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THERAPIST: I'm so sorry you've been having such a hard time. (pause) [00:01:11] It was really, really bad [...] (inaudible at 00:01:12) yesterday.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: What happened? (pause)

CLIENT: It felt like my heart was breaking. (pause) [00:02:04]

THERAPIST: Ouch. I'm so sorry it felt that way. (pause) [00:03:15] Is it helpful for me to ask you questions about it?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Was it worse yesterday than it had been before?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: About the same?

CLIENT: At least the same as the day before. (pause) [00:04:25]

THERAPIST: Mostly heartbroken in the same [...] (inaudible at 00:04:27)

CLIENT: Uh-huh. (pause) [00:05:00]

THERAPIST: You felt mostly sad and left alone, rejected, angry, uncared for.

CLIENT: Overwhelmed.

THERAPIST: Is this more now like you're showing me how you've been feeling as opposed to dealing with something new?

CLIENT: Uh-huh. [00:06:03] I think I'm showing myself how I'm feeling, too.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm imagining it's easier to do knowing I will be more supportive about it, as we were talking about on the phone.

CLIENT: I think talking on the phone was very important. It's nice that you are going to change a little bit of your [...] (inaudible at 00:07:18). The whole phone call was like a very beautiful gift. [00:07:50]

THERAPIST: (pause) I'm glad, partly because it conveyed, not that I take it seriously, but that what's going on with you matters to me.

CLIENT: And we both seem to be less comfortable in person. (pause)

THERAPIST: You mean I'm more comfortable than some?

CLIENT: Uh-huh. [00:09:00]

THERAPIST: I think there's something about my physically being in the same room.

CLIENT: Yeah, there's like body language and body position and facial expressions and noises that you don't hear when you're on the phone. Also it feels like it's a different kind of interaction, like special, like outside. (pause) It's like you're less self-conscious. (pause) [00:10:32]

THERAPIST: I'm sorry you're not feeling more at ease.

CLIENT: I think you don't feel at ease, either. (pause) I don't feel at ease. I have butterflies in my stomach with any interaction. I don't know that one is at ease and one isn't.

THERAPIST: Does it feel like my being uncomfortable makes you more so?

CLIENT: Yeah. You don't seem uncomfortable. I get a purer sense of who you are not in person. There is less hesitation. (pause) [00:12:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I can imagine myself being less at work.

CLIENT: [...] (inaudible at 00:12:40)

THERAPIST: Well it is in anything. (pause) I guess what I had in mind is that I guess I'm probably working harder when you're here to think about what's going on. I didn't mean it in the sense of my making an effort to keep more of a professional distance or something like that, more so like [...] (inaudible at 00:13:49). (pause) [00:14:35]

CLIENT: It's hard to feel focused with my eyes open, in general. All of my senses get less acute, not especially my vision, though. (pause) [00:15:27]

THERAPIST: I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean except your vision?

CLIENT: Yeah, except my vision.

THERAPIST: I wasn't sure if you meant that, in a way, you see some things more clearly with your eyes closed.

CLIENT: I do. Yeah. One kind of vision is enhanced. (pause) [00:16:38] Are you recording?

THERAPIST: It's certainly fine by me if you'd rather keep your eyes closed.

CLIENT: There is too much stuff to look at to keep my eyes closed. (pause) [00:17:29] You were supposed to think about a couple of things. One of them was you are needing for me to be frustrated.

THERAPIST: I did think about that and I decided I'm not. I don't have an intention to frustrate you. I certainly wouldn't like to think so, but I think it's also untrue. I think when I'm doing something that's frustrating, not answering a question or not being more forthcoming, I know that I can be very frustrating; but I don't think that's why I'm doing it. [00:19:25]

CLIENT: There's no agenda to get me to feel bad feelings? (pause)

THERAPIST: No. I don't think I have an intent to get you to feel bad feelings, but you know the one... I guess I'm sort of in a way wanting you to feel bad feelings, but I think I almost need to be explicit about it. While I think you're really sad about [...] (inaudible at 00:20:34) it's hard to feel, which isn't exactly my saying I want you to feel bad. It would be more like that. [00:20:43]

CLIENT: Yeah, and that's separate from... You aren't acting in a way that brings that up. (pause) It's very hard for me to not talk to somebody when I'm having a strong feeling, as my first reaction to the feeling. (pause) Like before I really completely feel the feeling, I'm already in the process of reaching out. (pause) [00:22:24]

THERAPIST: Are you in part putting your finger on how I'm different from you here?

CLIENT: In how you deal with your feelings?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know that I was thinking about me versus you; but, yeah, me versus you and other people and other ways of being. (pause) [00:23:37]

THERAPIST: Let me know if you want help talking about sexual thoughts and feelings that came up the other day. We talked about it some on the phone and my impression is that it is important but difficult to talk about. I don't know if it's something that you're not wanting to talk about or are having difficulty in bringing it up, but if you want me to help with that let me know. [00:24:30]

CLIENT: I would like to have sex with you. It doesn't come up that much while I'm here. It's too scary or something. I would like to be in union with you in other ways, too, and sex is one of them. It's almost like I want to merge with my body. I guess part of what's frustrating is that it seems like you have to exercise a lot of restraint in your job for some reason. [00:25:41] Maybe that's not true and maybe I'm just making it up, but that idea makes me really frustrated. (pause)

THERAPIST: Do you mean restraint in talking about my own thoughts and feelings?

CLIENT: No, in like having sex with me.

THERAPIST: Oh. You mean like my job prevents me from doing that?

CLIENT: Uh-huh, and probably lots of other things. [00:26:32]

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:26:33)

CLIENT: Maybe. I don't know. I guess I have the other things, too, but I don't have your job; like that's the way in which we are unequal in my imaginary world. I don't know if these actual feelings bother me in a different way from wanting to be intimate with you in general. Maybe they did at first. [00:27:25]

THERAPIST: Didn't you say that our having sex is like an integral part of being very close...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Very intimate, very much together, which would include in other ways, too.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. (pause) [00:28:30] Yeah, like... I don't know.

THERAPIST: There is one kind of intensity to the sex and other kinds of ways that are not exactly the same kinds of intensity, but other ways of being close? [00:28:51]

CLIENT: Yeah, like lying on top of each other and not having sex. (pause) Lying down, in general. (pause) [00:30:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess that's something else that you do and I don't.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. That's dumb.

THERAPIST: I should be lying down as well. It's dumb that I'm not. (pause)

CLIENT: Feels dumb. (pause) [00:31:20] I think it would be really good, the sex. I think it would make sense. It would fit.

THERAPIST: It would feel like a pretty natural part of the kind of intimacy...

CLIENT: That we have.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:31:53)

CLIENT: We would know what to do. (pause) [00:32:48] It seems unfair sometimes to me that monogamy is the way it is. I talk about wanting to have sex with other men and not having done it. And having that discussion with Jeremy and having Jeremy say, "That's really dumb. Why should we separate for a little bit so you can experience another man?" I still don't think that would have been a bad idea. I think I would have still realized how special Jeremy is and wanted to be with him. (pause) [00:34:09] But it seems stifling.

THERAPIST: It sounds like it seems quite artificial, like this is as dumb as me not wanting to have...

CLIENT: Yeah. More dumb.

THERAPIST: Even more dumb.

CLIENT: If you can imagine that.

THERAPIST: It's difficult. (pause) [00:35:02]

CLIENT: My parents aren't really affectionate with each other in a sexual way, but I don't know. I don't really know, and I mean that. I guess I've only seen them kiss like three times or something.

THERAPIST: That's not very many.

CLIENT: They don't really kiss. They don't really touch each other in public and by public, I mean like around me and my brother. But they're extremely affectionate and they kiss us all of the time and play with each other physically; but it's never like... [00:36:19]

THERAPIST: What's the chemistry like between them physically?

CLIENT: It's very respectful, like I respect your distance or your space. Their chemistry is incredibly playful and teasing, like they'll sort of... I don't know. It's kind of like a children's show or something. They'll put their hands on each other and they'll like bump each other and sort of push and pull, but there's never full frontal contact. That's sort of the way things are with that generation and older generations of Indian people. [00:37:53]

THERAPIST: It's like G to PG.

CLIENT: Yeah. And when you go in for a hug with a member of the opposite sex... Jeremy had to learn this and he learned it really well, it's sort of like a side hug. Even with my dad sometimes, but sometimes...

THERAPIST: You don't sort of give the person your whole body in a way.

CLIENT: I do. I realized early on how important being physical was to me, but other people don't. I remember it being every stressful for my parents when my friends' parents were the types of people who greeted each other by kissing on the cheek. My mom will never do it. She will make a scene and turn away and my dad will do it. It's come up many times and it's very funny. [00:39:05]

THERAPIST: Even if it's sort of air-kissing on the cheek?

CLIENT: Yeah. My mom is like, "Eww. Eww." Yeah, my mom is there are a lot of conservative Brahman principles that drive a lot of what she does. Like she doesn't share food or drinks with anybody, even my dad.

THERAPIST: Like she wouldn't say, "Honey, try this on my plate. It's really good."

CLIENT: No. She would let you try it first before she ate it. Her parents are the same way and her mom's parents are the same way. My dad isn't so much like that. [00:40:17]

THERAPIST: And not you so much?

CLIENT: (chuckles) No. No, I'm the complete opposite. Maybe in response partially to that, but Jeremy and I will eat from the same dishes and just the level of intimacy that I show with Jeremy seems really different.

THERAPIST: We have just a few minutes. (pause) [00:41:22]

CLIENT: It's always seemed really important to me to touch. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's like in a way you respect it, but in a way this boundary-shmoundary stuff is dumb.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's really dumb. It doesn't make sense with my instincts.

THERAPIST: You'd like to have a conversation with whoever invented it.

CLIENT: Like here? The boundaries here?

THERAPIST: I meant in general, but sure.

CLIENT: Like why didn't you pick the Lenovo model instead of...

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:42:25)

CLIENT: Yeah, instead of the Gorilla model. I think I would naturally partner up with somebody and feel really secure, even if I sometimes were physically intimate with other people. (pause) [00:43:19] You don't have any plants in here.

THERAPIST: I used to. I had a bonsai tree in that window for a long time.

CLIENT: What happened to it?

THERAPIST: Well it didn't die, (both laugh) but it was getting close.

CLIENT: You might try an easier plant.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I really like plants. I brought it home because there was a sunnier window in the winter and [...] (inaudible at 00:43:56). I've had orchids in here a couple of times. But you're right, the sensible thing would be (laughs) to try an easier thing.

CLIENT: I guess it depends on why you have the plant.

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