TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in!

[pause 00:00:06 to 00:00:46]

CLIENT: I had a little bit of a weird night last night, so... I had to make amends or repairs (chuckles). (pause) I've been talking about it with friends, so I'm, I guess, trying to understand what exactly, why exactly I, you know, go back to feeling this way, but (chuckles) like... I was with my women's group gathering and it just wasn't going well in my head, I thought. I just kept feeling threatened and like, small and (chuckles)... So everything that was being said, I just took it the wrong way. You know, it was nothing out of the ordinary. People were just being the things that they always are, but... I just took things personally. Then I had like a little outburst, and then I just walked out. (chuckles) So now I feel very... apologetic, I guess? So, I'm really trying to call people or visit them and apologize. (chuckles) Or whatever. [00:02:11]

THERAPIST: What was the outburst?

CLIENT: Um... I don't know. People were just not stepping up and taking responsibility. There are two new people so like, I felt like, "Oh, great! Two more people who are talking and there will be even less time for me (chuckles), you know, to develop or showcase my talents and like, to you know like, form this group into what my vision is."

Then, just to like, grab onto something, I volunteered for a couple of things, but then like, the main lady (who is very nice), so she was like, "No, don't take on responsibility. I know you've got work to do. You know, we don't want to pressure you." But I didn't really... you know... take that. This new person was like, "Do you have school work?" And I was just like, so pissed! I was like, "Well, I don't go to a fancy school, but I do have work, yes." But then, I just got up and left. [00:03:33]

THERAPIST: Wait. I'm sorry. What did you say?

CLIENT: "I don't go to a fancy school, but I still, I do have schoolwork." So... I don't know. I was like... But I think like, the snide comment was directed to at least two other women who... I mean I like them perfectly. They've been kind to me, you know. This woman hosts the meeting at her place, and she always has food, and makes us tea and stuff, you know. I like her as a person, but then I also see that she is, you know like, she's critical and she can be a bully. Her sister can really be a bully. (chuckles) I feel that way. I see that, but then earlier I've had like, thick skin or like I haven't taken it personally, but last night, I did. [00:04:30]

(pause) And you know like, I keep seeing this objectively as, you know like, you know like, it's people like, it's people who talk the loudest about hierarchy and elitism who not so secretly wish to occupy like, the highest echelons of things, you know. Like, this woman is going to Harvard for her PhD, no matter how loudly she talks about hierarchy or elitism in academia. You know, "Academia is going to crap," you know. And like her own internal struggles with not becoming like that, you know? I see that, but I also see that, you know, she's at Harvard. (chuckles) You know, so it's like I, that's just what I encounter. Like, even at my school like, we talk about this, that, you know, "big success versus good work," you know. So... [00:05:40]

But yesterday, I just felt so threatened, and unsafe, and insecure that I just... I shouldn't really have been there. I should have just been like, "I'm not feeling good now. I shouldn't... you know, subject myself to this." Maybe it should be one of my goals to recognize this, that you know, at moments when I feel sapped for inner strength and peace (I know that I'm feeling vulnerable), I should avoid situations where I know there is going to be, you know... a meeting in a group and I know that certain personalities may rub me the wrong way. Is that right? I mean, should I (chuckles), should that be the goal, because like... instead of... I mean, I was trying to like, you know, calm myself, even in the meeting but... Like for like five minutes, I thought I was doing good. Then all of a sudden like, "Ahhh!" (chuckles) You know, just kind of exploded a little bit. [00:06:52]

THERAPIST: It sounded like you feel envious of her.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like... it's the same thing as with Chris (sp), you know? Like, it's exactly the same thing like, and I felt that way for years, you know, that the very, very safe and secure... path, you know, with a PhD, comparative to what I'm doing. You know like, you go into a program for five, six, seven years, and you get decent funding, and you have faculty by you, and this and that. But for me, it's a lot more independent. I mean, all the structures that I've built up and all the support groups that I've put in place, I've had to do all of that myself. There is no like, you know... If I just sit on my ass and let the school give me deadlines, you know, I'm not going to make much progress. So... Not that I'm... I guess I'm... Maybe I should say positive things to myself, because when I start saying the other things to myself, I get like, "You're being cocky," you know. [00:08:16]

But people, my friends tell me there is no danger of me ever being cocky. I'm like so, I have such low self-esteem that... I don't know, maybe you said it? I don't know, people have said it too, but... But I think like, all this was brought on by... I met my old friend from MSU She really just (and I'm recognizing this now), she really just saps me of all my strength. Like, all the stuff that I've built up since my breakdown in 2012, like it just like, falls to pieces. We hung out for quite a few hours, so I mean it's understandable, but... Like, just seeing her makes me so afraid. I don't know, it just depresses the hell out of me.

THERAPIST: Why? [00:09:11]

CLIENT: She is forty-something, she has nine-year-old twins, she and I were in the same program at MSU, gigantic dreams of making it as writers, you know, both of us had setbacks. And I'm, just because I'm slightly younger and don't have children, I feel like I'm somehow chugging along more than she is. Just her outlook is kind of negative and depressing. Just the way she dresses, the way she eats, the way she just like, left her kids at a bookstore for hours (chuckles) while we were walking around in the mall so she could talk to me, and the fact that...

THERAPIST: They're nine? [00:10:10]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) What do you mean?

THERAPIST: She left them alone?

CLIENT: Yeah. She said she does that. (chuckles) I don't know.

THERAPIST: That's pretty young.

CLIENT: Well, she left them for a year to come to MSU when they were four, so...

THERAPIST: But someone was watching them. Did they take care of themselves?

CLIENT: Oh, at the bookstore? (therapist affirms) No. They just sit and read. I mean I know I wouldn't, I don't know. Nine years, I don't know. But I feel like saying, "I wouldn't do that," but I just, to me... I mean, I see her perspective. That's my big fucking problem, because (chuckles) I sympathize, and I empathize, and I can see why she's doing what she's doing, you know. Like, I just feel like she's so desperate to talk to another person that, you know, that she would do that. And I'm not criticizing her, I'm just saying that I see that. I see why she did it, but I also see... as a woman or like a mother figure, I feel... I fear for the children, you know, a little bit! I feel sad about that. They're very, very like... they're very shy, they're very, they don't make eye contact, they don't smile, they're like, so inward. I was telling her, you know, "You should like, encourage them to learn an instrument, and play sports, and (chuckles)..." How would I know? I don't have kids! But... [00:11:48]

But you know like, I was telling her about my breakdown and like, my experience in India this summer and like, all that just brought up memories, too. Then I was telling her like, so this one, another friend of ours (another colleague from MSU), she just got, she just sold her book to a publisher. I was telling my friend about this last night, and she was like, "Yeah, I guess, you know, it's good..." I didn't like that she wasn't enthusiastic. You know, she said, "Yeah, I can think that I knew this artist once, and she wasn't even the best in the class." I mean, we all, I mean didn't remember that, but I don't think of her in that way anymore. Like, it's taken me a lot of... I guess I've grown a lot, or something, because I'm actually happy for her success. I never thought that I would be happy for anyone's success, especially in my cohort. [00:12:57]

When I was at MSU, I thought if someone else even gets a piece published before me, I would just die! And of course, (chuckles) that started happening. People started publishing before I could get anything published and like... Now, you know, her work is probably going to come out before mine; I don't know. But... That doesn't make me want to kill myself (chuckles) anymore, because I have a plan. I see that I've made progress, I'm making progress, and I have a support group (if I don't like, burn every single bridge!); but you know like, I feel like that's there, that's been put in place somehow and...

THERAPIST: So you're linking having you know, spending time with this friend to what happened last night? (client affirms) How so? [00:13:54]

CLIENT: I was just so depressed and sapped. I just looked at us as like two sad little women! You know, I felt sad for myself, because of my association with her. Then I went straight from there to that meeting and... I don't know if I totally understand everything, but... I just felt totally disconnected from all the women there. Maybe it's not related, it's not related, meeting this friend and then going to the meeting, it's not related; but I feel that it might be. You know, yeah.

THERAPIST: And it sounds like that you felt pathetic with her.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's the way that I feel pathetic of my emotions (ph) sometimes. [00:14:42]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

CLIENT: Like, you know, similar complaints: not dressing well, and not looking happy, being happy and positive. I don't know like, yeah, negative energy can really just like, make me negative and sap me (chuckles), I think.

THERAPIST: Then you say something that's quite aggressive to this woman.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: "Oh, maybe I don't go to a fancy school, but..." (client affirms) That's aggressive!

CLIENT: It's very aggressive! Passive aggressive, or just aggressive? But it's not passive (chuckles).

THERAPIST: It's in that passive aggressive (inaudible). [00:15:28]

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I'm going to try and call her and apologize. I already e-mailed and apologized, but she hasn't replied. But yeah, no like, I guess I just felt so disconnected from all the women there. You know, we were discussing ideas for something. Like, this woman and her sister were, they were going back and forth, and I was trying to get my voice in and my opinion in. It just felt like a fight, you know. I didn't want to do it.

THERAPIST: Did you, when you were thinking of saying that, did you at any point pause, or did it just come to your mind and you said it?

CLIENT: Yeah, I need that filter! It just like, it didn't, it was not functioning! (laughs) It wasn't there! I was ready to cry! (chuckles) Yeah. (pause) There was this thing about my mom. My mom was there, too. They're thinking of writing a children's book, and my mom has written stories and got them published. I really want to see her as taking ownership of this. She's was so quiet and so like, soft-spoken. [00:16:45]

THERAPIST: Your mom, you're talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah. But sometimes, she really can be very wise, if given the right opportunity and stuff. She was doing that, but then (this makes me so mad and I was going to call her a bitch, (chuckles) you know) like, this bully, she just kept like fucking knocking everything off. I just was so fucking pissed, I was just like... You know, artists need their own way of going about their work. You can't be telling them, you know? Like, okay it's fine, we can discuss ideology, and we can come here and do that. But there is no, you can't really dictate and tell them, "This is how you're going to fucking produce," you know? I just wanted to be like, I just wanted to like, get into a fight with her, but I couldn't, you know? (chuckles) [00:17:36]

(pause) And she's helped me out before; it's not like she's not nice, you know? Like, when I was in India and my mom had to move apartments, this woman, she moved the car and kept it in her garage for like, several weeks. So they're nice, but then they have this, I feel, bitchy/bullying personality. When I butt heads with them, I just totally feel... that I'm flat on my back, you know? Like, I'm not, I have no backbone or like, I cannot stand upright and fight back. (pause) Like, why don't I remember their niceties when I'm like, when I'm feeling that way? And why don't I remember that I have a backbone when I'm feeling that way? (chuckles) Why is it like, someone has pressed a button and like, there is no floor under me and I just like... fall. (chuckles) You know? [00:18:49]

THERAPIST: When you were spending time with your friend yesterday... Was it yesterday that you saw her? (client affirms) At any point, did you not want to be there?

CLIENT: Several times.

THERAPIST: What do you think keeps you there?

CLIENT: Sense of duty, I guess, sense of obligation and... I like her. We, you know like, she and I would talk for hours. (inaudible) I'd be, we would walk back home together and like, yeah. I guess something attracts me to her like... but I feel that it's kind of negative (chuckles).

THERAPIST: And so the points that you wanted to lead, what were those points? [00:19:46]

CLIENT: When she, you know like, kept eating and kept (chuckles) wanting to like, the need to finish like, the last grain of rice. You know like, you know and, when she was saying negative things and... You know, I don't hate her and I'm not embarrassed with her, but just like... I felt pathetic, but I felt you know like, "pathetisized," (chuckles) you know. That's when I wanted to leave.

THERAPIST: (pause) I mean, one of the things that you're describing about her is this sense of bitterness. (client affirms) Life has treated her badly (client affirms), sort of this bitter resentment. It's, and there is a piece of you that feels that way, too, that was expressed in the meeting. Like, "Well, maybe I don't go to a fancy school like you." This bitter resentment, like I so want to talk with you about it more (inaudible), because I think it's destructive to you. [00:21:02]

CLIENT: It is. It's the most destructive thing ever. I've fucking ruined so many relationships because of this. And not everyone is going to be kind, and they weren't kind. (chuckles) You know? And I don't want to lose any more friends, because I'm really trying to build a new life and... Yeah. (chuckles) So, yeah.

THERAPIST: And also, I mean, it prevents you from enjoying all the things you've accomplished, and all the talents and skills you have. You can't feel good about those things when you're feeling bitter.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) What am I bitter about like...? Yeah. Because I thought I was getting over my bitterness for Chris, at least, you know?

[pause 00:22:07 to 00:22:21]

Is it bitterness that, you know, makes me feel everyone else is, has their life figured out, and they're doing so well, and I'm not, and they're all smug, or they look smug to me, and I feel like a basket case or (chuckles) something. Is that bitterness or is that something else?

THERAPIST: Well, that certainly engenders bitterness, it could engender bitterness. (client affirms) Because it can engender envy, and envy can make you really bitter over time.

CLIENT: Yeah. And it's not that they don't appreciate me. Like, only the day before (chuckles), another, you know, gathering. This director had come and you know, he's won the national award for his film and like, we were all hanging out at this woman's place. You know like, they're all like, "Yeah, you know, Cecelia (ph) is such a great artist, and she's done this." [00:23:25]

So like, I get so much like, positivity from these same people (chuckles), you know? I just totally don't get that, at certain moments, why I just lash out at the same people, you know? I mean, I see they're, see that they're nice, see that they give me positive energy. But then, I find these little things that I find disagreeable, such as, you know, maybe their bullying daughter you know? Who also has been kind (chuckles), you know?

I just latch onto those moments and that's all I see, you know? (therapist responds) I don't understand that, and I just don't... I feel like I need to find a strategy of dealing with that, because, you know... (pause) Just because they kept talking doesn't mean that my mom is not going to be able to do what she wants to do, or that they're like specifically putting her down, you know? (pause) Why was I so hurt? Like, why was I so...? Yeah. (chuckles) Negative and angry. Do you think it's related like, seeing my friend earlier? [00:25:03]

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like you felt it was related. (client affirms) And I could see several ways in which it was related. I mean, because in addition to like, with your mom, in addition to sort of feeling brought down, you feel a certain resentment of being tied to her. I imagine that that was what it felt like with your friend, on some level (client affirms), that you were sort of dragged down. (pause) And stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's why I don't want to see her, because I felt stuck (chuckles). I hate being stuck, because I've been stuck for years, I feel like, in thinking and in other ways. (pause) But I also don't want to be a person who forgets, you know, and just moves on and stops seeing people. I mean, I was the one who suggested seeing her. I needed something from her, so I thought... But then, I also thought it would be nice to catch up like, genuinely not just like, "Oh, you're doing something for me, so I'll, I guess I'll see you." Because if that was the case, I would have just kept it short and sweet. But you know, we hung out for like, three hours (chuckles), you know? [00:26:46]

I mean, I want to do nice things for people and... You know, I want to be this person who encourages people and... but I feel like... and I spotted something, a potential for doing that in another friend. And I feel like maybe I will be able to do that with her, because she's not as bitter and negative as my, as this other friend (I feel like, has been for a long time).

(pause) I don't know, I was talking about this with, you know, this guy I'm seeing. He was like, "You know, you can't be (chuckles), you can't strengthen other people if you don't have strength of your own. So you should be selfish and work on yourself. You know, focus on your book and all that. " (pause) (sighs) I don't know. I just, I wish that... I guess in terms of prioritizing what my needs are, I feel like it's up there to develop that filter that makes me not say bitter things (chuckles), you know, when I'm really angry. But I'm also hoping that they'll be forgiving and they'll let me off the hook this time (chuckles). [00:28:20]

THERAPIST: Well, I hope so, too. But I feel like I'm less focused on that.

CLIENT: Yeah, why?

THERAPIST: Because it's about where these feelings are coming from. If you say something that's potentially destructive, it ends up not being so great, but (chuckles)... (client affirms) And destructive by definition is the opposite of creative (client affirms) and so, you know, you, it's like, here is someone who wants to create and loves to create... (client affirms)

[pause 00:28:59 to 00:29:12]

CLIENT: How do I develop, how, what do I do like, do I focus on things that make me feel big, you know? (chuckles) And strong and like, every time I feel small in a situation, should I pause and actively think, instead of just like, you know, letting it wash all over me, and feel smaller and smaller and smaller?

THERAPIST: Do you think that would help?

CLIENT: I'm just... wondering (therapist responds) what my strategy should be (chuckles).

THERAPIST: Well, hopefully, we'll continue to work on the feelings and where, you know, and having you feel differently. (client affirms) But it's a good question, well, what do you do in the moment? (client affirms) How do you negotiate that within yourself in the moment? It's a very good question. [00:30:14]

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I feel like I don't do anything about it like, I just let it wash all over me. Then I, then like a few minutes later, an hour later, it's like, "Wow, I'm down in the dumps! How did I get here, you know?" So... I mean, that's what that guy was saying, that you should question why do you even go to these meetings, because you know, you get so affected by them that your whole day is ruined, you know. So... (pause) And I guess that's what you're saying, that it's destructive and... Yeah, so... (pause) (sighs) It's just like, Poof! Everything just flies away like, all the little structures that I build and...

[pause 00:31:38 to 00:32:07]

And it's not like I only feel negative things from and about my mom. Like, the moment I walked out of the meeting, she also followed me, and she, you know, was encouraging me. She was, you know like, talking bad about the women to make me feel good (chuckles), which you know, I guess you can, you know, I don't know what you think about that. Like, does that encourage bitterness? (chuckles) You know, I feel like maybe it does. But then, you know like, it has also kind of like, "Yeah, you were right there, you know like, these women were being bullies." But I don't know.

So, it felt like, I felt a little better, hanging out with her afterwards. Because I could see her like, she didn't take things as personally as I did. She's not all like, threatened and like, like I was, "Oh, you want to take this away from me, you know? Like, this is the littlest I can do and now you're taking that away from me." That's what I kept thinking, like when they were talking about like, sharing ideas about the children's book. I was like, "This is a tiny little thing that my mom could potentially do and be good at. You're just going to take that away from her." (chuckles) I felt like, guarding that as like a guarding a territory and them, you know like, trampling on it. I said, "There are too many cooks in the kitchen here!" I don't know why I felt that way, but I did. [00:33:55]

(pause) It's very hard to be public when I feel so low, you know? And it's funny, because I have these phases. Since last year, since like, my breakdown and I've been trying to get up, I've done, invested a lot of time in making new friends and like, exploring completely new territories and like, even so, going so far (chuckles) as to like, having kind of a relationship with a new guy, you know. He's like, from like, there is absolutely no meeting ground, except for maybe, you know, one girl. Like, that's how I met him, I guess you know, we had a mutual friend, but other than her, absolutely nothing in common, you know? So I guess I'm just seeing that as like, me trying to really reach out and have friends instead of being by myself. [00:35:05]

(pause) But it scares me, because I know that I have this dark side, or this lack of filter, and I'll say something very bitter. Even before that happens, the feeling of, you know, feeling small. It's there, like all the ingredients are there, and I tell myself, "Look, you potentially could like, fall again," because you know like, this guy, he makes a lot of money. I feel like it's a lot of money and like, you know like, I could totally feel very, very subordinate and very small if I think about it too much (chuckles). It's like, I, it's because I constantly am like, presenting myself as someone very cultured, and well read, and someone with dreams and hopes, and who can hold my own, and has opinions, and has tastes. I feel like that's what's keeping me upright next to him, you know? (therapist responds) [00:36:22]

But I feel like, you know, it could all go away. And suddenly, all these people, they become these (chuckles) monsters that I... feel like I have to fear and like, avoid instead of... And you know, people I could say nasty things to and then, you know, get into trouble with. Instead of people who could, you know, build me up or (sighs) you know, who I could hang out with and have a good time with and...

[pause 00:37:00 to 00:37:22]

I also like, I guess when I'm feeling that way, I also feel that people don't like me. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, it's confusing, because you also don't feel like you like them, at the moment, at those moments.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) And it's like, there is all this evidence to think otherwise. It's like, "Really?" But it just flies off to somewhere else, you know?

[pause 00:37:57 to 00:39:37]

Yeah, I guess when I was walking with my friend in the mall, I really just felt like... we were back in MSU, and it was like, a really negative time where, even if it wasn't a negative time, the years afterwards made me think of that as a negative time. I just felt like I had nothing all over again, and I had made absolutely no progress in my work. You know, I was poor and I was, you know, all those things that I thought I was working towards conquering, you know? (pause) Like, and especially like, materially, I felt kind of low, between you know like, "All these things that we eat together I cannot buy, because we're poor, you know." Like, she, her husband sends her money, but... Or no, her husband doesn't send her money. Like, she says they just share a credit card and... (sighs)

[pause 00:40:50 to 00:41:10]

I don't know. Is there like a clear understanding, do you think, of why I felt small yesterday? Like, could I say that with confidence, it was meeting her that caused it, or...?

THERAPIST: Well, I don't think it caused it, but it, it awoke something in you.

CLIENT: Well, what caused it, then? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: All these feelings you have about yourself.

CLIENT: So they just like, lie dormant. Then something just triggers them, and then they just take over?

THERAPIST: But they're not always that dormant.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah. Will I ever be rid of them, do you think? Or like... will I just be aware of them, and keep them, and be...

THERAPIST: It's a really interesting question. I think somewhere in the middle of that, or... I think that they can lessen (client affirms) greatly. Do you ever get rid of them? Probably not. (client affirms) But do they impact you in the way they're impacting you now? I think there is a lot that can be done in that respect, that already has a lot been done, a lot. (client responds) [00:42:20]

(pause) I mean, it's complicated, because in a sense, as I think problematic and potentially destructive as those feelings are, they are a way in which you connect with your mother. (client responds) And you feel connected to her. (client affirms) It's like your joint narrative together, and being these twins, with this particular kind of fate. (client responds) It's a very unfortunate fate (client chuckles), the unfortunates.

CLIENT: Yeah. You mean the, the narrative of being poor or like, not having stuff or like, being victims? (therapist affirms) Yeah. [00:43:24]

THERAPIST: Almost like being passed over in life. (client affirms) You thought that... What this triggered for me is when you went to go visit your mother in the supermarket, where she was working. The same sort of experience.

CLIENT: As visiting my friend?

THERAPIST: It sounds like it, yeah. Like, "Oh, we're just kind of two pathetic people together (client affirms), living a life of sort of hardship and pathetic-ness."

CLIENT: (chuckles) I like to think that. I mean, that's why I don't see my mom, I avoid her. I don't go to her place, I, you know, have her come over other places. (pause) I try to see agency, but it doesn't... work. (pause) I keep wondering how to help her get a better job... Not too much, but you know, sometimes I wonder (chuckles).

THERAPIST: Well, Cecelia, we need to stop for today, okay? I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay, yeah. Thank you!

THERAPIST: Take care!

CLIENT: Thanks.

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