TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. (pause)

CLIENT: [inaudible] do this again. [00:01:05.12] (pause) (sneeze)

THERAPIST: Bless you. [00:03:21.11]

CLIENT: Thank you. (pause) We had an assignment yesterday at school (pause) and I think it was like a writing prompt where you're given the first and the last sentence. [00:04:16.23]

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, what was the last I can't hear you. It was a...

CLIENT: It was a writing prompt, and I just, I guess, had to do it like five minutes or something. I wrote about seeing my mom, and it was very mean. I had like a nightmare last night. I was thinking I should send an e-mail to my teacher saying, I'm sorry for being so mean. We had to read it out loud and so I was like wow, this is mean.

THERAPIST: What did it say?

CLIENT: Well I was like describing a mother's face as being like as wrinkled as a prune and stuff. [00:05:05.22] It was just negative and stuff. And I guess that gave me a nightmare.

THERAPIST: And so you had to read it to the class?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What was that like?

CLIENT: No, it was I just thought it was very mean. So and Tuesdays are very, I guess I have two classes and I come home at 10:30 at night, and so my head is stuffed with ideas. And I guess I either have trouble sleeping or I fall asleep when I'm tired but then I can I'm aware of my thoughts or have dreams. I just feel like disapproval. [00:06:09.08] That's what I wrote about, like a little scene [inaudible] scene and it was it started off like an argument between me and my mom, like her saying, what are you doing with that guy? It's not right. And so then I dreamed something that was something like that.

THERAPIST: Like?

CLIENT: It was weird. Like one of the guys, I don't even know this person very well. I've seen him at one or two events and on Facebook. And I think he works at Yale but recently he started writing for this popular online Indian newspaper. [00:07:10.03] And that kind of, I guess, made me a bit jealous. I was like what the fuck is wrong with these people, like they're scientists and they want to write. And they're political. And so people like us who want to be journalists and writers and we have no fucking clue how to do it, and these people are so connected and they're regularly writing two or three columns a month. It just pissed me off. {inaudible]

THERAPIST: I'm so sorry, would you mind not doing that with your hair? I'm so sorry, it's my own pet peeve. I really apologize.

CLIENT: I need a haircut or something, just I know [inaudible] bad hair. It's really hard for me to talk so I need a distraction. [00:08:08.01] Otherwise I just can't do it. So yeah [inaudible]

THERAPIST: Can I offer you another distraction?

CLIENT: Yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: What would work for you?

CLIENT: I don't know, like chewing gum or something. I don't know. I really it's really hard for me to talk.

THERAPIST: Maybe we can talk about how it's hard for you to talk.

CLIENT: Yeah, just like I just don't feel like doing it so it's really that's why I sit here for minutes. I know the minutes are passing and it's like a waste of your time so but I just I have trouble talking.

THERAPIST: It sounds like it seems like especially recently you felt that way.

CLIENT: Well it just I just feel like life is not going anywhere. I don't know why I feel that way, I just feel that way. And I would like to see myself doing things. [00:09:06.08] I don't know. So it just feels like so my time here with you becomes a little [inaudible] It's a sign that something's wrong with me.

THERAPIST: How do you how so?

CLIENT: Well just like sitting and talking relentlessly about stuff that is wrong with me. So I just cannot sit still in here. So I wish I could be more calm about this, but I'm having trouble being calm about it.

THERAPIST: Why should you feel calm?

CLIENT: So that I'm not fidgety all the time. That's probably very distracting for you. [00:10:01.01]

THERAPIST: I really don't mind the fidgety. I have something about that pulling out the hair. That's like that is distracting to me. But you needing to be fidgety is completely fine.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. Well, I'm trying not to be fidgety but it's just not working.

THERAPIST: Well, but that's your expectation of yourself not to be fidgety.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I guess what why? Why should you not be fidgety? Why should you be calm?

CLIENT: I don't know. It's like a sign of a person who's more together. I don't know.

THERAPIST: But you don't feel together right now.

CLIENT: Well I would like to be together.

THERAPIST: I know you would. I know you would.

CLIENT: I have high expectations for myself. I have great expectations.

THERAPIST: You just seem so frustrated.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean yeah. [00:11:04.08] It's again, I guess I am frustrated instead of being strategic and making plans of how to get stuff done. Like I'm saying, like if I want I could be writing for blogs on a regular basis like this guy is. I should figure out how to do that instead of just being jealous or mad or something. So I feel like I don't have not just the physical resources or the connections, I don't have mental resources to calm down and take a step back and make a list and make a plan. It's more like I look I guess I become more down on myself and why can't I do that, why don't I have what it takes. I guess I don't have what it takes or whatever. [00:12:02.28] I guess I give up and become all cranky and panicky instead of even trying. I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: So you want to feel more at peace? [00:15:32.28]

CLIENT: (laughs) Well yeah, I guess. I mean more charitable. I just don't understand how some people have the ability to be confident. Like when they chart out a difficult path for themselves, an alternative path, and then they stick to it no matter what people say or [inaudible] thing [inaudible] to do is. I don't see how they can be so confident in who they are. I feel like I keep losing my confidence. Like I have it and then I something happens and I lose it. Do you think I was more together when I was living with Chris?

THERAPIST: Is that something you wonder?

CLIENT: I'm just wondering, yeah. Like before September or Oct before, yeah, a few weeks ago, before the summer. Do you remember any impressions? [00:17:04.13]

THERAPIST: Well how would your being more confident, how would that come out?

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess here or whatever I talk about would be reflective of that. I wouldn't be crabbing about not feeling confident. I don't know. (sneeze)

THERAPIST: Bless you.

CLIENT: Thanks. (pause)

THERAPIST: You feel that moving out has had a big impact. [00:18:13.24]

CLIENT: I'm just wondering has it destabilized [ph] me, am I writing less or am I writing poorly or am I more stressed about money? I don't know. There's so many counters [ph] to anything that I say, any one thing. [inaudible] have an object of [inaudible] but maybe it's just so dark [inaudible] it probably is. [00:19:07.16] I don't know. It's like school sometimes unnerves me. I guess yesterday was one of those days. I just feel like what am I doing. Where am I going? Am I do I have talent, am I unique or not, what is my plan b? What do I want to do? Where do I see myself? I've been asking these questions for a very long time but it's, I guess, taking its toll on me. But I mean sometimes I get these visions of that's what it means to take the [inaudible] path. [00:20:05.08] That is why a real person does the standard thing of getting a degree and getting a job in that area. And that is why people like certainty and not many people can survive with the murky realms. [ph] And I feel like that is philosophically I feel even closer to that realm [ph] and the realm of serenity and fixed stances [ph] with this. So I really think that gray or uncertainty can be, I don't know, safer because certainty leads to a lot of bad decisions. [00:21:05.18] I don't know. I think people who are sure of themselves or are scared of people. I mean they're happy, probably very happy, but it's I guess I feel like it's not for me. I've always been attracted to the teachers who kind of advocated this philosophy or seemed to advocate it the way that they [inaudible] and they questioned everything and they were uncertain, and I appreciated that a lot. I understand that's [inaudible] it can bring a lot of I didn't understand until now how much pain it can bring. It's a daily living with uncertainty daily is a very taxing thing to do. [00:22:09.12] (pause)

THERAPIST: Where do you think the essay came from that you wrote?

CLIENT: Well just I mean I was conscious of it when I was writing it. [00:23:01.23] It was a very quick assignment and it had a starting point and an ending point and we were given five minutes [inaudible]quickly because it was like oh yeah, I've been told I'm mad at my mom so maybe I can just channel that for a bit. The nightmare was kind of bad.

THERAPIST: The nightmare that you had after?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What was it?

CLIENT: Well just like this guy that I was telling you about. I don't know him at all except that he posts on Facebook, how he's publishing these articles and it's like oh great, so you're a scientist and a writer. Fuck you. But he was apparently he was around he'd come over to my place, and my place as in like this isn't even this place doesn't exist. [00:24:00.26] And I was apparently living with my mom and she was in the next room and she was much older or whatever, and dark so she couldn't see. So she came in to check up on me and this guy was on my bed with me. We were talking or something and [inaudible] was like oh, you're back Chris. I'm like shut up! It was so embarrassing. This is not Chris. And she was like horrified. And I was horrified and embarrassed and this guy was like wait, yeah, you're Chris's girlfriend, aren't you. And I was trying to explain to him no, no, we broke up. So I guess I felt like [inaudible] was judging me.

THERAPIST: That your mom didn't make a mistake, that she why was your mom judging you, I'm sorry?

CLIENT: Well apparently I'm Chris's girlfriend and what am I doing with this other guy. [00:25:01.20] Am I supposed to move on or whatever. (pause) And then she was disappointed in me and shattered and horrified, embarrassed and all that. It's like I would love to keep her in very good condition. I would love to see her dripping with diamonds if that's at all possible. But she's just not that way. She just, in my head, comes across as not being together and being shabby. [00:26:05.23] And she's a prune; she's like collapsing on herself. But I can't help it. I can't save her. It makes me feel like she don't believe this proves all my theorems, all my beliefs that I go out there and preach to everyone I know. You don't need money to be not just happy, to be fabulous, to look good, to feel good, to live well. But she disproves all that because it's like this gigantic pit where all this knowledge of being fabulous, etc. just goes down the drain because it just doesn't work. [00:27:10.20]

THERAPIST: I don't follow that last part.

CLIENT: Well like she does not look fabulous. I don't understand why not. I refuse to believe that it's got something to do with money, that you have to look rich, and if you don't make, I don't know, a decent amount of money every year. I don't believe that. You buy a few good clothes and you look well, you dress well. Okay, I don't look fabulous all the time, there's certain days of the week where I wear the same things, but I try not to give the impression that I haven't I'm not taking care of myself. [00:28:06.26] In her case it seems so deliberate that I feel like there are these vast resources of knowledge I have and that are out there that can help you look good or make it without much money. But it's like she's not invested in those. She's just hell bent on disproving. (pause) But I guess, also, I guess I just feel very guilty about the whole Chris/this other guy thing. [00:29:07.10] I laugh it off but I guess subconsciously I'm very troubled by it.

THERAPIST: What in particular?

CLIENT: Well this indecision on my part, and the fact that if it does mean that I'm moving on from Chris then the fact that I haven't spent two years crying and like mourning his loss and like shutting that part, avoiding that. But still, the fact that I'm not being honest. Well yeah, that doesn't mean [inaudible] honestly [inaudible] And the fact that I hate that things are the way they are. [00:30:09.05] Like not just with me but like generally in terms of relationships that honesty really isn't required. Really it is required but I'm just like whatever. I try. I try not to see Chris but then this weekend I saw him Sunday night at the event and I was like, I guess, drawn a little bit to him. So I went over to his place. He was having dinner elsewhere but then he came home. I mean I use excuses oh, it's easier, his place is closer to the T and there's all this food that I bought that I kept at his place so it makes sense to stay there and eat there and cook there and work there. [00:31:04.24] But then he's like very caring and loving and that makes me feel guilty.

THERAPIST: What price would you pay to be honest?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well there's you're not being honest because there's a price to pay I guess. There's some negative consequence.

CLIENT: Well yeah, like losing Chris or losing that guy. I feel like both are kind of I like both of them and they serve certain purposes.

THERAPIST: So you feel telling one about the other they would leave.

CLIENT: I would tell them in a way that they wouldn't leave. [00:32:03.27]

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: Well Chris, I've kind of tried to tell him that I'm seeing this other guy, so the knowledge does go inside because it's somewhere.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess what I was saying is if you want to see Chris and you want to see somebody else, if you tell both of them that you're seeing someone else, you're not lying.

CLIENT: Yeah. but it feels like a lie, right? I mean...

THERAPIST: It's a lie if you don't tell them, that's for sure.

CLIENT: No, but like I've said to Chris I'm seeing someone but I don't really specify that I see him every weekend and I sleep over at his place sometimes, and I like him and all my thoughts, the unfiltered version. [00:33:04.17] And I don't want to hurt him but so that he's an excuse to lie, or it feels like a lie. But he did like he did go out this weekend with some friend and he told them he's single. So I think he's indecisive like I am. I don't know. I keep thinking I'm going to end it with this guy and it hasn't happened yet. But I anticipate. Like I feel like this is how I do things. I get into a mess [inaudible] this is what is right for you right now. [00:34:10.27] So with the whole Victor thing, that's what she said. She said he was the medicine you needed at that time and that you're not suffering from that disease anymore so you don't need that medicine anymore. And that's a good understanding, I feel like, of that situation. So I know I need to make a decision on this and do the right thing, but I'm just not prepared for some reason to do the right thing. So I have to wait until I can, until I am prepared.

THERAPIST: What do you need to be prepared?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: What do you need?

CLIENT: What do I need? I don't know, something. Something changes. Maybe when my book is finished and gets accepted and I'm just suddenly full of confidence and I know for sure who I want to be with. [00:35:06.00]

THERAPIST: What would it mean to choose one or to choose the other?

CLIENT: Well they're very different, right. Chris is highly intellectual. I know exactly kind of like what I would have with him, kind of boring and but steady and full of filled with certainty, filled with ideology and poetry of the cerebral kind and good music, good food that we cook, decent but rare intimacy. Yeah. But with the other guy it's like right now, because it's very new, it's like a lot of good chemistry. [00:36:05.13] Not good sex because we haven't been successful or we haven't done it.

THERAPIST: Those are two different things.

CLIENT: Yeah, well he has anxieties; he has problems.

THERAPIST: About what?

CLIENT: Yeah, being erect.

THERAPIST: He has a hard time getting an erection or maintaining it?

CLIENT: Maintaining it. I don't know. Plus he's like a corporate and makes a lot of money, and he's basically a capitalist. And he's not very cultured and not I mean these are negatives, and I've only cited positive things from Chris, so I can see my bias but that's not I mean he has he's very self-aware. [00:37:00.29] He's very he's interested in things. He's interested in having fun. He's very social. He's very non-judgmental, I guess. We were talking a lot last Monday and he's like Sunday he just went on a long hike with his friends, and so he just does things like that. Chris would never. He's so busy first of all. But even if he wasn't busy he would never...

THERAPIST: Go on a hike?

CLIENT: Yeah. Not that...

THERAPIST: He doesn't like outside?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I don't either but I would love to go on a hike. I would love for someone to force me or expose me to new things, force me out of myself. Which is what I kind of liked about Victor, I guess. [00:38:00.26] And I know we've talked about my weird categories but and sometimes it could mean if I pick one then I would be giving up some of the things of the other person. With Chris I wouldn't have the whole spontaneous thing about let's go on a hike or let's go do something very intense like whatever. But then he'd be very steady and stable, someone who replies to my texts right away and picks up every time I call. This other guy doesn't do that. He's never really around except on the weekends. So I'm very unsure about how he feels, although he keeps introducing me to his friends, which makes me nervous. [00:39:09.09]

THERAPIST: What makes you nervous about it?

CLIENT: Well what if we don't work out; we probably won't work out. I don't know. And they're all corporate types and I'm just like I don't know what to say to you guys. And then like last weekend I'm like oh okay, you guys can you guys are actually nice. You can make me realize I'm the judgmental one. And I just need to chill out. (pause) But I like seeing him. [00:40:06.00] I like the fact that I find him attractive and I'm attracted to him because simply, again, I'm like maybe this is just the normal [inaudible] but I'm like it just happens on a very, very, very mild level with Chris, or really didn't happen. I don't know. Chemistry's something I feel like I don't have an objective opinion on. Maybe it's just a momentary feeling, a flash. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Maybe you're looking for something in these guys that you ultimately need to get from yourself.

CLIENT: Chemistry? (laughs) [00:41:05.08]

THERAPIST: No, I wasn't thinking about chemistry, but I was thinking about why you feel you need to hold onto both and why there are some things you can't just do without, which I mean is true for anybody. No one is going to be everything that you need. And then I started to wonder whether if you felt you can get more from yourself that you could sort of bear a feeling that one person doesn't give you all of what you'd like. You know what I'm saying? I'm not saying either of them are right for you, but just in terms of the idea, sort of needing to have two men to get to sort of to fill out the spectrum.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know that's why I kind of try and give up Chris for part of the week. His structure, I feel like I can do structure on my own, and I have even come to the point of accepting the fact that my structure is very, very flexible. [00:42:02.14] It's my own structure, and some days I just want to go for a long walk and that's fine. I've come to the point where I can accept that about myself. And intellectual stimulation, that's why I'm in school, and I know the books to read and I guess the only thing that I can that I miss about him is companionship. Eating alone is just too sad for me so and not just eating alone but cooking for someone.

THERAPIST: That sharing.

CLIENT: Yeah. I just I go to his place and make a big pot of something and give it to my mom and Chris, and I like doing that.

THERAPIST: It feels like a family. [00:43:00.25]

CLIENT: Yeah. He's my family. I finally [ph] create a family inside myself [inaudible].

THERAPIST: That's an interesting way of putting it. Maybe you can.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I don't know. I have to the truth of something surpassed my ability to articulate it if you I'm sure you've had this experience writing. If something feels true then how do you articulate it.

CLIENT: I see what you're saying. The need what does the family represent, the need for love or a source of love I can find within myself. I see that but you can't really to some extent you can do that but at some point you do want other people. [00:44:16.03]

THERAPIST: Absolutely. We're by nature very social creatures. But it sort of begs the question of what is it that other people provide versus what is it that we provide for ourselves. It kind of begs that question. A sense of belonging and being part, sort of, of a community or a close knit community. Or I mean it sort of it's almost too simplistic to say it's either or, you get it from yourself or you get it from other people. It seems like that sort of reduces things down to almost an absurdity. But just this phrase of you how did you put it? You can't have people you can't have a family inside yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean I think in a sense that's sort of one of our goals together. [00:45:07.23] Goals sounds a little too mechanical, but how do you create something inside of yourself that feels sustaining and good and nurturing so you can get out in the world and get more of it. But that it doesn't feel like everything is so hollow when it's not there, or depriving or frustrating.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess that's what I feel.

THERAPIST: And I know I've heard you the last couple of weeks, especially this week, that you're feeling down and you're feeling frustrated and maybe even a little bit hopeless. And I think I don't mean to be like put a Band-Aid over it and a smile, an artificial smiley face, but I think we're going to get through this. I think I'm going to help you through this. And I know you're having a hard time right now and I don't want to minimize it or just say put on a happy face, everything's going to be great. But I do think we'll get through it. But I have heard you. I've been listening and I've heard you say that. [00:46:01.26] I mean you're getting through to me around that.

CLIENT: Okay, thank you.

THERAPIST: We need to stop for today. So I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Yes, see you. Thank you. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. Bye bye.

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