TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Hello.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: It's stupid. [laughs] [long pause to 1:30] I guess it will take me some time to find like answers to questions from last week about feeling threatened by authority, or just by other people. All those things are like swirling in my head right now. My interaction with my teacher, and the fact that I'm using a hammer to beat eggs. And this whole mess with these two guys I was not[chuckles] It's not even funny anymore, but I'm laughing. I guess thank God for that, right. It's like it's becoming a bigger mess. [pause] [3:00]

And I just feel like at some point I'm-like for certain things I really am conflicted and undecided and torn, but at some level almost like lying to myself I feel like. And I don't even know what it is that I'm trying to get, you know. So... I understand that by the two guy question it's really like beating-it's not to the point, but I feel like it is like a lens into something deeper, or like, you know, it's a disease that will answer questions about-you know how you use-how you study disease to understand the workings of the body or the mind or something. I mean abnormalities. Although I shouldn't think of it like that, it'll depress me more. [long pause] [4:30]

I guess my-the reason maybe why I feel like I need to take authority figures down a notch, like you said, is maybe because it doesn't matter how high they are in reality, it's just that no matter what I just feel small. But... So like in that scenario, like do other people do things differently? Like would you do things differently? Like instead of taking the other person down a notch, would you pump yourself up?

THERAPIST: Well, that assumes that anyone has to move up and down the ladder.

CLIENT: Yeah. So do you just see like a level playing field all the time?

THERAPIST: In what respect?

CLIENT: Well, like you don't think you're small and you don't think other people are very, very big or something. [6:00]

THERAPIST: We're all just people.

CLIENT: [pause] Just people. [pause] I really realize it's like it stems from a lot of things. It doesn't just stem from like the fact that I'm insecure, it probably also stems from the fact that I like drama, and I like dramatic situations, and if everything is plain, you know, it's kind of boring maybe. So I like make things up and down, even though that's stupid. I don't know, maybe it's just maybe I'm being silly. But I just wondered that.

THERAPIST: Well, what's boring?

CLIENT: [long pause] [sighs] I don't... I feel like hierarchy is like... the hierarchical view of people of the world is kind of there. I don't know, there as in what? Like in my view is it? Or it's just one of the tools that I've been trained to use to understand society that I've actually now internalized. So, you know. [pause] So... [pause] I don't know if I'm going anywhere with this but... I don't know, I'm confused. [8:30]

I don't really understand where it comes from. Like does it come from my dad, who was like always-like always was very judgmental and was like, "You have to stand first in class, otherwise it's just like pointless. Your whole life is pointless, your education is pointless. You have to get the lead part in whatever it is you're doing on stage, otherwise it's pointless, your life is pointless. You have to-" you know. "Oh, you think you're pretty and you're fair?" Well, you know, like, "Screw that. You're like an idiot," you know, "because you don't get a hundred on hundred in math. If you don't get a hundred on hundred in math you're just basically your life is useless." [chuckles] And like his thing about like, "Are you a prot�g�? You're not a prot�g�, so might as well like fuck yourself," you know. "Are you Beethoven? You're not. So what's the point of being alive?"

THERAPIST: He would talk like that? [9:30]

CLIENT: Well, that was like-that was what it was. Like, you know, thatYeah, I mean, other than the Beethoven everything else he did say I guess. [chuckles] Well, I guess all children have the story that, "Oh, I couldn't really please my parents. They expected so much of me and I couldn't do anything." You know. But I guess I have a hard time accepting myself because I didn't do those things very often. I did stand first sometimes, but not always. And I may have just gotten a hundred on hundred once. So... [pause] And that's just such a-like this is one man's opinion, you know, it's not even likeAnd it's stupid, I know, because I know him completely. As an adult and as a writer I've tried to understand him in his whole complexity. And yet this one thing he said is like still ingrained in me, you know. [10:50]

And then I met Chris, who's also kind of judg-I don't know. Like I feel like whatever I say about him it sometimes doesn't feel objective. So that's why I'm looking to you like saying, "I don't know." But it feels like he is judgmental, right. Not to the point of my dad, obviously. But, you know, there is this very complex thing Chris has about, you know, he has good taste, and... In what though? In music I guess. But, you know, so like that opinions and taste is kind of the lens for judgment as well. And, you know, as you've said, like my judgment is like really confused with his judgment, it's the same. And I think at one point you were asking me another question about like can you be with someone who thinks differently or doesn't have the same ideals and ideas as you, and I'm like, "But that's the whole point of life," you know, like finding someone with whom you are like fused like that, and fit together and judge everyone. [chuckles] You know, that feels like your companionship match made in whatever, Heaven or Hell or something. [12:15]

But so he I think is judgmental. And [getting?/forgetting?] one time, like I remember because I've not forgotten it, this is significant. In this early month of our relationship we were just taking a walk and he was telling me that-I think this is like an Eleanor Roosevelt quote or something, that there are three kinds of people, the first kind are the ones who talk about other people, the second kinds are the talk about... [pause] Okay, so the first kind talk about themselves I think, the third [second] kind talk about each other, and the third kind talk about ideas. And the third kind are the best, or something like that. So I think I might have messed up with the second one. But so like that-I think he was trying to say that, you know, like he aspires to that, and the way that I took it at that time when I was, you know, very young, I took it to be like this is this guy's ideal, and he is pretty close to that, he thinks of ideas.

And I've met his friends, and they were also very like-this was when he was back in UNC, and his friends were also very intellectual and, you know, they'd read all the best books, they listened to the best music. And I thought, "Oh my god, this is so fine. This is what life should be all about." And I wanted to be that and mold myself into that. I was very unhappy for a lot of it. Obviously. But I think I lost my train of thought. [14:15]

So yeah, so I guess I was going to say that so my dad's judgment, like very personal and direct judgment, directed at me about not being like the best top student, and of this kind of blending in with Chris's judgment of, you know, like you should only pursue this abstract knowledge and think of ideas and not people. So that kind of has made me see the world this way. And I guess it's a skewed view, but... Yeah, you know, so it's like that. And I see that historian woman who with all that thing happened in India, like I see, you know. And that's what she sees too, like that exactly is her view as well. You know, Rhodes scholar, and like all these great schools, and like all this pedigree. So like big, big, big, big, gigantic, and I'm me being like nothing. Small, you know. Yeah. And it's hard to kind of tell myself, "Oh, I have other ideals. I can measure myself in a different way and still feel big," you know. [16:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: It's funny. Like I was talking to this other guy yesterday and he was like, "You've done so much, and you're supporting your mom," and you know like, "You quit your job and you're work. That should make you feel so cocky, I feel like you should be so cocky about it, and you're like so insecure, I don't understand it." So I mean, I was listening, but I just-you know, not-he was trying to pump me up, but obviously it didn't work.

THERAPIST: Why obviously?

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know. It didn't.

THERAPIST: But why obviously it didn't work?

CLIENT: Well, maybe I'm being humble I guess. I guess I feel like being cocky is not for me, and I like being broken and I like being small. My most favorite hymns when I was into church and everything would be about, you know, like the Lord giving me a broken heart. No, I don't think it was a broken heart, like just break me. And I really understood that concept, I think because it kind of relates to maybe something in Eastern philosophy, I don't know. But I took that to heart, that I want to be small and like humble and sweet. But then, you know, like I don't want to get trampled upon. And even if there's no one trampling me I would basically trample myself, you know, and like crush myself and have no backbone to withstand anything. Which is what happened two years ago. And now I'm scratching my head thinking, "Well, I guess it's not such a good idea to be-" Or maybe I took the broken thing quite literally and I wasn't supposed to.

THERAPIST: What do you like about being broken? [18:15]

CLIENT: I don't know, I haven't thought about like broken very much lately. But just that when I was in church that would mean that God would be able to like plant the seed in me, and, you know, like mold me more easily. Instead of if I were not broken then I would not be as useable.

THERAPIST: For what purpose?

CLIENT: God's purpose. But now that I moved away from that specific understanding and that specific way of seeing things, I don't know, I guess I look at some of my teachers and see how humble they are and I want that. And it's not just the fact that they're humble, like they have this entire philosophy that the go getters of the world, they go and get stuff and get stuff done, but they kind of also run the risk of laying the world in ruins. So it's good to be uncertain and insecure and-yeah.

THERAPIST: Well, this professor that you challenged, I imagine you don't see him as humble.

CLIENT: He is humble, yeah, as far as his art is concerned. Like and he's a Buddhist, so he is far-he has a far more like-a far deeper understanding of being humble than I do. But he's also-I guess I should think about this more. But like he's secure in what he's done, you know. Like he's, I don't know, in his 60s, so he knows-I mean, a big chunk of his life is behind him, and he knows his accomplishments, and everyone knows his accomplishments, and you respect him, and he will respect himself too. And when he talks about some of those-not that he brags about them, but he mentions, like he'll say, "Yeah, yeah, I published [unclear 20:42] for the first time." So he knows the stuff he's done and that gives him kind of a sense of security. But then in the larger sense of the world he is humble because he knows that there's such great artists that came before him and are, you know, there. What did you mean by that question? [21:10]

CLIENT: Well, the reason I thought about it is because I would imagine there's a reason you feel like you need to challenge him or knock him down.

THERAPIST: Which is ridiculous, because I know-like, you know, these words are coming out of my mouth, and I know for sure that he is humble, and he is secure. So there is no threat there, you know, there's no like-it's not like he's cocky and I'm like, "You know what, I know a few things too." But it's just this feeling that I have that gets in the way and blocks this other larger sensible knowledge that he's not cocky, he's watching out for me, he wants me to succeed, he wants me to develop my ideas and-you know. So what happens there in that moment, some chemical reaction that I guess I need to understand and like try and not make it happen again. [long pause] [22:45]

I don't know, I just want to-if I can figure this out I think I would be far happier and successful. But just how to feel less insecure, you know. It's just like a big well of insecurity that just keeps flowing. It's like a river. If I could just like close that tap a little. And maybe that's why-maybe the things-I'm like I'm trying to do every-like different types of things, and I see that you're saying I'm using a like hammer to beat eggs. I'm like, okay, Chris makes me feel really insecure. So if I spend more time with losers, you know, or people who are less judgmental and all that, or just completely plain, you know, because like Chris and I have so much history and so much complex interactions, maybe I'll feel less insecure then. It works for a while. But then it's not a long-term solution. [24:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: [pause] [sighs] This guy was telling me how he deals with his-how he has dealt with his insecurities, and that was helpful. Like just not constantly comparing myself with other people, I think that's a big part of it. [pause] Do you think I don't think enough, or think in the wrong way?

THERAPIST: That's a very broad question.

CLIENT: Yeah. But I'm just wondering like if I-like so maybe I blurt out things, like say for example to my professor when I said, "That's not a good enough answer." Maybe it's that I'm insecure and I want to take him down a notch and I am insecure about-like I want to show off or whatever. Maybe all that is happening. But maybe another thing that's happening is that I'm just not thinking before I speak. And a lot of the thinking shouldn't just happen on the spot but it should have already happened before I interact with people. Maybe I don't think. [26:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You're agreeing?

THERAPIST: I think that's true, I think you can be impulsive at times, and this is sort of just a different version of that, of sort of being impulsive in what you say. I think that's true.

CLIENT: So I'm just like lazy and I have no thoughts in my head? Or what's going on?

THERAPIST: Yeah, you're very lazy and you have absolutely no thoughts. [being sarcasm]

CLIENT: [laughs]

THERAPIST: That's actually what I meant to say but didn't say though.

CLIENT: [laughs] That's not what I mean. I mean like what's-like what do-what's going on? Yeah. Like how do other people, not impulsive people, function? What do they do to-how are they all put together? Like do they rehearse all possible conversations? Nothing is unexpected?

THERAPIST: So when you ask that question are you saying, "So what am I supposed to be perfect?"

CLIENT: No. No. I'm just asking, like how do I fix this one thing I guess. It's great to be spontaneous and fun obviously, but I feel like I need to be more put together in certain social interactions. It's great to think on the fly obviously, but I'm not-clearly I don't do that sometimes. So yeah. [pause] I feel like other people get some kind of training that I didn't get or something. Like, "When you're in the classroom this is how you talk to a teacher." It's actually it's not completely me. Like my professor does push people's buttons, and very interesting things come out of people's mouths, it's not just me. He is known for pushing people.

THERAPIST: I think that what you just said is true, and you cycle different ways about not getting the training. [29:00]

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Do you think your parents trained you well in how to interact with other people?

CLIENT: No. Wait, this is like so weird.

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: You're like always telling me that you think that other people have a special kind of training, and now that when I say that you're like, "Yeah, uh huh." [laughs]

THERAPIST: No, I was-first of all I was also making a comment that everybody else does except you. You were commenting from the other perspective.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Did you lack aAnd I would say that's-I mean, it's certainly one way of looking at it. I'm not sure if that's the most pertinent thing, but it's one way of looking at it.

CLIENT: No, no, I can really agree. Like I'm glad you just said it very directly, because let's just get that out of the way kind of a thing.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [30:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, it is true, I've been in training. Very few interactions in which... It was like it was-I mean, they were there, but most of them just failed and they were unsuccessful interactions with other people, other adults when my parents were also around, other children. It was very like weird.

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: So when my dad wasn't around, the first six years of my life basically it was just me and my mom. Yeah, I mean, it was like that was fine. But she would take me to this house, friends of friends or friends of relatives, and you know, that guy would try and do stuff to me. I should count that as an unsuccessful interaction, but I guess it could be. Completely like skewed power relations manifested sexually. And it was always about-but then, you know, I'm like, doesn't this happen to everyone? Like you know, you go as a child to someone's house and your parents are like, "Don't eat this, don't do this, don't-" And so I guess I had a bit of that too, where people-like I was told like, "If they offer anything, say no."

But then my dad came on the scene and it was like horrible. And when he was mad it was just like horrible. It was like the whole world just seemed so nasty. And we would go someplace and he would start comparing me to other children and tell me, "This person is going to this school and it's so much better than yours, and he's so much smarter," and like la la la, you know. And if I'd done something bad, like I don't know, spilled something, or like broken something, or said the wrong thing, it was just like on our way back home he would curse me left and right nonstop. And it was horrifying and embarrassing. So I guess I don't know, that's not really-I feel like I didn't really learn social skills that way. [33:00]

THERAPIST: Did you develop a fear of what he would say after you went somewhere?

CLIENT: Yeah. So. I guess maybe that's related to my fear of meeting people now. I definitely get anxious about meeting people.

THERAPIST: Did he communicate that everything that you were doing was wrong?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, he had an opinion about everything. And not just like-later on it kind of extended to my mom also, or maybe I just noticed that it extended to my mom. Like the clothes she wore, the way she dressed, the way she did her hair and makeup and all that, and what she says, completely like ridiculed actually. So. [pause]

THERAPIST: You became curious about the time?

CLIENT: Yeah. I want to keep going and keep going. We have ten minutes?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But yeah, so I guess that has affected me, made me very conscious. But I mean, I don't know. I mean, that was so long ago, so I don't know how much of that is still with me.

THERAPIST: I don't think that kind of experience just goes away.

CLIENT: It doesn't? Hm. [35:00]

THERAPIST: It's there somewhere. [pause] I mean, for you there's so many sources of that chain, there are all sorts of ways in which it developed.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, your father shaming you. Your father I think feeling very ashamed of himself and projecting it on to you and your mother. You mother sort of wanting to convey herself as kind of a pathetic shameful person, although it seems like that evolved over time. And then you imagining the world being this glittery beautiful place and feeling very ashamed of your position in it.

CLIENT: Well, I don't know about glittery, but full of tall people. [chuckles] Very tall things.

THERAPIST: Which in part is a view that your father had, and part of-that your dad put you down vis-�-vis that. I mean, I think that your dad had his own profound sense of shame and insecurity and I think that spilled off onto you. Plus he treated you that way, he treated you like that object that he felt.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And your mother has her own sense of shame.

CLIENT: Yeah. Mm hm. [pause] Well, it would be nice not to look at things that way anymore.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it would. Did your father just all of a sudden appear? Did you even know about him when you were six? [37:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I remember the first time I saw him.

THERAPIST: Did you know he was-like was there any advanced warning, or what happened, he just showed up?

CLIENT: Yeah, I remember. I remember asking my mom about our dad, where is he and all that. I remember. I think there were like a couple of greeting cards he'd send and I would have those, but I can't remember. I used to look at them and then he appeared. Kind of [inaudible]. It did seem like he just appeared one day.

THERAPIST: Do you think your mom knew he was coming back?

CLIENT: I've asked her, but I think like... I think she'd forgotten-not forgotten, but you know, like put that chapter behind her for maybe a couple years or more. And then they started interacting again, maybe via letters or something. And then he must have told her, okay, that thing with the other woman didn't work out. Because he got married, or his mom got him married again, and then he had a child apparently with this other woman. And it didn't work out, so then maybe he wanted my mom back.

THERAPIST: Are you able to legally get married to two or more persons?

CLIENT: No. It is illegal.

THERAPIST: So he wasn't technically ever married to her.

CLIENT: Who, my mom?

THERAPIST: To the second woman.

CLIENT: No, they were married. I don't know. Like years later this backfired on him I remember. I was like ten or something and he had like a court case because of this, because of being married twice. [chuckles] [pause] Yeah, I try not to feel-look at-have that, you know, shame and stuff. But I know that there are moments when I do acutely feel insecure, and that's when I bring back all that garbage from the closet. So I guess the solution is to see when I'm feeling insecure and look at the situation squarely in the face and like say positive things to myself, instead of like putting on those rags, you know. I don't know. But I guess that I haven't been able to do that, so. [pause] [sighs] [40:30]

THERAPIST: Do you remember how you felt when your dad would talk to you that way?

CLIENT: Yeah, really horrible. And very, very scared, very scared.

THERAPIST: Scared. Scared of...

CLIENT: I don't know, just like fear. I was very, very, very, very, very, very, very afraid of my dad. I was very afraid of my dad. There are only like a few times when he beat me and they were like really, really like-like the beating went on for like, it felt, hours. [chuckles] But, you know, it probably was like five, ten minutes. And like I would bleed from my ear, like pee in my pants. So it was like-that happened very few times, but you know, like even that is enough to instill fear. And he would-you know. I'd never seen anyone get so angry before, you know. Like my mom was not like that at all. I think she would curse, but you know, very infrequently. Yeah. But he would just like curse like way too much. So yeah, we were very afraid. [42:00]

THERAPIST: That's horrible.

CLIENT: I know. That's why I feel like you have to take care of your demons before you can have a child, or, you know, try and be a parent. Or anything.

THERAPIST: I'm so sorry that happened to you.

CLIENT: Oh, thank you. It happens to a lot of people.

THERAPIST: It does happen, but I'm still sorry it happened to you. [pause]

CLIENT: Yeah, me too I guess.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I don't think you allow yourself to feel sad for yourself enough.

CLIENT: I feel sad so much.

THERAPIST: You feel sorry for yourself sometimes in a particular way, but I don't know if it's sadness.

CLIENT: What's the difference?

THERAPIST: Sadness seems more emotional.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel sad. I cried a lot this past week. I was looking at old e-mails from Chris, like from five years ago, and really just crying. So yeah.

THERAPIST: What were you crying about when you looked at those?

CLIENT: Well, just that, you know, like wow, I don't remember these, why didn't they have a lasting effect on me? God, this guy really loved me, and, you know, this was amazing, this is perfect, you know, he's perfect. And now I've gone and screwed it all up. And I am actively screwing it. [44:00]

THERAPIST: So you were sad for what you feel you lost?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, guilty, you know, mostly. I was feeling like, why didn't this remain with me instead of something else negative, you know. That's what I'm mad about.

THERAPIST: But it's different than feeling sad for yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like I've felt sad about my childhood, I've felt like, "Oh no, why did this happen, this was so bad." Yeah, I was actively sad back then as well as a child when all this happened I think.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like what would that do if I feel sad?

THERAPIST: Make you feel more whole.

CLIENT: Whole?

THERAPIST: Whole. Complete.

CLIENT: Really? You think I'd like put it aside and try to forget it?

THERAPIST: Maybe not actively.

CLIENT: But that's bad, or...

THERAPIST: I'm trying to sort of articulate the problems with it. I mean, it makes sense, in some ways it's very painful. Do you want to feel every moment of the pain?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But, you know, I think it almost gives too much room for these other feelings that you have.

CLIENT: What do you mean? [46:00]

THERAPIST: Like guilt and shame and-like it kind of it's a little lopsided, you know? There's like there's ways in which you feel shamed and you feel guilty, but then there are all these other feelings that I think could almost balance them out. Like the sadness for yourself and what you experienced. Do you see what I'm saying?

CLIENT: Uh...

THERAPIST: Not really.

CLIENT: I think, but I think I need more help. [chuckles]

THERAPIST: I don't know, I still-I have to think about it more. It's not very well thought out. Intuitively I think that to get in touch with that sadness is very important. To explain why is a little bit more complicated.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Although I do think it would make you feel more whole. I think it would help you to have more empathy for yourself, and I think it would make you feel less on this ladder.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: It would make you feel more just like a person.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I think I see what you're saying.

THERAPIST: You have a way of treating yourself like an object.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, like comparing-you know, it's like sort of objects that you compare with one another, and this is a shinier object, this is a less shiny object. I think the more you feel very much real and a person to yourself the less you'll do that.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: You know, we're going to have to stop for today. So I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Okay, thank you, you too.

CLIENT: Bye.

THERAPIST: Bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT