who are, but... So there is that. But then, you know, the understanding of arranged marriage is you don't break it. You know, it's just, you know, never know what kind of person you are going to get. So you live with it. So in that sense, even if you don't actually get into an arrangement, you approach relationships like that, you as in people who are from Nepal, even if they've left Nepal. [00:04:28]

I feel like that is who I am, partly. (chuckles) But since I've been here (inaudible) (blocked) so long, I also have this American side that is like, "Oh, I don't want to attach to one person or like..." So in that sense, there are at least two reasons I have this kind of constant, increasing battle. So the one side, I see myself committing to Chris. In a way, I already have, you know? I have, last year; and going forward, I feel like I could. I mean... But I think that was kind of my proposal to him also, that, you know, "Yeah, sure, I will marry you and have children with you, but our, you know, sex life will not be, you know, crackling or whatever. It won't be, you know, it will be bad (chuckles). Basically, that's what I said; kind of painted a much worse picture than it actually might be, but I guess that is how I thought of it as. I don't know, you know, commitment or arranged marriage inspired by like, Nepalese culture. But then his response was kind of... I don't know whether it was Nepalese, maybe it was American. I'm not quite sure, but his response was, "No, that's not acceptable, you know! We should both be with people who really want to be with us." [00:06:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess a few things. I mean, if this were about sort of two different cultures, you'd be married to him.

CLIENT: That's what I'm trying to tell you. I am, in a way.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: In thought, you know? Although maybe not in other ways, I'm seeing other people, but... that's what I'm trying to say. Like, there are these (chuckles)... Last night I was saying, "Maybe I'm schizophrenic!" (chuckles) Chris was like, "You should ask her if you're bipolar!" (chuckles) I guess all of us have multiple personalities, it's just some of us (like me, and some others), are like much worse, they can really take it to that extreme. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It's a really, I mean I don't see it... I wasn't thinking about it in terms of culture, because I was thinking about it much more specific to you, (client affirms) your ties to Chris not simply as someone whom you're tied to as a general way, but the particulars about who he is and what he represents to you personally (as much as sort of less than an attachment to him as sort of someone who was somehow arranged). You know, that's who you're supposed to... Do you know what I mean? (client affirms) But there are very particulars about him and who he is that causes conflict. [00:07:26]

CLIENT: Maybe I should, I don't know what to think. Maybe I should give up that whole like larger narrative of culture and stick to the specifics. Maybe that will be more helpful. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: And I guess I just don't, I mean, I... Yeah, I guess I don't quite fit that paradigm in, but, you know...

CLIENT: Yeah, well you're, I see that. I mean... I think Chris worries... (pause) I don't know, I just went with this train of thought that I felt maybe there might be some answers. (chuckles) Well, I just said that because I've, at times, thought that when I've been kind of disappointed or dissatisfied, I'm just like, "Oh, well. I can't really do anything about that. I can't really break up." This was like much earlier. I'd just think, you know, "This is like an arranged marriage, you know? It's like he's the one that's been chosen for me, so..." [00:08:37]

THERAPIST: By whom?

CLIENT: By me, but (chuckles), but still it's like I feel like forces larger than myself.

THERAPIST: Like what kind of forces?

CLIENT: Um... Forces such as my parents, who, because of their behavior have made me the way that I am, that I seek, you know, whatever it is that Chris provides (chuckles). That was really a stretch! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It is, because your parents are, based on their particular characteristics and not initially a function of them having an arranged marriage.

CLIENT: (inaudible) (chuckles) But it could be because of the arranged marriage, you know, because they might have felt stuck, too. [00:09:27]

THERAPIST: Well, your mother certainly did. (client affirms) Maybe your father, too, I guess. (client affirms) That's certainly true.

CLIENT: It's, it's so... is there logic? (ph)

THERAPIST: (pause) Do you feel it's important to you to put it in a larger narrative? (client affirms) Why?

CLIENT: Um... if I don't, I feel really isolated and I, the larger narrative makes me feel like I'm not alone; it's happened to other people, so it makes me feel a whole lot better to, I'm not, you know, make (ph) a complete weirdo I guess out there. It makes me feel connected and like, you know... yeah. It's empowering, to some extent. I don't know. I guess, like, you know, there are other things to worry about, you know. It's okay. (chuckles) [00:10:30]

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: Um... (pause) I don't know. I just feel like we're affecting (ph) that way that I feel like we're all embedded in some larger phenomenon, like the larger problem with, you know, in society like, you know, patriarchy or something like that. Then it makes me feel less specifically angry with a specific person.

I was talking to my, who is I think I'm finding my mentor, this woman with whom they started this, you know, women's group, reading group or whatever. She was like, "You know, this is..." She's always connecting things with the larger picture and she's like, "You know, it's the fault of patriarchy that, you know, like..." For example, I was telling her, you know, why I just feel so unequal next to Chris. "You know, it's the fault of patriarchy, it's not your doing." [00:11:35]

THERAPIST: I just, I think that just perpetuates a victim's narrative. I really, I really do. I do. I want, I do. I also want to appreciate what you're talking about, in terms of being part of a larger, you know, community or something and then feelings of isolation you feel. (client affirms) But I actually don't think it's helpful to think about, "Oh, this is not about you. This is about some larger cultural phenomenon." I actually think it gets away from... Not to say that there aren't elements of patriarchy; I'm not trying to dismiss that, but I actually don't think it's psychologically helpful to you.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. But I could see that.

THERAPIST: Because I almost think, I think what happens in some of these communities is that the individuals are used for a larger narrative. You're just part of making a political point, which I'm actually thinking sometimes can be quite destructive. [00:12:35]

CLIENT: Well, no. I mean it's not, she didn't really tell me to, you know, do anything or you know, feel any way, but you know, it's more like, "How do you understand this phenomenon?" How do you understand it? Like, whatever Chris says is considered more important. You know, like, his field, his field of work is considered more important than, say, me putting together a beautiful, delicious dinner, you know? I mean, that, as, you could say that is a result of patriarchy.

THERAPIST: (sighs) Maybe, but... I mean, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but then, how you solve it doesn't seem like that's a good way to solve it.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly, that's what I'm saying. Like, that's... I think she would agree with you, like, I think all of us feel that way, that we need... I feel that way, that while I understand the historical processes that have led us where we are, I think we need negative (ph) (inaudible), you know, ways of finding the solution and one big way is, you know, psychological because we are such evolved brains (chuckles). So, you know... [00:13:53]

THERAPIST: I don't mean to dismiss what you're saying.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know, I mean, I don't take it that way, because I know how important my community is to me. (chuckles) Or, I'm not, I still lead a very isolated life because of, you know, I write most of the time, so... But I try, I'm trying to cultivate relationships that, you know, we don't just sit around bashing men, but you know, we just, we celebrate, you know, birthdays and we do things that make us happy. But yeah, you're right. The solution to a very specific way that I feel, for example, I feel... you know that I can't compare to Chris; that is obviously a deep psychological issue that I need to work through. (sighs) [00:14:52]

Yeah, I mean, it's, that's what it is. I mean, these two, three or four specific things that on the one hand I find him so comforting, so interesting, so familiar (chuckles); and sometimes I hate that familiarity and then there is this other parallel feeling of being below, you know. The feeling low, below is just totally my creation, you know, like I... Maybe it's not (inaudible), but I mean him being slightly judgmental also makes it that way, but I'm that way, too. (chuckles)

(pause) The other day, I was in class, we were supposed to form groups of four. I was in a group of four and we were each supposed to bring in something that we think would go on a single sheet of paper, like, poetry or fiction, whatever. This one woman just brought a silly little quote that, you know, you can find on Facebook or Pinterest. (chuckles) And two other women got something else and I got, you know, Proust (ph), (inaudible) by a friend of mine. [00:16:18]

As soon as we started discussion, we were supposed to each defend our piece. I was so totally snobby! (chuckles) I mean, I was just like, weirded out by that quote. I was like, "Are you serious? Like, I brought like the highest, the most beautiful passage in friendship that could ever have been, you know, like, arguably, you know? (chuckles) And you've got, you spent like two seconds on this assignment or whatever." I don't know!

So I was so snobby. She was like, "What is this?" And I was like, "You know, it's such a famous passage; you don't have (inaudible)?" It was like, and I was, I could hear myself, it was like, I am such a bitch! You know, like... But then over the next 15 minutes, whatever; half an hour, I calmed down and I was totally like, pleasant, or I hope I was pleasant. I defended my piece and I won, but... (chuckles). So I'm just seeing that I can make people feel really small, too! (chuckles) Obviously, it hurts when someone else does it to you. [00:17:28]

THERAPIST: Because there is a piece of you (and it's not all of you) that feels that life is about one-upmanship. (client affirms) And that's the only way to gain recognition or a sense of worth or self-esteem.

CLIENT: Yeah, it really is. Like, I was telling myself, "I can, this is okay, this is, I can lose and it will be all right." But really, I can't lose.

THERAPIST: Because there are so much at stake for you in any of these competitions. It's like your whole self is on the line.

CLIENT: Definitely feels that way. (pause) It's quite tiring to like live on the edge like that all the time.

THERAPIST: I can imagine. (client chuckles)

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know why I'm like that...

[pause 00:18:35 to 00:18:59]

I'm trying to be better. I mean, that is why I feel like this community is important to me, because I've just been so isolated. In my childhood also, I don't remember like, you know, healthy family time or you know, anything like that. There was heavy competition, you know; or you know, I learned lessons of how to share or how to feel good about what I have and, you know, I can't remember, it was just me and my mom and you know... (chuckles) most of the time, that's all I remember.

But with this, you know, community I feel, you know, I... I contribute and I wait and I see that people appreciate (and they do; of course, that feels good); and then when they don't agree, you know, at least don't get very aggressive, but I try to not be that way and... So I say I'm going to do something, like I design something and I, (inaudible) get ticked off and like, "This is so ugly! Let me step in and make it pretty!" And I've done that twice now, but then, while I'm doing it, I'm like, "Look, I don't have time! I have so many things going on! I've already contributed my, you know, writing; let someone else do the design. It's okay. I can live with something that, to me, looks ugly" (chuckles), you know? So... I don't know if this is relevant, but I feel like that's one way that I'm being less intense and letting go and like, not being judgmental. Well, I am judgmental, but I hold back my judgment and just...

[pause 00:20:56 to 00:21:23]

And I have fears, you know, that, you know, Chris is judgmental, I'm judgmental; both of us are just, that's what makes me feel like, "Maybe we shouldn't be together, because we're not going to experience anything if we just sit and be snobby together!" Not that he's... I don't know, I don't know what, if he's snobby or not. (pause) But I try to be less that way and try to have more fun, but I guess I go about it in the wrong way. (chuckles)

[pause 00:21:55 to 00:22:28]

(sighs) I mean, he's also very kind; or he can be, just by being judgmental. I wish I could remember that, you know? Instead of the low points (chuckles); remember the high points.

[pause 00:22:43 to 00:23:44]

Like he... yesterday, I was shuttling back and forth (chuckles) between my place, my mom's place, and his place. I walked to the grocery store and would come back, and you know, just standing and opened the door to the place and I was like, "I'm so tired, shuttling back and forth!" He was just like, you know, he walked in (inaudible) and like, "Then I'll give you a hug!" (chuckles) It was just like, despite the fact that he was, you know, so mad at me and so like hurt and all that. I mean, my, some of my stuff on Wednesday, so (chuckles). I hadn't started actually living in that place; it's scary to me! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What's scary about it? [00:24:38]

CLIENT: Well, you know, just loneliness, just being there by myself. I'm trying to tell myself like, you know, it should, the novelty value at least should drag me there, you know? (chuckles) But it hasn't yet. I'm really (inaudible).

[00:25:03 to 00:25:25]

(sighs) And I don't really take care of myself; I see that. Like, that place doesn't have a bed and I haven't ordered a bed. I get to the point of checkout on, you know, the website and then I'm like, I don't know... (chuckles) I'm not as close as I seem towards the bed. So, it's like... You know, I'm stress eating and, I don't know, doing everything except actually like taking the bull by the horns.

THERAPIST: What is pressing "purchase me" to you?

CLIENT: Commitment, (chuckles) I guess; you know, finality and... [00:26:20]

THERAPIST: Commitment to...?

CLIENT: That stupid place! (chuckles) Well, Chris also doubts. He's like, "I just don't understand why you took up a place, you know? You're so... eager to find a place and move out. I don't understand." Then (inaudible) it's like, when he says that, I'm like, "Shit! You know? What am I doing?" (chuckles) So, he makes me feel even more insane. (chuckles) Or he gets me more worried.

THERAPIST: But he doesn't know all that goes on inside of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Not that he's that interested. I mean, I tried, you know, to tell him (inaudible).

[pause 00:27:03 to 00:27:55]

I keep asking him and my mom to come with me, to take me there (chuckles). Silly!

THERAPIST: What would that mean to you?

CLIENT: Motivation, I guess; I don't know.

THERAPIST: But it seems like there are some significance in having them take you there.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess it's that I'm not doing it alone. I don't know! (chuckles) I just feel silly, I think. I think, I feel really strongly about this; I don't know. I thought, I hoped... (pause) I guess I'm afraid I'll feel sad there, you know. You know, depressed or being lonely. And then being able to manage all that (inaudible) disappointment and all that, that comes with living by yourself, and not living with a boyfriend. [00:29:17]

There is a few things that I don't know how to manage, so... (pause) Appointments are a big thing. (pause) And I try to observe other people, like where exactly do they derive their sense of self-worth? I feel like all, sometimes the answer is always, most of the time, the answer is always like, they have a family to lean back on, they have parents, they have grandparents, they have you know, whatever property or something. But I wish, not just wish, I know maybe the strength is also like personal. (therapist affirms) (pause) Should read Dickens or something. (chuckles)

[pause 00:30:32 to 00:31:21]

Well, I guess I want to believe that I can create all these things, like I can create a sense of security, I can create like a family, you know then my friends and community. I can create the support structure that I think everyone else has (chuckles).

[pause 00:31:46 to 00:32:34]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: (sighs) I'm trying to picture myself there. (chuckles) (pause) I don't know; I've made it into such a big issue by, you know, signing the lease like two weeks ago or three weeks. I don't even know how long it's been, maybe two weeks and not actually going and living there! (chuckles) Just keep putting it off, you know, thinking, "Oh, how I wish it was like my old place in Porter's Square; that was so much prettier, you know, like cleaner and smelled nicer!" (chuckles). Or that, you know, "Eh; I don't want to do it!"

[00:33:17 to 00:33:33]

The only way that I can make myself go there, move there, is by planning little projects like, the artwork that I'm going to make and hang up and you know (chuckles) the bed and the wood door and then the sheets and you know that's the only, the only way that I can want to make myself...

[pause 00:33:57 to 00:37:14]

THERAPIST: Where did you go?

CLIENT: I was thinking like... like Chris, you know, he keeps saying, "Why did you get this place?" I don't know, I feel baffled and I say, "I don't know." But... I don't know, it's like when I'm not baffled, I can say that, "Yes, I know that I want this place so I can work on myself." But you know, like he's not someone who would understand that or even ever think in that way.

THERAPIST: He would understand that you're dating other people and you don't want to bring them back to his apartment.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yes, that, he would understand! But he wouldn't understand like, the larger project of working on myself, you know? (pause) So, I'm like, just stay home with your work, you know (inaudible) that someone like him I naturally feel... like indulgent or you know, superficial. No, it's not superficial, but indulgent, you know? To say such things as, you know, "I'm working on myself!" (chuckles) Or such (inaudible). [00:38:35]

THERAPIST: Well, that's true, but I guess I can't, there are things that you could tell him that he would understand. (client affirms) So I'm wondering if you're afraid to tell him those things.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think I've told him, but I still don't, I know that I'm afraid of saying, "I find other men more attractive." I have said things like, you know, "There is so much baggage with us; so that it's hard to be intimate. But, since I don't have any baggage with other people, it's easier to be with them." That, I think I have said and then he would understand.

THERAPIST: Even that's not the whole truth.

CLIENT: What is the whole truth?

THERAPIST: It's not simply the baggage; it's that you are wondering if you can make a better life with somebody else.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess so.

THERAPIST: Have a better relationship with somebody else. That's part of the motivation.

CLIENT: But, like I believe that, and at the same time, I don't believe that. [00:39:38]

THERAPIST: No, I appreciate that. If you just truly believed that, you would have moved out already. (client affirms) (pause) I just wonder if you're afraid to cut that tie (client affirms) by telling him that...

CLIENT: Oh, I'm very afraid. (therapist affirms) He said I won't have my cake and eat it too, so that's... I do! (chuckles) You know. I like this cake! I've had it for seven years! (chuckles) You know, so...

THERAPIST: (pause) Which is sort of a funny expression. I don't know where the expression comes from, but if you have cake, wouldn't you want to eat it?

CLIENT: That's exactly what I said to him this morning! "How can you eat the cake if you don't have it?" (chuckles) So then he was like, "No, you don't want to see that." I'm mean! (ph) (chuckles) So... [00:40:39]

(pause) But that's even wrong, because it's like what it actually means is having it both ways. So, anyway... (chuckles) (pause) Maybe if I'm just a little more courageous I'll figure it out and have it one way, and learn to live with it. I don't know; I just, that's what I've told him that, you know, like, "I am working on myself and I hope..." You know, when he hugged me last night, it was like, you know, he's so kind and it was like, "I hope we end up together, but I'm also seeing this other guy, you know, so..."

(sighs) That is what kind of tears me a little bit, makes me kind of crazy that I do these things. I say one thing to Chris or I say something that I genuinely believe in, but it's not the whole truth. So in that way, it's a lie also, I guess. On the other hand, I'm genuinely confused. (pause) (inaudible) (pause) I mean, I guess I'm just at the point where I'm like, this need for other men, is it like a passing phase? Is it like a symptom of something that I'm going through or is it genuinely like, I'm moving on, you know? I can't decide. Because I still can't, you know, like not see him, you know?

[pause 00:42:27 to 00:42:53]

Is it about blaming (ph), is it about gaining recognition or, you know, whatever through dating, you know? Or is it like (inaudible), like... (pause) Do you think I can know at some point? I don't know.

THERAPIST: With more certainty, yes.

CLIENT: You wouldn't happen to know, though? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Know what the best thing for you is?

CLIENT: No, what is this? Like, is it a temporary glitch in the system or is it like, is there a change? (chuckles) [00:43:50]

THERAPIST: Do you mean in you, right now, in terms of moving out? (client affirms) I don't know. It's a very strong tug of war. You are very much pushed and pulled. I know it seems like paralysis; not entirely paralysis, but it is, I think, just too very strong opposing forces pushing against each other about at the same force.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's basically it. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: And I appreciate how conflicted you feel. And I appreciate that it must be very hard.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I hope it will be past, in the past one day.

THERAPIST: (affirms) That's part of the goal.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, in the meantime, my roommate, I just am like, I'll move out and we'll keep dating this other guy because I don't know. Instead of not dating. I mean, I do, every time I think every weekend, like, "I'll break up with him." (chuckles) It doesn't happen. (chuckles) [00:45:05]

THERAPIST: Do you like him?

CLIENT: Yeah. I like the way that I feel so relaxed, you know, and he's... He comes from a totally different like sector, you know, this other (ph) guy; but he's you know, genuinely interested in other things. Maybe he's also going through a phase, but part of me, I'm (inaudible) him, but the point is that he asks me questions and I feel like, you know, I actually have things to say, whereas you know, like... I don't feel subordinate. Well, I feel subordinate in the sense that, you know, he's probably got a lot more money than I do, but other than that, I don't feel subordinate.

THERAPIST: Well, Cecelia (ph), we've run out of time. We'll stop for today. So I will see you on Monday, at 10:15.

CLIENT: Thanks; sounds good. See you! Have a good weekend!

THERAPIST: Take care! You, too!

END TRANSCRIPT