TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I just vacuumed. Yeah.

CLIENT: Anything can change.

THERAPIST: That's a good deal (inaudible)

CLIENT: It's been a while.

(PAUSE): [00:00:09 00:01:27]

CLIENT: I'm wondering what has happened since then and stuff. Was the conversation about sadness and stuff like that? I don't really understand. I guess I was trying to understand but then I just kind of put it aside. I guess I can understand it better when I think of other people and the stuff they do. Like if I were counseling them I would say, 'don't be sad,' but then I would know. Like I'd would never tell them 'don't be too sad or don't feel limitations.' But in the context of other people I understood it, but not in my own. It's weird. Like when I tell Chris, 'that's okay we didn't work out. That's not your (unclear) reflection on your (Unclear) or anything.' But then if I fail at something I'm sad, I totally take it in that direction that I'm not good enough or I'm not smart enough or I don't have this or that so therefore (unclear). Do you think that's interesting? [00:03:07]

THERAPIST: I'm not sure how to answer that question.

CLIENT: Well it's just like having different standards for myself than other people.

THERAPIST: Do you feel that I would think that's not interesting?

CLIENT: No. (inaudible). I guess people have different standards for themselves.

(Pause): [00:03:29 00:03:41]

THERAPIST: Do you worry sometimes I'm not listening or engaged?

CLIENT: No. I guess it's my fear of what other people say. I don't know why I fear that so much. But I do fear it, yeah.

(Pause): [00:04:03 00:04:19]

CLIENT: I do it all the time with Chris and my mom. I tune her out a lot of times. But I know that that does not mean that I don't love her but it does make me feel bad that I do that. Take her for granted. But when other people do it to me I get really scared and then it's a big fear. I don't know why.

(Pause): [00:04:52 00:45:43]

CLIENT: I'm just learning about things like with this new guy, one time we were walking and (inaudible) and I was talking about my uncle with whom I'm not in touch anymore (unclear) and I want to get back in touch with my extended family. And I don't think he was listening he was walking into stores and looking at stuff and I felt very bad, you know. I felt totally lost but that feeling has other reasons like Chris would never do this. Even if he would I would still not feel as insecure as I do right now, so totally lost, so insecure. What am I doing with this guy? Why am I opening up to him totally like totally feeling vulnerable and very scared? It was a weird moment but I just remembered that like was scared by that now, like having dinner with him somewhere outside and him not really talking and I feel like I'm not at a place with him where there can be these comfortable silences. I've had those with my mom and Chris but I'm not with this guy. I've known him for a month. So it's I guess I'm learning about things about myself like how I react and why I wonder why I react certain ways and when I'm okay around (unclear).

Like last week I found out that he was dating other girls. But I don't know who said that his parents are making him meet these women on a matrimonial website. So like I don't trust him but it's like and I know that he only (unclear). But it doesn't mean that I have Chris on my mind and in my life but it's basically like there's such loss of innocence, both of us are like seeing each other while keeping our options open (unclear) which makes me feel sad not in an emotional sense but like in an intellectual sense over this loss of innocence. [00:08:01]

That makes me feel unsafe and horrible and scared. But in a way it's like it doesn't matter I guess. What's the worst that can happen? I'm not going to feel sad for too long. I can move on. I can cry and be sad but then move on like (inaudible). [00:08:54]

And it sounds like sitting here thinking and talking about it that (unclear). You can't really know someone that much. Even when I was younger that's what I thought it would be. That's what it's supposed to be. You're supposed to know someone completely and totally but that doesn't work out (inaudible). I knew too much about Chris and I worry too much and like you said, my relationship with him is so complex. It's because I invested way to much head space in him and I really shouldn't have and I didn't mean to. I should have invested more in a physical chemistry and should have invested more in having fun and we didn't but (unclear). [00:09:52]

I'm learning the solution only after kind of stepping out of it and seeing.

(PAUSE): [00:10:07 00:10:20]

CLIENT: I tried to break things off last Thursday and (unclear) let me see whether (unclear) and I just stopped and (unclear) said, 'this is not working.' And Chris said, 'let's give it another try.' And I was totally like you know it's just about sleeping together that's all that matters to him. And that makes me feel like, it makes me feel used and I know you said that I'm using him too. But still it's like the other person is like (inaudible). The fact that you've done something wrong doesn't make the other person wrong.

THERAPIST: It really actually begs the question of what it means to use another person.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE): [00:10:07 00:11:34]

CLIENT: It does make me sad. It makes me feel like makes me run back over basically. Like he wouldn't do that. He's still pure. But then when I lived with him I was so bored. It's funny, I'm just bored no matter what. I'm not actually, but okay. So maybe I should understand what I mean by bored. Although it's like dangerous territory to me (unclear).

THERAPIST: What's dangerous about it?

CLIENT: You know everything I explore just gets messy, becomes like a tangled web because I'm not clear thinking, clear, logical linear thinking (unclear). (Unclear) arrange things literally. [00:12:27]

THERAPIST: There is with Chris, there is intellectual stimulation but I guess I get lazy and I don't do my own head work which I'm trying to do.

(PAUSE): [00:12:57 00:13:08]

CLIENT: So there is that and the potential of discussing many things is there. And maybe sometimes I don't see it so that's (unclear) and there is like not much chemistry from my side of things are like that spark is not there so that could be a part of boredom. And then with this other guy there is not much intellectual stimulation so even the possibility of it is very small but there is that spark. I guess when I'm feeling neither is when I get bored and like scared enough to think, 'what do I do now? I need something. How do I fill this empty moment if there isn't enough stimulation? That's when I'm scared. Maybe that's what happens here.

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: It's when a session is everything's wrong (unclear). We're women and not really sexually attracted to you so it's not the possibility of that but still like when I'm not speaking or when I'm not connecting with you, when I'm looking for you to say something brilliant and don't, I guess. That's when I'm like, 'ohh, not very good.'

THERAPIST: Well, I think it then sort of speaks to where it needs to come back or how it feels like when I'm not talking I'm not connected. Or maybe the ways in which you feel disconnected from me assuming that I feel disconnected to you. When I'm not talking and am listening, I feel very connected to you. But it doesn't sound like it feels that way to you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know why. I think I take that to other relationships. And the guy did ask me, 'what do you do when I connect (unclear)? We do talk I guess (unclear) conversation with Chris and I feel like I do learn to be more articulate. I mean I am getting something (unclear).

CLIENT: I don't know what connection is like. I don't know. Sometimes I feel connected to people and other times I don't and when I don't is when I'm like when I'm really scared and I feel lonely and I feel lost. And it depends on the time of the day or the week, I guess how what I do with that feels (inaudible).

(PAUSE): [00:16:41 00:16:47]

CLIENT: Like I guess that I was hoping that the guy would tell me about (unclear) and he wasn't listening and so it's very scary (unclear). [00:16:54] I guess it was that whole like evening when we were driving and he was talking on the phone to someone and then he got off the phone and we started walking and so I think for hours I felt disconnected from him and I guess maybe I thought, 'this is not working,' and so I felt even more scared so (unclear) I just feel I don't know, very, very scared.

(PAUSE): [00:17:37 00:17:48]

CLIENT: I feel totally connected to my mom. Like I know her for longer than 30 years now. I know her too well, you know? I know what she's been through. I know her history in the past and like and I know her strengths and weaknesses and (unclear) in the way that I don't treat them well (unclear) like that. And I feel like when she (unclear) she's not (inaudible) but I know that she always will be there and she always will love me and (unclear). So that kind of like security is like I feel totally secure in that. And I can (unclear) why we keep her out and not listen to what she says. And I can ignore her for days and weeks and then (unclear) and then get nice like last night I was all these (unclear) like she said she's mean to me and I've been ignoring her (laughing). (Unintelligible). I was not really trying to keep her like dropping him off at the airport and stuff. So I guess I'll hang out with her. But you know that relationship I feel somewhat secure about and I feel with all these other (unclear) emotions like, 'oh, I hate her. I don't want to see her. I'm mad at her. I'm stressed.' There is that security. With Chris there also is security, there is connection I think. But there is an (unclear) on the other stuff that happened and there is no chemical charge and also I feel that I lost my (unclear). [00:20:19]

THERAPIST: Well, you've also described times where you feel with Chris that he doesn't understand your feelings and he sort of dismisses them. That you put them out there and they just sort of fall to the ground.

CLIENT: Yeah. That was in 2000 yeah, since the second thing you just said, I think that was last year. I've come a long way since then. Well, not a long way but my new perspective on this is that yeah, he's not emotional so I have to figure out other ways of dealing with my emotions and I feel like I have been. I don't know, I just don't feel like the same person that I was in 2012 when I was involved with Victor. I distinctly remember telling you the moment that I was telling him about my father he hugged me and kissed me like saying to me that I felt total physical, mental and emotional connection with him and I put that moment on a pedestal and then everything else I ever shared with anyone just completely paled in comparison. I feel like at that moment that was in March 2012, I'm no longer that person. I no longer have the need of telling someone, 'oh, my dad did this,' and have them comfort me. I feel so sad about not being that person. I mean I feel good about not being that person but the sadness is because that person was sweet and innocent and like a little child. Now I'm like, yeah, whatever. Let's talk about work, let's talk about let's have sex, let's have a drink, let's watch a movie. Let's yeah. I feel like all these things, this list is superficial and that woman that thing was hallowed in my head, is still hallowed but I feel, I see if it falls, (unclear) it's like a little girl and you don't want to be a little girl because their like monsters out there you know. They'll trample you, you know.

THERAPIST: Well, they are monsters in relation to you because as a little girl you're powerless so that powerlessness creates monsters. But it's a really, I was thinking about this because this is the second time today that you've brought up innocence.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So the question is, once you lose your innocence, your (unclear) like is it just simply like the crassness of life at the other end? Or is there something that still can be meaningful and even at times magical? [00:23:56]

CLIENT: I would like to think that way. I mean I'm not a totally negative person. But yeah it is magical like they're going to feel like I lost my innocence because I stepped out of (unclear) and I'm paying the price for it in rent and stuff. And when I'm with this other guy sometimes I do think (unclear) is feeling guilty inside but then it is magic. Like chemistry is magic except that it makes me feel guilty afterwards.

THERAPIST: Guilty?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Guilty about what?

CLIENT: Well I think of Chris and I feel bad.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you're hurting him?

CLIENT: Yeah, cheating on him.

THERAPIST: So when you emerge from innocence there is betrayal, possibility of betrayal, greed.

CLIENT: Well, it would be like going out and getting what I want. It's coming at a price and all that but I want it so I go ahead and get it but there's also that I'm not supposed to get it like other people have other ways of dealing with the same but if I'm doing it (unclear) and they don't step out from their relationships and I have and I'm weaker than them or I don't have a family that has a stable background and kept me from doing this. But then I'm just like, I actually would like someone to say (unclear) I have to make allowances. I don't have a stable family, it really was true love. I shouldn't pretend that it wasn't. I should empathize with my (unclear) and understand that this is I'm living life on my own terms for the first time and these are good experiences and God doesn't hate me. [00:25:46]

But can you feel it? I mean it's not like a hole on the other side of things there's -

THERAPIST: Yes. I said it slightly differently because I said I think there's the question that's sort of can there be on the other side of innocence leading for sure back to sort of meaning and also magic versus a kind of crass crudeness, you know, let's just fuck and screw each other over and deal with the mundane gritty parts of life and -

CLIENT: Well, I'm going to eat that.

(PAUSE): [00:27:38 00:27:50]

CLIENT: But the whole, like the whole fucking thing is that I read too much into it. Like I feel like, I still think that sex should be beautiful and should be meaningful. It shouldn't be fucking. I mean there's a difference between fucking and making love whatever (unclear). I cannot think too much about (unclear) than I do with this guy but it's just hard not to accept.

THERAPIST: Do you enjoy sex with him?

CLIENT: I don't call it sex. I definitely enjoy the foreplay because I am very attracted to him but then and this is weird, he can't, he lets me (unclear) back, but I find fucking, him not facing me and I'm not properly (unclear) and all that and then him coming all over me like I have to wipe myself (laughing) and he like tossing a towel at me and (inaudible) like, 'wear a condom,' and (inaudible). And I don't like that.

THERAPIST: Do you not are you not using birth control?

CLIENT: No. I feel like that it's like a power thing (unclear). I want him to perhaps go to a doctor and perhaps get a prescription like it's complicated isn't it? Take one every day or something?

THERAPIST: Yeah, when I said birth control, I didn't mean condoms. I made it a broad category.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you want to get pregnant?

CLIENT: With the right person, probably with Chris later on. After I finish my book.

THERAPIST: Well, it might seem obviously, but you might get pregnant if you're having sex and not using any sort of contraception.

CLIENT: Well, like I said, it's not sex.

THERAPIST: I see. So you're just having anal sex.

CLIENT: Yeah. No.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So that I feel that (inaudible). Are we done? [30:43]

THERAPIST: No, we have over 10 minutes. Would you like us to be done?

CLIENT: No. I'm slightly uncomfortable.

THERAPIST: Yeah? I guess our talking about it.

CLIENT: Weird. It's okay, like we're adults, right? Yeah, I enjoy the foreplay a lot. So would you encourage me not to read into that? Or -

THERAPIST: Read into?

CLIENT: The way he does it like in the back. It's not (unclear).

THERAPIST: You mean you're not facing each other.

CLIENT: Yeah, I find that to be really crass.

THERAPIST: Have you talked to him about it?

CLIENT: No. Not yet.

CLIENT: But he says he finds it easier for him because he has anxieties. I don't get it. How do you date so many women like he says, why do you have sexual anxieties? Something doesn't add up there, right?

THERAPIST: What doesn't add up for you?

CLIENT: I don't know. If someone has sexual anxieties, the man has sexual anxieties, how can he invite women, like ask women out, like ask as many women as he does. He's like, 'when I go out with them I tell myself I'll try and flirt with them and then when they're ready, I'll drop them. (Unclear), what are you doing with (unclear)? [00:33:04]

Are we still seeing each other and it's been this long only because I'm ready to sleep with you? And I'm like, 'okay, it's okay if you have anxieties. I'm not making any demands.' But then I'm like I don't feel too bad about that because I am getting what I want you know, sometimes, half the time.

But sex with Chris is different. Like I don't enjoy the foreplay at all. I have to get aroused on my own somehow and then when we're actually doing it I do enjoy it because he's there, he's present, I see his face and I love him and like the actual act is enjoyable but it doesn't make me like, it doesn't give me an orgasm like I enjoy watching him and stuff. It's weird, isn't it? Like we enjoy the actual act but not the stuff before it. Just the stuff afterwards. So weird.

THERAPIST: But you feel connected to him at the moment.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean the anxieties are there that I'm uninhibited and this is a person that I respect and he's so smart and he knows so much and all those things are like they're on the surface and I'm fighting hard to ignore them. (Unclear) not right now. But with the other guy those things are not there because with the other guy there not as important as having fun until he's just like (inaudible).

(PAUSE): [00:35:10 00:35:27]

CLIENT: I don't really know what to do. What's the meaning of these different sexual experiences? Well I guess there is magic in (inaudible) and meaning, some meaning.

(PAUSE): [00:35:48 00:36:11]

CLIENT: But it is like connection is a very big thing to me. And even I don't understand what I mean by it. And it's funny because it's not like with one guy I have perfect connection all the time. I don't feel that way. I think maybe I've talked so much about how I've felt disconnected from him because he's preoccupied and all that. He went to Europe, I think I told you that. But he went there for a company and all the time he was thinking about something and so I felt disconnected and even if he wasn't thinking about something, even if he was like kissing me or hugging me on the streets of Paris I still felt disconnected. Maybe it was my own anxieties. It's like I'm (unclear) by being preoccupied. So I have to deal with my own anxieties first. Do you think that's what it is, like the big part of feeling disconnected from others, especially boyfriends?

THERAPIST: Anxiety?

CLIENT: Yeah. Feeling insecure about whatever and -

(PAUSE): [00:37:48 00:38:00]

THERAPIST: Is that what you think?

CLIENT: I think so. I think the problem is here, more than there. Yeah, probably 90%.

(PAUSE): [00:38:12 00:38:22]

THERAPIST: What do you think would make here and here better?

CLIENT: That.

THERAPIST: I was going to say, this.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You've seen progress, right?

CLIENT: I have. Maybe we should celebrate.

THERAPIST: How shall we celebrate? Cupcakes?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'll bake cupcakes for Friday. I think I'm getting there but slowly and then I go back and forth. Are we done?

THERAPIST: No. Five minutes.

CLIENT: Yeah, this dinner I went to with a friend, this guy I met from school, his mom was in town and his brother and his friend were eating at this place and I was hanging out with this new guy and he and I went there to join them. This was like a fancy place and like all things like a meat market and the hostess was tall and she was wearing something very short and there was no back to her dress and I watched to see him watch every single woman that passed and I was like, 'Chris would never do that.' I was wearing jeans and a pullover and I felt very insecure and then I was laughing with my friend the whole time and this guy didn't know anyone. I didn't know anyone except my friend, you know, like so this guy was on his phone the whole time and I felt totally disconnected and totally insecure because I was trying to show him off and I was like, 'here meet my friend.' And I was thinking about that, about why I was feeling disconnected and insecure. Probably because of the whole environment made me feel insecure and probably my own anxieties. It's like when I get insecure I'm like reaching a trying to grab onto something, someone and I feel like no matter what they do if they're aloof which these guys happen to be at the time, I'm totally like, I'm so anxious.

THERAPIST: When you said it was getting better over here and then here did you feel kind of disconnected at that moment?

CLIENT: Yeah. I felt hope.

(PAUSE): [00:41:33 00:42:00]

CLIENT: It is hard to connect to someone who is depressed, right? Where

THERAPIST: Where? What line are you thinking along?

CLIENT: Just generally. I don't often think of myself in the third person and hover over and look at myself. But that's like if I am depressed, if I am a depressed person then that makes me someone hard to connect to.

THERAPIST: Do you feel you are a depressed person?

CLIENT: No. Because I don't think of me in that way. I think I'm confused.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don't think of you as depressed either.

CLIENT: Oh good. More confused than -

THERAPIST: Distressed at times but not depressed.

CLIENT: That's good news.

(PAUSE): [00:42:59 00:44:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, I haven't felt connected with my mom either. I said it but now I realize that there actually have been lots and lots of times I did feel like I want to talk to her and she doesn't say anything and I want to connect with her and she is totally like uncommunicative.

THERAPIST: That's actually where I thought you were going when you first asked the question of if you could connect with someone who is depressed. I thought you were referring to your mother.

CLIENT: Ahh. I certainly don't want to think of her as depressed although I'm sure she has why did you think that?

THERAPIST: That was the first thing that came to my mind.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (Unclear), we've got to stop.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So I will see you on Friday at 9:10.

CLIENT: 9:10. Okay.

THERAPIST: Yes. Great.

CLIENT: See you then.

THERAPIST: Okay. Will see you then. Take care.

END TRANSCRIPT