TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in!

[pause 00:00:38 to 00:01:04]

Good, thank you!

[pause 00:01:05 to 00:01:33]

CLIENT: I was thinking about the last conversation that we had. I guess I don't really understand what it means to feel sad. (chuckles) (inaudible) I think it's can be dangerous to not know the distinction, because, you know, when you asked me like, you've allowed yourself to feel sad, I'm sad so often, I feel (chuckles) that I just said yes and then you were like, that is, you know, that's not sadness; it's guilt or... couple of other negative emotions, bringing myself down, et cetera. (therapist affirms) So, I guess I should know what exactly you mean by feeling sad. [00:02:25]

THERAPIST: Well what comes to your mind about it?

CLIENT: Well... I mean, I guess that it's a slippery slope for me, so I just kind of slip into feeling bad about myself. Yeah. Feeling (ph) myself and then conveying I'm not going to amount to much, or I can't do whatever, because... you know... (pause) Or you know, like, the lack, you know, that I would have, you know? I'm always thinking really small, in every single thing. (chuckles) The feeling bad and sad and so (therapist responds)... [00:03:19]

(pause) Even when I'm happy, there's something lurking in the background that I can see I don't have, and then I feel bad all over again. So... but feeling sad for myself as in my childhood... I guess there have been moments when I've understood that from you, objectively, to mean that making allowances for... myself and like, being very careful, comparing myself to others, you know, and saying that, "Well..." Because then again, you know like, just comparison itself is bad, so what's the point? Like... I don't know. It's confusing now (chuckles), because I look at people I want to be like, and I think that, you know, depending on how I feel, I could think, "Oh, they have this and this and I don't have that." [00:04:34]

But then I if I want them to like me, you know, I want to fulfill the positive, then I might think... it's whatever I don't have, I can make up for it like, you know. I'm sure they don't have certain things I did, I mean... So they don't have the depth of perception or whatever, because they don't see things the way I saw things. So, there's a lot of (chuckles) (inaudible), so... and that's (inaudible) now! (chuckles)

[pause, sighs, pause 00:05:12 to 00:05:49]

I mean that's why I feel like that... I don't know. ... So that is kind of delighted (ph) that I... see the past few years, and longer, that... you know... I want to say more destiny and fate. (chuckles) I don't know what, that just feels like... you know, you see, you get a certain life, and you get a certain childhood, and you can say, "Oh, well that's, that was just my destiny." You know, obviously it's sad that it happened, but when you say it's destiny for you like, "Okay, that was out of my control. I was a child, I couldn't have chosen my parents, and this is what I got so, moving on then..." [00:06:46]

But then, it's like, "Okay, what is a person like me, with a destiny like mine, what kind of life can I make for myself?" I mean, I had a very nice option to like, stick with, you know, computer science or you know, software and just like, like a quiet and decent life and, you know... But I didn't want that. I wanted to have a more fulfilling intellectual life, but then the people, whom I encounter in that world, came from very different backgrounds, and a lot of times, affluent backgrounds. No one seemed to have... but now I'm realizing that. Some people were like me, but... No one (ph) seemed to have had the kind of childhood I had. [00:07:45]

So when I encountered such people like, a few friends and like, Chris (ph) and then we just-I got into this comparison role, I guess. (inaudible) At times, I guess when I'm feeling bad, I just really felt bad and you know, you've heard me talk about those times. But then other times, when I wanted to be like them, I didn't allow myself to feel sad, think about my childhood, and I was sort of like, in denial mode, you know, dealing with it. "I can surmount the lack. I can be like that person. Let me try." And then I feel like I tried and then I failed miserably, because I didn't have the (sighs) like, emotional or psychological wherewithal to stand some of the hardships that people in my field encounter. [00:08:49]

Like, you know like, a slew of rejections and you know, that was all that it took for me to like, go crazy, you know? I feel like someone else, with a better sanity background, would not have like, collapsed like I did. I mean I feel humbled (ph), it just feels better. (chuckles) So, that's where I stand on sadness. Like I can... I don't allow myself to feel sad so I can do stuff, (inaudible). But when I do allow myself to feel sad, it's more just me like, putting myself down. (therapist responds) (pause) That's why I asked to see you, please tell me what you mean by (chuckles), a little more, about sad. (ph) [00:09:54]

THERAPIST: (pause) Feeling sad that you had to suffer the things that you've suffered in life... which is not the same thing as pity.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. (pause) Yeah. It's very hard for me to understand this. Is that surprising? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Why not? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Is it surprising that it's hard for you to understand? (client affirms) No! Why would it be surprising? [00:10:52]

CLIENT: It seems like you're saying something very simple! But I just like, I'm completely (chuckles) baffled by this, by the emotion, because I feel like I'm so emotional. I feel like I'm very experienced with all kinds of emotions! (chuckles) But maybe, maybe it's not about experiencing the emotion, but understanding it. Like, it's a cognitive like, instead of... emotional, maturity or immaturity. (pause) Yeah, because like, I feel suddenly fused with my mom when we talk about sadness, and then it's like... you know, that is another, you know, can of worms that has also exploded here (chuckles), that has exploded here. [00:11:55]

THERAPIST: How do you feel fused, when you think about sadness?

CLIENT: Well, you know like, she and I were together in that mess, right? So, when I feel sad, I feel fused with her, and you know like, destiny, fate, and lot. You know, so it's like, she and I have the same lot, we are in the same lot.

THERAPIST: But not at all! She was an adult (client affirms), who was living her life as a woman, a married woman and a mother. You were a kid! That's not remotely the same.

CLIENT: (pause) Hmm. (pause) Well, she does say that she had a better childhood than me, sometimes. (chuckles) [00:12:47]

THERAPIST: Really? That's interesting. (pause) How do you feel when she says that?

CLIENT: I like it. (chuckles) And I feel a little jealous, but I like it. Like, "I want to know that; tell me," you know? I want to... be... her sibling! (chuckles) So I can have her dad. Because the little I've heard of, you know, he was a good, kind man, so (therapist responds)...

[pause 00:13:30 to 00:14:49]

So like, feeling sad and being whole, does that mean like, knowing your limitations?

THERAPIST: What are you, where... what are your thoughts about that?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: If that's... Something brought that to mind.

CLIENT: Oh. Yeah, so I mean that... like, you know, the whole thing here is that I should know myself. What does that mean, you know like, taking care of yourself and being whole, feeling whole? So what does that look like, you know? I'm thinking of people who I think seem whole, able to take care of things that open (ph)... the moment when they feel, they come across as whole people, or people who, is when they say "no" to things like, "Oh, do you want to go do this?" And I'm like, "No, I should go home and take a nap." (chuckles) I get like that sometimes like... I feel distinct (inaudible) sometimes. [00:16:00]

(pause) But that's exactly what I've been fighting against, or I don't know... maybe I've fought against it (ph). (chuckles) (pause) But I feel like all these, all my peers have, who are being successful right now... is because, is, well whatever, but you know what I mean, like (inaudible), but one meanings (ph) is that they're always trying new things. They're doing just that, and I'm just like, "Wow! I never considered that American firm, that..." I mean, I knew about it such things, but I never considered them.

[pause 00:16:45 to 00:17:06]

I don't know. Flogging yourself is so hard, because then I'm like... I don't know. I'm so confused! (chuckles) Maybe it's...

[pause 00:17:17 to 00:17:42]

Yeah, it's totally like, I feel like I'd better deal with it like, I...

[pause 00:17:48 to 00:18:11]

I feel like I don't, I lose the center, sometimes, of family or you know... Do you think I'll ever have whole?

THERAPIST: Oh. Where is that question coming from?

CLIENT: (pause) I'm lost, so like, claim the power or center or anything, you know?

[pause 00:18:39 to 00:20:04]

(inaudible), because I'm poor, I feel (therapist responds)... I feel like, people who will have some like, stable families, roles are obeyed definitely, have a very good chance of them having a stable core, a solid core. (pause) Yeah, so like, yesterday or the day before, I found out that this girl in my class from MSU just got a big deal, so I mean, she's the first of our class to make it. You know, obviously, I'm happy, but I'm very, very scared and nervous and like... not jealous, you know, what would that do? But you know like... I want that! That's my dream and I, I'm like, very afraid, will that happen for me still? I'm still like, concerned and I have to polish my draft and start sending it out... [00:21:11]

So yesterday, at school, I was at the Bursar's Office and was told that I owe the school $5,000. It turned out to be a mistake, but like, for like at least like, ten minutes, I was contemplating, seriously contemplating dropping out, because there is like, anger in me. I don't think I'm getting that much out of it (chuckles) to spend $5000! I'd rather spend that somewhere else or, you know like, I was very worried, because, you know, I have to pay my rent and my mom's rent... again, you know like (chuckles)... Like, really, really feeling... you know...

I was like, What am I doing? Why should I break up with Chris, who is letting me stay for free, you know, who is intellectual, he cares about me? (chuckles) So... I wanted to drop out, just because I was like... feeling the pressure, because my friend had, you know, got a book deal and I hadn't. I was like, you know, "School is just taking time away from working on my novel. I should just drop out and spend every single day working," which actually does make objective sense, too. (chuckles) But that's still like, dropping out the next day would be such a rash decision; it made me feel like, impulsive. I don't know... [00:22:42]

(pause) I don't know. It's like I feel being impulsive makes me actually get stuff done. Like, it's a new experience. (ph) I don't know. Crazy? Or something? I don't know. Why, what are the drawbacks of being impulsive?

[pause, sighs, pause 00:23:13 to 00:23:45]

Maybe I don't like core. (ph) Maybe I don't need a core. Is that possible?

THERAPIST: You don't think you need a core? (client affirms) Well, what do you think the core would help you do?

CLIENT: I don't know. What does it look like? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It was your concept!

CLIENT: Well, I suddenly thought of... the couple of years... Four? (inaudible)... Whatever... But like, when Chris, my mom and I were laying together... I don't know, just (inaudible) certain Sunday evenings, how boring they are to me. Chris (inaudible). (chuckles) I just like, stick with negative impressions, and then it colors like, the whole picture of the certain phase (ph) of life. Then I'm just like, "That was bad!" Like, everything about it was just bad, just because of, you know, one negative impression. [00:25:05]

(pause) I think I completely lost track (chuckles) of what we started out with and what I'm saying. (pause) I don't know. I guess the core would be like... like, when someone punches you, or you experience a whiplash of some sort, your back doesn't (inaudible), you know? That's what like, because I have a bad back and they tell me to work on my core, so... And I worked on my core (chuckles). That means that, I can walk about town, with my laptop on my, in my backpack, you know, so you're not... be like, "I'm collapsing right now," you know? And I can run, and I can manage my pain relief (inaudible), manage my injury. [00:26:32]

(pause) So... like, when things happen like... (sighs) other people getting more success than me... but, if that's all I think about right then, then I don't start, you know, freaking out, and going crazy, and going home like... You know, they (inaudible) while I stink (ph), but I mope a little, I overeat a little, but then, in the next few hours, I'm back on my track, you know, back on... I'm doing, sticking to my plan, I'm working, you know, meeting friends and (therapist responds)... [00:27:16]

(pause) But I feel like my core consists of wrong things. (chuckles) It doesn't consist of a mom and a dad, and siblings, you know... a home somewhere (chuckles). It consists of like, a novel and you know, ideas for other things and... classmates and... I don't know, more or less, what I've created, one, I don't know, whatever, you know? (chuckles) And books and movies... Some of these things will go away. I mean, some of these things have potential to do the burdening, and turn into failures, you know? But some of these will fulfill me like, books and movies will fulfill me (chuckles), so they could be my parents, I guess. They have been like (therapist responds)... (chuckles) (pause) Is that silly or pathetic, to have a core made up of books? (chuckles) [00:28:47]

THERAPIST: You ask me a lot of questions that you have thoughts about.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) The answer is no, because like, I mean, it's sad, that's what I mean, but you come back to what we started with like, sad. Like, there are so many artists, American artists, who experience such horrible childhoods, and then turn out famous. So I would expect they'd say that their core, also, was books, you know. If it weren't for books, they would... they would be dead, I don't know.

We talk about them in our class, you know. And we're like, "That is sad, what happened," because, you know, they've explored their experience. But then, it's also uplifting, that there has been meaning (ph). But then, you know, it's like, "Okay, so, you know, our definition of success, you know, is so like, (inaudible). If they hadn't made it, would we be talking about them?" (chuckles) Then I would totally be sad and pathetic.

[pause 00:30:04 to 00:30:47]

I don't know. I... feel like, maybe... maybe I should experience sadness is that it's sad and it should make me cry, but it's also beautiful, because of whatever, you know like, looking at it from an artist's point of view, you know. It's, you know, it has several layers of meaning, so that makes it worth, you know, investigating whatever I'm working on, makes it beautiful. But... Like, I don't, I hate it, if it makes me feel limited, you know? That's what I hate about it. (therapist responds) So, that's why I can't... understand or allow myself to be sad like, if it becomes a hindrance to... being expansive and to do everything that everyone else is doing. (chuckles)

[pause 00:31:53 to 00:32:23]

I guess that's why... that was my feeling about like, going and staying in the house with this historian and, you know, her father, with her parents, because, you know like, earlier, I would be very shy around them, and be like, "Oh, these people are very influential. I'm just a software person." I mean, he actually... You know, we have, we come from very different backgrounds, we have very different circles. We can only (inaudible) like, respectful of each other, not friendly. Then when we were friendly, it was because now I am a struggling artist, whatever.

Then I got the opportunity to go and stay at her place and work, and I was like, "I will take that up," you know? Like, I don't want my childhood or my background to be a hindrance. You know, I don't want that to be, to have any part of my identity, which is, I guess, I've... I knew, it's like you aren't whole, you weren't feeling, you won't feel whole if you don't take that with you. [00:33:26]

But I didn't want that baggage to go with me. I wanted to be unencumbered and I wanted to be just me, and struggling (therapist responds)... and someone talented, and someone who dreams. I wanted, that's what I thought making friends will help me to become, that that's what I really want, interactions with them. (sighs) But, other people may have agendas, and they may not want to see me like that. They may... because I feel like, her dad is a pervert, and he... So I just, but I think that's what it is. Like, he had an agenda, and he, he brought that baggage, and dragged it out of somewhere, and kept like, slapping it on me, every single time we met. You know, "Oh, I feel bad for you, you didn't have a father." You know, every single time, he said that to me. [00:34:27]

It was like, "What the fuck where the fuck is this coming from, you know? No, I'm just, you know like, I am poor and weak, and yet, you know, struggling and having fun, you know? But he didn't want that, right? He wanted to crush me and... seduce me or whatever. (therapist responds) So in that scenario, I don't know like, what should I have done differently? What... would I, if I had had a stronger core, would I have punched back and said... kept denying him, saying no, I'm doing fine (ph), you know? You know, I felt sad for myself, instead. But I feel that's what I did. I allowed myself to feel sad. You know? and he said, "Oh, poor you!" And I was like, "Yeah, poor me!" (chuckles) I don't know. (pause) I guess you can't expect your core to get you out of every bad thing. (chuckles) [00:35:34]

THERAPIST: With a core, you would have thought he was just crazy. (repeats)

CLIENT: I mean, I do think now that he was crazy. (pause) I'm mean, now that I have experienced that, I know obviously the next time someone says, "Oh, poor you," I'd be like, "You know, this is all (inaudible)." (chuckles) You know. So... (pause) Yeah, so I think... (sighs) I understand what it means to feel sad, whatever it is. (pause) It feels like it will get in the way of me feeling... that anything is possible and like, living (inaudible).

[pause 00:36:47 to 00:37:23]

Don't you think that's true?

THERAPIST: What part are you...?

CLIENT: Sort of like, feeling sad can be a hindrance to doing things.

THERAPIST: It depends on how you mean it.

CLIENT: (pause) What do you mean? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, how do you imagine it being a hindrance?

CLIENT: (pause) Well, like I described earlier like, I see other people, you know, doing X, Y, Z, and I feel like I would be like... normal and not going to do those things, because I'm too shy or I am afraid of rejection or, you know, or maybe, you know, logistically, I can't do it with them. "Oh, I have to make money, because who will pay your mom's rent, you know?" [00:38:22]

THERAPIST: How is that feeling sad? I'm not sure what makes that sad.

CLIENT: Well, I thought being sad meant knowing your limitations.

THERAPIST: (pause) I guess I don't understand. Sad is a feeling. (client affirms) (pause) How is a feeling related to limitations?

CLIENT: I don't know. It feels linked. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (pause) Are you associating feeling sad with feeling discouraged? (client affirms) I see. You think I'm encouraging you to feel discouraged?

CLIENT: No. (chuckles) I'm asking you what it means to be sad. I don't understand it like...

THERAPIST: (affirms) "I'm sad that these things happen to me." [00:39:28]

CLIENT: (pause) And then what to do you do, after that?

THERAPIST: You live your life. (pause) I think you are sad, but I think you do a lot of things that push that sadness away, or turn it into something else that I do think impedes you. (client affirms) I think you take the sadness, you sometimes turn it into feeling sorry for yourself, and maybe angry or victimized. So it's not that you don't feel sad, but it's what you do with the sadness that I don't think serves you in the end.

There are a lot of things for you to be sad about in your life. (client affirms) There is a lot that you weren't given, and there is a lot of very bad treatment; but you had no control over it, nothing you could do about it, because children, by definition, are helpless, to a large extent. It is sad, it is very sad the way your dad treated you. It was sad the way a lot of... [00:40:45]

(pause) It was sad the way your mother treated you, that was more an outgrowth of just, her feeling sort of bitter about her lot in life, and the way she treated you as an extension of that. (client responds) Your dad was far more malicious. (client affirms) (pause) And the story of your getting beaten... I know it wasn't a constant or, you know, frequent event, but it was very sad to think about a little girl, afraid of her father who could be violent. It's very sad. (client affirms) (pause) I feel sad for you, when I think about those things, but I also feel very hopeful for you. [00:41:58]

CLIENT: Well, that's good. (chuckles)

[pause 00:42:02 to 00:42:38]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: Hmm... It makes me sad and hopeful. (chuckles) (pause) I feel like this lets me like, sad as (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Sometimes there are just a lot of other things mixed up with it. (client chuckles and agrees) Jealousy, anger... the name, too. (ph)

[pause 00:43:14 to 00:43:47]

CLIENT: I guess I'm wondering what, how would it be like, to feel whole if I feel sad (inaudible)? That's the part... I'm going to... (pause) It's really not about your limitations?

THERAPIST: I don't, I don't know. I mean, I don't actually understand how the two are connected, but they could be connected in your mind. (pause) I mean, we all have limitations, but I'm not sure how the sadness is connected to that. (client responds)

(pause) Well, Cecelia (ph),we're going to need to stop for today. So you have to remind me that this Monday doesn't work for you, is that correct? (client affirms) Do you want to find another time to meet?

CLIENT: Sure, yeah. [00:45:07]

THERAPIST: Let me take a look, let me just take a look at my schedule. (pause) So, what days would work better for you? Do you have... Like, I have 10:00 on Tuesday, but for some reason... Is Tuesday a day that would work?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay. I have time Thursday afternoon, or Friday.

CLIENT: Yeah, either of those days would work.

THERAPIST: Do you want to do... I have a 2:10 on Thursday the 7th. Would that work?

CLIENT: On the Friday?

THERAPIST: On Friday, I have 9:10.

CLIENT: I can do 9:10.

THERAPIST: Okay, great. (client affirms) So, I'll see you next... I'll see you next Wednesday then. (client affirms) Okay! Very good. Take care, Cecelia.

CLIENT: You, too. Have a good weekend!

THERAPIST: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT