TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in.

CLIENT: Not much has happened since Monday so I don't know what to talk about.

(PAUSE): [00:01:34 00:03:41]

CLIENT: Sorry. Still thinking about what to say. I had a good day at school. I'm learning to be comfortable in my own skin I guess. (Pause) I'm thinking about hanging out socially with some of my classmates but I don't really know how to go about it. I guess I don't really know how to make new friends. Like earlier I just when I was living with Chris and my mom I would like kind of invite everyone over. Some people you have to hang out with in caf�s and bars and stuff. So I don't yet know how to do that. That's not my scene. But I feel like I should do it just because I would like to make all kinds of friends. And I guess most people are okay being who they are but I always feel the need to change or alter me. Maybe I'm not completely comfortable in my skin.

(PAUSE): [00:05:55 00:06:46]

CLIENT: Chris is being very nice and I feel very guilty about that. I guess no one really knows will he love me, will he hate me. He'll be so hurt.

THERAPIST: How do you mean? What you're up to?

CLIENT: Well, I haven't told him details or anything like that. I'm going out with this other guy on the weekends, you know, like I did tell him earlier like a few weeks ago I met someone and you know, we kissed and that's all I said. Because at that time that's all that had happened. And still that's all that's happened but still it's more like we see each other regularly. I don't know. I guess I'm thinking, like he's like my older brother and he's just my good friend now even though I cook for him and I stay over at his place a few times a week. You look very upset.

THERAPIST: Upset?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: I don't know. You looked upset.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: What are you doing? Something like that.

THERAPIST: I see. Maybe that's a projection.

CLIENT: Yeah, it probably is.

THERAPIST: Are you wondering what you're doing?

CLIENT: What.

THERAPIST: You said that I'm wondering what you're doing and I said maybe it's a projection and I said oh, are you wondering what you're doing.

CLIENT: Yeah, I wonder all the time. I think I'm like just lost and hopelessly lost. I mean I'm hopefully lost. I have hope that's why I'm searching. I mean like I don't know. I guess I try not to be too judgmental but then I know that that just makes me give myself a free pass and do whatever, be irresponsible with other especially when it comes to other people's feelings. But then it's like yeah, I don't know which way to go about it to be harsh and just yeah. Or to be just like give myself a little leeway and I don't know.

(PAUSE): [00:10:13 00:11:11]

CLIENT: It's not like other people seem to have it all together. It's just that they've gone through stuff and figured things out and maybe they've gone through stuff before me. Maybe they've already sorted through things. And maybe it's also true that they have certain kinds of support structures that I don't or maybe I did but pushed them away or don't make use of them. That's possible. And I was thinking that people who stay in long term relationships, how do they make it last a lifetime? Obviously, not everything stays the same. They have fights and they grow apart maybe or they have intimacy problems and all kinds of problems and how to they, despite that, stay together? I guess, I can wonder about that to some extent but know the specifics of my case are very like different like I just started despising and hating it because of my own insecurities I guess, my own lack of success and confidence and all that. And it's taken a long time to learn that Chris has nothing to do with any of that. He's not responsible and but that makes me sad. Like shouldn't he be a little responsible? Shouldn't he have been again it's one of those should have, could haves.

THERAPIST: Shouldn't he be responsible for -?

CLIENT: Well when I was so sad, you know, when I was falling down, shouldn't he have been a little concerned? Or no, he shouldn't have been?

THERAPIST: I'm not sure what you're referring to in particular.

CLIENT: Well, just the time when he got a job and I only got a whole bunch of rejections.

THERAPIST: You feel he didn't care?

CLIENT: I didn't want him to care and he was all high and mighty and successful and climbing the charts, you know, climbing the ladder and he's busy and his work is so important and he's so important and I just felt very stupid and childish. And I can still feel that way when I think about that time. I guess I still haven't completely gotten over it. You know, he was in Rhode Island and we were chatting on Skype and I was like, 'I'm falling apart,' on Skype. I just wanted to push him away and not seek him out because I had sought him out when he was around earlier and it just didn't seem to go anywhere, you know? I guess I should have stepped up and taken care of myself but I remember even those moments were quite bleak, you know? Like him just working away and being preoccupied and me having a job and working on the weekend and the craft just not going anywhere and sharing pieces with him like, 'yeah, okay, I've edited it, it's this, it's that. And then me looking at his edits and me going, 'wait,' (Unclear) the most glaring spelling mistakes or grammatical errors you know. And me feeling, 'what is this?' You know? That was just a completely bad time for all of us people. We were living together and there was no joy. There was no real intimacy. There was no I mean we all had some fun in the sense that I was making money and I was saving money and I was taking care of him and I was taking care of my mom and we all ate together and we cooked together and we threw parties for each other's birthdays except mine, but you know. I don't like celebrating my birthday. But you know, that picture. What do you think about that picture? It was all wholesome. No I won't give you adjectives. [00:16:23]

THERAPIST: I can't comment on pictures.

CLIENT: Yes you do.

THERAPIST: I don't feel like pictures give me any information about people's experiences.

CLIENT: But you do. I've noticed you say stuff.

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: Well, you know when I'm describing a dream or like an image and you're like, 'oh, that's that.' Or, 'that feels like that.' And, 'that sounds like that.' Do you want a specific example?

THERAPIST: I try to describe how the experience seems to me which is different than saying, 'oh, that picture looks wholesome.' Because that would be me determining what people's experiences just from what things look like and I don't feel like I can do that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You feel like you can do that. In fact you feel like it's obvious. This picture means that these people feel this way. I don't think that's obvious at all.

CLIENT: What do you mean? What's the difference between experience and picture like picture is static?

THERAPIST: A picture is from the outside in. Here's a scene. I don't know from that scene what people's experience of that scene is.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But I feel like that's such at the root of one of the things that you struggle with. Like look at these people's lives. They look so great. They must be happy. They're married, they have two kids, they have a fancy home. They must be happy. I have no idea what they're feeling. They could be completely miserable.

CLIENT: How do you look at it?

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: You don't see pictures then what do you see? You see film? Oh, I don't know, yeah. How do you visualize them in their experience?

THERAPIST: I don't know what their experience is. I don't assume a particular kind of experience. I might have an experience of that picture but I don't know what their experience is. Am I to assume that my experience is their experience? Because my experience is how I would feel in that situation which may have nothing to do with how they feel.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I don't even understand how you visualize others. How do you visualize things?

THERAPIST: What kind of things?

CLIENT: Me. Like how do you visualize me? Or how do you visualize someone you're curious about?

THERAPIST: How do you mean "visualize"? I guess maybe I don't understand how you're using that?

CLIENT: Well I mean I'm just curious about what like how our educational experiences have been that different that you know, I've been trained to look at art or there's been this whole training of modern life where you look at static images and draw inferences and that's the whole I guess that's my experience of say a painting. So you extrapolate that to looking at people everywhere like that as a static image. And you know, Facebook, and all that, that reinforces that idea, I guess. I mean, I don't know. Maybe this is too abstract. I know it is for me, but like that's the impressionistic idea I have of all the world and people and like their lives are like a series of static images strung together and each experience, each image has it's true for that point in time.

THERAPIST: I guess I find that a little confusing because an image is not if your image is not something you see as something somebody else sees.

CLIENT: No, you see it too. If you drew it, you can see it. I mean that's, I guess that's what you're saying, right? The root of the problem is that I see myself from the outside in.

THERAPIST: You do. But and I would argue further it's not I would say that you can't see yourself from the outside in. You make assumptions. You're really actually seeing yourself from the inside in and assuming that it's from the outside in.

CLIENT: Can you give an example?

THERAPIST: Well, yeah. I mean, people looking down on you and thinking they're so superior. You don't know what these people are thinking. That's how you see yourself looking on the inside in and then assuming that that's the image that is other's people's image of you whereas that may have nothing to do with their image of you.

(PAUSE): [00:21:56 00:22:13]

CLIENT: I get very, very pissed to think that people have no image, you know? Really, that's what my whole life is all about to make art out of myself, my circumstances and to present that to people and for them to have a very, very profound emotional response. To gawk at it, to love it, to fear it, like remember it. That is my goal. And I feel very I feel cheated, I feel gypped when they have no response or when they take it lightly.

(PAUSE): [00:23:13 00:23:23]

CLIENT: I used to have this friend I guess he's a friend, this guy who used to be very much interested in me or in high school back in Nepal, like we were 16 or 15 or something, he'd had a crush on me for three years and then I told him I was coming here and several years later he like he's working and I guess he has money, he's successful, and we've met like three or four times just as friends. I was very mean to him, like rude to him but he's always like just on the surface like, 'hey, what's up? What's going on?' And I'm like, 'what have you experienced in life? You haven't even kissed a girl. All you do is work,' and he's like, 'oh, that's all right, why are you so pessimistic?' And I'm like, wait until you walk in my shoes, you know, walk a mile in my shoes. And then he's like, 'okay, fine, I won't comment.'

THERAPIST: What did you mean by that? "Wait till you walk a mile in my shoes"?

CLIENT: Well I just he's like why are you so pessimistic? Why aren't you so happy go lucky like him? And I'm like there's so many things to get angry about you know just for me personally and around the world, there are so many things that could go wrong and he was like silently making lots of money and that's all he does and that just makes me go, 'oh.'

THERAPIST: Is that why you're mean to him?

CLIENT: Kind of. That's what I was saying, right? Like I want people to dig deep. I want them to have a profound emotional experience based on the art that I make of my life and present to them when that happens. But just generally to feel deeper, you know, and people who just float by on the surface just really piss me off, especially people whom I would like to dig deep, you know? Or who profess to like me or love me. I'm like, 'how the hell can you say that when you haven't even scratched the surface?' That's what it was. That I remember. I was so pissed when he told me he loved me. I was, you know, 15. I was, 'Wait a second, you don't know anything about me. You don't know what my dad's done. And you don't know the day to day environment that I live in. How in the hell can you say that you love me based on just seeing me for a few hours every day in class?' Yes, in class, I'm fabulous. I'm smart and well maybe not fabulous but that's just a fa�ade, you know?'

THERAPIST: What should he have seen?

CLIENT: What I just said, you know? Like the day to day hell. I think that really pissed me off and that really scared me that love could be so superficial. I'm really scared of that like when Chris says anyone says, 'I love you.' And I'm just like, 'bullshit' you know. No one can love you know, when they see the muck.

THERAPIST: Can someone loving you never be true?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think my dad would say that and obviously it was a big lie. He would say this and he would be drunk or something and just be all, 'I'd do anything for you. I'd rob a bank and help you that's weird, but he would have a very profound emotional experience and that was just really not true, you know? Or maybe it was true but all the other times when he was sober he was not feeling so maybe profound emotional experiences are lies. Maybe what is true is just what it is on the surface. That is what my conundrum is. So maybe I should only believe people who don't say, 'I love you,' who don't profess to have some kind of a deeper understanding, who are just like, 'hey.' You know, 'how are you?' and 'bye.' Are like, 'let's have a drink,' and that's it. I guess I'm in a phase where I'm like, 'I'll take that,' instead of running away from Chris and stuff.

(PAUSE): [00:29:27 00:29:36]

CLIENT: Do you know what love is?

THERAPIST: Why do you think that question is important to you right now?

CLIENT: I guess that's what I'm struggling with like I don't know if you have a different perspective on my rant. Yeah, that really has scared me like I said. I mean, someone being able to say that based on what?

(PAUSE): [00:30:14 00:30:22]

CLIENT: I think I'm still mad at him for loving me which is weird.

(PAUSE): [00:30:22 00:03:37]

CLIENT: I've been mad at him for several years now, especially like at school I would be furious. Because of him all the other guys would tease me you know like -

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Well you know how kids are at that age. They invent nicknames to marry each other off and then you're walking down the street and they're like teasing you that other guy. It was fun in the sense that being the center of attention feels good but I was pissed at him, like what the hell have you done? What have you told these guys about me? Have you not been able to keep to yourself? Why do you keep staring at me? If my dad were to find out he would kill me and I don't know. What do you think was going on?

THERAPIST: For whom?

CLIENT: For me.

THERAPIST: You're asking me a lot of these questions today questions that I'm not sure I can even answer. Do you think I would know what was going on for you better than you could?

CLIENT: Usually you have an insight or a perspective.

(PAUSE): [00:32:31 00:32:52]

THERAPIST: I feel at these times that you're looking for something from me that I can't quite put my finger on.

CLIENT: I guess that this will take a while this topic of love and my dilemmas with it.

THERAPIST: You wanted to know right now what was going on for you at these moments and you had asked me earlier in the session what I think of you, how I see you or what my image of you is.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There's something that you're wanting to know from me.

(PAUSE): [00:33:38 00:35:10]

CLIENT: Was it right for him to love me? Was he lying?

THERAPIST: How would I know something like that?

CLIENT: Oh you know, it's like rereading the story, you have an opinion, that's all.

(PAUSE): [00:35:29 00:35:49]

CLIENT: When someone says they love you, what do you do with that? Like how do you process it?

THERAPIST: It's not so clear.

CLIENT: Should it be something you process?

THERAPIST: I don't know if it should be. (Pause) I guess if it brings you closer to someone it would be a good thing if you want to if you want to be close to somebody. I don't know if that means that you should process it.

(PAUSE): [00:36:26 00:36:43]

THERAPIST: And I could see why you think that love could be just a lie.

CLIENT: Why? You mean because of my dad or because of the guy or -?

THERAPIST: I was thinking about your dad. And how can you love someone and treat them the way he treated you and your mom? And I do think that what feels like real love gets confused with a kind of merger because your mother I think you feel loves you. I don't think you feel your dad did or didn't love you at least I a particular kind of way and I think your mother does love you for all of the problems in your relationship with her but I think it gets confused with a kind of merger and dedifferentiation.

CLIENT: And there's like I guess money problems and all so there's the dependency there and responsibility and the roles are confusing so that's why it's a troubled kind of love.

(PAUSE): [00:38:09 00:38:23]

CLIENT: I feel like I did the same thing to Chris.

THERAPIST: In what way?

CLIENT: Well like the roles got confused and like dependencies of all kinds emotional on my part, financial on his part and not financial on my part.

(PAUSE): [00:38:36 00:38:49]

CLIENT: But, no, he said to me once he said, 'you've captured my heart,' and I remember not feeling much and this is a guy who's not very vocal and not very outwardly he doesn't show any of that. I guess he does in cute ways but it was supposed to be a profound moment. When was it? I wish I could tell you maybe last year. Yeah, September or October. But at that point I have to keep track of but at that time I was still thinking about his friend, you know. And I had that information in my hand but I didn't know what to do with it. So it was like this thing in my hand like this bright fish that we'd just caught and it was supposed to be beautiful and it was supposed to be delicious but I felt like I didn't have cooking oil, I didn't have a gas stove so I could cook it right away and share it with him. So I just kind of it glimmered for a while and then it just popped right back into the river.

(PAUSE): [00:40:19 00:40:33]

CLIENT: What do I do with that? Like what was I supposed to do with it? I guess I was trying to understand like why did he say that? What have I done to make him feel close to me? Am I that brilliant? No. Am I that smart? No. Am I that successful? No. Am I that pretty? No. Am I it's just shared life you know that makes one person love another person like that. Maybe it is a bit of all the other things that I said are not true, but so that's why I feel like that's sacred. You don't throw that away.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you're throwing it away?

CLIENT: Yeah. For more chemistry. Or less baggage. Because those years sometimes don't feel light and uplifting. They feel heavy and burdensome because of those pictures, you know? The pictures that I told you comment on this sad, wholesome picture. Those weigh a lot.

(PAUSE): [00:42:28 00:42:46]

CLIENT: What? You were going to say -

THERAPIST: I was going to say I'm pretty sure I see you much more positively than you see yourself.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: That was interesting.

CLIENT: It's like someone says something nice to me and I have to grab their throat and say, 'what? Why did you say that?'

THERAPIST: Wow. Are you going to try to strangle me?

CLIENT: Not strangle but grab your collar and say, 'why did you say that? What do you mean?'

THERAPIST: What do you think gets to you about that statement that I just made that makes you want to grab me by the collar?

CLIENT: Don't take that literally. This is going to be recorded and stuff. No I don't know. Just this profound fear that I'm falling, you know? I feel like I walk on the road of negativity so I know its ground it's my grounding but I'm like something nice and positive like lifts me up and I just flutter away. I'm afraid of fluttering away. It feels like it will probably be wrong and then I'll disappoint you and then you'll be like, 'I expected as much.' And then it will be worse, it will be very negative.

THERAPIST: Even in the best of relationships people disappoint each other and you're not sure that there's life after that disappointment or if there's just despair.

CLIENT: Despair?

THERAPIST: Well if there's not life after disappointment then the alternative is despair. And so I guess to circumvent that whole process if you don't think well of someone then you can't be disappointed and then you can't become despairing.

CLIENT: Yeah, exactly. It's a very well thought out plan of making sure I don't fall on my ass at the end.

THERAPIST: Well, you're not falling on your ass but you're beginning by sitting on your ass like you've already fallen so you don't end up slapping your ass against the ground but you're still on the ground.

CLIENT: Yeah, true.

THERAPIST: (Unclear) we're going to need to stop today.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Yeah, 10:15?

THERAPIST: Yeah. See you later.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. Take care.

CLIENT: You too.

END TRANSCRIPT