TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[beginning at 3:20]

CLIENT: So how long does this continue?

THERAPIST: What's this?

CLIENT: The therapy.

THERAPIST: For as long as you'd like.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: No, just I feel tired.

THERAPIST: Tired of?

CLIENT: Oh, just the whole process of talking.

THERAPIST: What would you like to do instead?

CLIENT: I guess make some money. Yeah, I guess do something monetarily productive. I don't know, I feel-it brings me down to like-sometimes the idea of going in and blabbing about like emotions and feelings. So I feel like I want a break or something. I want to stop thinking in that mode about, you know, "What is wrong with me." Because that's the mode I feel like I've been pushed into, or I find myself, or while doing therapy. Because you have to pose it in that way: "What is wrong?" You know. So I'd like to not look at what is wrong for a change. Not necessarily look at what is right, although that would be nice, but like make some things clearer. [pause] I guess it's one of my anxieties, that, you know, I want to do something productive. And I'm always wondering if I'm doing that enough.

THERAPIST: At times you don't know if this is productive? [6:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess because I have to focus on what's wrong, and just the idea of it brings me down. [pause] I mean, really, aren't we supposed to think about what's wrong? Or is there a different approach that I don't know about?

THERAPIST: I guess I'm notThere's a lot of ways of thinking about what we do together.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Looking at what's wrong is a way of looking at it.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'd like to know what other ways there are.

THERAPIST: Well, I guess to start with I'm curious about like sort of why you feel that way. What about the process makes you feel that we're looking at what's wrong?

CLIENT: That's just my-that's just the impression I have, general impression like. I have to talk about what's bothering me. And then, you know, the idea of, "Okay, I have to go and talk about what's bothering me for an hour." So it's like, "I don't want to do that. I just want to be silent, or happy, or make money." [chuckles] But I don't know. So... [pause]

THERAPIST: You don't feel you could also talk about what's good?

CLIENT: I guess. Like what would that accomplish? [8:00]

THERAPIST: Feeling good.

CLIENT: Well, okay. But I'm most clear about what food then. [chuckles]

THERAPIST: That's what makes you feel good?

CLIENT: [chuckles] Well, yeah, among other things I guess.

THERAPIST: Well, why food?

CLIENT: I don't know. Just I like food. Maybe I like to cook. And it could be that I'm avoiding what's bothering me because it's, you know, it's still kind of messy, although I'm trying not to think of it as messy. [pause] I'm feeling other people are on a track and I'm not, and I hate that I compare myself, and I don't feel confident to not compare. [pause] It's just like weird. I guess I should hang up those-myBut I try, I mean, I try to arrange meeting, but, you know, people are so far apart, you know. [pause] Like other writers who are like, you know, broke like me, and I'm not on that trajectory of-I'm not, you know, making money, and you know, like either destroying the world or trying to save it. [10:00]

It's just like I just want to like have all these people standing around to fucking yell at them, like, "Get out of my head!" You know, like, "Screw you guys! You're only fucking engineers," and whatever they are, "You guys are academics." I hate them. [chuckles] And I'm so mad. I want to like slap everyone, and be like, you know, "Go boil your head."

THERAPIST: Go what your?

CLIENT: Go boil your-I don't know. I don't know, I'm trying to curse them but I'm not very creative at curses. [laughs] [pause] Yeah, I just think that is one of my big anxieties.

THERAPIST: I'm having a little hard time hearing you today. You're disappointed with...

CLIENT: No, I'm saying that's one of my big anxieties right now.

THERAPIST: Money?

CLIENT: Money, but not just money, you know. Like the fucking trajectory everyone is on. And like I want a very different trajectory that like hardly anyone else around me is. I'm wondering if that's the problem, maybe I should just surround myself with people who are on the same trajectory as me.

THERAPIST: Isn't that true of graduate school?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Graduate school, isn't that true of graduate school?

CLIENT: Yeah, but like I don't hang out with my colleagues. And that's what I'm saying, maybe I ought to. I ought to compare-I don't mean compare. Bad idea, compare. [laughs] Because some of them are making waves, or starting to make waves. It's a dangerous [set?] where you compare yourself with anyone. [12:15]

THERAPIST: It is.

CLIENT: [pause] But that's like that's how I recognize myself, like in a line with everyone else. And it's like you're all [chuckles] rounded up for questioning at a police station or something, you know, that lineup. A rabbi and priest and a chicken or something like that. I mean, how can you evaluate yourself in isolation, you know, that's just-I don't know if that's possible. [pause] I mean, the me bubble or whatever. I try to think of it that way. Think of what I'm working on and that being my world and my bubble, but... I don't know, hanging out at an event or something that bubble seems very precarious, I don't know. [pause]

THERAPIST: You're frustrated today.

CLIENT: Yeah. [chuckles]

THERAPIST: And it sounds like you're not sure even what to be frustrated at, maybe therapy's the problem. [14:00]

CLIENT: [laughs] No, I said-you know, so that mode-my modus operandi is I think of that, I just have to sit here and blab about problems. So anticipating this hour of me blabbing is kind of in some way afraid of it, you know. It's really like a big block. [pause] I mean, I'm trying other different things that are, you know, that are happening, and I'm trying to understand if I can learn something from them.

Like this weekend this guy that I'm seeing, like he kind of forced me to come and hang out with his friends. I didn't really want to go, because I think I saw a photo of his friend on Facebook and I was like, "Ugh! He just does not look good." [laughs] I'm like, "I don't want to hang out with him. I'm sure he's not interesting, and, you know, he's like stupid or whatever, and he's just corporate, you know, making money. So I was just like dragged out, and then it was in a bar. And the moment I walk in his friend was all like, "Oh, hello!" And, you know, he's like hugging me, and he's pretty-he's stoned, and he's drinking. But his girlfriend was so nice to me, and they're all-both of them were very nice to me. And his friend was acting completely crazy. He was standing up and dancing. And, you know, I'm also drinking as fast as I can so I feel less embarrassed, and you know. [16:00]

So then I'm like, "This wasn't that bad at all. I'm having fun." You know, like the music is good, and the guy's acting completely crazy, and, you know, obviously it's fun to see a drunk person make a fool of themselves in a public place. And I'm getting that for free, you know, free entertainment. Plus I'm earning brownie points of some sort for hanging out with his friend.

But then I realize, you know, like he and I are very different in this way, and he's very social and he always wants to go out and have a drink with his friends, and I'm all like, you know, stay at home, watch a documentary. I'm very like Chris, you know, like cook something, stay at home. But it's not just that, it's more-I guess more about like my anxiety with people. I'm so judgmental, and I like judge people even before meeting them. And I put them in tight boxes, and I don't really want to interact with them. And then, you know, being forced to do so, or being forced to hang out with people I would never hang out with. I wonder what like life is teaching me, or what I should learn from this. Maybe I should be more open, and I should drink more often? [chuckles] I should be less uptight. Yeah. [pause] [17:50]

But I was uptight just the next day again because I had to go to an event that Chris organized, and it was full of, you know, like students, or whoever, like people... [sighs] ...like on the other side of the spectrum who, you know, are concerned about the world, and not businessmen, or they want to see the world, or whatever. But, you know, still academics who ask elongated questions and see very-yeah, justAnd then he was like-I thought he and I could have dinner together, you know, like at his place or something, but he made plans to go out with some like some academic-looking people. And I just-the room was mirrored, so I just kind of hid behind a wall while he was talking going, "Ugh, academics." And he's like, "So you should come along," and I was like, "No." So I don't know.

I guess I'm just trying to understand, like I'm still very shy, and I still feel unwilling to give people a chance just because I fear they will judge me, or I will compare myself to them and get depressed. But still I'm like avoiding people a lot, I avoid people a lot, and I feel like-and then I complain about not having friends. [chuckles] Yeah, I guess just very, very judgmental, even like when I was hanging out with my women friends yesterday. Like I've judged some of them very harshly earlier, just because like, "Ugh, they're so-" It's like Chris and I would sit and judge them, like, "Oh yeah, that woman is so uncultured," and, you know, "How could she show this movie and say that thing? She's just so stupid, she doesn't know anything," and you know. [laughs] But I'm now hanging out with her and it's like I feel so bad about saying those negative things about her, or thinking those negative things. You know, like you just look at people and you're like, "Glad we're not him." [chuckles] And then when I do get to know them it's just like, "Wow, they have all these good qualities and I was stupid to avoid them," you know, just because they, you know, look fat, or are fat or something. [20:30]

THERAPIST: It sounds like you learn from those experiences. It sounds like as much as you judge them you open yourself up to getting to know them, and you find yourself reevaluating your perception of them.

CLIENT: Yeah, but then I'm just a stupid-like my head is so fucked up. Like I just think negative thoughts about this experience. I think, "Oh, I was so stupid to avoid them. I'm so messed up. Why am I so messed up? Why am I so judgmental? Why am I horrible? I'm a horrible person." You know, and it's that. Or it's-what else? There was something else. I've forgotten now. [sighs] [pause] Yeah, I just feel dismal, you know. And-or, you know, it's a question about-you know, relationship question, which is the big-other big [unclear 21:32]. And like, "Therefore I should not be with Chris who is so judgmental." But then I'm like, "Yeah, okay so, but he went down and hung out with these people." Okay, and he came back all-you know, the way that he is. "Yeah, I don't know these people. Still after four years of seeing them I still don't know anyone's name." I'll just ask, you know, who he went out to dinner with, and he's like, "You know, the guy who looks like that, and the other who looks like that." And so, I mean, you know, it's a little-I don't know what adjective you would use for him, but I'm like "being judgmental," you know. [22:00]

THERAPIST: Um, because he doesn't know people's names, or you were making this a separate point?

CLIENT: Because he doesn't bother to get to know people personally. Oh, I shouldn't say it like so harshly, but you know, like-yeah, he doesn't-he didn't get to know them. Didn't have the occasion to, or the reason to, or just basically didn't bother to. [pause] So then I'm like this other guy, he's far more like, you know, accepting and social, so I should learn something from him. If not determine who I should be with, then at least to learn from him to be nicer and more accepting. [chuckles] But I wish I could turn like the negativity off and just be thinking and be happy that I'm getting to learn this important lesson. Instead I just spend a lot of time being ashamed of what I did earlier, you know.

THERAPIST: You do. You do spend a lot of time being ashamed.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When you say focusing on what's wrong, there's a few ways in which you can interpret that sentence. You can say what's sort of wrong with you, as if there's some flaw and you're learning about flaws.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Wrong could also be what doesn't feel right. What feels wrong, or what feels bad. Which is different than, you know, a problem with you per se, or a problem with your character, and more about how you're feeling and how you're not feeling as good as you'd like to feel.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I think those two get confused in your mind. [24:00]

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: Feeling badly and feeling like you're a bad person.

CLIENT: Yeah, they're fused. So if I feel bad isn't that-like shouldn't I take responsibility for that and the cause of it, and therefore there's something wrong with me? [pause] Yeah, I don't know, it's like-it's very-something I would love to understand this, or get some resolution. Because like again, you know, maybe the friends were just doing this thing for that guy. Definitely the girl seemed to be doing it for him. [laughs] But she's like laughing, "So what do you do?" And, you know, I'm very-you know, there's no other question that makes me more anxious than that. But still, you know, I was like, "You know, fuck this. I'm just going to be all like whatever, I don't care." So I just told her, "Yeah, I'm working on a book." And she's like, "Wow, this is amazing!" And, you know, like, "So very few people do that and follow their dreams."

So like, I mean, I don't know. Like a lot of people say that I'm just like, "Yeah, whatever, bull shit," you know. Maybe because I don't know how to take compliments and maybe I'm just like, "You know, they're making it up." I can never, you know, believe-take this on face value. But I don't know, maybe I was slowly getting drunk or something and I just wanted to-like wanted that, you know. I wanted that acceptance at that moment for some reason, and it felt really nice. [26:00]

But I guess what I'm really saying is that-so people see that, people see... the worth in me, or in what I'm doing. But I just kind of shun it and don't use that as-really use is the wrong word. But yeah, just use it to feel good about myself, or use that as some kind of capital instead of just money. Because, you know, I have come to terms with the fact that I won't have money until, you know, I finish the book, even then. It's not going to happen right away, I have to live cheaply.

And it's okay, I'll do that. But it just doesn't like... It doesn't back me up, it doesn't protect me when I'm feeling lonely, or feeling insecure when I'm in a room full of people and all I see is this guy does this, that guy does that. He makes this much and he makes that much. They're all concerned about the world and the environment, but, you know, they are nine to five, and they do X or Y. You know, they do-they make money. That's all I think about, is just like-it's kind of depressing, and it's like a cul de sac, I can't really go anywhere from there.

THERAPIST: You're talking a lot about money today.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm thinking of starting a cleaning service. [laughs] But just, you know, go over to my friends' places on weekends and clean like for fifty bucks or something. I guess I'm getting anxious for next month and all that. And I guess my mom will want money again, so.

THERAPIST: Anxious about next month. Why next month?

CLIENT: It's just, you know, the next and the next and the next.

THERAPIST: Not this month? I guess I'm confused.

CLIENT: Oh, this month is done, I paid my rent and my [inaudible 28:25].

THERAPIST: I see, you're paid-oh, by the way, if you can pay me the co-pay for August. Talk about bills.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that your-I think that my-

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Did my assistant give you the statement?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. But anyway, so here, here's another bill if you can pay me too.

CLIENT: Yeah. You're going to have to wait until next week because my checkbooks aren't-

THERAPIST: That's fine. Did that feel good for me to ask you for money too?

CLIENT: No, I know, I already got your statement last week.

THERAPIST: That doesn't mean that it makes you feel good.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: To get a statement or another bill. [29:00]

CLIENT: Well, it is what it is, right. I mean, in the sense that you already performed your service, so [laughs] obviously.

THERAPIST: It sounds quite mechanical.

CLIENT: No, no, it's, you know, in the sense that we've already had the sessions for all this. It's sort of like I'm not paying your forward, right, I'm-

THERAPIST: No, August and then September, but September-you know, I usually say at the end of the following month, so September isn't quite due yet, so.

CLIENT: Yeah, so that's what I mean, like it's stuff already-life already lived, so.

THERAPIST: That's true.

CLIENT: Yeah, but you know, like... I don't know, these anxieties will remain, so.

THERAPIST: Your mom was paying your rent for some-for a month or so, and you started paying it again?

CLIENT: Yeah. So she got her-so she, you know, found a job. It's a really weird job, she works at a grocery store over in like, I don't really know. But it's, you know, a really, really lousy place. So she got her first paycheck and she was like, "What the hell?" You know. "This is actually not-like pittance." Like it's like $500 a month, so obviously it's not going to be able to cover her rent. But she was very depressed and like... I don't really see her that way, so like I, you know, helped her with her rent money, so.

THERAPIST: How do you feel about having to pay two rents?

CLIENT: Well, it's unsustainable with my income, so. I tried to find a new job but I had a bad experience. So I went and interviewed with this woman, this Eastern European woman, and-not that I'm a racist or anything, but I've just had like weird exchanges with Eastern European people. But so she-like she wanted me to come in for like two days a week, and I just was like, "No, I don't know if I want to do that right now," because every day is accounted for in terms of writing. So was willing to go-like pay me a much higher rate than what she'd advertised. And then I was like, "Let's do freelance." And so she called me one weekend and got a lot of ideas from me. And then I was like, "Yeah, so my freelance rate to match my previous jobs the pay rate is this, so we can negotiate." But she's just so rude, she just got up, she was like, "Thank you for coming in. Good bye." I was like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" [laughs] You know.

So I just was like, you know, I've spent-so at the interview I gave you so many ideas, we talked for like an hour. And, you know, I wake up at eight a.m. on a Saturday and I like walk all over to Augusta and sit with you for two hours. I give you all these ideas, and draw charts for how you can redesign your website. This is not-and this comes really free of charge? Well, she's doing a startup. I just felt fucked up by that, and like, you know.

THERAPIST: And I think you're really angry at your mother.

CLIENT: No, I'm angry at that woman.

THERAPIST: You wouldn't have had to go there if it weren't for your mother.

CLIENT: No, it's not like-I don't think I'm that angry at my mom.

THERAPIST: I think you're angry at your mother.

CLIENT: [chuckles] Well... I don't know. I can't really, you know, smack her around, can I? [laughs]

THERAPIST: Maybe in your mind you can.

CLIENT: No. I could always smack myself around, not her.

THERAPIST: What does that achieve? [33:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. It's something that I have to come to terms with. It'll take me-clearly it is taking a while, but it has to be done. Like it has to-this is something on my agenda, because I don't know if she will, you know, be self-sufficient on her own, you know.

THERAPIST: I thought she was getting a teaching certification or...

CLIENT: Yeah, she's actually getting her Master's. But apparently this semester she is writing her thesis and cannot-her teacher suggested to not work. [chuckles] But I think her next semester maybe she will have something. I don't know, I've suggested things to her, like substitute teaching, I don't know. And maybe that'll work out.

THERAPIST: So she still gets to do some extra work on her own with school so you will have to do less? You can't do as much work?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, she doesn't want to work because she wants to spend time on her studies, so.

CLIENT: No, she is working, she is working at a grocery store, it's just that it doesn't pay enough at all, so. [chuckles] I don't know, like I guess I can use up my savings, or borrow money from Chris. [chuckles] He's going to have to get a big hefty check at the end of all this. But yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, I think you're angry at your mother, and I think it's not-I think it's causing you problems, that anger. [35:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think it's leading you to feel-to displace the anger onto other people.

CLIENT: Like who?

THERAPIST: Like this woman.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, what she did was weird, and maybe even wrong, you know.

THERAPIST: It may have been, but what does she owe you? You know-

CLIENT: Well, I don't owe her anything either.

THERAPIST: I know. But she's a stranger, and so-

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And your mother's is not.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I still think that what she did wasn't right, she should have been-

THERAPIST: Oh no, I'm not arguing about it.

CLIENT: She should have offered to pay me for those two hours.

THERAPIST: I'm not arguing with that.

CLIENT: And it would have just been, you know, like a little bit of money, but still, that is the principal person. And it is not right to get other people's ideas and then be like, "Oh wait, this is not going to work because your rate is too high." That's wrong, that's just cheating. [36:00]

THERAPIST: And now I think that you feel your mom's stealing from you too.

CLIENT: No. I mean, I don't think so. I don't think that she and I have like that different, you know, like my money is completely my money. You know, like I don't think of her that way. Or I feel I shouldn't.

THERAPIST: I'm not suggesting this is the only feeling you have towards your mother.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like no. [long pause] I mean, I guess I was just wondering that I would be able to take up something part time, but... And I could do that like one weekend, one day or something. I just thought maybe it would be better to get like a design position only because I could work at a much higher rate. But I don't know, that's all kind of negotiations, you know. [pause] I guess just like being monetarily precarious can make you feel precarious in other ways, and I just feel like that's not right. Like I should be strong in other ways and just learn to isolate monetary precariousness. You know, that it's not a reflection on how weak I am in any other way. [pause] [39:00]

Like I guess I know, I guess you're saying I'm angry with my mother, that's why I'm trying to isolate like... Like she is not leaning on me other ways that much. Like, you know, she can do most everything on her own, it's just this, you know, money thing. It's a strain on my finances, but it shouldn't be on me emotionally or on my time or anything like that. Well maybe my time.

THERAPIST: It is a strain on your time, that's what you were talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's not simply that you like buy less clothes, or buy fewer clothes.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: That it's sort of down to the bone. [40:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I think for next month I can try and negotiate with her and be like, "Can you pay half?" You know, so.

THERAPIST: I think it's also the emotional meaning of your feeling she's asking you to bear the burden of something that you can barely hold. I mean, if you're like a strong man who can bench press, you know, 150 lbs. and someone gives you a 30 lb. to hold, no big deal. But if you could only hold 30 lbs. and someone gives you a 35 lb. bag that's a problem.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I mean, that's what I mean, like it's just financial, that shouldn't be emotional, right.

THERAPIST: But it has emotional implications.

CLIENT: But why?

THERAPIST: Because you have some basic necessities you need to pay for. [41:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think with your mom you feel like there's a fine line between can't and won't.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, she's not like paralyzed in bed and can't move and cannot get a job.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That, you know, she could try to get a higher paying job, she could substitute teach. So it's unclear, can she not or won't she? It's not as clear. It would be more clear if again she was paralyzed and she literally couldn't do anything.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, I'm asking, I keep asking her why can't she do substitute teaching.

THERAPIST: Right, but what I'm saying is it's different, her-she's asking you to do something, rather than it being inevitable.

CLIENT: Hm. Well, we'll see. I think she also picks up like the path of least resistance, or you know, like the grocery store's right down the street from her and they're hiring, and she went there and she got the job, so. Other things require more effort, more planning, more organization, which I guess she isn't able to do for some reason. Because there's too many bits and pieces to that and she just can't get it all in one row.

THERAPIST: Well, she managed to get into the process of completing a Master's degree.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That requires a lot of organization.

CLIENT: That's true. Yeah, I don't understand why this thing is hard for her. I don't know. [pause] I guess she wants to be taken care of maybe.

THERAPIST: Hm, mm hm.

CLIENT: And she wants like her child to support her and for her not to worry about money. So. I think she also has like emotional baggage from her childhood. She's told me that it's like she didn't feel like her mom was very caring or nurturing or loving.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Like when she was in labor or something her mom was like, "Don't hold me, hold the bed." She remembers that as being-she was very despondent over it. She likes to joke that I am her mother. [chuckles] In the sense that, you know, like I order her around. Or maybe even in the sense of, you know, saying that in a sense I take care of her, or try to.

THERAPIST: Or that you're obligated to her.

CLIENT: Well, whatever it is. The time is up happily, so.

THERAPIST: [unclear]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yeah. Okay. Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care.

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