TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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NO VOICE UNTIL [00:01:42]

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. (long pause)

CLIENT: I started living in my new place. (chuckles) [00:02:56] I don't know if I count the nights I've spent there. (laughs) Two nights. (pause) Not living with another person, that's kind of new for me so I'm learning how to cope with that.

THERAPIST: Good. [00:04:00]

CLIENT: I have a roommate, but he's not really around that much, like living with Chris. My professor was saying yesterday that every place has an aura. Chris's place has this academic aura, obviously, because his books are everywhere; books and wires, basically. (laughs) I've tried to change it, tried to soften it a bit with art and furniture (laughs) and rearranging the space, lamps. [00:05:04] But it still has a strong aura of work, which I like, I guess. My little room feels a little claustrophobic, but I'm trying to kind of not see it that way, I guess. I guess when I was living in Arlington that was a much nicer place because my roommate made it a home. She made it warm and nice and look okay and things. This guy is never around and it's a very "guy" place. It smells of guy. (laughs) [00:06:00] My room is very neat and I'm hoping that won't frighten me too much this time. I'm trying to be expansive in the dining room, I guess. That's my challenge. (laughs) I'm trying not to put myself in a box, in what feels like a box, you know? I can do anything. I can go out and eat and I can do whatever I want. I can read whatever. It doesn't have to be like do you know what I'm trying to say and not feel . . .

THERAPIST: Confined?

CLIENT: Yeah, too confined like in my imagination, even though I might be physically confined. (chuckles) (pause) (sighs) [00:07:00] I'm still seeing both people. (laughs) Seeing as in [ ] (inaudible at 00:07:05). Chris is more like a really good friend. I was feeling sick yesterday so I just stayed there, slept really well. (laughed) At my place I can't sleep and it's kind of right on the main street. There is so much noise and the bed is not really a bed. When I feel like I want to be taken care of it's like he's there. (pause) I guess I'm just trying to delay the question of what I'm choosing and being attached. (chuckles) (pause) [00:08:19] They are very different spaces. I feel like I'm seeing very different things; like when I'm hanging out with Chris and his friends it feels very different from hanging out with that guy and his friend on Friday, mostly drinking and then just chatting. I felt like, at least for that bit, I was able to hold my own in the sense that these guys are not intellectuals, so they don't have as much cultural capital, although I'm sure you'll be like, "Why do you think that?" (chuckles) [00:09:12] I feel like I have a certain personality. Maybe it's just new so I feel that way, but I don't feel as intimidated as I did with Chris's friends, at all. Some of them I can't even walk past because they don't smile. They're his colleagues at work so I feel very, very conscious. I think I told you that they were chatting and I couldn't even walk past them.

THERAPIST: This is Chris's colleagues?

CLIENT: Yeah, because they're all professors and I see them as having achieved the ultimate goal that there can be (sighs), being intellectual. [00:10:06] (pause) But I don't feel that way with this guy and his friend. I didn't feel that way. It was slightly boring, obviously, their company.

THERAPIST: I'm not sure what that means, "It was slightly boring, obviously."

CLIENT: (laughs) Because they won't (pause) . . . They put on a movie which is really not that interesting. It's not heavy or it's not intellectual. It's not a classic. It's not something that you can really talk about for more than five minutes. It's not like [Trevoe or Goddard.] (ph?) It's not like that, but in that sense it's not as intellectually stimulating but it's not intimidating. I don't know how else to put it. (pause) I'm observing these two different spaces that I'm occupying or finding myself in. (pause) [00:12:10] What I mean is that right now it's slightly refreshing to be out of that all the time, but I can see the drop. I don't know if that's the right word. Limitations its limits. Maybe it will get old very quickly. (laughs)

THERAPIST: The limitations of . . ?

CLIENT: Of the company of non-intellectuals. I don't know. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I guess I don't know what an intellectual is. [00:13:00]

CLIENT: Chris, his friends. (laughs)

THERAPIST: What defines an intellectual?

CLIENT: Someone that is an academic or someone who has to read books on a daily basis or whatever. A graduate student. Basically, it's a very narrow definition, you might say or maybe it's not a narrow definition. Maybe it's very specific, but either a graduate student or an academic. Yeah.

THERAPIST: So it's their role that defines them?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm in that strange [limited] (ph?) space where I do read, but I'm not an academic.

THERAPIST: Well you're a graduate student.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I'm in creative art, which is like the most, silliest, or on the edge of (laughs) everything. It doesn't have to be, but I feel like something much more serious should be what makes my play look like sociology or anthropology. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I guess I just don't understand your categories.

CLIENT: Do I have a lot of absurd categories?

THERAPIST: I'm not saying they're absurd, but I don't understand them.

CLIENT: Why don't you understand them?

THERAPIST: It seems arbitrary to me why sociology or anthropology is higher up than art. I just don't understand what distinguishes them. (pause) [00:14:58]

CLIENT: I guess I have associations, like I've met anthropologists and sociologists and they can talk for so much longer and seem so much more serious than artists. These former people have a purpose. They're in a six-year PhD program, at the end of which they will get a very nice academic job. Arists that I've met here . . .

THERAPIST: Which is, you know, not true.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: The percentage of people who get their PhD's who get academic positions is very low.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah.

CLIENT: Well what do they do?

THERAPIST: That's a good question. A lot of them are out of work or they get adjunct jobs and they live very marginal existences. There are a lot of reasons why people don't go into academia any more.

CLIENT: I didn't for that same reason.

THERAPIST: Exactly. You know that. You end up working at a coffee shop. [00:16:06]

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I'm serious. It's why a lot of very smart people go into other professions, because it isn't likely that they'll actually be able to make a living. That's not to speak about the quality of their intellect.

CLIENT: Yes. (pause) I don't know. I guess I feel oppressed thinking about this, about these categories. I would so like to know the world differently sometimes I fear. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I can see why they're very oppressive. I understand there is some logic to it, although some of the logic you have I want to understand more, but they are pretty arbitrary, too. They're not defined by specific qualities, they're defined by these sort of external categories. [00:17:04] (pause)

CLIENT: Now I'm very mad. (laughs) You've got me very upset.

THERAPIST: Tell me, what are you mad about?

CLIENT: Why in the hell I'm taking my shoes off and throwing them on that experience, being with him and then meeting his friends who don't shut up and just keep talking and talking and talking. Some of them are actually nice people who have other dimensions to their personality, emotional dimensions, but then that's all I see. Ah, you're on this track and you have this purpose and you're talking this and that and you're collecting data and I don't know. It's just like I don't see anything else and then walking down the street that's full of academics and they're all sitting there and writing books or papers. I don't know. [00:18:00] It just feels like that's all that there is. Do you know what I mean? Like that's all that exists. That's why I feel oppressed, like there is nothing else.

THERAPIST: [For who? I call that a concern.] (ph?)

CLIENT: In the world. I don't know. I don't know why I feel this intense oppression, but that's how I feel. When I think of some of these people, that's all I think of. You're getting your PhD. It sits on my head. I know I'm being very inarticulate, but it's just a feeling. (chuckles) (long pause) [00:19:20] I'm sure Chris doesn't mean it the way I've taken it to mean, that he hates everyone else or finds their company lacking sorely or whatever. (pause) I just don't know how I would have reacted differently. Like when I first met them I was 22 or 23 and I had just met Chris and he had just been accepted to Cambridge and taking the decision to move with him from Virginia. I don't know if you've been to Cambridge, but it's like there is nothing else. There are those five colleges, one university. It's basically a student town campus, whatever, university town. I had a hard time finding a job and I just did menial work, nothing very exciting. (pause) [00:21:05] I didn't really have any of my friends, so I would just cook for us and then his friends would come over if they could, so I didn't really understand what is my role or what should it be; what should it look like. (pause) I don't understand why I feel oppressed by them. (laughs) (pause) Do you know? I can't figure it out. [00:22:00] (pause)

THERAPIST: On a basic level, being oppressed is someone trying to do something to you, so the question is what do you think they're trying to do to you? (pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess they're looking at me and judging me and expecting something from me I feel like. I don't know. [00:23:00] (pause) Which is funny, because if I say this to Chris he'll be like, "You know, you might not want to hear this, but people don't think about you. They don't." (laughs) So you really don't have any reason to worry about them or feel oppressed because most people don't think about other people. They just do what they want to do. (pause) [00:24:13] I don't know. Maybe I want to have what they have? I don't know. I want to feel as purposeful as they do or self-important. I don't know. (chuckles) It's hard to tell. (long pause) [00:26:09] Maybe it will go away. I don't know. It hasn't for quite a while, [with telling you or whatever.] (ph?) (sighs) I'm just baffled. I don't know how else to . . . I don't know. (long pause) [00:27:22]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: I'm trying to figure out why I feel oppressed, but I can't. (pause) [00:28:25] Aren't there certain people that make you feel oppressed?

THERAPIST: I don't know. I'm not sure what that means. How would they make me feel oppressed?

CLIENT: You just want to avoid them.

THERAPIST: For what purpose?

CLIENT: I don't know. Whatever you feel something negative about them. I don't know. They make you feel foolish. (laughs) [00:29:01] (pause) Maybe it is true. Maybe it's not just in my head. Maybe they actually are judgmental and I heard them pass judgment about others and I actually do some of those things that they disapprove of or something. Maybe it's they look at the world in these narrow categories not all the time, but sometimes make me feel boxed. Maybe it's not all in my head.

THERAPIST: But that would mean that you care what they think about you. [00:29:59]

CLIENT: I do, right?

THERAPIST: But people can't make you feel a certain way if you don't care what the people think. You sort of have to care what they think.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I don't know. I don't have enough information to think about them. I don't know. It's confusing. (sighs) (pause) I think I want to have an easier kind of people and I don't really care about what they think about me. I think all of us do. [00:31:01] There are certain people that I really care about what they think about me. I don't know why. It's like I'm seeking their approval or something. Apparently, I'm only seeking it from intellectuals. (laughs) I don't know. If they tell me, "Oh, yeah. You are one of us," would that make me feel better about myself or what? Maybe it will be easier if I get something published. If I get my book published it might be easier then because then I won't need I might still need it, but not to this degree I won't need approval to such a degree. [00:32:02] All of us need approval, right?

THERAPIST: I think that's true.

CLIENT: Currently I guess I seek the approval of my teachers and, to some extent, my peers and Chris and, to some extent, my mom. I'm trying to not care so much about his friends. (chuckles) In the past I had sought their approval. (pause) (sighs) [00:33:04] I think I will be much better off if I can figure out why certain people make me feel small or foolish or whatever. I don't know how exactly. I know that's a general thing, but at this specific moment if I could examine why I feel that way and actually think about it, then maybe I can control it or something. (pause) I guess everyone feels insecure at some point. [00:34:00] You do something and it doesn't go well and there is that feeling in the back of your head. And for a struggling artist, I do it way too much and I've just been in this quicksand of insecurity for a long time now and it's all internalized. If you're trying out a new recipe, for example, and it fails, you just throw it out. You don't go, "Oh, my God. I suck. What the hell? I can't do anything right." Hopefully. I feel like I wouldn't do that. I would regret wasting the material, but it wouldn't be like an existential crisis. With art it is an existential crisis. (chuckles) [00:35:01] But other struggling artists, I feel like they deal with it differently. They're like, "Okay, let's try this out. Let's try that out. Let's put this thing aside." It feels like they have strategies, coping mechanisms. Yeah. (chuckles) (pause) It's just like while I am struggling with this, I just feel like I can't face certain people on equal terms; and Chris and all his friends are definitely those people (laughs) because they exude such an aura of confidence. [00:36:06] I'm sure they struggle, too, but I don't see them that way. Maybe I should start seeing them that way. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I would imagine that they also struggle to be in the city with these extremely prestigious universities. I can't imagine that doesn't weigh on them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Especially in the city. There is such a hierarchy there.

CLIENT: Yeah. They do struggle with that. I've heard them talk about it.

THERAPIST: Yes. So where does that go for you? Where does that information go?

CLIENT: They're so grounded in their work that they don't care. They kind of talk about it as a joke like, "Oh, yeah. I was talking to this guy and he asked me where do I work and I said 'Amherst' and they had already turned their face away." (chuckles) [00:37:07] I feel like when they tell me this they're laughing about it and they're saying, "You know, look how shallow some people can be," and then they go back to talking about their work or something. My sense, then, is they're very focused, grounded and confident people because they don't get phased. They're not saying it like, 'Oh, no. You made me feel so small." And then come up with excuses. "I'm not in Harvard because . . ." (chuckles) (pause) [00:37:54] I don't know. I feel like the best thing I can do is to avoid them right now. (chuckles) And seek out the company of people who don't make me feel small. I feel like that's the easy way out, but for right now, I feel fine doing that. (chuckles) (long pause) [00:42:40]

THERAPIST: How come you're quiet?

CLIENT: Yeah. Stuff. My mind was wandering.

THERAPIST: What is it wandering to? (pause)

CLIENT: (sighs) (pause) (chuckles) I guess it does have an effect where you stay. (pause) I don't know why I'm thinking about these things (laughs) because I guess I'm . . . I don't know. (pause) [00:43:54] I guess I'm wondering the reason why I wanted to live separately on my own was to feel stronger and not be phased by people. I think I'm doing things for myself. I thought maybe it will make me feel better about myself, but I guess even if while I'm doing that I could think of things that bother me or people who oppress me or whatever. (long pause) [00:45:27] I don't see any other way of dealing with it, other than doing something that makes me feel powerful or . . . (pause) If you are by nature an insecure person, then you find those avenues that make you feel secure in something, your talents, or in something. [00:46:04]

THERAPIST: I don't agree to that, to some extent, but when you said "if you are by nature insecure" my eyebrow raised because that's interesting, whether it's really your nature or whether it was your nurture. Maybe it doesn't matter in the end, but I definitely my eyebrow raised when you said "by nature insecure."

CLIENT: (chuckles) Well nature, nurture, whatever, however it's happened, you are insecure. How are you going to deal with it? (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, but maybe looking at the sort of building blocks of the nurturer that led you to feel insecure in examining those building blocks might also change the way you think about your insecurity, or the extent to which you even feel insecure.

CLIENT: Can that happen? (laughs) [00:47:02]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Because part of what makes you feel insecure, not entirely, but are the beliefs that you constructed around your upbringing and also your father's beliefs or fears and preoccupations with his status that you've internalized. That is an important nurture piece to it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: A lot of assumptions and fantasies about yourself or yourself [ ] (inaudible at 00:47:35) of the other people. It's not simply "I feel insecure about myself." It's more complicated.

CLIENT: I would like to examine those building blocks with you.

THERAPIST: I know. I would like to do that with you. We do have to stop for today. I will see you on Wednesday at our regular time. Take care.

CLIENT: You, too.

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