TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi Cecelia, come on in. Sorry, I'm a few minutes late.

CLIENT: I thought I was here at the wrong time. I still feel like I have a little cold, or just allergies. [pause] I didn't make notes from last time. [pause] I think we were talking about love. [chuckles] Yeah, I found it strange. Like I think I was saying like on that, the first time some guy said to me, you know, "I love you," and I was like, "How dare you? How could you? You don't know where I come from," et cetera, right. And I thought that was strange on my part, because I thought maybe the standard response would be, "Oh, no thanks, I don't love you back." Or, "Oh yeah, I like you too," you know. But I don't know. But I was talking to Chris and he was like, "Yeah, it makes sense." I don't know. But you want them to know more about you and expect-and only then expect them to love you, once they know everything about you. So I guess it's not that strange. [chuckles] I guess what I'm saying, I'm confused now, if Chris can see my point of view. [chuckles] [long pause, over one minute] [4:00]

I guess I'm wondering on some level if people are even critical of love, you know. Like I feel like most people they just accept it. Whereas I feel I am unnecessarily critical of it, you know.

THERAPIST: By critical do you mean distrustful?

CLIENT: Yeah. Just evaluative. Like I'm always analyzing, like, okay, so does this mean he-you know. He did that, he said this, does that mean, does this mean, is that[chuckles] Like all the time. And with everyone, you know. Just like I'm always all about, "Okay, what does that mean?" What does that [unclear 4:51] look like I have an agenda, or they're not meeting an expectation, or... [pause]

THERAPIST: Well, what was presented to you as love as a kid didn't really seem like it was.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I'm wondering why I have to keep going back to that, you know. And like, I can stop carrying that burden. [long pause] I guess I feel like I know the-my father's limitations and everything, like I can see him and all these complications, so I don't-like, you know, I can rationalize his behavior, then I don'tBut that doesn't mean that, you know, I feel like-I don't feel bad about it. Like thinking and feeling are like two different things it seems. One doesn't inform the other, or doesn't seem to on the other. [pause] [6:50]

I just don't understand like how the whole machinery up there works [chuckles] sometimes. But mostly I think it happens in a comparative mode I think, like when I'm comparing myself to someone else or other people in a group. I guess when insecurities kick in and I feel I don't have-I didn't have that, I'm only thinking, so I start thinking in that mode. [long pause, over one minute] I guess I was thinking about why-like when I had like a breakdown like two years ago where I didn't go to Chris. Like there was, you know, two options available to me, I could drive south and see him, or drive to Ohio, and I chose to drive to Ohio. I just wonder why I made that choice. I mean, I know. I mean, I can still remember, all the feelings are still there. Of feeling mad at him, and...

THERAPIST: Mad at him for what? [10:00]

CLIENT: You know, just like achieving his dreams and me not even having put my first-like foot on the first step, you know.

THERAPIST: Was this right around the time he got his degree?

CLIENT: Yeah, his job.

THERAPIST: His job. And so it coincided with him getting his new job?

CLIENT: Yeah, everything just, you know, lined up for him. Like he finished his thesis? Well, he got his OPT, and he got a visiting job in Rhode Island. And then that year he was teaching and finishing his thesis, and he defended. And then he also started applying for jobs, went on the job market, as I say, and then found a job in D.C. And yeah, I think it was like January in early 2012, or December 2011. Yeah. And I had like a breakdown in February 2012 I think. [chuckles] So soon after that. Because I was getting only rejections. [chuckles] And I had hurt my back and was... And I wasn't working. Or I was working part-time, so. And he wasn't here. It was all like everything lined up negatively for me. [chuckles] So. And he was busy and I kind of-I created this I feel like lie or whatever around that whole thing, that he's busy because he doesn't like me, or, you know, he's busy because all those things are so much more fulfilling. He's busy doing important things and I'm just, you know, like fluff, or not... You know, my concerns are ridiculous. So I just kind of kept telling myself all that and just shut all the sources of like strength that-from him, from that side, I don't know.

THERAPIST: And he became an object of envy.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. It was like, "Why is everything going right for you? Not that I wish you ill, I would never wish you ill. But really." You know. "Go away, I don't want you." I was really detesting. I mean, I can still feel that way, so I can understand why I didn't go to him. But I feel like I wish I had though. I don't know. [13:00]

THERAPIST: If you had gone to him what would you have said?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't think I should have gone to him. [chuckles] I mean, I didn't even want to live anymore, so like I feel like at that point what I needed was a jolt, and like the guy in Ohio was that in a weird way. But now I-I don't know. I just-

THERAPIST: I was-

CLIENT: No, go ahead.

THERAPIST: I was thinking, it's not-it doesn't seem like you only didn't want to go to him, you wanted to turn away from him, or turn against him.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess maybe to hurt him.

THERAPIST: Yeah, like he betrayed you somehow. It seemed like you felt betrayed.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then you found-you know, and you'll betray him. [14:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, that did feel like betrayal. But why-it's like mostly in my head, because I don't think he intentionally did anything. But then I kind of rationalized that also as like, "Exactly. He didn't do anything on purpose. He didn't do anything. He's just not even-we're so not on the same page here." You know, like, "What I'm going through he has absolutely no idea." And of course he doesn't because I haven't sat down and explained to him. And of course I haven't sat down and explained to him because he's really busy. And yeah, so he probably in some-he actually maybe does think that what he's doing-and you know like if we had an objective jury, unbiased jury, maybe they would also say that yes, his work is more important than your concerns. But... I don't know. [15:10]

But I just felt like, you know, we were not on the same page, and that I was going through a rough patch and I couldn't approach him for whatever reasons because I thought he was unapproachable or he actually was unapproachable. So either way it just was like he could not have saved me. [chuckles] A very bad choice of words but...

THERAPIST: But an interesting choice of words.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Saved you from?

CLIENT: I don't know, from falling off the deep end, dying, or whatever. You know, just resuscitated maybe. I hate that I became so negative, but that's what that was. I just became so impatient, so like anxious. Like it was like the most-yeah, like [chuckles]-like fumbling over just because it's just so like... I can't even-what was my? My language is gone. [chuckles] I can't even describe the despair that I felt those years, like after being just completely lost, completely... [pause] Did not have my head straight, had no way of creating structure. I had no like realistic end goal in mind, and therefore the roads to get to it. I guess mostly just panic and desire and despair, and desire and despair. [chuckles] And only those two things. [pause] [17:50]

And I got a job because it's easy to get a job, and... and then I used it to like hate Chris. Then I'm all like, "Oh yeah, you guys are not paying rent and I am, and I'm working, and I'm denying myself my dream for your sake." And then, you know, that was bad, that-I wish I could take feeling like that away, you know. So that's why I felt like a betrayal, like on his part, of being like... Yeah, I felt like he took something away from me. And my mom too, I felt like she took something away from me.

THERAPIST: What was it that they took away from you? [19:00]

CLIENT: I don't know, my dream, my independence.

THERAPIST: That's your mother's narrative.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, that she-you know, she had a dream of having a doctorate and having, you know, a very different kind of life I imagine of success and stimulation, and her dream was taken away from her when she was forced to marry your father.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And live a life that feels-I think felt to her quite degrading.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: At least demoralizing. But that she was cheated out of something. And it sounds pretty understandable why she felt that way, there were so many cultural expectations and norms. And then who your father was as a person. That she really was cheated out of something. But it seems like you carry that inside of you and then you feel that too about the world.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like you've swallowed that narrative.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I have it, I know it, I just can-appreciate is the wrong word, but understand it I guess in the context of my mom's life. I just don't want it to be like a blanket and cover me as well, [chuckles] you know. I would just like for it to be like a small rag that I can fold and put away, [chuckles] and not to be a blanket.

THERAPIST: It's interesting, right, because the function of a blanket and the function of a rag are very different.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: A blanket is something that keeps you warm, a rag is something that you use to clean up a mess. [21:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you put it away.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I just meant that if it were a blanket it would like be like a shroud over me, and it would be bigger than me, a blanket necessarily is bigger than you. [chuckles] So that shouldn't define me and be like every-all that people see. But it's one of those, you know, like if you don't clean out your pocket, or even if you do clean out your pockets, you have certain things in there, you know, for whatever reason. But everything is nice and shiny, sometimes it can be like rags. [chuckles] You wipe your glasses with it. So. But I mean, yeah, like I mean that, I don't know, whatever, this is a victim's narrative, or whatever. It just should be there like a page in a book. But not the whole book I guess.

And I guess there are like other explanations that can be more empowering. Like, okay, so one explanation that I really should have just stuck with this was that I'm trying to do something very, very different. I'm going to do something that's harder than even a Ph.D., because it's, you know, like not necessarily funded, and like it's-yeah, it's your own path, so obviously there's going to be darkness, you're going to have to assemble your own tools to build that road or whatever it is, a mine or something. [chuckles] And it'll take a few years to figure out. So I wish I was saying all these nice empowerative things for myself instead of all these negative ones. [chuckles] [23:00]

THERAPIST: There's no time like the present.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. But now I'm like, so do I want to say that I wish I hadn't done what I've done? You know, gone down the path that I chose? I don't know. Like that's one of those things, right. Like instead of going to Ohio, instead of trying to sleep with other men, should I have-should I have not done that? Because now I just wonder if that's becoming a bad pattern, or if that's like my source of feeling good about myself, and that probably shouldn't be the only source of feeling good about myself. Or maybe it shouldn't be a source at all. Like I don't know.

THERAPIST: What makes you feel you're continuing to do that?

CLIENT: Well, like with this new guy. [24:00]

THERAPIST: I see. So you feel that you're replicating-you might be repeating something.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know yet. But I have that concern, that worry. [chuckles] [pause] Yeah, like last night we were all hanging out, like the [unclear 24:24]'s initiative, and one-Belinda's going back-going to India for a couple weeks for a wedding, and she's happy, and she was talking about all this stuff. And I was also happy, I was like, "Bring me this, bring me that." And I just was wondering like-I mean, that was a safe space, I haven't reallyBut I just wonder if like I would have felt unsafe there, or I would have felt threatened, or I would have felt insecure. You know, that, "Oh, she gets to go visit her family and I don't have a family." I could have thought that way. But maybe I would have with someone else. But the only reason I was not feeling bad was that I'd seen this guy and I was going to see him again. You know what I mean? Like I had something-I had something. So I just wonder if I'm using that to make myself feel good and... [chuckles] I don't know. Maybe I'm only thinking it. [long pause] [26:00]

Well, I do wonder like why am I with this person, I don't-do I really like them or is it just, you know, physical? And like do I miss Chris, and shouldn't I be with him? And all that. [chuckles] So. [pause] Is he going to turn out to be the guy-like the guy in Ohio, and all that? So. [long pause] I don't know if I'm still cheating and sneaking. But I don't know if I am now that I have my own place. [chuckles] You know? It feels like that though.

THERAPIST: Who are you cheating on?

CLIENT: Chris. [chuckles] [pause] Like I went to Ikea yesterday to get a bed and stuff for this other guy but I was-I got a few things for Chris though. [laughs] So. [28:00]

THERAPIST: What did you get for him?

CLIENT: Oh, just like he wanted port wine glasses, and I broke a wine glass earlier, so I replaced that, and candles and stuff. He has some artwork that he wants to frame, so I'll probably go back to Ikea with this guy and get frames for Chris. [laughs] Because he's not going to do this sort of thing, like drive all the way to Ikea, so. It's not just in my head, my categories. [laughs]

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: Well, you know, like driving to Ikea is not something that Chris would do. Because he'd rather, you know, prepare a lecture, or just read a book or something. Driving to Ikea is not something that I would do either, but I needed stuff so I went. Plus also like I'm always like, "Should I confine myself, or should I be expansive?" You know. That also is one of my contradictions that I probably will have to live with and manage.

THERAPIST: Confine yourself to what?

CLIENT: You know, be like Chris, like, "Oh, I don't do that." You know, "I don't go to some suburbs." I don't, but some limited excursions. Yeah, I just feel very sad sometimes. Am I like debasing love, am I like throwing it away. Do I not-really don't-not see it because-is it staring me right in the eye? You know, like... Yeah. And then I'm like-and then I go back to that moment when he got-when Chris got his job and I lost everything, or felt like I lost everything. I'm like, "But that moment, how can I..." I did not go to Chris, I went to another guy, and that was my way of reviving myself and restarting everything. So yeah, like already it was really bad. But since then I was filled with so much confidence that I did this, this, this and this and this. And you know, like I've tried to, you know, be proactive. And I just feel like that strength could not have come from Chris. You know what I mean? [31:00]

THERAPIST: No actually. When you say that strength couldn't have come from Chris, what do you mean come from Chris?

CLIENT: If I had gone to see Chris.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. I thought you meant that strength couldn't have come from Chris to do those things, not to go to him.

CLIENT: The strength to do those things, yeah.

THERAPIST: That's what you did mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess in my head how I see it is that I did not want to live anymore, I did not-you know, I had like a breakdown. Because I was so disappointed with my writing and-you know, all those negative things, that ball that we've been looking at, right. So there were two options available to me, I could have gone and seen Chris, I could have gone to Ohio. This is all the way that I'm thinking about this situation. I chose to go to Ohio and, you know, sleep with Graham, you know, and I did that. And since then it's been like in my head I've tried to like become independent, and you know, sexual independence was one manifestation of independence.

And I feel like-you know, that led me to Orley, and he treated me badly and all that. But despite that I've become-I'm very confident, I've become very confident, and I've lined up all the things that I wanted to do and I went about doing those things. So I feel likeSo when I think now that I think about love and Chris, and like I feel guilty, I feel horrible, I feel bad. But I look back on the scenario and I go, "Well, this was the only way out for me, this was-" Or it's not the only-it was the way that I chose to get out, and it worked for me. Had I gone to Chris I don't know if it would have been any different, it would have been the same muck, you know. Like the same muck of-again, in my head probably, not in reality-of me trying to tell him something and him not listening, and... Yeah. [33:20]

THERAPIST: So are you trying to figure out if it was an act of freedom or an act of rebellion?

CLIENT: No, I mean, that wasn't right or wrong. What I'm doing right now... I don't know, I'm wondering, that's all. I mean, I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing and if it's right or wrong, if breaking up with Chris was right or wrong. Or if what I did back then even was right or wrong. Was it wrong to go and see Graham? [pause] I guess I want you to say, "No it wasn't. See, it was the only way out." [chuckles] [pause]

THERAPIST: That somehow I could make it okay.

CLIENT: [chuckles] Yeah, I-yeah. I do feel guilty about it, right, so.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I want some of the guilt to go away.

THERAPIST: So my saying that would alleviate some guilt.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because you feel guilty about-you feel like you've betrayed Chris, is that the guilt? [35:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] Could there have been like a completely new way of looking at all of this? [pause]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Yeah? Like what?

THERAPIST: Oh, I don't know what it is, but there can always be a new way.

CLIENT: [chuckles] Am I too Chris-oriented?

THERAPIST: That's interesting that you say that, because I was thinking that Chris is always the reference point.

CLIENT: Yeah. But that's why also I sometimes think it's good to take a break, or be distant I guess. It's sort of healthy.

THERAPIST: Well, that doesn't matter. I mean, it matters in some respects, but psychologically it continues to be a reference point.

CLIENT: Oh. Well, [do you think I'll always be looking at it? 36:27]?

THERAPIST: I hope not.

CLIENT: Yeah? You see only bad things coming from that.

THERAPIST: Um, I wouldn't say bad per se, but it's a particular relationship you have toward him that there's no-that he holds a very-he holds a place in your mind where there's sort of no agency, because either you're toward him, away from him, or against him. There's no agency, there's no choice in that.

CLIENT: Mm.

THERAPIST: You're pulling to break away from him, but there's no choice. [37:00]

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: WhenBy definition, if he's a reference point to everything that you do.

CLIENT: Mm. Is he like a pole and I'm tied to him, or...

THERAPIST: Oh, that's interesting. That wasn't what came to my mind, but I guess.

CLIENT: Like it's always going to be around him, like-or like, you know, he's like-I'm like a satellite.

THERAPIST: I think that's how it feels. And you asked if that's a problem. Maybe.

CLIENT: Oh. [pause]

THERAPIST: You feel a pull toward him that's so complicated. And you're not really sure if that pull should let you know that actually you should be with him, or if that pull is about something else that's not about sort of how you should guide your future decisions. [38:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] What do you mean future decisions?

THERAPIST: Like is he the-is he someone that you want to be with and maybe marry someday, or not marry someday, just be with. Or is this about something that's sort of more about your past, and about some sort of psychological problem you're trying to work out, and not about how you should live your future.

CLIENT: Well, I hope it's the future.

THERAPIST: But you're wonder[ing]-but this is the question you're posing to yourself. Even the question should you be with him or not is about that. Like how do you make sense of this pull that you feel toward him.

CLIENT: Mm. Well, more than pull it was just like the orientation problem. [chuckles] Like sometimes feeling like he's everywhere, and like... You know, like his way is the right way, his ideology is the right ideology, his judgment is the right judgment. Being absolved of that would be nice. [chuckles] Yeah.

THERAPIST: Isn't one usually absolved of a sin?

CLIENT: [chuckles] Yeah, I guess. I was thinking of it as more like a power.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Like a potion. So then you kind of take an antidote or something. [chuckles] [pause] That's what I mean, like [laughs] it's just I don't understand how people... [40:30]

THERAPIST: It sounds like when you were in Ikea he was very much on your mind.

CLIENT: No, it's not that. That's what it is, like I'm thinking, okay, when are the moments when he's not a reference point? I feel like when I work, I hope that when I work, because that's a moment of thinking, you know, and he is not that much influence on this particular mode of thinking, of, you know, creativity and writing and reading. That's-he's not influenced that to sort of the most extent, big extent. Okay, so but then when I'm like free time, okay, hang out, then I'm like, "Okay, I'll do this because Chris would do it. Okay, I'll do it because Chris would never do this." [laughs] So you know what I mean? Like that. But I guess if you've been with someone for such a long time that will always be the case. I mean, you have to wait seven years for that to go away.

THERAPIST: Why seven?

CLIENT: Like I don't know, wait for seven years. [chuckles] Maybe a little more than that, but still.

THERAPIST: I think it's like that not because you were with him for so long, but because that's what your relationship was about, that was part of your relationship.

CLIENT: What do you mean? I'm judging things?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I don't think that's a product of the fact that you were together, I think it was a product of the kind of way you were together.

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay. People don't do that? People don't sit around and go, "I hate this. Oo, I love that"? [42:00]

THERAPIST: I'm... Something happened. You were talking about would he approve of this or would he disapprove of this.

CLIENT: No, but you said that that was our relationship, so I said-

THERAPIST: The approval part, not the thinking of that part, that was the point I was making.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Not that you would not think of him, but the way you thought about him, or the way you wondered how he would assess things, that's particular to your relationship, not your thinking about him.

CLIENT: Oh, okay.

THERAPIST: But the fact that you bought him things seems interesting.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: It's not interesting, it's boring.

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: It's a yawner.

CLIENT: Well, the guy that I was with, I was telling him that I broke this guy's wine glass and I'm going to get him another one. And he was like, "Well, that seems transactional." And I was like, "Yeah, that's the way that I am," or-I don't know. [43:00]

THERAPIST: I'm very curious about that. But I was going to ask, because I was a few minutes late, can I make it up to you like on Wednesday?

CLIENT: Sure, okay.

THERAPIST: We can just go a few minutes longer on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: 9:50, right?

THERAPIST: 9:50, right. And I have to go a few [overtalk].

CLIENT: Yeah, no.

THERAPIST: Okay, that would be great.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I will see you then.

CLIENT: Yeah, see you then.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: Bye.

THERAPIST: Bye.

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