TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in!

CLIENT: Ouch! (sneezes)

THERAPIST: Bless you!

CLIENT: Thanks. (pause) (blows nose) Can't remember what I talked about last time. [00:01:25]

THERAPIST: One of the things you were talking about is the poem you wrote to the class about your mother...

CLIENT: Oh, the...

THERAPIST: About a mother...

CLIENT: (inaudible) peace (ph). (therapist affirms) (chuckles) Yeah, so that was weird, because the next day, Wednesday, I kind of went and saw my mom at work and (chuckles) that was very difficult. Kind of crying afterwards and I sent an e-mail to my professor, "I take everything back! I'm sorry I was so mean!" (chuckles) But I got over it, so that means something has changed. [00:02:30]

I mean, I still felt the things I would feel earlier, you know, like... fear and like the urge to, like protect her and take care of her and... But then, I told myself, you know, every, all kinds of, all work is, you know, good and... no work is small. When it comes to your dignity, of course, you get paid minimum wage, it's obviously not as good as if you're a CEO or something, but you know, there is dignity in every kind of work, so... I guess I told myself, "She'll be okay; it's all right that she's working at a grocery store." (chuckles) But it's difficult, you know? For me, it was, anyways.

[pause 00:03:48 to 00:04:08]

I think earlier it would make me feel like, very sorry for myself and for us, and feel very low and very scared and, like, "Oh, God! What's going to happen?" You know? We're still at the starting gates, you know, like... I'd compare myself to other people and just go crazy (chuckles), but I tried not to do that. I tried to see the beauty in our smallness and our... even the fact that we're still like, you know, maybe bohemian or whatever, you know, that we don't have everything that other people like us, or whatever, in our category have, so... [00:05:06]

THERAPIST: But she's finishing up a master's degree in teaching.

CLIENT: Yeah. What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I mean, people can be in medical school, working at a coffee shop so that they finish medical school. It's very different than someone who is working at a coffee shop as their career. (client affirms) Like, it seems like you take this as an emblem for suffering and...

CLIENT: I'll tell you why! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Okay! (inaudible) I'll hear it!

CLIENT: So, like, the other night, she was like, "You know, this is so much easier than teaching, this is so good, so easy. You just go in and do it." And I'm about to pull my hair out! (laughs) I'm thinking, "Wait, why have you spent the last three years pursuing a master's and you know, paying for it by yourself, on your own, you know, taking loans and paying God knows how many thousands of dollars to realize that you'd rather work at a grocery store!" (laughs) [00:06:05]

THERAPIST: But that's different than a narrative about, "Oh, we're so poor! We're uneducated! We have no options in life!" That's a very different thing (client affirms) than someone saying, "I don't want a professional job! This is easier!" (chuckles) (client affirms) It's a very different narrative!

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. I wish I could have that, the latter, like nonchalance. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, one of the things it hinges upon is choice (client affirms), you know, the narrative you introduced was about one's lot in life, this is one's lot in life, and there is nothing you can do about it. The other is your mom saying, "I don't really want the responsibility of a professional job. You show up to work, bag groceries, and leave! And that's what I want."

CLIENT: Yeah. But that just makes me feel so, like, angry. Like, she has so much potential, right? And I see her in a position of authority, of some authority, of people respecting her and people like... Like, I've seen her in that scenario, somewhat like that. Now I want to see her that way. Maybe I see her as something so like, pathetic that I want to change that and the only way I think I can change that is if I see other people respecting her. [00:07:24]

THERAPIST: That's an interesting thought. (client sighs)

[pause 00:07:31 to 00:07:45]

CLIENT: And it's not like my own narrative. I mean, I'm sure I've taken it as my own, but it's come from elsewhere, I feel like. Like, you know, again, like... in that India (ph) scenario that, you know, that historian's parents' place, you know, that narrative that they were, you know, projecting on me: "Oh, you've no friends, you've no money, you've no family, you're just like, just you know, lost little lark in the sky or whatever, you know, like little piece of wood, just floating about," you know.

So, and you know, I can see this little piece being added to that narrative to make it, make me seem even more pathetic: "Oh, your mom works at a grocery store and you know, and you don't make any money and you both are just like going to hell!" (chuckles) So I mean, that's not my, I mean, it's there in other people's head as well, so it's not like I am the only one who thinks that way. [00:08:58]

THERAPIST: Well, how... I have thoughts about that, but, if that were true, then how does that, what is the difference that makes?

CLIENT: Well... what do you mean? The consequence?

THERAPIST: Well, you're saying other people, yeah if other people have that narrative, like so what? (client affirms) I mean, there are, I don't mean to dismiss it. I mean, there are something you are thinking about, like there is a "so what?"

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, so I'm supposed to be very scared and I'm supposed to look for charity and I'm supposed to be pitied. And I'm supposed to basically have a crisis and be like, "What the hell am I doing?" I should figure out ways to make myself stronger and not be so pathetic. I should find a job and stop this nonsense. Here, do what other people who are given my lot in life, do what, I should do what they do. [00:09:57]

THERAPIST: What is your lot?

CLIENT: Well, find a boring job, and shut up and do it! (chuckles) And to not have dreams and the audacity to pursue them, you know? To dream dreams and then to pursue them. But this is like against like all rational judgment, I guess. You know, like doing whatever it is that I'm doing, letting my mom do whatever it is that she's doing, you know?

THERAPIST: I wonder if that comes from a place, you know, your mom is giving up on her dreams so maybe you should give up on yours.

CLIENT: That just makes me rebel and say, "No!" I should pursue it even more! (chuckles) I should not be like her and give up.

THERAPIST: When did you decide you wanted to be an artist? [00:10:54]

CLIENT: Um, I don't know. I always liked reading, like you know, when I was a child, given what my childhood was (chuckles), you know, reading books was the only kind of get away, you know, escape. Not just that; just like, feeling strong and feeling that the world was beautiful and all, so... But... I don't really know. I've always been like a wishy-washy kind of a person, I guess. I don't' know. I mean, I get swayed easily and my dad was, you know, very, very strong personality, like you know, very kind of, he was a bully. [00:11:45]

So when we came here, he was like, "You should do computer science." I think I was, I was upset, and had absolutely no idea. I was like, "I want to do architecture; that sounds nice!" (chuckles) Without really knowing anything about anything. Then, in college, you know, I started taking classes and found like the... uncertainty that professors seemed to possess, to be so much more profound and interesting than the certainty that, like my engineering professors had. They just seemed so shallow! Like, the professors who taught me math or like, yeah, computer science. I just used to love everything about, like the English department, the old building, the fact that it was in a much prettier part of campus (chuckles). Like, yeah. So... [00:12:54]

At that time, I was you know, a Christian, so I felt like God would have not wanted me to be n artist, because that was... I mean... We weren't really fundamentalist, but I feel like that church was kind of very fundamental, you know, in the sense that there was, there were a lot of things that were just black and white, plain and simple. (chuckles) So there is this really strong category of secular and non-secular. (chuckles) So, anything that did not... like advance the word of God was supposed to be secular, and we were supposed to think very, very, very, very, very hard about doing that and pretty much not do it.

Like, most people, a lot of people, it seemed at the time, that everyone was going into the missions. Like, as soon as they graduated, they just remained in the community or went abroad and did, went on mission service. So, I was considering that, I guess; I don't know. But then, I was like, "What if I want to work? I'll have to sell my soul in order to work! Should I do that? I guess I shouldn't do that!" (chuckles) Then, you know, it was like my, I was completely disillusioned with the church soon after I graduated, because of my dad. Then I guess I started thinking about... Because I had lost hope, I guess. Then I thought I ought to see if I could be a artist. [00:14:39]

THERAPIST: You lost hope in the church?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, it was weird. I don't really exactly know what happened, but like my parents were, you know, like the marriage was really bad to begin with, but... And my dad was obviously very upset when I told him I had converted to Christianity and then like soon afterwards, my mom also converted (chuckles) and you know, whatever. He was just having his own problems. He was having affairs all over the place and not working at all. And I think... I don't know what, like how or what, but my mom needed some dental work done and my church apparently raised money for her, and gave her some money. I don't know why that detail is important, but... See, she used to come to church with me and like, on her own as well. I guess she started telling my dad that he should accept Jesus into his heart and so, you know, he would stop doing all of the bad things that he was doing. [00:16:05]

We made friends in the church and... but then, you know like, he wanted to buy a house and he wanted me to take a loan, even though I was still in college (it was my senior year, I think). And then my boyfriend at the time, Jeremy, was like, "That is a bad idea!" So like, things came to a head, I guess when (sighs) my parents were like, "You should come and see this place out, we're going to go check it out." And I went with Jeremy and like, it was like a showdown. (chuckles) I feel like, because my dad was like, "Why won't you sign the loan papers? You know, you're like, you're breaking your mother's heart!" You know, and my mom looked like she was ready to cry. I was like, "What?? Has he brain washed her? Like, is she fucking serious?" Like, is she really saying that I should take the loan? You know? [00:17:12]

So Jeremy was like, "This is a bad idea. You shouldn't do it. You're like, you haven't even started earning, you don't know when you're going to find a job. You shouldn't sign away your life for this man, who only takes and takes from you." And you know, he had, like he would, I had joint account with my mom so like, he would... and my like, loan and my scholarship would go into that account and he would just like, take out money from there. I think one time, he did like for, he was gambling and he took money out and then he wanted to do a computer course and I gave him like $2000 and (chuckles)... So it was like, all my scholarship money and my job money, so... You know, Jeremy was like, "He's completely capable! There is nothing wrong with this man! Why is he not, you know, picking up?" [00:18:12]

So yeah, like, so I left with Jeremy and came back to my apartment. My dad left a very nasty phone message, like cursing me and stuff. I was like, "This is it! I'm running away!" So I called my mom and said, "That's it! I'm just leaving you guys. I'm going away." She said, "Don't do that! I'll leave your dad!" And so she, that's when, you know, like a separation happened.

But then he just kind of started using all our church friends. Like, he would like go up to them and be like, "Why is she doing this? I'm a young Christian. She should forgive me and like, you know, like... marriage is sacred. You should tell her not to divorce me." And so like everyone took his side, and that just really like ruined the whole church for me, because they did! They were like, "No, Lillian (ph), you shouldn't divorce him." And I was like, "Are you fucking kidding me? You've no idea what the hell that we've been through in the past 20 years! You want us to go back to that?" So, people were upset at us, I was like, "FUCK you!" (chuckles) (pause) Why did I start on this? (chuckles) [00:19:42]

THERAPIST: It's interesting. I was thinking that. I initially asked when you thought you knew you wanted to be an artist.

CLIENT: Yeah! So this came, this all happened and then it was like, "I can do whatever I want!" (chuckles) You know? That, and so like, after that, I think it applied to, get into a master's program in computer science. I was accepted and like, then a few days later, like all this happened. So I just completely like, lost hope and everything. I guess I wasn't even aware of what I was doing, but I remember like, deferring my admission and then just saying, "I'm not doing this." Then after... you know, like a few months later, I found a job and then after that, I met Chris and... since then, I've been pursuing like, other things, intellectual. (chuckles) [00:20:46]

THERAPIST: Did you want to work before, but didn't give yourself permission? Or had you not thought about it before?

CLIENT: I don't remember, yeah. Not before college. I don't remember. I didn't know anything about writing and stuff. Like, I had read books, but you know like, it didn't really, I didn't really make the connection that I could produce, you know? I could produce anything. (chuckles) I had not made that connection. I led a very sheltered life. There was not much coming at me (chuckles), (inaudible) through television or through adults or through you know... it was whatever I knew had come through, the books that I had picked up myself. And even in college, I didn't really go to like a liberal arts school, so I didn't really have a grand awareness of things. (chuckles) But I've tried to make, I've tried to change that profoundly, so...

[pause 00:22:03 to 00:22:18]

Yeah, in college, I guess I took writing workshops and I wrote stories about my family and like, the teachers were really like, encouraging. One of my teachers was like, "You should take a graduate-level workshop. You know, you're good." So then, I was like, "Huh!" But I don't, I don't know if even then, I knew what writing was all about. (chuckles) I mean, then I got a master's in English, after like consulting with people and like even that approach was you know, like, I didn't really know that there were programs. But I'm glad I did the master's. It's good to have like a theoretical background. [00:23:08]

Then at MSU was actually the first time (chuckles) in my life that I spent time just writing. I'm still very new, I guess. Because I feel like a lot of people who come to (inaudible) programs, they've already been writing for a while, no matter what their age. Like, they have such, they have such an awareness about what an artist is, and these are their pieces, and these are the different ways of producing work, and this is how you get published. So a lot of knowledge they already have. I had to acquire that slowly and as I have had, as I have been slow on things. [00:24:05]

But even after MSU, like after MSU, like this professor was also like a really famous artist. He was like, he was very encouraging of my stuff. He was like, "The best advice I can give you is to devote the next few years just work. See if you can do that." And I got so scared, so scared! I still am, I am very scared, obviously, but I didn't do that on purpose. I found a full-time job and I was like, "I have loans and I have to pay rent and..." (chuckles) I was writing on the weekends, but that was just really terrible work. I sent the stories out, they were rejected, I was like, "What?!" (chuckles) And then I said to myself, "This is crazy! Other people are already starting to get published and what is it that they're doing that I'm not doing?" [00:25:09]

I went part-time and then I quit, to kind of understand more about the kind of work I can do and like... It's been like a long process and most, I guess, most of the challenges have been like internal and psychological. You know, like the fears and the indecision and like, not allowing myself to produce. I just (inaudible). That has only come about over the last couple of years, me giving myself the permission to work. Just felt very obligated to my mom, I guess, and I guess I still have that guilt. I don't realize I have it, but I guess I do, of not signing those loan papers. (chuckles) [00:26:16]

THERAPIST: Why did they want you to sign them? I don't understand why they wanted you to take up one?

CLIENT: Well... Out of the three of us, I apparently was the most attractive candidate for a loan.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: (sighs) My dad didn't have a job, or if he did, he probably worked at a McDonald's. My mom worked at a very small daycare. I was getting a degree from a good school, and I had had internships before that paid well, so most likely, I would get a good job.

THERAPIST: And was the loan your dad's idea, or your mother's idea, or both of their ideas?

CLIENT: Oh, all ideas were his ideas! He just kind of manipulated my mom to think that that was her idea. (chuckles) [00:27:17]

THERAPIST: Well, what comes to my mind about loans, at least one of them, is you were feeling very conflicted about how indebted you were to her.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. What do you mean, how indebted?

THERAPIST: I mean, like in the sense, yeah, I don't know if indebted is the word that comes to my mind, especially because debt is (chuckles) in the word indebted, in terms of how much you owe her.

CLIENT: Yeah. You mean, it's quantifiable or something or...?

THERAPIST: No, I mean more psychological, and the loan is kind of a concrete expression of that. (client affirms) Like, even on a really deep level, like how much are you loaning your life from her? How much did she give your life and your life is on loan. (client affirms) Or how much is it yours?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's kind of the narrative that I was given. Like, when I was one or two or something, I don't know; my dad, he wasn't around obviously, but he sent me like a birthday card. I still have it. It had a lot of writing on it and he scratched out certain words (chuckles) and put like, weird ones in place. Like the whole gist of it seemed like, you know, "You owe your life to your mom, if she hadn't wanted it, you wouldn't have even been here." And he would say this, these exact words later. "She suffered a lot for you..." So... [00:29:05]

THERAPIST: And he would tell you this? (client affirms) Do you know why?

CLIENT: His guilt, I think? For treating her the way he did. (therapist affirms) And he'd be like, he'd eulogize her as a hero, he was like, "She's the strongest woman I've ever known!" I think, I mean obviously, a two-year old can't read a greeting card, so she would have read that card and like, these are the things that he wanted to say to her, I suppose, at least in the card, but then later on, when he would tell me these things, it was in front of her, but...

THERAPIST: You never talked about that before.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, it didn't come up.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's interesting. Because I always think of the fact that you owe your mom something is something that came from her, you know. But it sounds like it also came from him. That was the family narrative.

CLIENT: Yeah. (sighs)

[pause 00:30:00 to 00:30:22]

I guess it's like in the family scenario, it becomes that way, but like every person has to make contributions and I wonder about who has contributed what. For children, it can be very difficult, because they don't know (chuckles), they don't know how to contribute. And they want, like, to be loved so badly, and they want approval so much. I'm sure I was like that, you know, when I wanted approval, I wanted his approval and so I'd need to like do whatever. And I did it and then like, Jeremy came along and he was like, "What?" You know, he was a complete outsider and he just went, "This is crazy! All this..." You know... (chuckles) So I guess I hated him for, on some level, for telling us how bad we were. (chuckles) Angry at first, as well, for getting me out (ph). [00:31:36]

THERAPIST: Of how bad we were (ph)?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: Were you, how bad we were?

CLIENT: Yeah, like we, as a family.

THERAPIST: He wasn't, it didn't sound like he was commenting on you.

CLIENT: I know, but I projected that on myself.

THERAPIST: You projected, right. It sounded like he wanted to protect you from your parents. (client affirms) He wasn't saying how bad we were, meaning you.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I took it that way, at some level.

THERAPIST: I mean, if he really felt that way, he wouldn't have encouraged you not to take the loan. (client affirms) What would he care if it was your demise?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, which is why I'm you know, grateful that he cared. (chuckles) (pause)

THERAPIST: It seems like he was commenting on your autonomy, the potential for your autonomy. [00:32:35]

CLIENT: Yeah. It really became cultural, just because I just thought that... I was so embarrassed that he had seen such a bad side. I just felt, you know, horrible. (chuckles) (pause) Now, I feel like obviously, Chris has seen a lot of horrible sides, too. But it's not so bad, because you know, the biggest loser, like the most horrible person, I would think, is gone, so... (chuckles) So, now we're just maybe pathetic, and not horrible. (chuckles) Because earlier, I thought, I think we were.

[pause 00:33:33 to 00:33:51]]

But I mean, it's been a long process for me not to think of myself as, you know, clubbed together with my mom. I mean, it's had, I guess it's got its advantages and disadvantages. I don't know; maybe, it's not a disadvantage, but I feel like it is, that I don't have like a unit, a family unit that I can fall back on to feel secure. Like... Like dislodging myself from that unit, you know, being independent, thinking of myself as me and my ambitions as my own, and my mom as being separate. It's taken a long time, and I feel like I'm getting there. [00:34:50]

So that's good, in terms of like giving, allowing myself everything, every kind of, you know, space, time, to produce or to do whatever that I want to do. Then that can also make me feel kind of lonely, (chuckles) I guess. But I guess that's true for everyone. I don't know. Kind of, break ties and go off on your own, like mentally.

THERAPIST: (pause) I think that (inaudible) confusing, because there is a part of you that very much wants to be a part of her, and then there are very much a part of you that wants to be apart from her.

CLIENT: Yeah, part of and apart, yes! I don't know, like when I saw her working last week, I felt sad, but I also felt... you know, "Like, yeah, so? So what?" (chuckles) [00:36:10]

THERAPIST: I was thinking that you chose the dramatic narrative over the kind of less exciting one, a dramatic narrative as about her needing to accept, or you as a unit needing to accept, your lot in life as beneath and the more humble. The less dramatic narrative is, she's kind of lazy. (client chuckles) She just doesn't feel like working a professional job. I'm not saying that's true. You don't know, your mother could have made this off-handed comment that may not at all be what she's planning on. But...

CLIENT: Well, I'm not that sort of person, right? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: The sort of person to...

CLIENT: Who gives, who accepts easy, like, non-dramatic narratives. [00:37:09]

THERAPIST: Well, maybe some of the dramatic narratives can be saved for your fictional life.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm trying to do that (laughs). It's not happening in every sphere! (laughs)

[pause 00:37:30 to 00:38:09]

Yeah, I'm not too, like... saddened or sad through it or like... paralyzed by that, even after seeing it. Because I thought, "Oh, I'm just like ignoring it, because I haven't seen her at work." But now that I have... And again, you know, it's, I get it, it's hard and pay is low. It's not much respect in it, but it's not... It's all right, you know?

(pause) Yeah, I feel like something inside me is really fighting and it's like, it's feisty also in the same like, "No, I have things going for me. I am interesting person. I have dreams, I have goals, I have a plan! (chuckles) I'm taking steps towards it, concrete steps." [00:39:11]

THERAPIST: Is your hope to finish your book and look for a publisher or an agent? (client affirms) Do you have a timeline of when you think you might be done?

CLIENT: Not yet, but I hope, soon. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It's interesting, as I'm asking you these questions, I think about how you don't talk about that very much. It's almost like it's hard for you to show me that part of you. (client affirms) A woman who has hopes and dreams and is executing them, isn't just sort of pie in the sky, what if, but actually has some plans.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm scared about them, but... (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What scares you?

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know; failure and stuff. But... I'm trying not to be scared.

THERAPIST: The only failure is not trying.

CLIENT: That's very true. (sighs) I thought I would talk about something completely different (laughs) and it just completely didn't work out. [00:40:20]

THERAPIST: What did you think you'd talk about?

CLIENT: My love life! (laughs) It's a mess!

THERAPIST: Well, that's nothing new. (client laughs heartily)

CLIENT: It's totally messed up! I hope it is a thing of the past. I cannot do this anymore!

THERAPIST: Well, there is obviously, the topic is something that, well, my first thought is, you know, you are talking about your love life.

CLIENT: Really? (therapist affirms) How?

THERAPIST: I have to, that was my sort of, like immediate thought. And then, to try to articulate it... Well, for starters, it's like, this is sort of the foundation of your love life. You know? Your first love is with your parents, which are everybody's first loves, and how that then shapes what happens after. [00:41:18]

CLIENT: Yeah, totally. I did love my dad, despite everything and obviously every single time I did love him and he did mess up, it was disappointing, so... I think both my mom and I loved him and it was disappointing to both of us.

[pause 00:41:39 to 00:42:05]

Yeah, then Jeremy, because I really, really a first love is your first love, so... But I don't feel too bad about that, because he had other... problems. It wasn't just that I completely internalized and misunderstood his judgment of my parents. It was a big part, though; like, it was hard to, although we still were together like, for a whole year, maybe a little less than that, after that.

THERAPIST: Well, when he gave you that, I don't know if it was really advice, but that perspective, you didn't dump him; you followed it.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. It was like, you know, I felt like a little leaf, you know; "Who should I cling to?" Thank God, I clung to him! (chuckles) [00:43:08]

THERAPIST: (pause) I started thinking about... like maybe it's, it's one thing to stand separately and it's another thing to stand alone. Maybe the question is how can you stand separately without feeling like you're standing alone?

CLIENT: Hmm.

[pause 00:43:39 to 00:43:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. It's a very good question. I'll have to think about it.

[pause 00:44:04 to 00:44:27]

THERAPIST: You know, Showpee (ph), I think we need to stop. I'll see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yes! See you! Thank you!

THERAPIST: Sure! (pause) Bye bye!

CLIENT: Bye!

END TRANSCRIPT