TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi! Come on in! [00:01:16]

CLIENT: (pause) (chuckles) (pause) And so I apologized to like, the women in my group that I, you know, from Sunday. (therapist responds) I barged out on them (chuckles), and I heard back from everyone I, you know, (inaudible) a call. So like, I’m... (sighs) feeling very grateful (chuckles) that they’re, I don’t know, you know, just anybody didn’t take it as personally. And I feel lucky that, you know, that they didn’t kick me to the curb (chuckles), like some people.

[pause 00:02:58 to 00:04:18]

I was thinking about... (sighs) what you said that, um, that narrative of lack or maybe the victim, and if there is a way that I connect to my mom. (therapist responds) I mean, I’m aware of that. I guess I was, not as aware of it as I am now. You know, it was more subconscious to like, assume that sort of a person to be, you know, to identify with her, to understand her, you know. Just to know, I mean, you know, acknowledge that I know where she comes from. Here it’s like, that’s the same place I come from. You know, so like, those are my roots, sort of... you know.

So... but then I guess like, at some point, instead of them just being roots, that whole narrative just became a whole tree, you know? (chuckles) (therapist responds) And the whole tree was sprouting dead things, instead of you know like, healthy, green leaves. (chuckles) You know, that would be constructive and you know. A dead tree would be... destructive (chuckles), I guess. So... [00:05:52]

I mean, I guess, you know like, that narrative of lack could produce stories, could produce art, but it has to be kind of channeled. It can’t, you know, just overtake the psyche, I guess. And that’s what I’m realizing, because if I believe I can’t do anything, then (chuckles) obviously, I won’t be able to produce art, you know, or be creative, or, you know...

(pause) I guess I always thought, in one sense I thought or felt that (sighs) I can’t like, if I just pretend to understand her, that’s just being... shallow, you know? And I have a, I used to have a great big thing against shallowness. It turned me off and I would judge people who were shallow. But then like, I guess lately, I’ve been thinking, “There are nothing wrong with me being (chuckles) shallow,” because you know, that’s not just a defense mechanism. It’s you know, it’s how most people survive, you know? It’s how, you know, it’s a way of being happy or dealing with things, because otherwise it would just be too much, that thing, so you know... If you just too deep all the time, you won’t get anything done, maybe! (chuckles) You know? So... [00:07:23]

(pause) So, I mean, yeah. That was how I would think that... I should do a thorough job of identifying with my mom and like, really just internalizing all (inaudible) and the sadness and like... Then, at some point, it really became like... (pause) you know like... Yeah, destructive, you know.

[pause 00:08:10 to 00:08:33]

I mean, I want her to feel uplifted, and I want her to feel capable, and she has and, you know, she can. So I just thought, even, you know, throughout my childhood, all she felt was victimized and depleted, you know. But I, I do, I mean, I’m really hating that whole scenario. I mean, at first, I was in love with it, but now I’m like, starting to hate it, which I think is good (chuckles) progress. Or that whole thing about, you know, she and I, you know, the way that I felt Sunday, at the meeting. She and I sitting, and like, I just felt like life passing us by (therapist responds), you know? Like, everyone, you know, resilient, and full of ideas, and positive, and confident, and having everything, and taking things lightly, and winning; and the two of us just always, always losing, you know. It’s like we’re at a fair, and no matter how many games we play, how many times we play it, we never get the prize. (chuckles) And everyone else does, and they’re eating cotton candy and they’re happy. (chuckles) You know? [00:09:58]

I feel, I felt that way for a long time. It’s made me very... I mean, there is power in it, but then there is also a lot of powerlessness and... and, I mean, as I was describing it, I was loving the image. But now I’m like, “No, don’t love it! (chuckles) You don’t want to be all cooped up, you know, and just like in a pod with your mom. That will destroy you. (chuckles) You know, you want to be... in the fair and off it, as well, you know? You want to win and you want to be interacting with people, and liking them, and welcoming them and... You know, you’ve stuff to give (chuckles).” [00:10:50]

(pause) So... I want to fight it, focus, I’ll try to change that outlook a little bit, somehow.

[pause 00:11:14 to 00:14:15]

I mean, right now, I guess I avoid my mom a little bit, or a lot (chuckles). I mean, I do want to see her differently, I guess. I don’t know. I guess I’m waiting for my own perception to change and, you know like, for us not to, every time we get together, be like, “Hey, we’re two victims together,” you know. I want there to be like a healthy... kind of like, bond between us. And there can be, it’s just I don’t understand what kind of a dynamic could bring that about, you know? Just waiting. (chuckles) I don’t know. [00:15:15]

It’s like, you know, it’s like poisoned waters. I’m just wondering like, will they always remain poisoned or like, I treat the water somehow, you know like, it will be... you know, become clean again or like (sighs) yeah, drinkable, even. (chuckles) Yeah, what will change our dynamic, you know? Like, what external factor? Yeah.

THERAPIST: How you feel about her and yourself will change the dynamic.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: How you feel about yourself and how you feel about her would change the dynamic.

CLIENT: Yeah. Hmm. So it’s not anything external? [00:16:17]

THERAPIST: No. I don’t think she’s going to change much. She is who she is, she’s pretty predictable.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah.

THERAPIST: But... I’m sorry, go ahead.

CLIENT: No like, I meant like, you know like, change in our financial situation might. It’ll make me feel differently, maybe.

THERAPIST: Change in what way?

CLIENT: Maybe when she finds, if she finds a job or, you know like, once my program is done, you know, something happens for me or like, you know, find a job or (chuckles) something.

THERAPIST: I think that that’s actually an extension of your current dynamic, which is that what controls your relationship is your fate, whether things turn out good in life or bad in life, that your fate or lack, or your luck or lack thereof is what shapes your relationship. But I think that that’s the dynamic.

CLIENT: (responds) (pause) Yeah, I’m trying to feel differently about myself. [00:17:26]

THERAPIST: It wasn’t a criticism.

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: I said it wasn’t a criticism.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I am just trying to understand like, because I mean, you’ve said this very pointedly, so I wonder like, am I making progress in these areas? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I think you are. I mean, you see... and how you see yourself and how you see your mother are so intertwined, right? (client responds) But, you know, to the extent that you see your mom as sort of a, you know, kind of pathetic person with, you know, kind of a low status in life, who has no options, very much shapes the way you see her and how you relate. The two, how two people relate to each other, and also in very practical senses, versus a woman who does, who had extremely bad luck early in life and had a lot of constraints put on her, but that now has options and makes some choices and not others. [00:18:23]

CLIENT: Hmm. (blows nose) I need that (ph).

THERAPIST: You tend to see her as controlled entirely by her fate, you know. Your mother is the type of person who must work in a grocery store; that is her fate. We are a lowly people, with a lowly status. (client chuckles) Versus like, substitute teaching is hard. I’d rather work in a grocery store. It’s easy!

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I see that sometimes. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I know you do.

CLIENT: On sunny days (chuckles).

THERAPIST: I know you do.

CLIENT: But I guess myself, do I see myself also as like, a victim of fate or...?

THERAPIST: Sometimes, yeah.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Like in the summer, with that creepy guy. (client responds) You were of a low status, and you need to sort of grovel for people of a higher status’ goodwill. [00:19:34]

CLIENT: Yeah. But that was his narrative he was pushing on me, right?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: His narrative is irrelevant.

CLIENT: (inaudible) (chuckles) [00:19:53]

THERAPIST: That’s your narrative.

CLIENT: No!

THERAPIST: That’s your narrative. Your friend, who has all this wonderful family ties, and comes from a good family, and you come from no family... It’s your narrative.

CLIENT: Okay, so like, really? (chuckles) Am I like fighting it? I know it’s real, that it has been, and I can think that way. But then like, help me like, tell me like, how do I like, negotiate all these differences, like objective differences that are actually really there? Yeah.

THERAPIST: What, how do you mean, objective differences?

CLIENT: So like, I am, I love to go to Nepal, I want to go to Nepal. (therapist responds) When I get there, you know, it’s up to me to kind of make things happen like, in terms of where to live, you know. Like, I could be way more enterprising than I’ve been in the past, and I haven’t because, you know, it’s, I usually end up staying at, staying with Chris (sp). (therapist responds) Now that that, I want, if I want to change that, I have to make things happen like, call my husband’s (ph) and (inaudible) family, “Come and stay with us.” [00:21:15]

So, I mean, I could do that. But then this summer like, the way that it happened, you know like... I don’t think that narrative came into play, even as Chris was asking around like, “Hey, can Cecelia (sp) stay with you guys?” You know, this woman said, “Yes, you know, go and stay at my place in India.” So I go there and I don’t think I had that narrative in place when I went there. I mean, I... okay, maybe... I don’t know... I guess I felt obliged, you know, thankful and then maybe a little more than thankful. I felt obliged and I felt, “Oh, I’m taking this thing from them.”

But it’s not all me, is what I’m trying to say. I’m not just trying to like, defend myself to you, but more like... yeah, more like understand how much of it was coming from the outside, and how much of, I have changed my thinking to like... take care of myself, you know. Because it is a little bit cultural, but it’s also there that, this woman is like known for like... showing off that she’s helping you, you know. Like, she’s a big talker about, “Oh, I will do this for you, you know. I will make this happen for you.” She’s like, very into that like, she’s... And everyone knows her, knows about that side of her. (therapist responds) [00:22:56]

So I’m just saying like, that narrative was like, put into place for me, culturally and... because of their personality. So... I mean, my gut feeling was not to take any favors from her. This was a gigantic favor and just completely (inaudible). Wrong, because I had no idea like, her dad was a pervert (chuckles), you know?

THERAPIST: Maybe next time, you should go with your gut.

CLIENT: Yeah. So I’m just saying like, how much of it wasn’t my narrative slash (ph), how much of it was objective reality.

THERAPIST: But it’s not objective. It’s her narrative. And everyone, I mean you could find someone with a narrative for anything. When you take it on, that’s what’s important. I mean, I do appreciate that there is a cultural piece. I certainly don’t want to dismiss that. (client affirms) But, I mean, people have all sorts of narratives that (client affirms) you can buy into or think, “This is crazy!” (client affirms) So then she had it, that she had it doesn’t... I understand you’re not making it up, but that she had it. You understand that she has it for her own particular psychology and her own particular problems doesn’t, to me, seem therefore prove it’s an objective narrative. It’s her narrative, based on her own problems. [00:24:12]

CLIENT: No, I just, I guess objective, I meant like, the differences that, you know, me not having a place to stay and, you know, her having a place. (chuckles) That’s what I mean.

THERAPIST: I don’t have a place to stay in Nepal. (client laughs) People whose families come, you know, where almost the whole family comes over, they may not have a place to stay. (client affirms) It’s a practical issue. You’re making it into this sort of symbolic meaning of status and, you know, but it’s a practical issue at heart. (client affirms) If you come from a wildly affluent family, and they all come to the States or Europe or whatever, you may not have anywhere to stay!

CLIENT: I think of it as completely symbolic. I just can’t not!

THERAPIST: Well, right! That’s the point! You take it as completely symbolic. You do not see it as practical. And I imagine, you know, I guess if you come from this wildly wealthy family, you’ve got some fourth cousin who might want you to stay with them, that you didn’t know, but...

CLIENT: Yeah... Maybe it’s like that whole like, thing about Nepal. Like, I would feel, if I go to someplace else, I would totally feel neutral. But you know, that’s where, it’s like a big giant sore spot, still. Like, that whole story and that narrative of, “I came from here and I was kicked out of here” or like you know, “I had to move from here.” [00:25:44]

THERAPIST: How were you kicked out?

CLIENT: Oh, not kicked out; more like, dragged over from, by my dad (chuckles). (therapist responds) So... Like, yeah. Just... I’d like for that narrative to change, obviously, to feel more neutral about Nepal and (chuckles), I mean, at least, you know, the very practical drama of like, going back there, going there for summers and stuff (chuckles). (sighs)

THERAPIST: When you say kicked out, it’s almost like you were lower status citizens that weren’t allowed to stay. (client affirms) (pause) The country didn’t reject you. [00:26:42]

CLIENT: I think in those terms, surprise, surprise! (chuckles) Both Nepal and the U.S., I guess.

THERAPIST: But that has nothing to do with objective reality.

CLIENT: Yeah. I should remember that.

THERAPIST: People from all over the world, their parents decide to leave, come to the States, wherever, but the State, for various reasons; the country wasn’t kicking them out. Actually, some people, that’s true; the country does kick them out, but that wasn’t in your case.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) No, they didn’t. (chuckles) And neither has the U.S. kicked me out in any way. (chuckles) I’ve made friends in both places, and people have welcomed me in both places, and I’ve had bad experiences in both places, so... [00:27:48]

THERAPIST: And its universities have given you funding so they, because they want you to study at them.

CLIENT: Yeah! I can never forget that. I mean, that’s, it’s like a big welcome hug, you know? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: It is. It absolutely is.

CLIENT: A big embrace! Yeah. I mean, I definitely see that, so... I feel that way. I feel appreciated here (chuckles), more than in Nepal, actually (laughs). But then, it scares me, you know. I’m trying to be less scared about it. I should be like... earlier it would really freak me out, like people’s acceptance of me and their love. I guess, I would like, “What would I do with this? I’m totally going to let them down!” Like, with Chris’s parents like, being nice to me. I just totally feel awful, thinking about it. (chuckles) I mean our, it’s so awkward right now, but like, you know like, not being whatever, faithful to him, or not wanting to be with him in that way makes me feel... (chuckles) I should, obviously (inaudible). [00:29:24]

(pause) I guess I would love to be able to see my mom differently (sighs), and to relate to her differently. Most of the time, I just feel like it’s very stagnant, you know? There is nothing new there and it’s all the same muck. But, sometimes it is surprising when there is something new happening and... You know, it’s still the same in a sense, but it’s like, “Oh, she needs help. I have to help her.” You know, and then I feel burdened (therapist responds), so...

(pause) That’s why it’s like, it’s been such a gigantic relief that we’re part of like, this community now, and this women’s group, and there are like, something new to talk about (chuckle), you know? Like, “Are you going? Okay.” “No, I’m not going.” (ph) “What are you cooking?” And stuff, you know, “What are you wearing?” So that kind of is, is little, but it’s still, you know, it’s, feels big, you know. [00:31:00]

And I still don’t like the whole interaction between her and Chris and you know (chuckles) me wanting it. Like the other day, Monday, (inaudible) come over, I was at Chris’s place and like... I was trying to talk to Chris and like, she just kept interrupting like, every (chuckles) few seconds! We were just both like, “Will she shut up and go away?” I felt bad thinking that way, but I was like... (chuckles) you know.

(pause) I feel like... I don’t want to say this, because it’s premature and probably wrong, but I feel like I don’t want to blame Chris too much for the interaction between them. I do still want to blame him some, but like, I feel like, you know, maybe it was my fault, that it’s the way that I look at her, you know? I look down on her and don’t respect her, so how could I have expected my boyfriend to have respected her? [00:32:27]

But I don’t want to say that, because I feel like, you know like, “No! A completely different person would have interacted with her completely differently.” Like this one guy I used to be friends with in high school, he had like a giant crush on me and stuff, but we met or came back in touch. We lost touch when I moved to the U.S., but then several years later, we got back in touch and we were friends again. Like, he would just like call my mom, at random like, just talk to her and... (chuckles) So, you know, someone like him would have a healthy interaction with her. So it’s not all my fault! (chuckles) But it does make me feel like I could change it, although I don’t know. I’m really not sure about how much I could change, because they don’t have a good... rapport at all.

[pause 00:33:27 to 00:33:53]]

I mean, I’m trying to build a new narrative like, with this new guy. At first, I would tell him that, “Yeah, my mom goes to this really fancy gym.” I mean, it’s not a lie, I mean, I wasn’t lying like...

THERAPIST: Does your mom go to a fancy gym? (client affirms) Where does she go?

CLIENT: (laughing) I’m not going to tell you. You’re going to judge her! (laughs)

THERAPIST: How... How would I judge her?

CLIENT: Well, you know, well, I’m just saying. Yeah, she goes to a nice gym, and that’s like her one nice thing she does for herself, because everyone knows her and like everyone is her age there. So...

THERAPIST: Well, how would I judge her? I’m not sure I understand.

CLIENT: (chuckles) I was kidding. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, you had something in mind. [00:34:39]

CLIENT: No, you’d say or like, “And she expects you to pay for, pay her rent,” and all that. I didn’t pay her rent this month, actually. So... But (sighs), I don’t know. So anyway, so yeah. Yeah, so I’m building this narrative. Um, and like, with this new guy that “Yeah, you know, she’s a princess, she’s spoiled, she goes to a fancy gym, and you know, she...” What else? “She’s getting a Masters and like, she has particular tastes about this and that.”

So like, in his head, I think, I’m not sure, but I think I’ve built her up as this, you know like, cultured woman who is, you know like, has led a good life. (chuckles) But then, you know like, at certain times, I’ve also like, told him that, “Oh, God, I can’t... I don’t have a good relationship with my mom and you know like... you know like, I avoid her and stuff,” and so... (pause) I guess I’m just trying to see that, you know, I do want to change. I do want a fresh start with her, so... [00:36:02]

THERAPIST: Well, her being spoiled is a very different kind of narrative.

CLIENT: Exactly! It’s the opposite of a victim. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, why that narrative?

CLIENT: I am so desperately wanting something new like, a new dynamic, a new way of seeing her than the yucky way that I was seeing her.

THERAPIST: And why would I, well, why would I judge her, or what would the point of me judging her be? I don’t understand.

CLIENT: Oh. (pause) I don’t know. I guess... you would take away that narrative that I’m building, that she’s spoiled and... (pause) What? (chuckles) [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: That that... Well, you said the fancy, you wouldn’t tell me what the fancy gym was. (client affirms) So, it wasn’t about the narrative being spoiled. You didn’t like something else.

CLIENT: Oh. I don’t know. Hmm. It happened too quickly (chuckles)! I can’t remember now.

THERAPIST: You got very protective like, “Oh, I don’t want to tell you what gym she’s a member of.”

CLIENT: Oh! No, I mean, it’s not, I don’t have, I’m not hiding it. (chuckles) You want to know the name?

THERAPIST: No, no, no! But I don’t know; there was something to that.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I guess I am protective of her, yeah. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, what are you protecting in this instance?

CLIENT: Uh... I thought I was protecting my new narrative. But...

THERAPIST: Well, if you were protecting your new narrative, you’d be showing off where she goes.

CLIENT: Hmm. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: “Look how spoiled she is! She goes, you know, to the Ritz Carlton!” [00:38:00]

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckles) The Ritz! (ph) (chuckles) No, not that fancy! It’s not that fancy. It’s fancy, just because I don’t go to a gym and she does; that’s all. (chuckles) (pause) Yeah, I don’t know what I was protecting, just was really protecting her. Maybe that actually, it’s that victim’s narrative that’s kicking in, that’s actually at the base of it, where I feel like she is a victim and she would once again be a victimized if you judge her. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: But why would I be judging her for going to a fancy gym?

CLIENT: I guess because, you know, she doesn’t have money for rent, but she’s going to a gym?

THERAPIST: How do you feel about that? [00:38:53]

CLIENT: I like, would feel, you know, it’s like conflicted. I’d want (sighs) on one level, I feel (yawns and excuses) I feel happy, like you know, she’s spoiled and you know like, I feel funny about it. But then, at another level like, “What? So irresponsible!” (chuckles) But I think I’m mostly okay with it. I’m happy that she’s doing something that she likes, even though it might be foolish like, unpractical at an economic level. (pause) I guess at the heart of it, I am very just like, protective of her and like, I feel like she is a child and needs my protection (chuckles). (therapist responds) Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I feel that what you’re trying to protect her from most is your own feelings about her.

CLIENT: Probably, yeah. (pause) My own feelings? (therapist affirms) Like what are they, in this instance? [00:40:16]

THERAPIST: You’re unhappy about her choices. (client affirms) I mean, you’ve, on the one hand, you felt like, “It is good that she does something good for herself.” On the other hand, she’s asking you for financial help and doing something that’s, that you couldn’t afford to do.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it is, you know, it does conflict, it’s a conflict, but I want the generous side of me to, you know, to take over. (therapist responds) (pause) I want to have a generous side. (chuckles)

[pause 00:41:00 to 00:41:24]

THERAPIST: I think the side of your mother that you have a lot of strong feelings about, and anger, is the way she can be entitled to things.

CLIENT: Hmm. Like what things?

THERAPIST: Like, your money for rent. And I think like, the gym goes along with that. (client responds) That you want her to have good things on the one hand, and that’s the part of you that wants, that feels it’s generous. But on the other hand, you’re angry that she feels entitled to things, and sometimes at your expense, quite literally.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, that’s what I hate about other people, how they feel entitled. (chuckles) (therapist responds) But I am trying to be generous. (chuckles) Shouldn’t I feel entitled?

THERAPIST: To other people’s money? [00:42:29]

CLIENT: No. (chuckles) Not to other people’s money.

THERAPIST: Because it depends on what you feel entitled to do.

CLIENT: I don’t think we have any more time, right? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Are you wanting to stop?

CLIENT: No, I’m just like, that that’s going to bring up a whole new chapter. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, we’re going to need to stop in like, a couple of minutes, but why don’t you start and we can then pick it up on Monday, unless you really don’t want to.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, it’s this thing about money is a giant thing with me. (therapist responds) I feel... I do it, but it’s not like it goes unnoticed. Every single time Chris pays for something, I feel bad. I feel bad making this new guy buy me stuff and... making him buy me stuff and him volunteering to buy me stuff. Every single time he pays for like, a meal or something, I just feel bad, and despite the fact that, you know, I do things for both of them, different things, you know. So... (chuckles) (aside: “My knee is so big. (sighs) Drops on the floor...” end of aside) [00:43:44]

THERAPIST: Right. Because it’s about resources, of lack thereof. It’s about owing, indebtedness (client affirms), entitlement. It’s wrapped up in a lot of different, very deep psychologic meaning.

CLIENT: It’s like power, dynamics, too.

THERAPIST: (affirms) And you definitely see this new guy (who has no name, by the way), you see this new guy (client chuckles) as very powerful in that way.

CLIENT: Yeah, I try not to. I’m really trying not to.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Because then I won’t be able to see him at all, and I don’t want that. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You don’t want to be with someone who’s powerful?

CLIENT: I do. I think that’s what attracts me to him. But I want power, too.

THERAPIST: (pause) So you don’t feel powerful by association to him? You feel competitive?

CLIENT: I try not to think about it, but with Chris, yeah, I feel, I have felt power by association, and then hated that. Then I just felt competitive.

THERAPIST: We do need to stop for today. I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Yes. See you Monday. Have a good weekend!

THERAPIST: Thank you!

CLIENT: (pause) All this stuff!

THERAPIST: Bye-bye!

END TRANSCRIPT