TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[patient enters at 6:30]

CLIENT: I fell down on Monday when I was running. So it kind of—it made me a little sad. [chuckles] A [peaceful? 6:50] injury. It’s not that bad, but I just felt low because of it. [pause]

THERAPIST: Low how?

CLIENT: I don’t know, just sad and depressed.

THERAPIST: Because you fell?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know, I was like, “Oh, I’m doing so well with our running.” And I won’t be able to for like a few days or something. I don’t know. It was like God was trying to punish me or something, whatever. I mean, I guess I was curious why like a small physical injury can affect my mood. But it did. It shouldn’t, you know. [pause] And my mom came right over and helped me. So it’s not like—you know, it’s not even like a sign of all our blues. I guess it’s maybe I’m also sad because of other things. Like I didn’t hear back from this guy, so I was just—that made me think. And now I’m like, I don’t think I’m ready for a relationship. Or definitely not a new relationship.

THERAPIST: I’m sorry, you didn’t hear back. I’m not understanding the context, you didn’t hear back from a guy?

CLIENT: This new guy.

THERAPIST: You didn’t hear back from him from when? I don’t understand. [9:00]

CLIENT: Oh, no. So he work—he goes to Ohio during the week and comes back on the weekend. And I don’t know, just—we don’t talk on the phone, so that makes me anxious or insecure.

THERAPIST: But it sounds like—you didn’t hear back, it’s like you called him and he hasn’t called you back, is that what you mean?

CLIENT: No, no.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I just didn’t hear from him on Monday and so I just felt insecure. Yeah. I just kept thinking, “Oh, I’m not a priority,” and, you know. Despite, you know, I [texting him? 9:46], “You know, even if you’re busy you can kind of find the time to send a text or something.” I don’t know. I just kept—keep on [bearing and go back to?] my previous relationships where we were talking on the phone all the time and we were very connected. So I’m like why—I don’t think it would [throw that off?], that connection, that love. [pause] [10:30]

But I guess from Monday, just that conversation about power by association. I don’t know. I guess I should have pursued that more, right? It seems to be a fundamental issue for me. [pause] I guess I do think about how like being part of a whole, and being like a contributing member of a community. Only now it’s starting. I mean, I only started doing this now. I mean, and this is healthy and positive. So I’m hoping that this will help me to think more positively about how I can be part of the whole without wanting to be outside of it or—you know, like that—because what I was describing on Monday, like that whole experience with my neighborhood children, like renting out a little room in that complex of bungalows, and very much feeling like the underdog, and feeling like—not just feeling but actually being lonely, right? I mean, didn’t you think like that whole like search, as if they had a search warrant. And they were kids, they were like 13, 14, and they—what I felt horrible about was they could order around like 40 years olds, my parents. Or I don’t know if my dad was there. Certainly my mom, you know, who had to step aside and who had to bear the horrible guilt or whatever of being told that her daughter was a thief, you know.

So that whole thing about being humiliated constantly, and therefore wanting to be an outsider. And yet at that moment when, you know, that posse of—you know, sort of passing by, kind of a weird odd moment that I have not been able to forget, you know, and forgive myself for, for saying that, you know. So overstepping my bounds and like— Yeah, I don’t—what do you call that? What was that? What is the—what are the adjectives for it, that behavior of mine?

THERAPIST: I don’t know. It was your experience. [14:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, but like I don’t know, how do you understand it, like what I said to them? Was I experiencing power by association, or…

THERAPIST: You were putting them down.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don’t know if that’s power by association.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because that’s not power. People don’t humiliate people if they feel powerful. You don’t need—if you really feel powerful you don’t need to humiliate people.

CLIENT: Yeah, I almost like—I wish I could understand it. I’m just so ashamed of it that I don’t— I haven’t even tried to understand it. [pause] Well, what did I mean, “You have to be able to construct, own, purchase a bungalow,” anyway? What did that mean when I said that? Was I feeling good about myself? Was I feeling insecure? What was it? [long pause] Yeah, I need adjectives. I need them for understanding this. [16:00]

THERAPIST: Why do you feel—like are you in a mental block? Or what’s happening?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Like if someone else would tell me, “This is what you were feeling,” and then I can accept their definition, or their feeling about it. Not just blindly accept it, but you know, understand it myself. Then I feel like I can maybe start to forgive myself for that and like put it behind me or something.

THERAPIST: What would you be forgiving yourself for?

CLIENT: For whatever it is that I did that I don’t even understand what I was doing. You know. I have not thought about it in this, you know, constructive way. [pause] Maybe I was trying to impress someone? Myself? My friend? Maybe I thought that that’s what she wanted to hear. Or maybe there was a choice for me, or like either identify with the outsider or the insider, and I at that moment chose to remain inside. I mean, it was a disguise. [18:00]

THERAPIST: It was a disguise?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean like it was a lie. I mean, they didn’t know who I was, right. They were strangers, they didn’t know who I was. I could have been anyone. I mean, I stepped out of the bungalow. Who was to say that I didn’t live there and own the whole damn thing, you know? No one. I mean, when I walk out, how are they going to know that I’m living in the small little hovel in it, or the entire place, you know? [pause] So I had like a choice I suppose. I wish I’d remember the whole fucking episode, that would help. But I don’t. But all I can do is guess, and all I can guess is that they probably were soliciting. You know, they were probably like they wanted to perform or something, so that we would give them money, or you know. And we didn’t let them in, or we didn’t let them talk to our parents, or you know. And that— Yeah. Should I keep going or more on, move away?

THERAPIST: You’re having a hard time taking charge of the session today.

CLIENT: [chuckles] Yeah.

THERAPIST: It seems like you’re wanting direction.

CLIENT: Yes. [laughs] Is that what you expect, you expect me to take charge? [20:00]

THERAPIST: That question is [weird?].

CLIENT: [chuckles]

THERAPIST: It’s like you’re feeling very insecure.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I go through—I go through phases like. But yeah, going back to that, like that’s what I can think of, that maybe I wanted to remain inside, I wanted to feel for once what it was like to pretend, you know. Because here was like complete strangers seeing me with the rest of the kids. Who knows? I mean, maybe I was wrong, maybe they already could tell that I didn’t belong with the rest of them because maybe my clothes were different. I don’t even know if they were that different. But maybe they were. Or maybe they weren’t and I thought I could be anyone, whatever I wanted to, and I could be rich, you know, like my friend.

And maybe I wanted to be closer to her. I mean, I loved her, you know, like we were very close. She cried so much when I was leaving for Istanbul, when I was moving away from the city. So despite like the social and economic differences there was a lot of affection. So I guess maybe I wanted to impress her, to be closer to her than [the economics? 21:54], you know. So even though I ideologically would have identified with them—as much ideology as a child could have, you know—like it was to identify with her, and I felt horrible about that ever since. But why did you say what would I forgive myself for? You don’t see that there is something there? [22:20]

THERAPIST: I don’t know what it was that you feel you did wrong, I’m not sure.

CLIENT: Well, I feel very bad about it, so—

THERAPIST: You feel you insulted them or put them down, is that it?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. Like I feel horrible about myself that I could do such a thing. Like I feel like a hypocrite, or you know. And a liar, and you know. Yeah, anyone who puts the downtrodden down is like the biggest evildoer in my books, you know. So. I mean, I can—as a writer I can see the gray, and you know, I can identify with the wrongdoer, evildoer. But when it comes down to a black and white thing, you know, right and wrong, that’s the quick judgment I would make is that that’s wrong, you know. I guess I must have wanted approval so badly in that moment that I just—the words just came out. [pause]

Yeah. I don’t know, I guess that period in my life was very— And they were really a few years, like maybe three. Maybe less. My mom would remember. But I guess they affected me profoundly. Your thinking really [is it?/isn’t? 24:04] like that, you know, like almost every day could have that effect. [sighs] So I guess I feel like I can’t really allow myself to like feel power by association, you know. [24:30]

THERAPIST: Well, it’s hard if you feel power by association is against someone.

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] Well, when people have power it’s like, “Okay, so when are you going to abuse it?” You know, like. And that’s what I’m thinking. Like when I was with my women’s group last week—I think it was last weekend—and I had that kind of flare up for whatever convoluted reasons, maybe that was also what I think, that when I see everyone that’s being so big and powerful, and me being so small. I guess maybe I place myself in that position of the one that they can harm because of their power. I don’t know.

It’s so funny, like that’s what is funny. Because like when I’m feeling that way, insecure and all, it’s so intense, you know. Like in that instance like all the goodwill, all the good things people have done and said—and done, you know, done—they just cease to exist, I cease to see them, I become completely blind from them, and all I feel is just hurt and like scared and angry and bitter. And then I have no control over what comes out of my mouth. [laughs] Or my thoughts, you know. And I know there’s absolutely no chance of me being—of me contributing or anything like that. [pause] [27:45]

I don’t know, I guess I want to figure out some kind of antidote to this feeling of, “Oh, you have everything and I have nothing.” I don’t know, is the antidote to think I have stuff to, you know? [pause] It’s so funny, I feel like all these children and their judgments really are responsible. And maybe I shouldn’t put it so harshly. But I feel like that’s what that is. Like as a child like of course I had things I was proud of, and wanted to look at and be with, you know, at home. But they were put down viciously by these people, you know. So it was like a poison, you know. Like I didn’t want to go home and look at these things because they weren’t good enough.

THERAPIST: I think it was still multi-determined. Because absolutely the way these children treated you had an impact on how you feel. But, you know, certainly your dad contributed to it too in terms of feeling kind of lonely and humiliated and hence wanting to lash out on others, and I think your mom felt that way too. So you were already predisposed to that kind of feeling that way, and then it was just sort of intensified by the way you were treated by these kids.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, another way of looking at it too is kids are very good at picking up each other’s vulnerabilities, and that may have been something that they saw in you.

CLIENT: Yeah. [pause] It’s kind of scary. [30:00]

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: Just like their whole life was just going to pass, you know. I mean, I was thinking this last night coming back from class. Like I’m thinking, why do I always focus on the negative? Why do always focus on what I don’t have? You know, because there is actually no way that you can build a life if you think of what you don’t have. Most of the stuff—all of life is all about building on what you already have, you know. And like specifically in terms of writing, writing is all about that. You start with a small idea, but you build on it. You have a draft and it’s messy, then you revise it, revise it, revise it. You don’t just write ten different stories in the first draft. No one does that. And all of life is all about that, relationships, you know. Like you don’t just toss them out. You fix things.

And I feel like this relates back to my childhood where I’m like, “Yeah, we can spend 20 rupees on firecrackers, but…” And, you know, like how fucking evil of that stupid boy and that girl to like ruin that for me, you know. Yes, you can spend 500 rupees, because, you know, you’re a fucking capitalist. And your showdown is going to be so much brighter and bigger and louder than my little showdown with the firecrackers, but… So all the joy that I was going to get is completely gone because of the way you humiliated me for how little—you know, because my bag was tiny and yours was gigantic. And just because my Barbie doll couldn’t move her arms up and down or whatever. Because mine costed less and yours didn’t. And my frocks are, you know, less expensive. But all the joy that I was going to get looking at the things I already had, you know, just completely poisoned, completely ruined. I just feel like it’s high time I fixed this, you know. [32:45]

I mean, that’s what joy is, right. Like the stuff you have you can put out and you look at it, and you look at it again, and you look at it again. [pause] I mean, that’s what friends are too, right. You meet them over and over again. [pause] I wish I could go and like beat them up like really, really hard. But I don’t have to, because life has already beaten them. [laughs] It’s true, like two—several years ago, it’s been so long, I went back to my—that town, and they were living in rented apartments. And that girl, a sex worker, was working in a call center in India. Yeah, their businesses failed completely and [laughs] they have nothing now. That made me feel really shocked and scared for them. [sighs] And here I am in therapy, you know, like I said, you know. So it’s like they still have the power. [pause] [35:00]

Then I mean, yeah, definitely my dad’s negativity was far worse than these kids could ever have been. But those were like really the poison years. It’s like I feel like I was in their lair, you know, like—is that how you pronounce it?

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: [chuckles] Like really being chewed slowly, very, very slowly, but being chewed nonetheless. I hated all my stuff because of them. And I think children go through that I guess. You know, like they compare—that’s when they start first comparing, and saying, “Those shoes are really better,” and all that. [pause] I mean, of course I don’t—to some extent I don’t do that. You know, like I have good pretty things and people like them and I feel good about them. But then I think in much more like deeper ways is how I experience this, that I don’t have anything and they have everything. It doesn’t come down to shoes and clothes and dolls, but it comes to other things now I guess. [very long pause, over 2 minutes] [39:00]

What—how to connect this with other things. I wonder you said why do I seek the company of—what was it, superior people, or like high and mighty people?

THERAPIST: People who put you down.

CLIENT: [pause] Yeah. I don’t know if I seek them, right. I don’t know. You’re thinking, am I trying to replace my dad?

THERAPIST: [Yeah?]. Interesting. [pause] [40:00]

CLIENT: I mean, I guess I seek the company of people who have more. I guess that’s a fair statement. I wouldn’t say I seek the company of people who have less. And then you could even say, why do you even look at things that way, have more, have less, people are just people. I mean, this is obviously subconsciously, it’s not like consciously it’s—maybe it is conscious, I don’t know. I mean, I sought—I don’t know if I sought. But like my first boyfriend I’m thinking, you know, he was just an average guy. And there was no like have more, have less. It turned out that he had, you know, this, this and this. Some of it was very useful to me, you know, like the fact that he knew how to drive and fix cars. [chuckles] But he—yeah, he was average. I don’t think I sought him out because he had more. Initially it was just that, you know, he was cute and, you know, he was funny, and we had some chemistry, and that was that. [41:40]

And then I guess I became friends—or sought out the church people because they seemed very passionate and energized, and they were kind, and they had a community. I wouldn’t necessarily say that they put me down. I mean, they did put me down, but like the whole guilt thing. But that came not too much later. But yeah, it did come right away, and it was like also attractive, you know. I hadn’t wallowed in that way before. I definitely enjoyed a lot of the wallowing, like thinking of myself as a sinner, and like convincing myself that I was a sinner. You know, like as a 16, 17 year old finding that, “Oh yeah, all my 17 years I’ve done such sins.” And I was really finding out just like other people’s confessionals would be full of so many other things, like alcoholism, and like womanizing, and drugs, and mine would be like worshipping other gods. [laughs] Or, you know, being unkind to my mom. But I was very convinced that I was definitely like such a bad sinner. So that whole self-flogging was interesting. Maybe I’m a sadist.

But yeah, like after that whole thing was over like seeking Ahmed. I guess I sought him out because he was, you know, intellectual and I hadn’t—and I wanted that and I didn’t have that, so yeah, maybe I could think of him as that, as me seeking what I didn’t have. [pause] Which I think was it concretely or more abstractly? [44:15]

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: I don’t know, I guess in the abstract, like to just generalize, like do I like it when people put me down? I don’t know. I don’t think so. I mean, it is more intense, right, it’s more personal. So I like intense and personal. But it’s weird to think that I get turned on by that, or like—you know, not even turned on, but you know, like I seek it out. But maybe I think that they will help me grow. Not the fact that they put me down, but maybe that they’re able—the constructive criticism. And if not even that then just the fact that they have something I don’t really, open my eyes to something new. So.

I mean, that’s why I keep seeking Chris maybe. You know, like after this weekend when I saw him, it was like he was telling me a few little anecdotes about intellectual things and what he’d read or something, and I was like, “Wow, I’ve missed this so much.” And yes, I mean, so many complicated things that happened in that, you know, microsecond in my head, maybe one of the things that happens is me like flogging myself a little bit, saying, you know, “You’re never going to be as smart as this.” Or, “You’re just totally wasting your life because you’re not with him.” Or like, “You spend two days away from him while he could have enlightened you in this way.”

THERAPIST: Do you still spend a lot of time with him?

CLIENT: Yeah. Not that much really. But yeah, I do see him like four or five days a week, but like just for a few hours.

THERAPIST: That’s a lot of time. It’s all relative, but.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I mean he’s working during the day, I’m working during the day, and yeah.

THERAPIST: We’re going to need to stop.

CLIENT: Oh, sorry.

THERAPIST: No need to apologize.

CLIENT: Okay. [47:00]

THERAPIST: I will see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Yes, see you.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you very much.

CLIENT: I totally lost track of time.

THERAPIST: Take care.

CLIENT: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT