TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Come on in! (pause) (inaudible) [00:00:27]

CLIENT: (pause) I guess last time I was talking about connections and thinking like, it's mostly my fault (chuckles), but how I feel insecure in myself so... No matter what the other person does, I feel, um... disconnected from them. But sometimes, I feel like there isn't, or I can't really trace the source of insecurity or the reason for feeling insecure at that moment, that day, you know? (therapist responds) [00:01:51]

Like, this week, I don't know why that there was a reason to feel insecure. I guess my workshops have ended for the semester and like... School is still going on, but like... submitting work and getting comments, that portion is done. So maybe I'm feeling a little, I don't know like, I now have more free time, so I'm making a schedule and (sighs) a new schedule and seeing when, what to write, and all that.

But I don't know if I'm (chuckles) insecure particularly but like, the last couple of days I was really like, feeling like, just anxious or whatever about like, this new guy and why he doesn't call (chuckles). (therapist responds) He divides his time between D.C. and Ohio and he's... Most of the week he's in Ohio, but still, if he like... I guess I am that sort of person like, just always looks at lack (chuckles). But I feel like it's a new thing, because earlier like, I didn't really care that he was the one texting, he was the one pursuing, and I was just like, "Yeah, let's do it. Yeah, let's do that." [00:03:22]

Like recently, I've felt like I'm opening up or, to him or something, and now that I am, I'm like, "Wait. Why isn't he calling, why isn't he texting?" You know, this is not a relationship. I keep comparing it with my previous experiences like, after a month of seeing Chris (sp), you know, we were constantly on the phone. Like, we were in love and we would, you know, tell each other that (chuckles). This is totally not the case. I mean, objectively, it could be that you know, this guy is totally wrong for me. Like, we don't have things in common and there is not going to be that much connection. But then, there is also that like, psychological component you know, of me feeling insecure and wanting like, reaching out and wanting the affirmation or assurance or whatever from other people and not getting it. (therapist responds) [00:04:28]

(pause) I'm trying to let go inside and like, be more internal and be like, "Why am I feeling this way? What's..." You know, I should fix this within myself. And I try (chuckles); but then again like, "I miss that guy! Why isn't he calling?" (chuckles) I guess it's a constant struggle. It's not really anything new. Everyone goes through it, I guess. (chuckles) (pause) I guess I'm going to try and ask him, "Why don't you call?" (chuckles)

[pause 00:05:25 to 00:06:21]

I guess I was also thinking about... like... you were saying, you know, the beyond innocence or after the loss of innocence, it doesn't all have to be like crassness. Maybe there is magic and meaning. I was wondering what kinds of meanings there are. I feel like there are those like, like I feel like I'm on the same level with this guy, just because you know, he's not an intellectual and because I don't really... I guess it's a new thing and so, I've not really missed him that much, so maybe that's another reason, but whatever. Like, being on the same level kind of, I've noticed that I don't like... I hope this is a true (chuckles) statement but like, I don't constantly seek his approval, which you know, is what I was doing with Chris like, for seven years, (chuckles) it feels like, you know? Just because he was an intellectual and I wanted to become one. [00:07:39]

I don't know. I feel like that's a new thing. I hope it is, I am right that it's there and that I'm able to progress in that direction and not... Because I think it was completely like, crushing me, like the constant (sighs) looking out and seeking of, you know, approval (not just from Chris, but his friends and like, that whole community). Maybe it has come from trying to like, focus on my work and like, doing that instead of thinking about, I don't know, what other people think. (chuckles) I don't know. I mean, I feel like that's such a trap and I could fall back in at any time. I don't know, I'm trying to be, trying to watch out not to do that.

[pause 00:08:45 to 00:09:36]

Like, I don't know. I feel like sometimes I'm like, "So, I shouldn't be with someone like Chris, who is much smarter, because then I'll fall back into that thing of comparing and like, seeking approval." But then, I wonder if that's not really, I don't need to be that careful like, I could be strong one day or stronger, even stronger and be, and have a relationship with someone who is smarter, because... You know, by then, I might realize that, you know, I only seek approval when I feel small and when I feel like someone else is crushing me. So, if I don't feel that way, if I don't feel small, then I can be in a relationship with someone smarter. (chuckles) You know? I don't know. (chuckles) [00:10:36]

THERAPIST: What's the "I don't know" at the end?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. (chuckles) Just talking...

[pause 00:10:51 to 00:11:20]

THERAPIST: Are you feeling uncertain about what you're saying?

CLIENT: Uh... yeah, I guess I am. I don't know! (chuckles) (pause) Just feeling a little insecure (chuckles) in the past few days; I don't know. Kind of need to understand. (sighs)

[pause 00:12:15 to 00:13:48]

I just wonder if I'll ever resolve my... feelings for Chris, if I'll be able to say a final goodbye romantically or like, you know, finally commit to him. (chuckles) (therapist responds) I don't know, I don't know, I just don't know. Every time like, I'm... not every time like... Sometimes when I'm with him, it's like I get a clear voice in my head like, "I want something else!" You know, I want something, yeah. (chuckles) So... [00:14:34]

Then when I am with that something else, it's like, I feel guilty about Chris or like I worry about him and... Or you know, if that something else does (chuckles) something that I don't like, and I think, "Oh, Chris wouldn't do that! Chris would care about me! Chris would listen or, you know, Chris would be there for me." (chuckles) It's typical, you know. Happens with every girl (chuckles) actually, I think, at some point. (pause) Then, I guess, you just learn to live without... something. I guess it's, you never can live without like, care and love. I guess you can live without excitement. (therapist responds) So... [00:15:33]

But it's not even like excitement. Like, with Chris, it's like, it's like a... I try and resist him so hard, you know? Like, not just like sexually, but also like... personality-wise. It's like, always (I think I've talked about it), it's always like... you know, "You do this, you know, you live your life, but my sphere..." You know, I want to guard it, and do it my way, and not have him dictate and (sighs), you know. (pause) And, you know, not, him not being too vocal with... his emotions (chuckles).

[pause 00:16:36 to 00:17:44]

I guess in a way like, I have also resisted his, you know, love and concern, because of, I guess, bitterness and stuff I did actually push it away (chuckles). So... he is so like, stuck in this mold of "He is this one way, he cannot be any other way, or I cannot see him being all these other things," you know?

[pause 00:18:13 to 00:20:05]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: I don't know. Am I thinking? (chuckles) Just kind of spaced out. (sighs) (pause) I guess about categories and why sometimes my categories are so strict, you know, like you've mentioned before. Um... (chuckles) (pause) Maybe it's because like, I only see things moment to moment or, in the past, I did. Like maybe I didn't have a sense of like, the largeness of time and didn't have the patience to see that and realize that, it's like the long road and people change and you know... You lose them, but then you meet them again or, you know, in different shape and form, (therapist responds) and there are all kinds of possibilities of growth and stuff. [00:21:31]

Yeah. I think that was a giant part of how I would think like, "This moment, you know, this is permanence. This is how it's always going to be." (chuckles) (therapist responds). And it's not at all. You know like, I feel so stuck, no matter what you're doing. You know like, if you're eating lunch at boring place or you know, just eating lunch with a friend and you're like, "That's, this is it? This is how we're going to meet." You know and then, when they're done, they've somehow done this and it's like... But then years later, you know, things have changed and you're at a different place, they're at a different place, and you know that lunch can still happen, but it's like, so much change has happened. (therapist responds) I guess, being aware of change is something that I didn't know, I wasn't aware of and now I feel like I am. [00:22:54]

THERAPIST: I feel like sometimes when I'm quiet during sessions, or at least the beginning part of sessions, that you tend to kind of draw inward more. (client affirms and chuckles) Do you think so?

CLIENT: I guess, yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm wondering what to make of that.

CLIENT: Drawing inward as opposed to...? I mean like, being more quiet?

THERAPIST: Yeah, like when you sense that I'm, you know, more quiet, that somehow, you kind of pull in more.

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess, not always, but just today, I feel like it, but I'm trying to fight it, I'm trying to come out. (chuckles) (sighs) [00:23:55]

THERAPIST: What is it that you have to fight?

CLIENT: Just fight, yeah, whatever I'm fighting. Just the sense of feeling bad and low, I guess. (chuckles) I'm trying to fight it. (pause) Like you know, things are kind of ending. I'm sad a little, but I guess I'm telling myself, "They're not ending! They're just pausing. I'll see this person again, I'll see that person again. I'll have, you know, the workshop thing again. I'll have it and you know like, it's just a temporary hiatus and you know, during this hiatus I have a plan," you know? If I don't like the plan, I can make another plan! (chuckles) You know, and there'll be, yeah, there'll be hangouts and there'll be... It's so weird (chuckles) like, I went to a dance party last night and it was like, sometimes these things just like, don't have any effect (chuckles). [00:25:21]

THERAPIST: What do you mean, "no effect"?

CLIENT: Well, you know like for me, I love to dance and like, I've never really gone to a dance party before (chuckles). I've been like, all my life, "That's what I want!" This was like, you know, the... It was like, tailor-made for me, because it was like, you know, a writers' dance party. Everyone was... Then when I do go sometimes or, you know, once or twice to a bar, where there is supposed to be dancing, no one is dancing. Here everyone was dancing for hours, and the music was great, and I was dancing with friends. So it's like, you know, God gave me (or you know, whoever, whatever, you know), I had this, you know, perfect thing that I've always wanted and it still like, "Oh, yes..." (chuckles). [00:26:15]

I'm like embarrassed or shy or like, "Oh, why did I do this? Why did I make that face? Why was I dancing? Why did I post this silly photo on (chuckles) Facebook?" So, I've been like, really embarrassed this morning, thinking about, "Why did I let myself go?" (chuckles) So I guess that's why I'm being inward, I'm feeling like... more reason to be, you know? (chuckles) (sighs) I just feel very conscious sometimes. (pause) Sometimes I feel conscious after the fact (chuckles). So...

THERAPIST: I would say especially.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like (therapist starts, stops) no, it's like, why is there a reason to be conscious? (chuckles) What were you saying? [00:27:23]

THERAPIST: Well, I was sort of going to ask along those lines like, what do you think people are seeing?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, they were all having fun, too. And I just, I was having fun, too. So like, I didn't really do anything embarrassing, so...

[pause 00:27:41 to 00:28:10]

I guess I don't want to be seen as a party girl, but (chuckles) then it's like, it's the first time, you know? Like, how does that make me a party girl, you know? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What does a party girl mean?

CLIENT: I don't know, like taking drunk photos (chuckles) of someone and putting them on Facebook. But you know like, I wanted to take photos of these guys and like, you know, it's not going to happen again, so... (chuckles) It's a once in a lifetime thing, so I should like, allow myself to have that experience and not be embarrassed by it (chuckles), you know? It's like, what's wrong with me? Some people have only those photos and yet you feel, you don't think that they are party people at all. It's just, I think, "Oh yeah, they've had fun! They've led a good life." I don't think of them and (makes sound of dismissal), but I think of myself as that. (chuckles) (therapist responds) I don't know why. [00:29:19]

I wonder what image I have of (chuckles) myself. People know like, they know that I am serious and like... you know, I can work hard and you know, I can be smart. (chuckles) But it's still like, like these two photos and I'm like... "I don't do that!" (chuckles) So every time you do something new or something out of the ordinary, it's like, it's a cause for, not just you know, pause and reflection but, in my case like, (chuckles) embarrassment. You know, a small freak-out or, yeah.

[pause 00:30:12 to 00:30:37]

Maybe that's what it is like, I am so... I mean, I want to have new experiences, but then I'm also afraid of them, and afraid how they're going to change me, and if I'm going to be able to reconcile that change, or manage that change, you know? (therapist responds) (chuckles) (pause) Like, maybe I think, "Do I have the resources to like, deal with whatever, you know, this change brings, you know, the good and the bad?"

(pause) (chuckles) Like, even living with this new guy. I'm like, okay so I'm, you know, starting to go out with this new person who is, you know, very different from Chris. You know like, all you know like, not all, but you know, excitement and shopping and (chuckles) like superficial stuff. Do I have the resources to deal with that sort of a person, you know, who doesn't call and doesn't (sighs) show as much concern and care as Chris does, but then, who provides me with something that I feel like I really want, you know? At this point in my life. [00:32:11]

THERAPIST: What is that look? You're looking at me in a particular way.

CLIENT: Oh, am I? (therapist affirms) No, nothing has changed. See you.

THERAPIST: You're trying to see me? (client affirms) Am I blurry?

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Huh!

CLIENT: Well, no, I was just looking out and the window is too bright and like, now I can't see you. (chuckles) Like, it's taken me like, a lot of like, and I still haven't been able to reconcile this like, the fact that you know, I need physical intimacy of the kind that I enjoy like... I'm still like, weirded out by that, you know? The fact that I'm seeking it and, you know, outside of Chris, you know. (therapist responds) We've broken up and not really have come to terms with that, because (chuckles) we're still like, you know, seeing each other and hanging out and stuff. (therapist responds) I don't know. (inaudible) that's the big narrative. (therapist responds)

[pause 00:33:25 to 00:33:47]

THERAPIST: I had a couple of different thoughts. The one thought I had about like, sort of looking toward me, withdrawing, maybe I look blurry is sort of like this reaching out and wanting something to hold on to. (client affirms) And I'm sure if it's there, if you can even see it?

CLIENT: Oh, I see it. I mean, I know I've been doing, I've been seeing you for a year and a half and it's, I'm still that way (chuckles). So maybe it's not going to change or go away or maybe it will eventually, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm sorry; I'm trying to process what you said. So you're thinking that... Yeah, how did, I'm not sure how you took my comment. Like, did you find that I was sort of pointing out something wrong? [00:34:36]

CLIENT: No, I'm just saying that you're pointing out a behavioral, you know, aspect. I feel like I'm thinking, "Maybe this is the way I am, just like needier than other people or like I'll always have this," yeah. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (affirms) I certainly wasn't thinking that.

CLIENT: Oh. What were you (chuckles) thinking?

THERAPIST: I was thinking that it sort of speaks to all the things that you're talking about, in terms of your emotional state, and trying to figure out how much you should or could rely on other people, how much should you expect from other people, how much you should expect from yourself. (client affirms) I was thinking about that. And I wasn't even, when I made that comment, I wasn't thinking about what it means; I was just sort of commenting, sort of observing something.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. (chuckles) Yeah, that's more useful, I guess. (pause) What was your second thought? [00:35:48]

THERAPIST: It was more about the content of what you were saying, but I'm more focused on this now.

CLIENT: Oh. (pause) No, I'm interested in hearing it. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, my second thought was just like, sort of the different categories and thinking about how different they are. I can either have someone who I really want, and is sort of sexually very interesting, but he won't call and he won't do this like... (client affirms) Like I can have this or I can have this. (client chuckles) Like they're very separate (client affirms) and they're not only separate, they're, it seems like they're mutually exclusive, like you can have this, or you can have this. [00:36:34]

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) I'm trying not to think that way, I'm trying to be like, okay, the, you know, interesting person to be, to care more. And I, last week... Do we have time? (therapist affirms) Yeah, I mean, last week, he was like, crying. (chuckles) I was totally shocked like...

THERAPIST: What was he crying about?

CLIENT: I don't know, because I found out he was seeing, like dating other women. He said, you know, his parents made him do that. I don't know how much of that is true, but I was just like, you know like, I met him at a bar. I was like, you know, "This is not working out. Let's end it." He was like, "No, let's give it another shot." Then you know like, I had a little too much to drink and then afterwards, he was like, I was telling him, "I'm not, you know, good enough for you. You should find someone else." Then he just started crying. (chuckles) He was like, "I wish you could see yourself from my eyes. You're so much better off than what you think you are." He was just crying. I was just like, "Wow. Where did that come from?" (therapist responds) But then, you know, like the next day, he was superficial again (chuckles), so it's like... "You know, you open up and it's like, the window is like, shut again. [00:37:58]

THERAPIST: What makes you say, what did you say, "You can do better than me"? (client affirms) Why did you say that?

CLIENT: Well, I just feel like that when I'm with... I say that to every guy (chuckles). Not every guy, you know, like I've said that to Chris a billion times. I don't know, just because I feel like I'm like, emotionally unstable and (sighs) you know like, my parents are divorced so that, you know, to some people, it may matter, who are more traditional or whose parents are more traditional. But I don't quite know what I'm doing with my life and (chuckles). Whereas other people again, going the more traditional route, have, you know, sensible degrees and sensible jobs, so... [00:38:50]

(pause) So yeah, I mean, I see the, when both people can be both things. How do I go about thinking that way like, how do, I mean, not that... (chuckles) I mean, it's not about like, deciding between the two, but it's like the larger problem of me just thinking in mutually exclusive terms like, of always having dichotomies and binaries. (therapist responds) How do I get rid of that (chuckles) mode of thinking?

THERAPIST: Well, you believe it. [00:39:45]

CLIENT: Yeah. Which is funny, because like, I am, I think I'm a complex person and I complicate things, and you know. This is such a simple way of thinking, right? (therapist responds) (chuckles) And as an aspiring writer, I see all the complications and, yeah. It's weird. (chuckles) (pause) Why doesn't it stick? Why doesn't, yeah... That's the question, like why doesn't it stick, that this guy cried? Or why doesn't it stick that I've had good... satisfactory (chuckles) sexual experiences with Chris, you know? Why doesn't that stick? (chuckles) (pause) I think it doesn't stick because I'm like... I'm mad at them, or some other emotion overcomes, with my reason. Then I'm like, "Oh, yeah, the reason why I don't want to be with you is that you're not emotionally available and you, you're not exciting enough." (chuckles) (inaudible) That's wrong.

[pause 00:41:18 to 00:42:48]

THERAPIST: What are you thinking about?

CLIENT: I'm thinking if these guys think like that about me, that, "Oh, yeah. You can't do this whole entire thing," and how I would feel (chuckles), if they thought that way. I guess I would be mad and so... (pause) If they did think that way, I would think, "Oh, they just, they're looking for excuses to break up with me." (chuckles) So... Because I guess that's what I'm doing, so...

[pause 00:43:48 to 00:44:45]

Like, does it have to do with like... the way that you're taught about the world? Or is it about like, more like psychologically traumatic things that have happened? Like, you know, like say your dad saying, "Oh, you know, you're this, you're this, you'll always be this." And you're like, you're shattered when they say that, and the rest of your life, you're trying hard not to be this thing that they (chuckles) said you are, you know.

THERAPIST: Hmm. That's an interesting thought. We're going to, unfortunately, we're going to need to end on that, okay? (client affirms) I will see you on Monday. (client affirms) Great!

CLIENT: Have a good weekend!

THERAPIST: Thank you! You, too!

END TRANSCRIPT