TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in.

Long pause, settling in.

CLIENT: I was curious about something you said last time. I don’t know which guy it refers to, you said things that when you feel power by association.

THERAPIST: inaudible [00:02:09]

CLIENT: I was curious about that, it’s not that I don’t feel it, I guess I would deny feeling that, I would be like “Oh no, totally not, never” you know? And I was just wondering how do you feel that way or allow yourself to feel that way and what are the limits you know?, because I would be very afraid that I am going to abuse it.

THERAPIST: How? How would you abuse it?

CLIENT: I don’t know, like in my childhood there was a little incident. I think I was like 11 or 12 or something and I was just hanging out or 10 maybe. I was hanging out with my friend she was a few years younger, she lived in this large bungalow. This is Nepal. She lived in this large bungalow and there (inaudible) [00:03:21] and I was, my parents and I we were renting like a small room in like an annex of another bungalow that was next door to her. And these, a group of people were walking by in the street these are eunuchs (sp?) [00:03:46] their like either castrated men or…

THERAPIST: Oh, eunuch’s?

CLIENT: Yes, hermaphrodites or whatever. Their sexuality is (sp) [00:04:00] their both or neither. So they live in a community by themselves and they earn money by begging, performing dances or singing at functions and stuff. But anyway, so they were walking by and my friend and I were standing, (soft voice – what happened) outside the bungalow and, “what happened” (again in soft voice), I can’t remember exactly. It’s fuzzy now.

CLIENT: I don’t know what, someone said something from their group, they wanted something and I just had spent an afternoon playing with her, with my friend and they and I said to them, “Oh yeah, first you have to if you want this whatever it was they were asking for or saying, if you want this or you want to be like us first you have to make, first you have to build a big bungalow like we have. This is totally uncharacteristic of me, I think. [00:05:38]

CLIENT: I feel like I’ve always been the sympathetic type who always, now for sure I identify with the underdog, the have not’s, and this and that. But that was like a very uncharacteristic moment and people and I think my friends cousin were also laughing at me and they went and told the adults what I said and maybe they laughed at me too. I don’t remember any of them acting surprised. So I think I may have suppressed the rest of it. [00:06:22]

CLIENT: I didn’t come from the same economic background as my friend. For some reason I said that, I identified with her as if I also lived in a big bungalow and I was telling off these poor people, like look what I have, I’m so rich and you’re so poor. Something that these rich kids had already done to me by the way, they would be very mean to me. Not my friend, but other kids, actually the kids who I was renting the house from.

THERAPIST: That you were renting a house from when you were a kid?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I think I have told you about this girl, we had something sexual going on; when I was 11 or 12.

THERAPIST: And she would make fun of you?

CLIENT: No, yea!, with my mom, like she was close to my mom. I think I told you that. But she and her brother would definitely make fun of what little money I had. Yea, they were ruthless, very, very, bad experiences. I was definitely made to feel and know my place. In that group, because you know my mom was a teacher and my dad when he was working was a teacher as well. [00:08:06]

CLIENT: These guys I think they were business men. Their parents were businessmen, and their parents, and they had a big bungalow, and they had a garden with a swing in it and we were just renting out one room. But that was really uncharacteristic of me and I remember I was very ashamed of that morning, of telling off of these people who had even less than me at that moment when I felt good or I felt included in my friends company. Most of the time I wouldn’t, I would constantly field attention, she had a lot of attention and I didn’t and we would hang out at her place or whatever and like her grandma would make me massage her feet (giggling) . We wouldn’t exchange gifts on holidays. One time, the one day they did give us a box of sweets, like her grandma had walked up the stairs and she was like here you go, here’s your present! And I would like run down the stairs and get it, it’s like you’re totally an equal. Knowing my place, that it’s lower and that I have less and that I have less power and less whatever. [00:10:04]

THERAPIST: How long did you live with them?

CLIENT: I can’t remember. It was in the same city, different area; three or four years, on and off.

THERAPIST: What do you mean “on and off”? You moved back and forth?

CLIENT: I can’t remember. (nervous giggle)

THERAPIST: If you’ll excuse me a minute, I’m just going to get a box of tissues.

CLIENT: Yea!

Long pause – Sirens in background.

CLIENT: Do you think I was traumatized by that experience?

THERAPIST: Do you think you were?

CLIENT: I don’t know, what does traumatized mean? I don’t want to abuse that word or over use it. (nervous gigging)

THERAPIST: So were you renting a room in the house they lived in or different than them.

CLIENT: It was a total residential community, bungalows. The whole neighborhood was like that and then these two families I think they had the same sir name or three families, I don’t know how they were related I think they were like remotely related, I’m not sure. And in one of the bungalows it had like a garage, it was like gated, the whole thing was gated and then there’s a garage and on top of the garage there are rooms with a bathroom, kitchen and we rented that. My dad found that place and we ended up there.

THERAPIST: Where did come from before you lived there?

CLIENT: From a different part of the city, a much older part of the city. We had to leave that because of the riots. That was where my mom basically grew up and where I grew up, the first six, seven years (siren in back rest of sentence inaudible) [00:12:35]

THERAPIST: What were the riots about?

CLIENT: A big thing in 91, 92 between religions. So this was like everywhere in Nepal.

THERAPIST: But some areas were less affected than others?

CLIENT: Yea, but my city wasn’t so. It was more affected by it.

THERAPIST: Do you remember the riots? Were you scared?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Did you see violence?

CLIENT: There was a curfew, so not that much, but in the newspapers yes. My Dad was too scared to live in that neighborhood, the previous neighborhood, because it we were one of the few Nepalese families, so he was scared to live there.

THERAPIST: And this house that you went to after was it safer there? Was it more removed?

CLIENT: Yes.

long pause

CLIENT: I wasn’t allowed to play with any of the kids from the first neighborhood. I didn’t really have any friends. Except at school, I don’t even remember what that was like, the first five, six years in school. What kind of social interactions I had in school, I don’t remember. But then also, I faintly remember knowing that this is a rich girl, look at her clothes. She’s always wearing some fancy new ready-made outfit. Whereas I would wear things, frocks my mom would stitch. And that was ok and I think that was very good. Now politically I think it’s good. Then when we moved to this new area, there were kids, and in the same complex. No one like my age exactly, but this girl that I was friends with, two years younger or maybe more. And then this girl whose like reaching puberty early. [00:15:16]

CLIENT: And then her brother was (inaudible, too low) [00:15:25] that was the first time that I had friends.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Before that, no friends?

CLIENT: Not really no.

THERAPIST: Who did you spend time with?

CLIENT: Books, my Mom.

THERAPIST: Did you not meet anyone in school before that?

CLIENT: I really don’t remember about those years.

THERAPIST: Sneezing. “Excuse me” I think it’s just allergies.

CLIENT: Yea, I get that too. (giggles)

CLIENT: Something like power by association (sp?) [00:16:18] I feel like conflicted about it because of these experiences I feel. I go back to these experiences and I worry and I wonder how much do I associate with in that moment, that wasn’t my bungalow. I was just standing in front of it. I just spent a few hours inside.

long pause, nose blow.

CLIENT: I feel like that’s a metaphor for things now you know. Like with Chris (sp?) This guy that I like; what does this mean, you spend a few hours with someone and it depends on what you’re doing or doing or obviously conversation isn’t sex, is it. How intimate you are or how connected you are. Or maybe it’s the three years you’ve spent with him. How much of their stuff can you lay claim on or should you, to feel powerful by association. [00:17:51]

CLIENT: I don’t know, is that a concrete answer or should I have a concrete answer? And it also depends on where I am. When I’m in Nepal, I definitely feel the need for some lonely (sp?) comment because I feel like I don’t have any other (inaudible) [00:18:19] otherwise. I mean it’s true. It’s an objective truth you could say. And he said it himself, when we were talking about what happened in India this summer when we were with that guy (sp?) [00:18:37] you know, I’d been left alone in a much smaller town for a couple of nights, for many more, and nothing happened to me. And I was like, maybe the people there are nicer, they’re rural (sp?) and they have more values, and then I am like well, I don’t know about that, but you were there as my you know almost wife, you know you had a man with you there, that’s why nothing happened to you. Here you didn’t and you kind of made it a point to let them know you’re single. So there you go. [0019:19]

CLIENT: I mean that is kind of an objective truth and then in context.

THERAPIST: That a woman is powerless when, on her own.

CLIENT: Yea. And of course you can site that intellectually what you’re writing about and stuff. And maybe in the streets you can protest but in unpractical situations you know when you have to get somewhere and get some work done. Normally, you can’t pick despite of. Your personal safety is your biggest concern. [00:20:04]

CLIENT: So in that sense I’m like ok so it’s not even just power by association it has to be like, I need an association, I need a man, a male escort. All of my friends we talk about this and if that’s the case that’s the thing to be done. Or, you bear the consequences or you develop a thick skin or something, I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Well, I don’t want to be too concrete about it because you’re talking about a lot of stuff but you don’t live in Nepal anymore.

CLIENT: Yea. But even now, maybe this is a different issue but the whole money thing, you know it was a gigantic issue between me and Chris (sp?) and I still feel wrong, accepting stuff, gifts or like going out to dinner and not paying my share. Pause (inaudible) [00:21:28] smaller you know, scared.

THERAPIST: Well, and yet you used to pay for most of your expenses for the two of you.

CLIENT: I paid the rent. I think that maybe power was included in certain places. It’s not like Chris (sp?) never pulled out his credit card, I mean he had a huge debt on his credit card. He did pay for stuff. I mean not like equally in the rent but.. Sigh..

pause

CLIENT: I have thought about it a lot. I mean I don’t actively think about it, but at that moment I feel that like going out on dates and having the guy pull out his wallet and pay the whole time.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you’re taking something from him?

CLIENT: I feel, maybe again, this is not power by association (sp? inaudible, too fast too low) makes the whole transaction but like [00:23:25] I feel it’s like a transaction you know. Like I am weaker or smaller because I can’t pay my share, I mean I could but I choose not to, and I feel bad about making that choice. Like you have more and I have less. (nervous giggle)

CLIENT: It’s nice to feel like I’m back, because I’m like a child again, I think that’s what I like. I didn’t really realize till now that that really affected me. Moving into this new area, where the kids where so horrible you know, and made me feel weak constantly, like daily. They had this dog and I was so scared of it. One day he was just chasing me and I thought he would bite me. I didn’t really have experience with dogs then. He was just chasing me and barking like no one did anything, everyone just stood still and he just chased me and I ran like a crazy person. I felt really humiliated. I was a lot of humiliation, that’s the right word. And then I would do these really back-handed things. Like I would steal from them, steal so like my friend’s mom; which friendthe almost puberty teenager, friends of my mom. Her mom was running a little boutique from the house. [00:25:41]

She had tailors and she would stitch dresses for people and the fabrics would be beautiful and lovely and they would just, and the remainder of these fabrics would just be put in bags and kept in this balcony that we kind of shared with them. Our kitchen door opened into the balcony and they’re back doors opened into the balcony and that’s where they kept all these, so I would just go and take these, the discards of these fabrics and we had a sewing machine to so I would try and stitch garments for my Barbie dolls.

CLIENT: That women would get very upset, I can’t remember if she specifically said, don’t take these but, maybe I did all this so (inaudible) [00:26:36] I can’t remember now. They would call that stealing and that I was stealing. One time I had taken a really beautiful piece of something and brought it back and to my place and these kids came over, my friend and her elder brother they came over and she she’s stolen this and we have to conduct a search in your house right now. My mom was there and she was like whatever. I asked if she remembered. It was like they were the police and they had a search warrant or something and they searched the whole house or something, I don’t know if they found anything to prove that I was the thief. It was humiliating you know. [00:27:30]

THERAPIST: Did you steal, do you think because you were angry?

CLIENT: I don’t know, just jealous. I don’t know. As a kid I don’t know how much thought I put into it except that that’s pretty and I want it and I’m going to take it. (nervous giggle)

CLIENT: I’ve stolen other things too. I’ve stolen a book from my school library. I loved that book. (nervous giggle)

THERAPIST: What was it?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: What was the book?

CLIENT: I don’t remember, but it had like pictures. I remember this one was about the shoe maker, that fairy tale about the shoemaker, the elves and the shoemaker. But maybe that was one I actually checked out instead of stealing it, but I can’t be sure. (nervous giggle) [00:28:34]

CLIENT: But yea, I remember the constant humiliation from these kids. Will I ever get over that or will I always go back to that every time a guy pays for me.

THERAPIST: So there’s an element of humiliation in it, feeling like you’re lesser than?

CLIENT: Yea.

CLIENT: It colors the whole, a big chunk of the evening. Friday night we went out on a date and he paid for dinner and then he said ok, you pay for dessert. But we just went to this place and had drinks, it just felt weird. I looked at the price of the wine, it was ridiculous for me. Some wines were like $25 a glass (giggle) I could purchase three bottles of wine from the store for that much money (laughing). I was like Oh God, will I have to pay for this, but I didn’t. I just felt really dirty and yucky or something that he just pulled out his card and paid for it, and whatever. It felt like, I just felt odd about it the whole time. When you’re standing there in the restaurant, it was a weird place. People were eating on tables and then there was this giant table where they in the mornings the butcher uses and then in the evenings they just have people standing around that table, thinking they just come for drinks. [00:30:59]

CLIENT: I just felt on display the whole bloody time and like awkward and out of place.

THERAPIST: You didn’t feel like you belonged there?

CLIENT: Yea.

CLIENT: I guess I was just having flash backs. Last night we went there, he would take me to something similar, like an expensive restaurant where he orders a (sp?) [00:31:37] the bill was $150.00 and I was like, what?! (laughing) I feel very uncomfortable in those situations. I feel like everyone is looking at me and thinking where in the hell is she coming from. Oh yea she is just his charity case or she looks somewhat pretty, so she is just going to be someone he is going to fuck at night. It just feels like all of those thoughts go in my head. And I just feel ridiculous. [00:32:19]

CLIENT: Because there’s truth In it you know. And there was truth in it.

THERAPIST: In what?

CLIENT: In the attraction to Graham (sp?) I was his whatever, charity case. It was like a transaction. He did expect sex afterwards, and when he didn’t get it he didn’t even care that we had been friends for 10 years.

(long pause)

CLIENT: Sometimes I feel like that’s how it happens, I think people don’t think highly of me or they think a certain way and then I panic or I do something stupid, or maybe I don’t even do something stupid, but it just ends up that way that I realize they do think exactly what I was afraid they’d think and so my fears are confirmed and that becomes a traumatic incident and I fast and going forward I take that fear with me and then it forms some of those situations. [00:34:13]

CLIENT: Like that thing with the daughter of that old man in India. Whatever she said, I was already afraid somewhere in the back of my head that those were the things that I was afraid of. Oh I hope people don’t think of me as Chris’s girlfriend. I hope no one says you’re not really an artist or you know whatever. Where is your stuff that you have produced? What have you done? Where are all those works? and she said exactly those things and in fact, much worse ones too. Oh yea, you’re a con artist, You don’t really deserve to be friends with people like us.

THERAPIST: This was after you talked to her about her dad?

CLIENT: Yes, Belinda.

THERAPIST: It was a contact sport though?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: She was enraged with you.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: I’m not saying she was justified but she was enraged.

CLIENT: Yea.

CLIENT: I guess I’ve disregarded the contacts but the thing is my head, my stupid head is like you have reasons to be afraid, you think people are going to think this way and they do. You know. So like I don’t know, It’s good to be afraid than to sit and not do anything? I don’t know. I feel a (sp?) now [00:36:10]

THERAPIST: You feel a?

CLIENT: Woolly.

THERAPIST: Woolly?

CLIENT: A woolly head (sp?) giggles [00:36:14]

THERAPIST: I was thinking there was definitely a context she felt provoked. And you’re saying, see people can think really bad thoughts of you, not just bad thoughts, a particular type of bad thoughts, but it’s in the context of being provoked.

CLIENT: Yea. I should always remember context huh?

CLIENT: But then there’s a context with Graham (sp?) also then?

THERAPIST: Yes, I know less about Graham (sp?) but yes, absolutely.

CLIENT: What is that context?

THERAPIST: You guys had a particular kind of relationship together. It wasn’t like you just met him and (inaudible) [00:37:10] his expectations.

CLIENT: Yes, so he didn’t get any, so he was gonna be mean.

THERAPIST: But that’s who he is.

CLIENT: He’s mean, yes, he is mean.

CLIENT: Yes, I mean is that what being selfish is all about, or self-centered? What other people do, it affects me so badly because I internalize it so much. If someone says you are bad, I think you are right, I am horrible and then I just drag myself down. Maybe instead of that I should understand why they are saying what they are saying. Why did they say that I am bad?

THERAPIST: Well to take it even one step before everything. You find people who feel that way about you. It’s a very self-selective group.

CLIENT: No, really? Why would I want to be friends with people who think badly of me?

THERAPIST: Oh, good question.

CLIENT: Are you saying that in my childhood I chose these friends?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Maybe I did. Maybe I did. Maybe I sought them out despite because of how horrible they made me feel. (laughing) Maybe I was messed up way back then. [00:38:33]

CLIENT: Maybe since then, I have only been seeking people like that. (laughing) I feel like I seek people who, I don’t know, maybe challenge me? I don’t know. I never really thought about the kinds of people I seek out you know.

THERAPIST: Well the woman whose parents you stayed with over the summer, you describe her as very high and mighty. Said she treated you very high and mighty because of the kind of person she is.

CLIENT: Yea, but we weren’t even supposed to have that personal interaction. It was supposed to be professional contact.

THERAPIST: Oh please.

CLIENT: What?!

THERAPIST: You don’t think that the kind of person someone is impacts how they interact with people in general? Plus it sounds like you were friendly with her.

CLIENT: Look, I didn’t want to be friendly with her. She was the one who was like oh come over, for dinner and stuff.

THERAPIST: You can stay away from people like that. [00:39:42]

CLIENT: Yea, should have huh? Ok, I’ll go back three years from now and refuse her invitation. (laughing) See that’s the thing, and we were young, Chris (sp?)And I was young, but I said we didn’t know. Come say no to high and mighty people or they’ll be offended or they’ll cut you off.

THERAPIST: Cool! Then you don’t have to deal with them!

CLIENT: Then how do you get ahead?

CLIENT: Like at that time I encouraged Chris (sp) to hang out with her because she was on his advisory board. Chris (sp?) also was the one who said, Oh your like one recommendation from her and I can get scholarships that don’t necessarily go to the economist and stuff. That’s why I encouraged that.

CLIENT: Time is done.

THERAPIST: No, we still have a few minutes. Do you feel like the only people who can help you, can support you and help advance you are people who look down on you? And think so highly of themselves?

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Because you were saying, well how else do you get ahead? But that implies that you have to associate with people who have that kind of attitude.

CLIENT: I don’t know.

CLIENT: I don’t know how to think about this at all. Which relationships should I think about?

THERAPIST: It seems like you have plenty of people in your life who are very supportive, and also very advanced to that don’t look down on you or don’t think of themselves as superior.

CLIENT: Yea.

CLIENT: But, I am so confused. Am I not talking about a moment? Or certain contexts that make these people seem high and mighty?

THERAPIST: I don’t know. I mean the woman that you described, this woman whose family you stayed at sounds like she was, that was her personality. You describe her pretty consistently as sort of acting that way.

CLIENT: Yea. But like these dates or whatever.

THERAPIST: Are they your perception? Absolutely.

CLIENT: Yea. So, am I thinking of men who are like high and mighty and look down on me?

THERAPIST: I don’t know. It seems like with some of them you do, no all of them.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Some of them it does seem that way. And some of them like Victor (sp?) [00:42:44] you know, who is sort of high and mighty and particular emotionally you know, this particular kind of high and mighty. And it seems like for some of them; it’s your perception, your being a charity case for them. It doesn’t sound like you feel the guy you’re seeing now treats you as a charity case.

CLIENT: I hope not. (giggle) [00:43:05]

CLIENT: I guess I’ll describe a context in which I feel that way. Context I guess is different than the personality of these people.

THERAPIST: Well I think we’re talking about both things. Does that seem true? Does that seem right?

CLIENT: Yea. I guess I was trying to connect this with my childhood experience. I don’t know if I should. Next time we meet, we should, If I should continue down that way. (giggles)

THERAPIST: Your trying to figure if you sought these kids out initially is that it?

CLIENT: Or just trying to understand how much power I should allow myself to feel with the association and what is that whole dynamic. Like how do I interact with people who have more than I do and how do I feel good about myself in relation to them. How will I not fall into the trap of always thinking their high and might because they have more, I have less.

THERAPIST: That’s a very good question. We do need to stop, but I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: Ok, great.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT